Character Discussion Thread

[Starcutter]

Pink Gold Peach for 6th mario character


but seriously, I wouldn't mind Nabbit.

 

[Kenith]

It was Ghirahim during the period Chrono was looking, which was at the peak of his popularity. If it cooled off quickly here, imagine how fast it did over where SS wasn't even super popular...

Skyward Sword may have not been "super popular" but it's character were, and still are.

Plus, there's developer bias involved. It's still promoted, just not directly.

 

[Arcanir]

It was Ghirahim during the period Chrono was looking, which was at the peak of his popularity. If it cooled off quickly here, imagine how fast it did over where SS wasn't even super popular...

Potentially, but the thing is we don't know if it has really cooled off over there, much less how much as we don't have that information. Even if it has, we still don't know if that puts Tingle on top, remember that Chronobound also said that Toon Zelda was ahead of him while he rarely came up in general, so we can't just assume that it changed and he is the most popular choice from the series right now because of what we think the situation might be.

 

[N3ON]

Skyward Sword may have not been "super popular" but it's character were, and still are.

Plus, there's developer bias involved. It's still promoted, just not directly.

Developer bias? They're not GF, Nintendo themselves never have butted into Sakurai's decisions as far as we know.

And if you have some more recent aggregated Japanese results, please do share. I think it'd also be important to note that Chrono put Ghirahim in the fourth tier for requested characters in Japan, the fourth. Back when he was at his peak. That's not super popular.

 

[Kenith]

Developer bias? They're not GF, Nintendo themselves never have butted into Sakurai's decisions as far as we know.

And if you have some more recent aggregated Japanese results, please do share. I think it'd also be important to note that Chrono put Ghirahim in the fourth tier for requested characters in Japan, the fourth. Back when he was at his peak. That's not super popular.

I don't mean it like that; I mean it is very clear the makers of the game favor it other the others.
Why is that important? Because it means they will very likely re-use elements of it.

Secondly, have you ever considered not everyone who likes a series or game likes Smash Bros? Ghirahim may not be requested for Smash Bros that much, but I wouldn't say he isn't popular.

All the fanart says otherwise.

 

[mini paincakes]

What is the possibility that Snake will return?

I want him back more than anything, but there's a good chance he's cut. I'm expecting him at e3 if he's in the game.

plz give snake sakurai.

 

[N3ON]

Potentially, but the thing is we don't know if it has really cooled off over there, much less how much as we don't have that information. Even if it has, we still don't know if that puts Tingle on top, remember that Chronobound also said that Toon Zelda was ahead of him while he rarely came up in general, so we can't just assume that it changed and he is the most popular choice from the series right now because of what we think the situation might be.

I don't know if that puts Tingle on top as far as Smash requests go, but he obviously must have some popularity over there if Nintendo has voluntarily churned out four games starring him...

It's true that might not translate directly to Smash demand, but I also don't think that indicates a lack of desire to see him from Japanese fans, it's not like any other Zelda character can maintain a notable amount of popularity there anyway. Tingle does get requested, I've checked Japanese sites myself. By no means is he a top pick, but he's there. And he's been there for a while, longer than the rise and fall of a flavour-of-the-month character.

I don't mean it like that; I mean it is very clear the makers of the game favor it other the others.
Why is that important? Because it means they will very likely re-use elements of it.

And... where is it stated that the Zelda devs favour SS to the others (honestly I wouldn't know)? Didn't they say there were trying something different than past Zeldas with this upcoming one?

Secondly, have you ever considered not everyone who likes a series or game likes Smash Bros? Ghirahim may not be requested for Smash Bros that much, but I wouldn't say he isn't popular.

All the fanart says otherwise.

So... wouldn't that support Tingle then? Yeah, not all of Ghirahim's popularity might translate into Smash demand, but that can also be said of Tingle, only to a much greater extent, given that, as I said, he did manage to have enough popularity to leverage four games in his sub-series... and enough popularity to be given preferential treatment in Smash previously as the sole AT of the Zelda series...

 

[Starcutter]

I certainly like Ghiraham.


I still am betting on Tetra, though.

