Character Discussion Thread

[Second Power]

So, since people are posting rosters now, I figured I'd post two. The first assumes the leaks are correct (Sal's and MK8), the second doesn't take leaks into account (it's my ideal roster but plausible, imo). Critique?

Spoiler: Leak

Blue = Veteran
Red = Confirmed Newcomer
Green = Unconfirmed but Leaked
Yellow = Completely my guess/desire

Cuts
Squirtle, Ivy: Low demand without being tied to Charizard
Snake: I believe his creator didn't express interest in his returning? Also less 3rd parties > more.
Lucas: Series is officially completed.

Spoiler: Non Leak

Blue = Veteran
Red = Newcomer

Cuts
Same as above.

 

[jweb22]

Well, since everyone is posting rosters I thought...why not.

This is what I expect the roster to look like plus a few of my hopes for the roster as well.

First, let me explain the bottom line of characters. All of them are what I believe will be the BOSS characters on the different stages. Some of you may question Robin but I didn't have an Icon of Grima so I used Robin for that. If you played FE: Awakening then you should understand.

Now to explaining my playable roster choices.

1) As much as I want Mewtwo to come back, I have no faith in Sakurai to do it. (Plus it would have thrown off the neatness of my roster.)
2) As most people would know from other posts I made, I HATE clone/semi-clone characters. Though I do think Falco will come back I have my doubts on Lucas, but at the same time with customization of moves I don't see the point of Falco and Lucas when they have the same game physics as their original counterparts unlike Toon Link and Ganondorf whose game physics are very different from their originals.
3) I honestly think Ike will be replaced by Chrom. I wouldn't necessarily want that to happen but I didn't want Ike to replace Roy so it's a possibility.
4) I do question the Sal Leaks but right now nothing has happened or been presented to make me think FAKE so for now I put the characters from that leak in the roster. (I honestly like the characters from the leak though, especially Marshall/Chorus Men)
5) I choose Bayonetta over Snake for a few reasons: First, Nintendo has exclusives right to Bayonette 2 so this seems like a great way to promote the upcoming game. Second, Nintendo and Sega appear to have a very good relationship with each other right now. Finally, Sakurai did make a trip to Platinum games which says a LOT, now some of you could think that means Wonder Red but Wonder Red is directly owned by Nintendo so there would be no reason to go to Platinum Games for info however he would probably have to do that for proper info on Bayonetta. (That's just how I see it.)
6) Takamaru IMO is the most obvious Retro rep to go with though I do have a feeling Captain N could get in.

Well, that's it so have at it with the scrutiny.

 

[ultimatekoopa]

So, since people are posting rosters now, I figured I'd post two. The first assumes the leaks are correct (Sal's and MK8), the second doesn't take leaks into account (it's my ideal roster but plausible, imo). Critique?

Spoiler: Leak

Blue = Veteran
Red = Confirmed Newcomer
Green = Unconfirmed but Leaked
Yellow = Completely my guess/desire

Cuts
Squirtle, Ivy: Low demand without being tied to Charizard
Snake: I believe his creator didn't express interest in his returning? Also less 3rd parties > more.
Lucas: Series is officially completed.

Spoiler: Non Leak

Blue = Veteran
Red = Newcomer

Cuts
Same as above.

Doesn't the Rosalina leak says that the roster will be below, above or exactly 48 characters?

 

[Louie G.]

@ Second Power
I dislike Lucas, but there's no good reason to cut him.
Even if mother is complete, it's a bit of a cult classic and Lucas was a well received character.
Also, where is the Mother content on 3DS going to come from? Why, the handheld Mother game, Mother 3. It would be weird having a lot of Mother 3 content on 3DS yet no Lucas.

@ jweb22
I'll say with all certainty that K. Rool will not be a boss. He's either playable or not.

 

[TumblrFamous]

I dislike Lucas

We can no longer be internet friends.

 

[Louie G.]

We can no longer be internet friends.

No Tumblr, I didn't mean it!

Let me explain, at least. I like Mother. I like playing as Lucas. I don't think Lucas really deserves his spot in Smash as much as everyone says he does. Mother is by far the small franchise in Smash, and with series like Metroid and DK having the same representation as Mother it's almost embarrassing.
I also just think the character is overrated. Simply put, I find him boring. Another magic using kid, even if he plays differently than Ness. Which also brings me to my last reason, that everyone wants to make him out to be really unique and interesting, when he really isn't.

