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Character Discussion Thread

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Twin Shot

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Roy is always a possibility. Could be slim, but possible.

The Fire Emblem Awakening DLC with Roy and Ike has the word Smash in it for a reason.
Weird to me that they would directly reference Smash in FE but then omit Roy almost altogether in Smash (not even trophies).

Later down the line they can hype up STEAM again with the inclusion of Roy - or if Roy shows up somehow in the new FE game (or as DLC). Never know..

With the release of Pallet Swap Characters and Custom Moves we can now differentiate these characters on our own, I could see almost all "clone (to some extent)" Veterans returning in that way - Pichu, Young Link, Lucas, Wolf, Roy etc.

Who knows, maybe they will get the Doc treatment and get their own slot.

Would rather have all the characters back in someway rather then not at all. To me, Smash celebrates gaming as a whole - and it should celebrate it's own games by keeping all the characters - no matter how irrelevant they could be considered currently.
 

pupNapoleon

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Would rather have all the characters back in someway rather then not at all. To me, Smash celebrates gaming as a whole - and it should celebrate it's own games by keeping all the characters - no matter how irrelevant they could be considered currently.
I think representing growth and change in a dynamic industry is a much better way of celebrating its own series, than to arbitrarily feel confined to doing what it did before just because they did it before.
 

ZeldaFan01

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Roy is always a possibility. Could be slim, but possible.

The Fire Emblem Awakening DLC with Roy and Ike has the word Smash in it for a reason.
Weird to me that they would directly reference Smash in FE but then omit Roy almost altogether in Smash (not even trophies).

Later down the line they can hype up STEAM again with the inclusion of Roy - or if Roy shows up somehow in the new FE game (or as DLC). Never know..

With the release of Pallet Swap Characters and Custom Moves we can now differentiate these characters on our own, I could see almost all "clone (to some extent)" Veterans returning in that way - Pichu, Young Link, Lucas, Wolf, Roy etc.

Who knows, maybe they will get the Doc treatment and get their own slot.

Would rather have all the characters back in someway rather then not at all. To me, Smash celebrates gaming as a whole - and it should celebrate it's own games by keeping all the characters - no matter how irrelevant they could be considered currently.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who wants all or most of the veterans back first. One, it wouldn't take as much work to bring them back since most of them are clones. And number two, a lot of fans would be happy, as I'm sure if only necomers were DLC, a lot of people would question where the veterans are and why they're not back. Like even if we got cool characters like Isaac and Impa, a lot of people would still be left disappointed and confused.
 

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I'm glad I'm not the only one who wants all or most of the veterans back first. One, it wouldn't take as much work to bring them back since most of them are clones. And number two, a lot of fans would be happy, as I'm sure if only necomers were DLC, a lot of people would question where the veterans are and why they're not back. Like even if we got cool characters like Isaac and Impa, a lot of people would still be left disappointed and confused.
There's an element of quality over quantity here, though.

Veterans are fine and all, but some of them do little to distinguish themselves from other existing fighters. You could argue that the likes of Roy, Pichu and Young Link could be duly enhanced and fleshed out so as to stand out from their base models, but then the notion that they're "easy to transfer and design" is nullified.

Most of the veterans were cut for understandable reasons. The aforementioned trio were omitted because they were either considered redundant (Pichu), outdated (Roy) or replaced (Young Link); Ice Climbers ran into technical difficulties and had to be scrapped for the sake of the overall project; Pokémon Trainer was ditched after transforming characters were cut and pseudo-replaced with Charizard; Snake possesses some licensing and royalty issues. Only Wolf and Lucas I am a loss to explain, other than that they were merely considered low priority and were victims of time restraints. Mewtwo is even more baffling, though DLC has since rectified that issue, so that's one point in our favour.

Before anybody starts grabbing their torches and pitchforks, let me make this abundantly clear:

Understandable does not mean justified.