 

[False Sense]

I certainly like Ghiraham.


I still am betting on Tetra, though.

Same here.

Still betting on no Zelda newcomer, though.

 

[Starcutter]

Same here.

Still betting on no Zelda newcomer, though.

yeah, that's possible.


even though no newcomer in 2 (3?) games is kinda weird for a franchise like zelda.

 

[andimidna]

Wherever they might land on his chances, he's still the most requested from the series.

No... I don't think that's true.

Every Zelda character poll I've seen, Tingle has done pretty terribly, and Ghirahim has came out on top.

1 Example from January: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1ZnX9Z7Xf8glYI8m8fkCFI622q2InLTi-fLCDnhTsKhs/viewanalytics

And when I see Smash polls that include Zelda characters, it's always exactly the same

Like, Shortie's poll. I'm pretty sure the remaining Zelda characters rank:

1. Ghirahim
2. Ganon
3. Vaati
4. Tingle
5. Impa

And even in Japan, from what I've heard, he's not very requested at all.
He isn't hated there, and is liked by comparison, but not very requested for Smash.
Plus, Little Mac shows it's not all about Japan.
And Sheik, Greninja, and Rosalina show it's not all about # of appearances.

Ghirahim is really the only one I see come up on Miiverse...
He's the one with the most appeal, in my almost definitely biased perspective.
I think he's the most unique choice the series has to offer that isn't a deconfirmed character.
He has that same "current popularity spark" that's worked for the 2 other series of Nintendo's main 3.
And well it may not mean much, he'll probably be in Hyrule Warriors, like all other major Zelda characters. So... that's kind of a "recurrence"?
Anyways, he does have popularity, uniqueness, and recency at his favor. And popularity and uniqueness is what I personally think should be the most important factors... for a fighting game. People want to see the characters they like, characters they actually want to play as. And if a newcomer doesn't add a new, appealing fighting style, then I'd wish they wouldn't have been added at all.
He's still the one that's getting love from the new fans of Zelda, and many who played Skyward Sword.
OoT-SSB64-MM-Melee-WW-TP-Brawl-SS-Smash4
And I see people saying Ghirahim won't get in because Midna and Zant didn't get in Brawl, and he's the new them.
But as you can see, in Brawl, TP characters had to compete with WW characters, and WW characters won.
But the only new major Zelda title this time in SS, I mean, and ALBW could be competition... but not nearly as much as a WW character was.

Skull Kid: Appeared in four games.

Midna: Appeared in one game.

Ghirahim: Appeared in one game.

Tetra: Appeared in four games.

Vaati: Appeared in three games.

Twinrova: Appeared in four games.

I know you didn't ask for this, I just wanted to add to it.

What was Skull Kid's 4th game?
And Tetra's 3rd and 4th game?

 

[MAGMIS]

No... I don't think that's true.

Every Zelda character poll I've seen, Tingle has done pretty terribly, and Ghirahim has came out on top.

1 Example from January: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1ZnX9Z7Xf8glYI8m8fkCFI622q2InLTi-fLCDnhTsKhs/viewanalytics

And when I see Smash polls that include Zelda characters, it's always exactly the same

Like, Shortie's poll. I'm pretty sure the remaining Zelda characters rank:

1. Ghirahim
2. Ganon
3. Vaati
4. Tingle
5. Impa

And even in Japan, from what I've heard, he's not very requested at all.
He isn't hated there, and is liked by comparison, but not very requested for Smash.
Plus, Little Mac shows it's not all about Japan.
And Sheik, Greninja, and Rosalina show it's not all about # of appearances.

