Character Discussion Thread

[Staarih]

If we judge newcomers by Sakurai's trolling attempts, Ridley, Palutena and Mewtwo would probably be the top picks.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

I don't really see Mewtwo happening because I've begun to notice a bit of a pattern emerging with regard to roster slots. You simply don't outnumber Mario, that's it. You can achieve parity, but never exceed.

Examples:

SSB64: , vs vs , (2/1/2)

SSBM: ,,,, vs ,/,, vs ,,, (5/4/4)

SSBB: ,,, vs ,,, vs ,,, (4/4/4)

(Speculation)SSB4: ,,,, vs ,,,, vs ,,,, (5/5/5)

Not only is this a noticeable and provable pattern, but this ALSO coincides with ANOTHER pattern, that of O12 status. Every game, every time. Which leads me to believe Jigglypuff will be Pokemon's 5th rep, and Mewtwo remains gone.

 

[Shagadelic_Baby]

5 more days till E3! It's so close...

 

[Staarih]

I don't really see Mewtwo happening because I've begun to notice a bit of a pattern emerging with regard to roster slots. You simply don't outnumber Mario, that's it. You can achieve parity, but never exceed.

Not only is this a noticeable and provable pattern, but this ALSO coincides with ANOTHER pattern, that of O12 status. Every game, every time. Which leads me to believe Jigglypuff will be Pokemon's 5th rep, and Mewtwo remains gone.

But Mewtwo would certainly be possible if Mario gets a 6th rep too (Paper Mario), right?

Not that I believe in patterns or slot amounts per franchise or anything of the like in Smash.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

But Mewtwo would certainly be possible if Mario gets a 6th rep too (Paper Mario), right?

Not that I believe in patterns or slot amounts per franchise or anything of the like in Smash.

Maybe, but I believe in a 40-character roster, and this seems to be justifying that belief.

 

[TumblrFamous]

I don't really see Mewtwo happening because I've begun to notice a bit of a pattern emerging with regard to roster slots. You simply don't outnumber Mario, that's it. You can achieve parity, but never exceed.

Examples:

SSB64: , vs vs , (2/1/2)

SSBM: ,,,, vs ,/,, vs ,,, (5/4/4)

SSBB: ,,, vs ,,, vs ,,, (4/4/4)

(Speculation)SSB4: ,,,, vs ,,,, vs ,,,, (5/5/5)

Not only is this a noticeable and provable pattern, but this ALSO coincides with ANOTHER pattern, that of O12 status. Every game, every time. Which leads me to believe Jigglypuff will be Pokemon's 5th rep, and Mewtwo remains gone.

I don't really think roster slots matter that much...

 

[False Sense]

I don't really see Mewtwo happening because I've begun to notice a bit of a pattern emerging with regard to roster slots. You simply don't outnumber Mario, that's it. You can achieve parity, but never exceed.

Examples:

SSB64: , vs vs , (2/1/2)

SSBM: ,,,, vs ,/,, vs ,,, (5/4/4)

SSBB: ,,, vs ,,, vs ,,, (4/4/4)

(Speculation)SSB4: ,,,, vs ,,,, vs ,,,, (5/5/5)

Not only is this a noticeable and provable pattern, but this ALSO coincides with ANOTHER pattern, that of O12 status. Every game, every time. Which leads me to believe Jigglypuff will be Pokemon's 5th rep, and Mewtwo remains gone.

It may be a pattern, but that doesn't make it fact. Unless Sakurai outright says that no series can have more slots than Mario, or that slots actually matter, assuming patterns to be fact is illogical.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

It may be a pattern, but that doesn't make it fact. Unless Sakurai outright says that no series can have more slots than Mario, or that slots actually matter, assuming patterns to be fact is illogical.

I, as well as everyone else, have nothing else to speculate the future on aside from provable patterns in the past. However insubstantial it may appear, it DOES appear, and that makes it important to highlight, I feel.

 

[BKupa666]

It may be a pattern, but that doesn't make it fact. Unless Sakurai outright says that no series can have more slots than Mario, or that slots actually matter, assuming patterns to be fact is illogical.