Just say you don't like Luigi and we'll be even.

 

[Second Power]

@ U ultimatekoopa I thought the MK8 leaks was 48 characters + 4 cuts, but I may be wrong.

@ Louie G. Going with the above, I simply saw Lucas as the most likely cut with the other 3. The other two candidates are Wolf and Ike. With Wolf, Star Fox is on indefinite hiatus, but there's still potential for another game until they say so. With Ike, he's popular within both fanbases, and Fire Emblem is a live series that has plenty of history. While I don't disagree with Mother being a cult classic, it's still a pretty small series. And it still has Ness. Considering that Lucas is an expy of Ness, that should be enough. Also, have we seen any Mother content other than the Franklin Badge? Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Kenith]

So, since people are posting rosters now, I figured I'd post two. The first assumes the leaks are correct (Sal's and MK8), the second doesn't take leaks into account (it's my ideal roster but plausible, imo). Critique?
Blue = Veteran
Red = Newcomer

Cuts
Same as above.

I'm fixated on your "non-leak" roster now.

+ Vaati, a good, significant, likeable Zelda newcomer.

+ Mach Rider, while I think a retro is unnecessary at this point, he's a good character to add in my opinion, he likely has more potential than Takamaru.

+ Robin, probably the most ideal Awakening character, but also the most unlikely of the three, unfortunately.

- I think Lucas would be retained before Waddle Dee is added. That would give Kirby four characters, and Mother only one, and Sakurai loves his vets.

Overall, no real complaints, except there's no Lucas (with a Waddle Dee in his place).

 

[TumblrFamous]

No Tumblr, I didn't mean it!

Let me explain, at least. I like Mother. I like playing as Lucas. I don't think Lucas really deserves his spot in Smash as much as everyone says he does. Mother is by far the small franchise in Smash, and with series like Metroid and DK having the same representation as Mother it's almost embarrassing.
I also just think the character is overrated. Simply put, I find him boring. Another magic using kid, even if he plays differently than Ness. Which also brings me to my last reason, that everyone wants to make him out to be really unique and interesting, when he really isn't.

Just say you don't like Luigi and we'll be even.

He was my first main. Everything you said went right over my head.

 

[Louie G.]

He was my first main. Everything you said went right over my head.

Well my reasoning is very personal, none of it really relates to anyone else's opinion. I like playing as the character but I just find him overrated.

 

[Kenith]

I don't like Lucas either, though after playing as him I came to appreciate him a little more.

He wasn't an obvious choice, but was well-liked before and after Brawl's release, and I think that is something we should savor.

 

[False Sense]

I'm fixated on your "non-leak" roster now.

+ Vaati, a good, significant, likeable Zelda newcomer.

+ Mach Rider, while I think a retro is unnecessary at this point, he's a good character to add in my opinion, he likely has more potential than Takamaru.

+ Robin, probably the most ideal Awakening character, but also the most unlikely of the three, unfortunately.

- I think Lucas would be retained before Waddle Dee is added. That would give Kirby four characters, and Mother only one, and Sakurai loves his vets.

Overall, no real complaints, except there's no Lucas (with a Waddle Dee in his place).

I'm pretty sure that Robin is the second most likely of the three.

 

[Deleted member]

@ Second Power
Also, where is the Mother content on 3DS going to come from? Why, the handheld Mother game, Mother 3. It would be weird having a lot of Mother 3 content on 3DS yet no Lucas.

Devils Advocate:
-Mother 1+2 for GBA exists, making content from Earthbound for both systems plausible.
-Not everything for stages on Wii U are console based nor is everything for stages on 3DS handheld based (This is the only content that is influenced in this way, by the way). Even if previously mentioned point was inaccurate, stages could still be primarily Earthbound based for 3DS for whatever reason.
-Earthbound's re-release on Virtual Console for Wii U (especially the fact it was released outside of Japan) has been big news, meaning Earthbound could get prime focus this time around as opposed to Mother 3 like in Brawl.
-3DS has been shown to take stages from Melee as "Familiar Stages". Melee had Onett and Fourside as stages, which were Earthbound.