Ghirahim is really the only one I see come up on Miiverse...
He's the one with the most appeal, in my almost definitely biased perspective.
I think he's the most unique choice the series has to offer that isn't a deconfirmed character.
He has that same "current popularity spark" that's worked for the 2 other series of Nintendo's main 3.
And well it may not mean much, he'll probably be in Hyrule Warriors, like all other major Zelda characters. So... that's kind of a "recurrence"?
Anyways, he does have popularity, uniqueness, and recency at his favor. And popularity and uniqueness is what I personally think should be the most important factors... for a fighting game. People want to see the characters they like, characters they actually want to play as. And if a newcomer doesn't add a new, appealing fighting style, then I'd wish they wouldn't have been added at all.
He's still the one that's getting love from the new fans of Zelda, and many who played Skyward Sword.
OoT-SSB64-MM-Melee-WW-TP-Brawl-SS-Smash4
And I see people saying Ghirahim won't get in because Midna and Zant didn't get in Brawl, and he's the new them.
But as you can see, in Brawl, TP characters had to compete with WW characters, and WW characters won.
But the only new major Zelda title this time in SS, I mean, and ALBW could be competition... but not nearly as much as a WW character was.



What was Skull Kid's 4th game?
And Tetra's 3rd and 4th game?

January this year? or the past 5 years? lol

 

[N3ON]

@ andimidna
Yeah... I've already addressed most of the Japanese part, and I wasn't speaking about western popularity, I know Tingle isn't popular outside Japan. I don't care about Tingle... so I don't really feel like defending him any longer. I'm just going to post this again.

+ Japan likes him
+ Only Zelda character with own sub-series
+ Several appearances in main Zelda titles
+ Not a victim of the AT massacre
+ Did make a recent appearance, even if in a remake

- Rest of the world really doesn't like him (but Japan is Japan - and when a character gets in Smash, they will find a fanbase, even Tingle)

To be clear, I don't particularly want him, but uh... he definitely has enough in his favour...

 

[Arcanir]

I don't know if that puts Tingle on top as far as Smash requests go, but he obviously must have some popularity over there if Nintendo has voluntarily churned out four games starring him...

It's true that might not translate directly to Smash demand, but I also don't think that indicates a lack of desire to see him from Japanese fans, it's not like any other Zelda character can maintain a notable amount of popularity there anyway. Tingle does get requested, I've checked Japanese sites myself. By no means is he a top pick, but he's there. And he's been there for a while, longer than the rise and fall of a flavour-of-the-month character.

I'm not saying he's not popular in general in Japan, the fact that he did get games there (though apparently the second RPG didn't sell that well) does show that. I'm just debating his Smash popularity in terms of request.

Also, I didn't say he didn't get requested, I said that it wasn't that much according to what's been gathered back then. Plus, the thing is even though we know the requests are there, we don't have the information to fully in confidence say that things are shifted in his favor as we don't have the information to fully compare. He still could be losing out to Ghirahim on other sites, or still be behind Toon Zelda. So I don't think we can say for certain that his standing is better between other characters.

Edit: Sorry, just saw your post above so I'll end it here. I will say that he does have points to him that could win his favor, I'm just not sure it's enough.

 

[EmceeEspio]

I've dropped all support for Toon Zelda after hearing there will be no transformations.

I'd just rather have Tetra to be honest. A moveset could easily be pieced together from her dagger, the fact that she's a pirate, as well as all the WW items that Toon Link doesn't already use.

On the other hand, never really liked Ghirahim. If they wanted to do another villain, I've always hoped it would be Vaati. He makes the most sense as far as Villains go for Zelda. But... Given the hints, information we have now, and the recency of the character, looks like ol' Lady Gaga does have a better shot after all.

..... Don't do it, SAKURAI. I'M WATCHING YOU.

 

[Kenith]

And... where is it stated that the Zelda devs favour SS to the others (honestly I wouldn't know)? Didn't they say there were trying something different than past Zeldas with this upcoming one?

First off, they said they were "trying something different" with SS too.

Secondly, it's never directly stated, of course not.

But Miyamoto tried very hard to make it "better than OoT". So much so, he said he would "retire" if it didn't. He picked the artstyle himself, and generally, when Miyamoto has something he likes, he makes sure they use it all the time (horse riding = Epona)

Many say Skyward Sword was "unpopular" so why does Nintendo insist on using it's assets and enemies still? When there are two newer games to promote out already? And a new one in less than two months?

And why

So... wouldn't that support Tingle then? Yeah, not all of Ghirahim's popularity might translate into Smash demand, but that can also be said of Tingle, only to a much greater extent, given that, as I said, he did manage to have enough popularity to leverage four games in his sub-series... and enough popularity to be given preferential treatment in Smash previously as the sole AT of the Zelda series...

