Charicific Valley • The Project: M Charizard General Discussion Thread

[metroid1117]

I usually have a lot of trouble as of late trying to space Dsmash correctly. I was fine in 2.1 (I think) but whenever the range was shortened I've always had trouble spacing it to cover both options. I know that it is sort of like DK's Down b and is incredibly useful, I guess I'm not sure if I need to Wave Smash to space it or if I'm just being silly.

You're right, tech chasing with DSmash isn't nearly as good as it was in 2.1 (which is a good thing IMO, because it was pretty brain-dead in 2.1) because of both the range reduction and the altering of trajectories on the outer hitboxes so that it doesn't meteor all the time. What characters do you have problems tech chasing? It could depend on the tech rolls of the character, since different characters have different tech roll lengths; Sheik's tech rolls, for example, are abnormally long, whereas G&W's tech rolls are horrendously short. Unless the character has an abnormally long tech roll, you should be able to position yourself to cover both options; try going to Training Mode and seeing the range by getting 2 human-controlled characters and moving them closer to you until DSmash hits both of them. JOE! also created an amazing frame data thread that shows just how much range Charizard's DSmash has:

Oh and another thing. I've teen finding that more often than not when I go for Dsmash and space it correctly, they always seem to have just enough time to put up their shield and block it. Or more often than not, if they neutral tech they can act pretty much just as fast as I can and will hit me. I think some of it might be I'm used to reacting instead of predicting, and I also know that there was a time when Zard got a ton of frame advantage off of a Dthrow, so am I just not buffering the input in correctly? Or is it something else? Thanks for your help!

Since teching works like it does in Melee, you might find this thread by Magus helpful; post 2 has a bunch of frame data regarding the invincibility of techs and tech rolls. Standing tech is invincible from frames 1-20 and the animation ends on frame 26, meaning you have 6 frames (21-26) to punish your opponent. According to JOE!, DSmash hits on frames 16-23, so it'll be difficult to punish a standing tech on reaction; since you can't buffer inputs, you kinda have to just commit to covering options with DSmash instead of reacting with DSmash. Also, Charizard's DThrow had less endlag in previous versions, so it's harder to profit off of it now than it was before; I wouldn't recommend using it unless your are confident about your reaction time and/or you're on a platform so your opponent can't get too far from you. But yeah, DThrow -> DSmash probably will only work on lighter characters since the cooldown of throws is dependent on the weight of the character (lighter characters speed up throw animations, making the cooldown less, and the opposite is true for heavier characters; Magus talks about it in the first post of the thread I linked), and even then I'm not sure if it'll work in the first place. IMHO you're better off sticking to jab or regrab after a DThrow.

 

[Heroofhatz]

You are seriously the best Metroid. Thanks for all of the ideas, I'll have a read through the frame data and experiment once I'm done with school and see what I can make up. It seems that in general Bthrow is more useful unless you're on a platform with your opponent, since the tech is a lot easier to read, or you just get free sourspot fair into dair.

Speaking of which, does anyone know if sourspot fair connects into heat wave? I know fair to dair is good, but usually you're onstage when you get that opportunity, thus ending the combo and resetting it to neutral. Or is there another move that connects that I'm unaware of?

Also, quick question, what would you guys say is ideal position of Zard in relation to the other character? Above? Below? Back turned for nair? And what would you say is the least ideal position for Zard and why?

I know I've been asking a lot, but thanks for giving me some advice!

 

[metroid1117]

Don't worry about asking help, I think we're all pretty chill and willing to give advice when we can .

Speaking of which, does anyone know if sourspot fair connects into heat wave? I know fair to dair is good, but usually you're onstage when you get that opportunity, thus ending the combo and resetting it to neutral. Or is there another move that connects that I'm unaware of?

Depending on DI, sourspot FAir can true combo into Heat Wave (at the very least, this is true for Marth around 70-80% in Training Mode). If you're able to land soon enough after the sourspot FAir (like if you fullhopped FAir'd and landed on a platform), you might be able to follow up with UAir or other moves (again, depending on DI and % though).