Not that I'm arguing that Lucas is likely to be cut (though his exclusion would not surprise me in the slightest), but still.

 

[Kenith]

I'm pretty sure that Robin is the second most likely of the three.

You prefer Robin, find her likelier than Lucina.
I prefer Lucina, find her likelier than Robin.

Sigh. Impass.

Only if I were to debate the topic, almost always, the concensus would be out of my favor.

As such, I will not take part in a discussion I cannot win!
edit: I am trying to incite sympathy, just in case you were wondering.

 

[jweb22]

@ jweb22
I'll say with all certainty that K. Rool will not be a boss. He's either playable or not.

Wouldn't it be interesting if this happened on the Smash Boxing/Punch Out stage.

 

[Bowserlick]

Lucas and Wolf might be fodder for customizable special moves for Ness and Fox.

Why did this not happen to Toon Link?
Sakurai does feel like there should be an adult and child Link.

 

[False Sense]

You prefer Robin, find her likelier than Lucina.
I prefer Lucina, find her likelier than Robin.

Sigh. Impass.

Only if I were to debate the topic, almost always, the concensus would be out of my favor.

As such, I will not take part in a discussion I cannot win!

Well, actually I would rather like Lucina as well. But looking at the state of things, I find her exceedingly unlikely. I mainly support Robin because I believe that, while s/he's less likely than Chrom, s/he still has a legitimate chance.

 

[Second Power]

Lucas and Wolf might be fodder for customizable special moves for Ness and Fox.

Why did this not happen to Toon Link?
Sakurai does feel like there should be an adult and child Link.

I don't think they'll cut characters just for one feature.

Also, I'm starting to rethink cutting Lucas. Back to the roster maker to see how I can make this work.

 

[Bowserlick]

Lucas to me just does not do enough different from Ness. I would just dissect Lucas, give some of his good features to Ness and call it a day.

Good way to cut character development time for a fresh character.

 

[Kenith]

Well, actually I would rather like Lucina as well. But looking at the state of things, I find her exceedingly unlikely. I mainly support Robin because I believe that, while s/he's less likely than Chrom, s/he still has a legitimate chance.

Really? Why do you think that? Is it the uniqueness?

Honestly, that's the only reason why I think Robin would be considered.

Lucina is highly promoted. Robin doesn't even have official artwork.
Robin is exceedingly unique. Lucina cosplayed Marth.
Robin is the main character. Lucina is never required to be used.
Chrom is Chrom. Neither are Chrom.

 

[Deleted member]

Falco would be taken out for customization purposes before Wolf would.

Especially since Falco was initially designed in essence to be 64 Fox and has less deviation from Fox than Wolf does.

 

[G0LD3N L0TUS]

Not only that, but thinking about Ridley being both playable and a hazard boss...

...Is not as awkward as seeing different alter egos of the same characters fighting each other to me.

I actually would find the roster image more awkward by having duplicate people taking slots, but I definitely see your point.

 

[False Sense]

Really? Why do you think that? Is it the uniqueness?

Honestly, that's the only reason why I think Robin would be considered.

Lucina is highly promoted. Robin doesn't even have official artwork.
Robin is exceedingly unique. Lucina cosplayed Marth.
Robin is the main character. Lucina is never required to be used.
Chrom is Chrom. Neither are Chrom.

It looks like Robin wins two out of three against Lucina there.

 

[Morbi]

Lucas to me just does not do enough different from Ness. I would just dissect Lucas, give some of his good features to Ness and call it a day.

Good way to cut character development time for a fresh character.

Lucas does more different than he does the same. I wouldn't be discontent with a Lucas cut, but it isn't going to happen.

 

[Bowserlick]

The Mariokart rumor that mentioned a roster of 48 mentioned 4 cuts.

But do the cuts mean the character squares (35 minus 4 giving us 31 veterans) or the actual characters (39 minus 4 giving us 35 returning veterans)?

Hmmm...

 

[Kenith]

It looks like Robin wins two out of three against Lucina there.

It seems that way. But there's factors we're not looking at, and each one of those three matters a different amount.

I'm not skilled at persuasion. Most of the people who hang around on these boards hate Lucina, so I'm sure there's someone with a more compelling argument than me.