I'm not arguing against Tingle, I'm arguing for Ghirahim. And I think you are giving him (along with SS as a whole) far too little credit.

 

[andimidna]

January this year? or the past 5 years? lol

If it wasn't from 2014 I would have said the year and not a month...

@ andimidna
Yeah... I've already addressed most of the Japanese part, and I wasn't speaking about western popularity, I know Tingle isn't popular outside Japan. I don't care about Tingle... so I don't really feel like defending him any longer. I'm just going to post this again.

+ Japan likes him
+ Only Zelda character with own sub-series
+ Several appearances in main Zelda titles
+ Not a victim of the AT massacre
+ Did make a recent appearance, even if in a remake

- Rest of the world really doesn't like him (but Japan is Japan - and when a character gets in Smash, they will find a fanbase, even Tingle)

To be clear, I don't particularly want him, but uh... he definitely has enough in his favour...

Well, now that we see 2 Zelda assists...
And one of them is Skull Kid, who doesn't summon The Moon like everybody thought he would...
And we see Melee stages returning like Jungle Japes...

I see it as most likely that Great Bay from Melee is returning as a stage.
Where Tingle and The Moon both appear.
Majora's Mask has always been underrepresented in Smash, hopefully Skull Kid is a sign that things are turning around.

I've seen this theory passed around a bit, what do you think of it?

 

[EmceeEspio]

If it wasn't from 2014 I would have said the year and not a month...



Well, now that we see 2 Zelda assists...
And one of them is Skull Kid, who doesn't summon The Moon like everybody thought he would...
And we see Melee stages returning like Jungle Japes...

I see it as most likely that Great Bay from Melee is returning as a stage.
Where Tingle and The Moon both appear.
Majora's Mask has always been underrepresented in Smash, hopefully Skull Kid is a sign that things are turning around.

I've seen this theory passed around a bit, what do you think of it?

You know this actually works pretty well in foresight. Let's test this theory when E3 rolls around. As for Tingle, he's kind of "meh sure" for me. I think he'd be funny, and I'd probably grow on him, but he's far from exactly my most wanted as far as Zelda's concerned. Also, why is Sheik still here? If she wasn't going to be attached to Zelda we should have gotten Impa to take her place, or better yet, a completely new character.

 

[Will]

I'm really late for the Dillon discussion (Concert Friday's),but I want to say-

Nananananana
Hahahahaha
I was right,and you were wrong

Also,speaking of E3,does anybody know the exact date?
I need to know so I can camp out the night before near my local Best Buy.

 

[ultimatekoopa]

My bet is that if we get a new zelda newcomer it would be ghirahim, here are my reasons
1. He is very popular
2. He has a lot of moveset potential
3. He has the potential to return in the future unlike many other villains as he is the dark master sword and I highly doubt that they will scrap that concept so easily, this already gives him the edge over many other villains
4) Skyward sword is being more represented than twilight princess was in brawl
Now I will just counter a few arguments against him
1) HE IS A ONE SHOT CHARACTER, tecnnically yes, so far he is a one shot character but let's remember that the only zelda game after skyward has been LBW and it wouldn't make sense to put ghirahim in it but like I said before he can appear in a future game of the series, also
already proves this argument wrong, also Sakurai never said a character had to appear in more than 1 game to be in smash, if anyone has a Sakurai quote where he says "One-shot characters can't be in smash bros" please bring it
2) Ghirahim is not important to the series- I would like to disagree, without ghirahim, demise would have never been released which would mean that ganondorf, vaati, etc would have never existed, I would say ghirahim is the 3rd most important villain in the franchise (maybe 4th as you can argue vaati is more important)
3) There is a lot of zelda competion- this is true but let's see his competition
Tingle- Probably one of his main competitors, Zelda is more a western series like metroid which would mean it would make more sense to add zelda character that the western doesn't hate, he is also in danger with the possible return of great bay, tingle is not really that important to the series, he is only a minor character in all his appereances in a similar way to beedle
Impa- Sakurai is only adding unique characters this time around and Impa doesn't have more potential than to be a semi sheik clone
Toon Zelda- She would obviously be a zelda clone ala toon link and now that she cannot become a phamton she stands no chance
Tetra- She is probably unlikely now that zelda and sheik are different characters as it would mean that we would have 3 zelda versions, if people don't want 3 links then why would people want 3 zelda's?
Ganon- Another choice for the zelda newcomer but there is a chance he will be ganondorf final smash again
Vaati- Can really say anything against him
This is only my opinion of ghirahim of course and excuse if you feel like I'm shoving him down everyone's throat because that's not my intention