Also, quick question, what would you guys say is ideal position of Zard in relation to the other character? Above? Below? Back turned for nair? And what would you say is the least ideal position for Zard and why?

Personally, I really like to keep my opponents either above me or above and slightly in front of me when I'm on the ground; Charizard is much faster on the ground than in the air, so my style in the neutral game is more grounded compared to other Charizards like Yomi or Oracle, who like to RAR retreating shffl'd NAirs. This position lets you shark under the opponent with USmash, catch them with dash-canceled jabs, or just chase after them and JC grab for a BThrow.

With regards to worst position, I don't like it when my opponents are below and in front of me; using NAir would require you to do it early so that it'll sweep at that angle when you want it, but that's fairly telegraphed and you can get punished if your opponent waits it out.

 

[Heroofhatz]

Dash canceled jabs? As in crouch cancel out of a dash into a jab? Or is there something I'm missing?

Also, is there any situation that utilt is useful? Besides the few pixels of extra range, up-smash seems superior in almost every way.

Also, is there any way to make Zard's turn animation faster? I've seen Yomi charge as somebody full speed and then just turn on a dime and do a reverse nair. A I just seeing him dash dance or am I crazy?

And what do you think of the practicality of a fast called up air? If it connects, it links almost automatically into the Zard combo (Down b, uair, uair...). Is there a situation it could possibly be useful and/or safe?

 

[metroid1117]

Dash canceled jabs? As in crouch cancel out of a dash into a jab? Or is there something I'm missing?

Yup, you just dash -> crouch -> jab.

Also, is there any situation that utilt is useful? Besides the few pixels of extra range, up-smash seems superior in almost every way.

USmash does more damage and provides more coverage than UTilt, but UTilt has a more vertical trajectory, slightly more vertical reach, is single-hit (so people can't SDI out like they can for USmash), and has less cooldown than USmash. However, because of USmash's greater coverage, USmash generally has more utility for sharking under opponents. I prefer to use UTilt as a combo move if I land a DAir or trap an opponent onto a platform above me.

Also, is there any way to make Zard's turn animation faster? I've seen Yomi charge as somebody full speed and then just turn on a dime and do a reverse nair. A I just seeing him dash dance or am I crazy?

He's jumping out of a turnaround, which isn't possible in Melee but possible in Brawl. Doing an aerial out of a turnaround is known a "reverse aerial rush" (RAR).

And what do you think of the practicality of a fast called up air? If it connects, it links almost automatically into the Zard combo (Down b, uair, uair...). Is there a situation it could possibly be useful and/or safe?

I can see this being used if you read a tech or get-up, but i would use DAir instead of UAir because it has more comboability. However, fastfalled UAir is a good way to extend combos if you jump at an aerial opponent and then fastfall onto a platform.

 

[Nausicaa]

If you can't land the D-Smash off those tech-chases on techs in place, try U-Tilt or Jab, or even D-Tilt.
U-Tilt gets neglected lot it seems around here. Just use it more, and you'll enjoy it.

 

[Heroofhatz]

If you can't land the D-Smash off those tech-chases on techs in place, try U-Tilt or Jab, or even D-Tilt.
U-Tilt gets neglected lot it seems around here. Just use it more, and you'll enjoy it.

The only problem I have with Utilt is that it's sideways rage is pretty bad, and more than that, upsmash can be jump canceled out of a jab and generally hits for a wider range. And the one problem that Utilt has with a neutral tech is that off of a downthrow, Metroid mentioned that you only have 6 frames of frame advantage, and the first frames of Utilt don't become active until at least frame 10, thus your opponent would have to mess up pretty badly to let you hit them like that. Dtilt can suffer from the same problem, but at the same time is good for a tech away next to the ledge if you space it correctly.

He's jumping out of a turnaround, which isn't possible in Melee but possible in Brawl. Doing an aerial out of a turnaround is known a "reverse aerial rush" (RAR).