This. If you're being honest with your character counts, the ratio of Mario/Pokemon/Zelda becomes:

64: 2/2/1
Melee: 5/4/5
Brawl: 4/6/5

Having a 5/6/5 ratio this time around wouldn't kill anybody...although it could put a "muh reps" nut or two into cardiac arrest.

 

[AncientTobacco]

I don't really see Mewtwo happening because I've begun to notice a bit of a pattern emerging with regard to roster slots. You simply don't outnumber Mario, that's it. You can achieve parity, but never exceed.

Examples:

SSB64: , vs vs , (2/1/2)

SSBM: ,,,, vs ,/,, vs ,,, (5/4/4)

SSBB: ,,, vs ,,, vs ,,, (4/4/4)

(Speculation)SSB4: ,,,, vs ,,,, vs ,,,, (5/5/5)

Not only is this a noticeable and provable pattern, but this ALSO coincides with ANOTHER pattern, that of O12 status. Every game, every time. Which leads me to believe Jigglypuff will be Pokemon's 5th rep, and Mewtwo remains gone.

You need to realize that Sakurai doesn't think of them as "slots", he thinks of them as characters.

He has said that Brawl has 39 characters, which would include Sheik and the Trainer's Pokemon.

 

[Sehnsucht]

This. If you're being honest with your character counts, the ratio of Mario/Pokemon/Zelda becomes:

64: 2/2/1
Melee: 5/4/5
Brawl: 4/6/5

Having a 5/6/5 ratio this time around wouldn't kill anybody...although it could put a "muh reps" nut or two into cardiac arrest.

But it's about the slots on the CSS, BK!

The SLOTS!

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

You need to realize that Sakurai doesn't think of them as "slots", he thinks of them as characters.

He has said that Brawl has 39 characters, which would include Sheik and the Trainer's Pokemon.

Then why don't they take their own spots on the character select screen?

My argument is that with regard to transformation characters, they CANNOT EXIST without the other 'half'(or 'thirds' in PT's case, and PT technically wasn't even a character, just a background element!). Because of that, they only took up their one slot character-wise. Now that Charizard is independent, along with Sheik and ZSS, they have their own slots. Not only that, but because of that split, the pattern is holding. 5/5/5. O12 status is also a noted pattern(and, as folk suggest, as easily discardable). To ignore that would be the only means I see of Mewtwo getting in, is if Jigglypuff gets cut. The pattern does not suggest such an occurance.

 

[False Sense]

Then why don't they take their own spots on the character select screen?

Because they transform into each other?

 

[HylianHeroBigBoss]

Then why don't they take their own spots on the character select screen?

I cant tell if this is serious or not. I mean with how they are presented this time around in ssb4 you could see how he views them.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

Because they transform into each other?

I cant tell if this is serious or not. I mean with how they are presented this time around in ssb4 you could see how he views them.

Correct. Until the split, they could not exist without the other. Sheik and Zelda were tied together. ZSS was a 'balance' of Samus's FS. PT had additional mechanics thrown in to JUSTIFY his transforming nature.

Now that they're separate, they can truly be picked independently, which leads to their own slots on the selection screen. And thus the pattern holds.

 

[False Sense]

Correct. Until the split, they could not exist without the other. Sheik and Zelda were tied together. ZSS was a 'balance' of Samus's FS. PT had additional mechanics thrown in to JUSTIFY his transforming nature.

Now that they're separate, they can truly be picked independently, which leads to their own slots on the selection screen. And thus the pattern holds.

But what you're implying is that characters mean nothing unless they have their own slot on the select screen. You're basically saying that characters like Sheik and Zero Suit Samus did not exist, or in any way contribute to the representation of their respective series. Are you really making that claim, despite the fact that those characters were treated like any other individual character apart from the roster selection screen?

 

[JFM2796]

Let's not forget that Mewtwo has unfinished data in Brawl as well, meaning Sakurai was ready to have the roster be vs vs .

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

Let's not forget that Mewtwo has unfinished data in Brawl as well, meaning Sakurai was ready to have the roster be vs vs .

Was he? With the amount of data that was there, he surely could have finished him. If Mewtwo really is as important to Smash as many claim, why place him on the back burner and risk having to make a hard choice with him? The amount of data just dummied out suggests to me that he was worked with, but eventually given up on. And it was ,, and , in the end. Funny, that.