I would be quite happy to see the veterans return, even if I would never regularly play as most of them, but the fact of the matter is that there are reasons for their exclusion. There are reasons to advocate for their return, of course, but there are also just as many justified and cogent reasons to suggest newcomers ought to or will take priority. Restoring the veterans is not some magical panacea that will make more people happy than newcomers. Every character, regardless of appearances, relevancy, moveset or popularity, has their fans and will make people happy somehow, somewhere. That's the point that ought to be remembered here. All arguments are equally valid, in that all arguments are equally invalid, and subject to personal interpretation and honest counter-arguments at that.
 
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ZeldaFan01

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There's an element of quality over quantity here, though.

Veterans are fine and all, but some of them do little to distinguish themselves from other existing fighters. You could argue that the likes of Roy, Pichu and Young Link could be duly enhanced and fleshed out so as to stand out from their base models, but then the notion that they're "easy to transfer and design" is nullified.

Most of the veterans were cut for understandable reasons. The aforementioned trio were omitted because they were either considered redundant (Pichu), outdated (Roy) or replaced (Young Link); Ice Climbers ran into technical difficulties and had to be scrapped for the sake of the overall project; Snake possesses some licensing and royalty issues. Only Wolf and Lucas I am a loss to explain, other than that they were merely considered low priority and were victims of time restraints. Mewtwo is even more baffling, though DLC has since rectified that issue, so that's one point in our favour.

Before anybody starts grabbing their torches and pitchforks, let me make this abundantly clear:

Understandable does not mean justified.

I would be quite happy to see the veterans return, even if I would never regularly play as most of them, but the fact of the matter is that there are reasons for their exclusion. There are reasons to advocate for their return, of course, but there are also just as many justified and cogent reasons to suggest newcomers ought to or will take priority. Restoring the veterans is not some magical panacea that will make more people happy than newcomers. Every character, regardless of appearances, relevancy, moveset or popularity, has their fans and will make people happy somehow, somewhere. That's the point that ought to be remembered here. All arguments are equally valid, in that all arguments are equally invalid, and subject to personal interpretation and honest counter-arguments at that.
Wow, I would think that restoring the veterans to make more people happy is they first thing they would be thinking about. Then really, the only veterans that I guess "deserve" to be back are:lucas::wolf: maybe even :squirtle::ivysaur:. And unless Smash "works things out" with Konami, we won't be seeing :snake: back unfortunately. In fact, I see most people complain about not having :lucas::snake::wolf:, not about not having all veterans back. So maybe the people that want all or most back are the nostalgic ones but also in the minority. Even though I do want most back, as one would, I won't be extremely disappointed if certain ones never make a comeback. Its funny because if :drmario: and :mewtwomelee: weren't back, I'm sure some people would say not a chance!
 

Twin Shot

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I understand that some of the Veterans don't quite hold up because of redundancy, outdatement or replacement.

To me, though, would love them all to come back - because since it's conception I have played with every character (Don't have a "main") and have grown quite fond of all of them. Pichu may be my favorite in Melee just because of the challenge he always provided to win with and I still managed to pull it off...mind googling.

Even if they can't be decloned, I would still like them back as potential options at some point as clone characters DLC or simply just coming back as palette swap characters. Yes, it probably isn't the most realistic, but to me a tleast, would make the game the ultimate experience of what came before.

As Snake (RIP) once said: "Building the future and keeping the past alive are one in the same thing."
 

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I... absolutely do not think that veterans would make more people happy than newcomers.
I question if they would make people on these boards happier... which it seems might be yes.
However, I have no question the general community would get far more excited by a newcomer than a character they already could play as.

New characters also have the opportunity to draw in a new audience- much more so than anyone who "boycotted" the game by not buying it in the first place.
 

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I... absolutely do not think that veterans would make more people happy than newcomers.
I question if they would make people on these boards happier... which it seems might be yes.
However, I have no question the general community would get far more excited by a newcomer than a character they already could play as.

New characters also have the opportunity to draw in a new audience- much more so than anyone who "boycotted" the game by not buying it in the first place.
Personally I think otherwise.
Look at Mewtwo. He's a veteran, and yet look what happened when he was revealed for DLC. People went nuts over his inclusion. And on the other side of the coin we've gotten newcomers with lukewarm reception (like Dark Pit).
 