Also after doing a quick read through the smash wiki it said that you can only RAR a back air, is there anything special or different that needs to be used to make a Nair work?

 

[Heroofhatz]

Also Metroid, do you know if there are going to be any big changes to Zard in 3.0?

 

[GeZ]

Also Metroid, do you know if there are going to be any big changes to Zard in 3.0?

I think it'll be mostly minor changes, or at least, I haven't seen anything when playing against 3.0 Zard.

 

[JOE!]

I'll have to look at it when 3.0 pops out, I have a ton of notes of his moves as of 2.6b, but I have the Frame Data thread on hold till I see what needs to be updated. No point in posting a ton of stuff now for it to only be changed in two days

 

[Heroofhatz]

I'll have to look at it when 3.0 pops out, I have a ton of notes of his moves as of 2.6b, but I have the Frame Data thread on hold till I see what needs to be updated. No point in posting a ton of stuff now for it to only be changed in two days

That's probably a good idea, thanks for all of your help Joe!
Also, do you think you could put out the hurt box data as well when 3.0 is released?

 

[metroid1117]

The only problem I have with Utilt is that it's sideways rage is pretty bad, and more than that, upsmash can be jump canceled out of a jab and generally hits for a wider range. And the one problem that Utilt has with a neutral tech is that off of a downthrow, Metroid mentioned that you only have 6 frames of frame advantage, and the first frames of Utilt don't become active until at least frame 10, thus your opponent would have to mess up pretty badly to let you hit them like that. Dtilt can suffer from the same problem, but at the same time is good for a tech away next to the ledge if you space it correctly.

Keep in mind that the invincibility ends on frame 21 though, so since UTilt becomes active on frame 10, you have roughly 10 frames to react to it if you want to hit them on frame 21 (15 if you're including frame 26, the last frame of invincibility). Regardless, 15 frames isn't very easy to react to IMHO, so I'd prefer covering standing tech with jab or grab if I had to just react to it.

Also after doing a quick read through the smash wiki it said that you can only RAR a back air, is there anything special or different that needs to be used to make a Nair work?

RAR typically just means dashing in a direction, turning around, then jumping during the turnaround animation and moving in the original direction; this lets you maintain momentum in the original direction you were traveling after jumping, something that could not be done in Melee. It most commonly applied to BAirs since you could run, turnaround, then jump and BAir while moving in the direction you were running. I just use it in this context, but you're right, it's technically not a RAR since they're retreating with it; I guess it'd be more appropriately called "jumping out of turnaround".

Also Metroid, do you know if there are going to be any big changes to Zard in 3.0?

Charizard will not receive any big changes. However, I cannot go into detail whether he will or will not receive changes in the first place.

 

[JOE!]

Pressing A + B, then a quartercircle the opposite way he is facing downward, followed by a moonwalk in the other direction lets him mega evolve into Y in 3.0. Doing everything backwards mega's him into X.

 

[metroid1117]

Pressing A + B, then a quartercircle the opposite way he is facing downward, followed by a moonwalk in the other direction lets him mega evolve into Y in 3.0. Doing everything backwards mega's him into X.

People like you are the reason we can't have surprises =/.

(j/k)

 

[Tlock]

- FAir bone invincibility reduced to the duration of the active frames of the hitbox
- Forward throw animation tweaked
- Up B has less hangtime at the apex

I was expecting more love for Charizard honestly.

 

[Heroofhatz]

- FAir bone invincibility reduced to the duration of the active frames of the hitbox
- Forward throw animation tweaked
- Up B has less hangtime at the apex

I was expecting more love for Charizard honestly.

Hey look on the bright side, at least he didn't get nerfed really

 

[ItalianStallion]

I'm actually really stoked about the less hangtime on up-b. That's a big improvement in my eyes.

But yeah, at least he didn't get nerfed, like DDD.

 

[metroid1117]

- FAir bone invincibility reduced to the duration of the active frames of the hitbox
- Forward throw animation tweaked
- Up B has less hangtime at the apex

I was expecting more love for Charizard honestly.