 

[BKupa666]

Let's not forget that Mewtwo has unfinished data in Brawl as well, meaning Sakurai was ready to have the roster be vs vs .

Err, actually...he was planned 5 (Mario gets Doc), 7 (Pokemon gets Mewtwo), and 7 (Zelda gets Toon Zelda and Sheik), respectively. Oh, the humanity!

 

[TumblrFamous]

Slots don't matter. They never mattered. The fact that in Brawl the Big Three had four slots apiece was just coincidence. If they had enough time (which was the reason Mewtwo was cut from development), it would have been 4/5/7.

 

[Rockaphin]

I don't really care too much, but honestly Mario deserves to have the most reps or at least tied for the most and yes, the series has potential to have another newcomer: Bowser Jr., Toad, and Paper Mario are all great choices.
Now, I don't expect another Mario newcomer so I guess I'll have to accept my future cardiac arrest!
I mean, I didn't kill over when Brawl had 4 Mario characters, Zelda had 5 characters, and Pokémon had 6 I believe.

 

[JFM2796]

Was he? With the amount of data that was there, he surely could have finished him. If Mewtwo really is as important to Smash as many claim, why place him on the back burner and risk having to make a hard choice with him? The amount of data just dummied out suggests to me that he was worked with, but eventually given up on. And it was ,, and , in the end. Funny, that.

They had to stop his development to include at the last minute. The fact was even started shows that they were ready to have more Pokemon reps than Mario reps even on the CSS.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

Err, actually...he was planned 5 (Mario gets Doc), 7 (Pokemon gets Mewtwo), and 7 (Zelda gets Toon Zelda and Sheik), respectively. Oh, the humanity!

Slots don't matter. They never mattered. The fact that in Brawl the Big Three had four slots apiece was just coincidence. If they had enough time (which was the reason Mewtwo was cut from development), it would have been 4/5/7.

But it wasn't. On the screen, it was 4/4/4. Why not expand the selection screen to advertise that 'hey, we do actually have 39 characters, jump on in'? Because it would violate the pattern.

 

[Niala]

Yeah, I'm a bit torn between Ness and Lucas... actually, I'm one of those who (dare I say it?) wouldn't mind if Lucas was cut, reverting Ness back to being the sole representative of Mother/Earthbound. But looking at how things have turned out for some other returning characters, Lucas will probably return. That said, one of the two will likely be a starter, in which case one of the two would be pretty likely to be shown with any other "obvious" returner. Guess my list for E3 veterans should thus be Wario, Ice Climbers, MetaKnight AND Lucas/Ness.
and hopefully Snake.

I'm actually on the opposite side of things. Now, let me preface this by saying I've TRIED AND TRIED to play Earthbound, and understand what it is about that game people seem to enjoy, and every attempt has come up fruitless. Not only has the game aged rather poorly, but even if it were brand new, I still see little appeal. I found the game is quite drab, the only enjoyable thing about it being it's quirky sense of humor. As such, my opinions on their characters is relative only to how much I like them in Smash, and therefore would prefer the unrealistic and terribly unlikely outcome of Lucas returning over Ness. Granted, I suspect they'll both be coming back either way, so Ness can remain an unused space on my roster.

Slots again, eh? I'll abstain from discussing something so made up and trivial.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

They had to stop his development to include at the last minute. The fact was even started shows that they were ready to have more Pokemon reps than Mario reps even on the CSS.

Doesn't that just highlight how low-priority Mewtwo is then? If Sega can bully their lead mascot in at the last second and displace one of 'the most important Pokemon of its series', that kind of says to me that Mewtwo wasn't all that important in the long run, and they just gave up.

Plus, Doc was started too. That would have made it 5/4/5. Mario still unexceeded. Pattern still unbroken.

 

[TumblrFamous]

But it wasn't. On the screen, it was 4/4/4. Why not expand the selection screen to advertise that 'hey, we do actually have 39 characters, jump on in'? Because it would violate the pattern.

I don't think you understand, so let me make this as simple as possible: The screen means nothing to picking characters. Characters will be chosen regardless of how they will fit on the screen.

 

[Rockaphin]

I bought Earthbound on the VC and I just can't get into it. It seems like a fantastic game, however, for some reason I've lost the motivation to start playing again.