 

[Bowserlick]

Falco would be taken out for customization purposes before Wolf would.

Especially since Falco was initially designed in essence to be 64 Fox and has less deviation from Fox than Wolf does.

Not sure about that.

When choosing a Fox clone, I think Sakurai mentioned that he chose Falco over Wolf because Wolf would seem like just a gray fox and Falco would distinguish himself by having higher jumps. So, Sakurai already chose Falco over Wolf.

Plus we only saw special moves with the customizable option. Both Falco and Wolf have similar specials to Fox.

 

[False Sense]

It seems that way. But there's factors we're not looking at, and each one of those three weighs a different amount.

I'm not skilled at persuasion. Most of the people who hang around on these boards hate Lucina, so I'm sure there's someone with a more compelling argument than me.

So, are you saying that promotion is the most important of the factors you listed? More so than uniqueness and importance? If so, then what's your explanation for Greninja, a character who has received very little promotion at all, and wasn't even known of before his games were released?

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

Anybody for Meta Knight tomorrow?

 

[Deleted member]

Lucas does more different than he does the same. I wouldn't be discontent with a Lucas cut, but it isn't going to happen.

It should be worth noting that Sakurai designed Lucas just as an "enhanced" version of Ness, and originally just copied over Ness' motions for him with the plan to give Lucas some exclusive ones if there was time. Because of the efforts of the motion designer, he was able to work in some differences.


リュカはネスの強化版というか。まずはネスのモーションをどんどん移植して、時間があったら専用の動きを作る予定でした。ですがモーションデザイナーの努力もあって、色々と違うワザを織り込むことができました。

Again, not arguing for Lucas being cut, but it could very well be possible...

 

[Bowserlick]

Anybody for Meta Knight tomorrow?

I wanna see Wario's flab layers in HD already.

 

[Morbi]

Not sure about that. When choosing a Fox clone, I think Sakurai mentioned that he chose Falco over Wolf because Wolf would seem like just a gray fox and Falco would distinguish himself by having higher jumps. So, Sakurai already chose Falco over Wolf.

Plus we only saw special moves with the customizable option. Both Falco and Wolf have similar specials to Fox.

Wolf only shares a down-special, the reflector/shine. Everything else is different, they might be similar in function, but most neutral attacks in the entire game are "similar in function." So the point is immaterial.

It would be much more awkward to give Fox a giant blaster with a blade, rather than just make his blaster shoot slower with more hit-stun. The same applies to literally every other move. It would be awkward for Fox to have the "evil" reflector over kicking his own. It would be more awkward to impute Wolf's recovery to Fox while Falco has the same recovery.

The side-special might be an option, but again, it would be easier to give Fox Falco's side-special as they are nearly identical in function, usage, and appearance.

 

[Kenith]

So, are you saying that promotion is the most important of the factors you listed? More so than uniqueness and importance? If so, then what's your explanation for Greninja, a character who has received very little promotion at all, and wasn't even known of before his games were released?

No, I never said that...I just implied it.

Also, I forgot popularity. Chrom and Lucina (and Marth if "he" is considered a separate character) always rank at the top in FE character popularity contests. Robin usually ranks high as well, not often is overshadowed by others (Gaius, for example)

So in that case, it would rule in her favour.

And I don't how to explain Greninja because it isn't a character I have looked into.

 

[Deleted member]

Not sure about that.

When choosing a Fox clone, I think Sakurai mentioned that he chose Falco over Wolf because Wolf would seem like just a gray fox and Falco would distinguish himself by having higher jumps. So, Sakurai already chose Falco over Wolf.

Plus we only saw special moves with the customizable option. Both Falco and Wolf have similar specials to Fox.

However, only Falco has similar non-special attacks.
The only thing Wolf has in common are the Specials, and that can easily be changed.

.
The side-special might be an option, but again, it would be easier to give Fox Falco's side-special as they are nearly identical in function, usage, and appearance.

Doesn't Wolf use his claws for it, though?
Or am I mistaken?

 

[Bowserlick]

Wolf only shares a down-special, the reflector/shine. Everything else is different, they might be similar in function, but most neutral attacks in the entire game are "similar in function." So the point is immaterial.