Charizard's biggest problem in 2.6 was (and still is for 3.0) dealing with pressure, so the reduced hangtime on up+B is meant to make it a more viable OoS option. The grounded version had invincibility on start-up in all iterations of Charizard, but the hangtime was so punishable that it never really was a great option for pressure.

 

[ItalianStallion]

Since I can't play right now, what was tweaked about his forward throw animation?

 

[JOE!]

Bowser:
- Flamebreath hitboxes redone. They now start with lower damage but gain damage as they travel, being strongest at the tip. Grounded foes are now pushed down and out of the flames
- Aerial Flamebreath hitboxes have unaltered knockback behavior, but have the scaling damage and no longer flinch at the tip

Wtf, why has Flamethrower gotten no love? That move is way more iconic than Firebreath... Bowser rarely actually breathes fire (he usually shoots fireballs), and probably the 1 thign everyone pictures when they imagine Charizard (Flamethrower) is still just an inferior version?

meh....

 

[ItalianStallion]

Bowser:
- Flamebreath hitboxes redone. They now start with lower damage but gain damage as they travel, being strongest at the tip. Grounded foes are now pushed down and out of the flames
- Aerial Flamebreath hitboxes have unaltered knockback behavior, but have the scaling damage and no longer flinch at the tip

Wtf, why has Flamethrower gotten no love? That move is way more iconic than Firebreath... Bowser rarely actually breathes fire (he usually shoots fireballs), and probably the 1 thign everyone pictures when they imagine Charizard (Flamethrower) is still just an inferior version?

meh....

It's actually not directly inferior. It's super annoying considering how long Charizard's flamethrower lasts. He can stop someone from recovering for a long time.

Picture Zard starting flamethrower as Falcon is trying to up b to the ledge. Falcon is going to eat a lot of damage before the flames get weak enough for him to grab the ledge.

 

[Heroofhatz]

It's actually not directly inferior. It's super annoying considering how long Charizard's flamethrower lasts. He can stop someone from recovering for a long time.

Picture Zard starting flamethrower as Falcon is trying to up b to the ledge. Falcon is going to eat a lot of damage before the flames get weak enough for him to grab the ledge.

Yeah but back hitbox of Nair will gimp guaranteed and also hits below the ledge. Flamethrower is good, but personally I think Zard has better options edge guarding.

 

[JOE!]

Yeah, he can do more damage potentially, except now they 1) buffed Bowser's damage, 2) his does actual KB now, 3) he has the bite at the end 4) he has the flame cancel.

Is it too much to ask to be thrown a bone here since our Flamethrower is vanilla by comparison?

 

[Heroofhatz]

The thing about Bowser having a flame cancel is that he doesn't ever need it, up b on the ground will hog ledges, has a fair amount of priority, and is amazing in pretty much any other way. There would be no reason for him to flame cancel (much like I feel with Zard atm though correct me if I'm wrong).

I would like to have a bite hitbox added though, stops people from SDI'ing through it

 

[Tlock]

Will the increased ceilings not be an indirect nerf to zard as well?

 

[Heroofhatz]

Will the increased ceilings not be an indirect nerf to zard as well?

Well, it will nerf anyone who kills vertically. But Zard is neat because all that means is that he has a little bit more room to fly -> up air. So I would say not.

 

[JOE!]

The thing about Bowser having a flame cancel is that he doesn't ever need it, up b on the ground will hog ledges, has a fair amount of priority, and is amazing in pretty much any other way. There would be no reason for him to flame cancel (much like I feel with Zard atm though correct me if I'm wrong).

I would like to have a bite hitbox added though, stops people from SDI'ing through it

Well, the point being that Bowser *can* flame cancel and Zard can't just seems weird...

 

[Heroofhatz]

Well, the point being that Bowser *can* flame cancel and Zard can't just seems weird...

Wait, are we taking about the ledge flame cancel? Sorry, I must have gotten confused

 

[JOE!]