 

[ppbto]

If you need to apply certain rules or disregard certain data so your pattern can be logical, then your pattern is flawed. Also you haven't enough data to claim this is a true pattern and even if this was a pattern, just remember that patterns can be broken.

 

[BKupa666]

But it wasn't. On the screen, it was 4/4/4. Why not expand the selection screen to advertise that 'hey, we do actually have 39 characters, jump on in'? Because it would violate the pattern.

Roster layout is determined by a pattern that Sakurai has never even hinted about? News to me.

Do you not think Sakurai would prioritize adding back a veteran that millions of fans can enjoy over allocating the same amount of select screen space to three different series so as to not upset the delicate sensibilities of maybe a few hundred fans on message boards?

 

[Staarih]

But it wasn't. On the screen, it was 4/4/4. Why not expand the selection screen to advertise that 'hey, we do actually have 39 characters, jump on in'? Because it would violate the pattern.

Even if it looked like Pokémon had 4 characters on the screen in Brawl, it actually still had 6 distinctive characters, all of which took time to program and whatnot. If we'd had the "no transformations" thing in Brawl, all of PT's Pokémon would have had their own slots, just like Sheik and ZSS do now. And that would equal to six different Pokémon characters. It's not like two of them would just magically disappear.

 

[TumblrFamous]

Okay, let's go a different route...

Thoughts?

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

I don't think you understand, so let me make this as simple as possible: The screen means nothing to picking characters. Characters will be chosen regardless of how they will fit on the screen.

But the arrangement IS important. Why not just have the O12 at the top line in Brawl? Because they were arranged according to series. Why not just have Pokemon individually selectable on the screen in Brawl rather than having to select PT? Why not have Zelda/Sheik displayed on the screen separately rather than having to go an additional step? Why not have ZSS directly selectable? Surely the extra slots displayed on the roster would look quite impressive, no? This didn't happen, because otherwise the pattern would be violated.

If you need to apply certain rules or disregard certain data so your pattern can be logical, then your pattern is flawed. Also you haven't enough data to claim this is a true pattern and even if this was a pattern, just remember that patterns can be broken.

Patterns can be broken, but I've seen no evidence this is going to be the case. Transformation characters are dead? PT is gone. Greninja shows up? Squirtle likely DOA. Ivysaur's an X-factor, but at this point he's fighting for a spot vs Jigglypuff, the beneficiary of ANOTHER pattern, O12. This means either Mario is getting another rep(I do not believe this, as I believe in 40 characters), or there are 5 reps in the Pokemon lineup, same as Zelda.

Roster layout is determined by a pattern that Sakurai has never even hinted about? News to me.

Do you not think Sakurai would prioritize adding back a veteran that millions of fans can enjoy over allocating the same amount of select screen space to three different series so as to not upset the delicate sensibilities of maybe a few hundred fans on message boards?

It may be worse than that, actually. They may have just decided Mewtwo's not worth it anymore. You don't get that much data out of a rush job. They consciously decided to stop.

 

[False Sense]

But the arrangement IS important. Why not just have the O12 at the top line in Brawl? Because they were arranged according to series. Why not just have Pokemon individually selectable on the screen in Brawl rather than having to select PT? Why not have Zelda/Sheik displayed on the screen separately rather than having to go an additional step? Why not have ZSS directly selectable? Surely the extra slots displayed on the roster would look quite impressive, no? This didn't happen, because otherwise the pattern would be violated.

Or, they didn't see much of a reason to have characters that transformed into each other as a part of their move set be placed in separate slots on the roster. The characters are tied together, and that reflected on the roster selection screen.

 

[Sehnsucht]

Doesn't that just highlight how low-priority Mewtwo is then? If Sega can bully their lead mascot in at the last second and displace one of 'the most important Pokemon of its series', that kind of says to me that Mewtwo wasn't all that important in the long run, and they just gave up.

Plus, Doc was started too. That would have made it 5/4/5. Mario still unexceeded. Pattern still unbroken.

Third-Party inclusions are high-profile, by virtue of their pedigree. If Sonic was added late in development, he would immediately become the highest priority character over all others. If he was added late enough that they couldn't afford to both finish Sonic and everyone else (even if just one more character), then the priority would lie with Sonic.