It would be much more awkward to give Fox a giant blaster with a blade, rather than just make his blaster shoot slower with more hit-stun. The same applies to literally every other move. It would be awkward for Fox to have the "evil" reflector over kicking his own. It would be more awkward to impute Wolf's recovery to Fox while Falco has the same recovery.

The side-special might be an option, but again, it would be easier to give Fox Falco's side-special as they are nearly identical in function, usage, and appearance.

The effects of Wolf's specials can be carried over without the same design. Thus, Fox doesn't have to pull out a giant blaster with a blade, but can still carry over the effects. A hit when pulling out the gun and effects of the blast. Plus, the gun can easily be designed with a blade, but with a design matching Fox's other tools.

 

[Morbi]

It should be worth noting that Sakurai designed Lucas just as an "enhanced" version of Ness, and originally just copied over Ness' motions for him with the plan to give Lucas some exclusive ones if there was time. Because of the efforts of the motion designer, he was able to work in some differences.


リュカはネスの強化版というか。まずはネスのモーションをどんどん移植して、時間があったら専用の動きを作る予定でした。ですがモーションデザイナーの努力もあって、色々と違うワザを織り込むことができました。

Again, not arguing for Lucas being cut, but it could very well be possible...

This is true; however, I am under the assumption that he will further "de-clone" Lucas in the same way that he has with Luigi, Ganondorf, and Falco. I don't see the point of adding in a personal character, like Lucas, only to cut him in a future title. Why even bother in the first place, that isn't entirely logical. I can see your point though, it is certainly a possibility. I just find the difference between "it isn't going to happen" and "there is a slight possibility" to be negligible.

 

[Kenith]

Doesn't Wolf use his claws for it, though?
Or am I mistaken?

No, but it is a lot different than Fox/Falco's.

 

[Deleted member]

This is true; however, I am under the assumption that he will further "de-clone" Lucas in the same way that he has with Luigi, Ganondorf, and Falco. I don't see the point of adding in a personal character, like Lucas, only to cut him in a future title. Why even bother in the first place, that isn't entirely logical. I can see your point though, it is certainly a possibility. I just find the difference between "it isn't going to happen" and "there is a slight possibility" to be negligible.

Well, it was what was planned for Ness.
He wasn't intended to return for Melee while Lucas was meant to be the "new Ness".

Granted, it's not the same situation, as there isn't a case for replacement at hand and both were present for Brawl as opposed to Lucas outright replacing Ness like the initial plan, but still.

 

[Bowserlick]

However, only Falco has similar non-special attacks.
The only thing Wolf has in common are the Specials, and that can easily be changed.

I still think Sakurai would choose to keep Falco over Wolf if he had to cut one.

1. Falco is a popular tournament character.
2. He has been in two games.
3. Visually, he is strikingly different from Wolf.
4. His high jump and slower movements seem more conceptually different from Fox (to me) in terms of movement than Wolf's slower movements and even different movement animations. He feels like a bird while Fox feels more grounded.
5. Wolf doesn't offer much in terms of noteworthy A moves except for his ground covering Forward Smash whose properties can be siphoned off as design space for other Smashes.
6. Sakurai chose Falco over Wolf before.

But this is mainly just speculation and my opinion.

 

[Morbi]

However, only Falco has similar non-special attacks.
The only thing Wolf has in common are the Specials, and that can easily be changed.


Doesn't Wolf use his claws for it, though?
Or am I mistaken?

I suppose he does; so even that would be an awkward move to impute to Fox.

The effects of Wolf's specials can be carried over without the same design. Thus, Fox doesn't have to pull out a giant blaster with a blade, but can still carry over the effects. A hit when pulling out the gun and effects of the blast. Plus, the gun can easily be designed with a blade, but with a design matching Fox's other tools.

He could. Or he could take the more logical and practical approach.

As Golden mentioned; being a clone doesn't have much to do with your specials. We can see this demonstrated in series such as Fire Emblem, or Star Fox, of course. The normals are a much more prominent aspect of the character collectively. Falco is a definitive semi-clone. Wolf is, at the very most, a pseudo-clone. This is only in relation to his specials. If you were to impute his specials to Fox, you desecrate an entirely diverse character whose specials are already difficult to "translate" into Fox's move-set. If you were to impute Falco's, the same mistake isn't present.