Flame cancel is when bowser short hops and eliminates all the start-up of breathing fire (land-cancels the beginning animation making it come out on like... frame 2 or somethin lol)

 

[Heroofhatz]

Flame cancel is when bowser short hops and eliminates all the start-up of breathing fire (land-cancels the beginning animation making it come out on like... frame 2 or somethin lol)

So then what did we deem the tech that Yomi came up with when essentially you roll up to the very edge of the ledge facing away from it, then press b and fall to the ledge?

Also I agree that should be a thing now that I understand what is going on

 

[JOE!]

Im not sure, heh. And that is just Zard taking a step back (randomly IMO... he should just be able to spray fire without the big set-up to it) and thus slipping off the edge.

 

[ItalianStallion]

Will the increased ceilings not be an indirect nerf to zard as well?

I would say so, but Zard does kill ridiculously easy off the top, so it's perhaps a deserved nerf. Zard wasn't in need of any big buffs for 3.0.

 

[JOE!]

A Uair near the top of the screen would probably be unaltered most of the time anyways.

 

[Heroofhatz]

So hey I have a new topic for discussion.

What do you guy's think Zard's potential is for offstage edge guarding? I mean his onstage is already pretty amazing, but looking at it he seems to have a lot going for him with multiple jumps, an awesome vertical and horizontal recover, and good airiels. But what sort of moves should be utilized and what sort of mindset and strategy should be kept in mind?

Feel free to speculate or post your own strategies.

 

[NightShadow6]

Nair is one of your best options for being safe, as it can go through the stage. Other than that you can go in pretty deep with Zard. (You can use nair in TONs of situations though, so its a go to move for sure)

Bair is probably the other best option for offstage edgegaurding. You can sometimes sourspot it then get a sweetspot pretty easily depending on the DI.

Downtilt/Ftilt can work as well, the sweetspot on Downtilt is guaranteed unless they have godlike recovery.

Be careful though as the edge isn't always free, characters such as mewtwo,peach, and jiggly can very easily contend off stage. Other than that just make the most out of your jumps and learn to reverse the glide if you haven't already.

 

[RyanR]

Hi everybody, I'm Ryan.

I'm new to PM (started when 3.0 came out) and I was considering maining Charizard.

I was just wondering what are basics of the character? (I'm not looking for a full run down of the character, just something to get me started)
This noob would highly appreciate any and all help.

 

[Heroofhatz]

Hi everybody, I'm Ryan.

I'm new to PM (started when 3.0 came out) and I was considering maining Charizard.

I was just wondering what are basics of the character? (I'm not looking for a full run down of the character, just something to get me started)
This noob would highly appreciate any and all help.

Hooo boy, there is a ton about Zard, but I'll try and and get just the important stuff.

First of all, Nair in pretty much undisputedly your best move. It's a great disjoint, has crazy priority, is a great spacing move, and has tons of possibilities for combos and mixups. Learn to use it often, one of Zard's favorite places to be relative to his opponent is to have his back facing them, so a quick jump Nair can catch pretty much anything. Learning how to Reverse Aerial Rush can be helpful if you have a more aggressive style.

Jab is another move that is incredibly useful, since it's really fast, is one of his many launchers, is also hugely disjointed, and is a great anti air if anyone is trying to SHFFL towards you (or combos but that's situation specific).

As far as throws are concerned, use Dthrow if you are looking for tech chases (not the most reliable but with quick reactions it is very hard to escape). You will probably want to regrab in most cases, or jab if you can read a neutral or no tech to start a combo. If you want raw percent and easier combos (and also tech chases at low percents) then use Bthrow. Without proper DI, it combos pretty regularly into Fair and much else besides.

Zard's recovery is also pretty dang good as well. Down b is awesome for horizontal recovery, and can be canceled into up b which has pretty good vertical recovery. Also glide-air has pretty huge priority and is useful if someone is trying to challenge your recover without disjoints.