It's not about SEGA strongarming Sora (/Nintendo) to get Sonic in at the detriment of other characters, because it's up to Sakurai and Friends (/Nintendo) to accept or deny any Third-Parties (for in Sakurai's words, they are "guest" characters). SEGA can't bully Sonic into Smash, unless SEGA persuades Nintendo in an agreement, and Nintendo subsequently directs Sakurai to get Sonic into Brawl (which we can't know if it happened, since no information exists on such hypothetical backroom dealings).

If Snake were to have been added instead of Sonic at around the same timeframe (very late into development), the same outcome would likely have resulted, regarding Snake's prioritization over Mewtwo and whoever else. If you're going to go through the trouble secure the rights and licensing for a Third-Party character, you're going to complete work on them, even if at the expense of other elements (e.g. the Forbidden Seven).

 

[AncientTobacco]

Ebony, have you noticed how there's a pattern between Metroid, Yoshi and F-Zero representation? They've had one slot in all three games.

Now that ZSS has been split from Samus, we are guaranteed to get another Yoshi character and another F-Zero character. Sakurai can't violate the pattern, after all.

 

[Louie G.]

Maybe, but I believe in a 40-character roster, and this seems to be justifying that belief.

Alright, now I'm not even taking you seriously.

I'm sorry, but the roster will likely be 48-52 characters.
40 characters is very low and only one more character than Brawl had.

If you're arguing against Mewtwo while believing the roster will be that small, you have to consider that most think the roster will be 48-52 characters. There's a lot more space for Mewtwo and even another Mario character in our mentality.

Oh, also, Mewtwo wasn't nearly as big then as he is now.

 

[Morbi]

Okay, let's go a different route...

Thoughts?

Why is there a noticeable lack of awesome purple antagonists? Mewtwo is close enough, I suppose.

 

[BKupa666]

It may be worse than that, actually. They may have just decided Mewtwo's not worth it anymore. You don't get that much data out of a rush job. They consciously decided to stop.

Yes, but...what exactly does that have to do with "slots"? If creating the illusion of equality between Mario and Pokemon was that big a deal to the team, why did they get a good chunk of development done on Mewtwo before deciding to allocate resources elsewhere?

Unless you're claiming that one day, out of the blue, the team had a collective epiphany to stop Mewtwo for the sake of "slot sanctity," the very fact that they planned him at all signifies that their jimmies were not rustled in the slightest by developing 7 Pokemon characters alongside 5 for Mario.

 

[TumblrFamous]

Ebony, have you noticed how there's a pattern between Metroid, Yoshi and F-Zero representation? They've had one slot in all three games.

Now that ZSS has been split from Samus, we are guaranteed to get another Yoshi character and another F-Zero character. Sakurai can't violate the pattern, after all.

Don't forget a new StarFox character. After all, we've seen a new one every game.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

Or, they didn't see much of a reason to have characters that transformed into each other as a part of their move set be placed in separate slots on the roster. The characters are tied together, and that reflected on the roster selection screen.

Which also just conicidentally reinforces the pattern. I don't believe this is coincidence though, it's something consciously being done.

Ebony, have you noticed how there's a pattern between Metroid, Yoshi and F-Zero representation? They've had one slot in all three games.

Now that ZSS has been split from Samus, we are guaranteed to get another Yoshi character and another F-Zero character. Sakurai can't violate the pattern, after all.

That's never been an actionable pattern, nor is it the crux of my argument. The pattern I've observed is that Mario's presence on the CSS is either always dominant or shares for top. It NEVER gets exceeded.

Alright, now I'm not even taking you seriously.

I'm sorry, but the roster will likely be 48-52 characters.
40 characters is very low and only one more character than Brawl had.

If you're arguing against Mewtwo while believing the roster will be that small, you have to consider that most think the roster will be 48-52 characters. There's a lot more space for Mewtwo and even another Mario character in our mentality.

Oh, also, Mewtwo wasn't nearly as big then as he is now.

Time is ticking if they want to work in those extraneous characters. But then, I've also put myself on the line as far as my 40-character belief. Nothing has changed that threatens that, in my opinion.