 

[Will]

3. He has the potential to return in the future unlike many other villains as he is the dark master sword

Wouldn't that make him in...3 games? Being the Dark Master Sword must belong to Dark Link (never played Skyward Sword,just warning you). He (Dark Link w/Dark Master Sword) appeared as an enemy in LoZ II,OoT,and Four Swords,right?

Also,what about Classic Ganon? The one in your description isn't the Ganon WE discuss. This is like Link to the Past Ganon here.

 

[False Sense]

Wouldn't that make him in...3 games? Being the Dark Master Sword must belong to Dark Link (never played Skyward Sword,just warning you). He (Dark Link w/Dark Master Sword) appeared as an enemy in LoZ II,OoT,and Four Swords,right?

Also,what about Classic Ganon? The one in your description isn't the Ganon WE discuss. This is like Link to the Past Ganon here.

No, it's not the same, I believe. The whole "Dark Master Sword" isn't really an official thing to begin with. It's a fan made idea based on how Ghirahim, as a sword, looks almost like a dark version of the Master Sword.

 

[ultimatekoopa]

Wouldn't that make him in...3 games? Being the Dark Master Sword must belong to Dark Link (never played Skyward Sword,just warning you). He (Dark Link w/Dark Master Sword) appeared as an enemy in LoZ II,OoT,and Four Swords,right?

Also,what about Classic Ganon? The one in your description isn't the Ganon WE discuss. This is like Link to the Past Ganon here.

Dark Link probably just used a black sword and I was talking about the ganon of link to the past

 

[Rockaphin]

@ andimidna
Yeah... I've already addressed most of the Japanese part, and I wasn't speaking about western popularity, I know Tingle isn't popular outside Japan. I don't care about Tingle... so I don't really feel like defending him any longer. I'm just going to post this again.

+ Japan likes him
+ Only Zelda character with own sub-series
+ Several appearances in main Zelda titles
+ Not a victim of the AT massacre
+ Did make a recent appearance, even if in a remake

- Rest of the world really doesn't like him (but Japan is Japan - and when a character gets in Smash, they will find a fanbase, even Tingle)

To be clear, I don't particularly want him, but uh... he definitely has enough in his favour...

100% agree. I hate Tingle, but I think he's the most worthy of a Zelda newcomer. I think Vaati would be second due to being somewhat popular, multiple appearances, workable moveset, and he has a villain status. People saying Tingle is impossible due to our hatebase are in denial.

 

[EmceeEspio]

Tetra- She is probably unlikely now that zelda and sheik are different characters as it would mean that we would have 3 zelda versions, if people don't want 3 links then why would people want 3 zelda's?

Vaati- Can really say anything against him /endquote]

..... So long as she's a unique fighter, why would people hate Tetra for being a "Third Zelda"?

Also, go on, tell us what you have to say about Vaati.

 

[ultimatekoopa]

If people would complain if we got 3 links despite there are links that has the potential to be unique then I don't see what would people to complain about 3 zelda's, also I had yet to see a unique moveset for tetra, I don't really have an argument against vaati

 

[G0LD3N L0TUS]

My bet is that if we get a new zelda newcomer it would be ghirahim, here are my reasons

Just took the actual reasons out for space and summarized them a few words before my response.

Merits

(popular) 1. Me may be popular, but so are a ton of other characters that are more deserving to get in Smash.

(moveset potential) 2. Again, so do many other characters deserving. Even when limited to Zelda, characters I consider more worthy are Tingle, Tetra, and even Vaati.