Now, there is one combo that is considered to be your bread and butter against pretty much every character. If you ever manage to get an up-smash, up-tilt, or just any move that puts you on the ground and your opponent in the air directly above you, immediately Down B and charge fly. Use it to chase your opponent, chaining Uairs until you run out of jumps then finish with an up B. This combo will kill almost every character at medium percents on almost every stage, learn it and use it whenever you get the chance.

I'm pretty sure that I'm missing a few things, but I hope this covers the basics, also don't forget to check out videos of some of the top Zard players, I'll link a few below but feel free to explore some by yourself.
Happy Zarding!

Metroid:
GF - vs Vista (Falcon)
vs Darkatma (Marth)

Yomi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4esgT4xkyQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoBJS007U-w

 

[RyanR]

Hooo boy, there is a ton about Zard, but I'll try and and get just the important stuff.

First of all, Nair in pretty much undisputedly your best move. It's a great disjoint, has crazy priority, is a great spacing move, and has tons of possibilities for combos and mixups. Learn to use it often, one of Zard's favorite places to be relative to his opponent is to have his back facing them, so a quick jump Nair can catch pretty much anything. Learning how to Reverse Aerial Rush can be helpful if you have a more aggressive style.

Jab is another move that is incredibly useful, since it's really fast, is one of his many launchers, is also hugely disjointed, and is a great anti air if anyone is trying to SHFFL towards you (or combos but that's situation specific).

As far as throws are concerned, use Dthrow if you are looking for tech chases (not the most reliable but with quick reactions it is very hard to escape). You will probably want to regrab in most cases, or jab if you can read a neutral or no tech to start a combo. If you want raw percent and easier combos (and also tech chases at low percents) then use Bthrow. Without proper DI, it combos pretty regularly into Fair and much else besides.

Zard's recovery is also pretty dang good as well. Down b is awesome for horizontal recovery, and can be canceled into up b which has pretty good vertical recovery. Also glide-air has pretty huge priority and is useful if someone is trying to challenge your recover without disjoints.

Now, there is one combo that is considered to be your bread and butter against pretty much every character. If you ever manage to get an up-smash, up-tilt, or just any move that puts you on the ground and your opponent in the air directly above you, immediately Down B and charge fly. Use it to chase your opponent, chaining Uairs until you run out of jumps then finish with an up B. This combo will kill almost every character at medium percents on almost every stage, learn it and use it whenever you get the chance.

I'm pretty sure that I'm missing a few things, but I hope this covers the basics, also don't forget to check out videos of some of the top Zard players, I'll link a few below but feel free to explore some by yourself.
Happy Zarding!

Metroid:
GF - vs Vista (Falcon)
vs Darkatma (Marth)

Yomi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4esgT4xkyQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoBJS007U-w

Wow thanks a lot.

I just got back home from my first tournament. I got totally bodied, I want 0-2 in both brawl and PM. But that's besides the point, my main goal of this tourney was to learn.
And that's exactly what I did. I played a ton of friendlies, and got a lot of my questions answered.

I'm really looking forward to learning Charizard at a higher level (and Bowser for that matter)
I understand that is going to take time and perseverance, but im detected.

And again thanks for the Charizard primer!

 

[Heroofhatz]

Wow thanks a lot.

I just got back home from my first tournament. I got totally bodied, I want 0-2 in both brawl and PM. But that's besides the point, my main goal of this tourney was to learn.
And that's exactly what I did. I played a ton of friendlies, and got a lot of my questions answered.

I'm really looking forward to learning Charizard at a higher level (and Bowser for that matter)
I understand that is going to take time and perseverance, but im detected.

And again thanks for the Charizard primer!

Sure thing! It might behoove you as well to look back through some of these forum posts (but not too far since there were changes between 2.1 and 3.0). Let us know if you have any more questions about anything.

Also since this is finals week for a lot of people, it might take a while for replies from most people, so if nothing happens for a bit just be patient and hopefully somebody can help out.

Happy Nair-ing!

 

[Heroofhatz]

Does anyone know if glide camping the ledge is fully invincible?