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Personally I think otherwise.
Look at Mewtwo. He's a veteran, and yet look what happened when he was revealed for DLC. People went nuts over his inclusion. And on the other side of the coin we've gotten newcomers with lukewarm reception (like Dark Pit).
We've also gotten newcomers with fantastic reception (like Megaman). It really just depends on who the newcomer/veteran is. If we got Young Link as a DLC character there would probably be a much more negative reaction then if, say, Snake got in. Same goes for newcomers, the reception would be much more positive if it was a character like K. Rool, Captain Toad, or Rayman, and less so if it was a character like Hilda or Dr. Luigi or something like that.
 

pupNapoleon

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Personally I think otherwise.
Look at Mewtwo. He's a veteran, and yet look what happened when he was revealed for DLC. People went nuts over his inclusion. And on the other side of the coin we've gotten newcomers with lukewarm reception (like Dark Pit).
Try that again, choose, quite literally, any two other characters, and I think you will have a more realistic representation of what you are saying.
Choosing not just one, but two, extreme outliers, does not accurately attest to Veterans being more greatly desired by the community as a whole.
 
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Try that again, choose, quite literally, any two other characters, and I think you will have a more realistic representation of what you are saying.
Choosing not just one, but two, extreme outliers, does not accurately attest to Veterans being more greatly desired by the community as a whole.
All right then, what about Wolf or Lucas? They're veterans, and yet people are clamoring left and right for them.
 

pupNapoleon

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All right then, what about Wolf or Lucas? They're veterans, and yet people are clamoring left and right for them.
If by people, you mean people who visit these boards (Smash related boards), then yes.
Majority of people who play the game, and who would be targeted to purchase the DLC, do not blog about it.
 

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If by people, you mean people who visit these boards (Smash related boards), then yes.
Majority of people who play the game, and who would be targeted to purchase the DLC, do not blog about it.
So, can you show me where it's proven that at least the majority of Smash fans prefer newcomers over veterans (and not just on Smash related boards)?
 
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PSIBoy

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The link doesn't work.
There's an element of quality over quantity here, though.

Veterans are fine and all, but some of them do little to distinguish themselves from other existing fighters. You could argue that the likes of Roy, Pichu and Young Link could be duly enhanced and fleshed out so as to stand out from their base models, but then the notion that they're "easy to transfer and design" is nullified.

Most of the veterans were cut for understandable reasons. The aforementioned trio were omitted because they were either considered redundant (Pichu), outdated (Roy) or replaced (Young Link); Ice Climbers ran into technical difficulties and had to be scrapped for the sake of the overall project; Pokémon Trainer was ditched after transforming characters wet cut and pseudo-replaced with Charizard; Snake possesses some licensing and royalty issues. Only Wolf and Lucas I am a loss to explain, other than that they were merely considered low priority and were victims of time restraints. Mewtwo is even more baffling, though DLC has since rectified that issue, so that's one point in our favour.

Before anybody starts grabbing their torches and pitchforks, let me make this abundantly clear:

Understandable does not mean justified.

I would be quite happy to see the veterans return, even if I would never regularly play as most of them, but the fact of the matter is that there are reasons for their exclusion. There are reasons to advocate for their return, of course, but there are also just as many justified and cogent reasons to suggest newcomers ought to or will take priority. Restoring the veterans is not some magical panacea that will make more people happy than newcomers. Every character, regardless of appearances, relevancy, moveset or popularity, has their fans and will make people happy somehow, somewhere. That's the point that ought to be remembered here. All arguments are equally valid, in that all arguments are equally invalid, and subject to personal interpretation and honest counter-arguments at that.
I'm taking a wild guess and saying it is this one.
 

pupNapoleon

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So, can you show me where it's proven that at least the majority of Smash fans prefer newcomers over veterans (and not just on Smash related boards)?
What is it you want exactly, a source from a scientific journal? We are postulating sociology
 

Twin Shot

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Honestly, I was only speaking for myself.
I want all the veterans back, that's all. Others don't have to agree with me. To each their own.