(potential future) 3. Putting in a character based on speculation for future games is a big no-no, imo.

(major SS focus) 4. Wait, what? SS has, so far, a stage, and item(s). TP had a stage, and 3 TP designed characters (dunno if any items. Doubt it). Considering that these designs are returning (pending the 3rd, but....), I really don't see the major SS focus.

De-Merit Counters

(one-shot) 1. I consider Sheik an acception, but I do agree that 1-shots aren't disqualified. I do think, however, it hurts the importance.

("important") 2. That just sounds like a gigantic technicality being abused by the word "important". I really don't think that will be taken into account in Smash Bros.

(competition) 3. A lot of Zelda competition, yeah. Personally, I think Tetra, Tingle, and Vaati all are more appealing. Tingle, again, I think his hatred is heavily overestimated because his games didn't appear in North America. Tetra would be a third Zelda, but this would be 3 Zeldas completely unique to the point of having to know the character to know it's even Zelda. Link's all have limited differences outside of game-exclusive gimmiks. Finally, there's Vaati, who I think just gets hurt by his lack of his human form in 2/3 appearances.[/quote]

 

[Leafeon523]

A Zelda discussion? There hasn't been one of these in a while.

 

[HylianHeroBigBoss]

I would be disgusted if we ended up with toon zelda or tetra, really we dont need 3 zeldas no matter how you slice it. And if anything the presence of a phantom only makes it more plausible that toon zelda would just be a clone.

 

[Starcutter]

I still think Tetra should be distinguished as a seperate entity than "another form of zelda" since even though it's her "destiny" she'd just rather just be tetra.


.....at least that's what I've heard. never actually finished windwaker. did play phantom hourglass though.

 

[False Sense]

I still think Tetra should be distinguished as a seperate entity than "another form of zelda" since even though it's her "destiny" she'd just rather just be tetra.


.....at least that's what I've heard. never actually finished windwaker. did play phantom hourglass though.

Yeah, she kind of ditches the Princess identity after they defeat Ganondorf. She goes back to sailing with her pirates at the end, which leads to the events of Phantom Hourglass, and later Spirit Tracks. It's also worth mentioning that in Spirit Tracks, which focuses on Link and Tetra's descendants, she's still referred to as Tetra and depicted as such despite founding a new line of Zelda royalty.

 

[Opossum]

I still think a retooled Ganondorf will be the only other Zelda character we get this time around.

 

[Kenith]

I still think a retooled Ganondorf will be the only other Zelda character we get this time around.

If he was based on one of these fighting game characters

Which one would you chose?

@GoldeN abstain< I know your position on Akumadorf.

 

[HylianHeroBigBoss]

^can i mix and say id like him to play like a version of nightmare that could throw energy balls?

 

[Opossum]

Personally, I like the basis Golden suggested for Akumadorf. Not sure if he mentioned it, but basically that with the Flame Choke and Dead Man's Volley, and I'd be good.

Alternatively, I still love the idea of him using Ganon's trident.

 

[Rockaphin]

If he was based on one of these fighting game characters

Which one would you chose?

@GoldeN abstain< I know your position on Akumadorf.

Akuma definitely. I'd want to see the raging demon in Super Smash. Die one thousand deaths!

 

[Kenith]

I honestly prefer the Akuma approach because

- It's easier to design and would stand out more than a heavy-hitting sword-user

- It would fit Ganondorf's Smash Incarnation perfectly (without drastically altering him, style wise)

- The Sage Sword has always looked weird on Ganondorf

- I've run out of good reasons

- Akuma is awesome

-TP Ganondorf looks like Demise who looks like Akuma

 

[Baskerville]

I'd much rather take a decloned Ganondorf if it's going to come down to just Tingle.

 

[Kenith]

I'd much rather take a decloned Ganondorf if it's going to come down to just Tingle.

As in, you'd take what is essentially a brand-new Ganondorf over Tingle?

Who wouldn't?

 

[Banjodorf]

I want a re-tooled Ganon so bad. NOW IS THE TIME, Sakurai!

Dead-man's volley ftw!