Since additional DLC aside from Mewtwo is a likely possibility (and they would be crazy not to as well with how crazy the Wii U sold in December and how these amiibros are going) I noticed that Nintendo likes to provide an extra incentive to buy a DLC Pass rather than single DLC packs in the form of an alternative costume or recolors. Shadow Link in Hyrule Warriors, Golden Mario in Golf, Yoshis & Shy Guys in Kart are some examples.

Do you guys think it is possible we could see a Veteran (Roy, Young Link etc) akin to a Palette Swap Character (Koopalings, Alph), a few new skins and recolors for select characters or something else entirely be offered up for getting a pass? Which would you want and what do you think is more likely?
 

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Just butting in to say that in our poll here, Wolf is the most wanted character with Lucas, Snake and Ice Climbers all being very popular choices as well.

Vets certainly have their fans.
 

Jason the Yoshi

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What if Magolor was in....


and he was our first "Portal Fighter"

He would be able to set down 2 Portals, and when he attacks one portal, the attack comes out the other portal.
That would be pretty cool. We do need a bit more villain involvement, and Magolor is a villain if I remember correctly from when I've seen his game's trailer.
 

Andinus

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If by people, you mean people who visit these boards (Smash related boards), then yes.
Majority of people who play the game, and who would be targeted to purchase the DLC, do not blog about it.
Try googling the phrase "want Lucas back as DLC" or wolf or something similar to that and sift through the pages and count how many different times you see someone on some other forum or site talking about how they want wolf and Lucas back.

But in any case just because someone does not take to the Internet to personally blog about it does not mean they would not buy it.
 

Freduardo

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That would be pretty cool. We do need a bit more villain involvement, and Magolor is a villain if I remember correctly from when I've seen his game's trailer.
He's a Kirby Villain.

Which means, he just wants a fight, but after that he'll probably be an okay guy to hang out with.

Look at Dedede and Meta Knight.... and Bandanna Dee. Heck even the puppet guy at the end of Triple Deluxe seemed alright at the end.
 

pupNapoleon

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Just butting in to say that in our poll here, Wolf is the most wanted character with Lucas, Snake and Ice Climbers all being very popular choices as well.

Vets certainly have their fans.
That's certainly not a great sample study of non forum goers opinions, though. I have no doubt the vocal Smash posters post for Wolf and Lucas.

I think the psychological understanding is that to people who post about Smash, those potentially, "More invested," the cut veterans feel like something that was taken from them. The newcomers, on the other hand, just feel like delightful additions that are welcome, but were never first belonged.
I think it is a sense of personal justice that makes people who play the game more often want some veterans to return more. I don't think people who have less of a connection to the game feel this way, because to them, a character is a character, and if given the option, the cooler character is usually the one that they never got to try out before.
But in any case just because someone does not take to the Internet to personally blog about it does not mean they would not buy it.
Realistically, I think any and every character will sell, no matter who it is.
 

Argos

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That's certainly not a great sample study of non forum goers opinions, though. I have no doubt the vocal Smash posters post for Wolf and Lucas.

I think the psychological understanding is that to people who post about Smash, those potentially, "More invested," the cut veterans feel like something that was taken from them. The newcomers, on the other hand, just feel like delightful additions that are welcome, but were never first belonged.
I think it is a sense of personal justice that makes people who play the game more often want some veterans to return more. I don't think people who have less of a connection to the game feel this way, because to them, a character is a character, and if given the option, the cooler character is usually the one that they never got to try out before.

Realistically, I think any and every character will sell, no matter who it is.
Well let me put my basic methodology (or something that loosely approximates a methodology) on the table: I think that the two main things to keep in mind when discussing possible DLC characters are 1. Will this sell and, if so, will this sell more than other characters that we could make and 2. How easy is it to make this character; that is, when you see two different characters that are likely to sell equally well the one that requires less effort is more likely to be chosen. I don't want to seem overly cynical, and I readily admit that there are other factors that are obviously very important (whatever Sakurai thinks will be fun to do, mostly) but I think these are good general guidelines to more closely approximate what's going to appear. Now, I think both of these tendencies point to veterans having a good chance of returning. Obviously, polls taken from Smash or Nintendo oriented site are to be taken with a bucketful of salt. The new editions of Smash have sold millions of copies, with only a small percentage of that regularly or even ever commenting on blogs and such. That said, I think that these more casual fans are more likely to be fans of Smash Brothers specifically than say, Fire Emblem or anything but the most prominent Nintendo franchises. It's anecdotal evidence but I remember a ton of people in college who only bothered with Smash Bros and a couple of other games on their Wiis, and many that picked mains that they wouldn't have cared about otherwise. These are the people that would instantly snap up a veteran that they recognize over some -perhaps more 'deserving'- newcomer they've never heard of. My second guideline more clearly points to veterans - they seem to be able to import data from Brawl that will make development much easier (something very important to note considering a project lead by someone so clearly burnt out from overwork as Sakurai!) and those that haven't been in since Melee (Pichu, Roy, Young Link) can easily be made as clones.

Anyway, that's how I see it. If there's anything I've learned from paying attention to speculation over the years it's that nothing is for certain and we're sure to be surprised in odd and sometimes wonderful ways.
 

pupNapoleon

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Well let me put my basic methodology (or something that loosely approximates a methodology) on the table: I think that the two main things to keep in mind when discussing possible DLC characters are 1. Will this sell and, if so, will this sell more than other characters that we could make and 2. How easy is it to make this character; that is, when you see two different characters that are likely to sell equally well the one that requires less effort is more likely to be chosen. I don't want to seem overly cynical, and I readily admit that there are other factors that are obviously very important (whatever Sakurai thinks will be fun to do, mostly) but I think these are good general guidelines to more closely approximate what's going to appear.
Hard to argue with thinking that the ones who would sell highest would be the DLC choices- I just don't think we agree on what would sell highest. The core smash community would buy any character, regardless. Catering to them is actually counter-productive as far as DLC goes. When making DLC you want to reach the most broad audience as possible, and in a game like Smash Bros I fully believe that is with what is fresh and new (something Sakurai has been shown to like in general, never just recreating).

As far as veterans go, the single piece of evidence we have for why they may return is that Sakurai has said he doesn't like cutting characters because they have fans. That said, we know he already cut them, and it is clear cuts must be made.
Every other bit of evidence points toward it being new content, fully. Two years ago Miyamoto made a statement on what Nintendo's quest into DLC would be like: http://kotaku.com/nintendos-strange-two-year-journey-into-dlc-1641525034
He explains here how he wants Nintendo games to have DLC that feels new, fresh, and not like with held content, which veterans are the epitome of. Sakurai echoed these views a few years later when outlining what his concerns were about DLC in Smash. Nothing should be strange about this, though, as Nintendo is constantly on the verge of trying to Innovate.

Even still, we have had other issues. Sakurai has gone on record to say that characters get lower priority when they are not likely to reappear. Roy and Pichu certainly fit here (they appear, maybe, but in no notable way). Lucas's creator went on record to say that his series is over.

That said, I think that these more casual fans are more likely to be fans of Smash Brothers specifically than say, Fire Emblem or anything but the most prominent Nintendo franchises. It's anecdotal evidence but I remember a ton of people in college who only bothered with Smash Bros and a couple of other games on their Wiis, and many that picked mains that they wouldn't have cared about otherwise. These are the people that would instantly snap up a veteran that they recognize over some -perhaps more 'deserving'- newcomer they've never heard of.
That's exactly my point though (well, one point)- there are characters Nintendo has access to who are more recognizable than ones who were in previous editions of Smash. Even if Lucas was in Brawl, even if Roy was in Melee, Dixie Kong and Captain Toad are more well known. If we go with purely well known, the DLC will be strictly Pokemon and Mario.
The veterans who are unquestionably the most recognizable to the highest number of people are Snake, Squirtle, to a lesser extent Ivysaur (who is then just a misappropriated Bulbasaur). Those aren't the ones the forums ask most for.

My second guideline more clearly points to veterans - they seem to be able to import data from Brawl that will make development much easier (something very important to note considering a project lead by someone so clearly burnt out from overwork as Sakurai!) and those that haven't been in since Melee (Pichu, Roy, Young Link) can easily be made as clones.

Sakurai has stated in multiple interviews that data was not ported, though. He made it clear each character was worked from the ground up, with the exception of Dr Mario, Lucina, and Dark Pit- mostly because of the balancing being easier off of them. You may now have a point for why the missing Melee veterans have a shot as clone entrants, but certainly not for any other veteran.
 
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AEMehr

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That would be pretty cool. We do need a bit more villain involvement, and Magolor is a villain if I remember correctly from when I've seen his game's trailer.
That's funny because he's not actually much of a villain until the ending cutscenes. Don't know how you pieced that one together solely based on his appearance in the trailers.
Magolor could be pretty neat, I never considered the possibility of him using portals.

My idea for a Moveset for him was pretty basic:
Neutral Special was throwing the three projectiles he tosses at the beginning of the first phase of the battle against him.(Boss Battle attack)
Side Special was the quick speed twirl he does in the races against Kirby. (Races in the 20th Anniversary)
Up Special was him teleporting. (Boss Battle trait)
Down Special was him concocting a gear to drop from above, charging the move would increase the size of the gear that would fall from above. (Attack from the races in the 20th Anniversary)
Final Smash was his Black Hole Star move, essentially kinda like Crazy Hand's ripping through reality attack. Only with more damage and knockback at the end of it.

His normal attacks were to supposed to reference attacks in his boss battle, along with some highlighting his limbless hands (extended reach punches and stuff like that). But the portal concept opens up a lot more possibilities. Though, as cool as Magolor could be I don't think he's going to have any major reappearances anytime soon. Bandana Waddle Dee will remain my logical pick for another Kirby character if we ever receive one.
 

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I made a Magolor Portal Moveset:

B: Crowned Portal:
Magolor sets down a portal. He can set down two max. Attacks that go into one portal come out the other.
Tap B and then push the control stick left or right to make the portal switches direction, so that attacks are redirected through the other side of the portals.

SideB: Lor Starcutter
The Starship rushes for a short distance. Especially dangerous when send into a portal.

UpB: Portal's Flash
Magolor is teleported to a portal he's closest to.

DownB: Portal's Storm
The Portal Magolor is the closest to sucks opponents in.

Final Smash: True form.
I know, transformation FS's are stupid, but it represents Magolor and Kirby villains in general pretty well.
 

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That's certainly not a great sample study of non forum goers opinions, though. I have no doubt the vocal Smash posters post for Wolf and Lucas.

I think the psychological understanding is that to people who post about Smash, those potentially, "More invested," the cut veterans feel like something that was taken from them. The newcomers, on the other hand, just feel like delightful additions that are welcome, but were never first belonged.
I think it is a sense of personal justice that makes people who play the game more often want some veterans to return more. I don't think people who have less of a connection to the game feel this way, because to them, a character is a character, and if given the option, the cooler character is usually the one that they never got to try out before.

Realistically, I think any and every character will sell, no matter who it is.
This game is a sequel, so the majority of people who are buying it have played the other games and would likely have played with Lucas, Wolf and IC.
 
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pupNapoleon

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This game is a sequel, so the majority of people who are buying it have played the other games and would likely have played with Lucas, Wolf and IC.
Sakurai does not like sequels, nor does he cater to them.
 

pupNapoleon

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If that was true we'd have lost Jiggs a long time ago.
What isn't true, that Sakurai doesn't like making sequels? He has outright stated this. It's also the reason so much of each Smash game is dropped in one player mode from one game to the next, because he likes to try new things.

Obviously he holds some respect for characters who have had some longevity in the game- and clearly he is okay with cutting characters as well, even if it is not his favorite thing to do. Besides, he invented Kirby, why wouldn't he love Jigglypuff?
 
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