Character Discussion Thread

[False Sense]

No, I never said that...I just implied it.

Also, I forgot popularity. Chrom and Lucina (and Marth if "he" is considered a separate character) always rank at the top in FE character popularity contests. Robin usually ranks high as well, not often is overshadowed by others (Gaius, for example)

So in that case, it would rule in her favour.

And I don't how to explain Greninja because it isn't a character I have looked into.

True, Lucina beats Robin in terms of popularity (although I believe female Robin was right behind Lucina in that poll). So, Lucina has popularity and promotion on her side.

However, to me, I just have a very hard time believing that those qualities will be able to overcome her negatives. Particularly, the fact that she's not the main character of her game. A series like Fire Emblem is constantly changing its cast of characters, including its main protagonists. So, logically, the best way to represent the series in Smash is by having the main character from the most recent game included. There just isn't much room for anything less than a main protagonist, I think. So while Lucina is very far from being a minor character, she's definitely not the main character of her game, and ultimately I believe that is what will keep her out of SSB4. To me, that would be akin to adding Luigi or Peach onto the roster before Mario.

 

[Bowserlick]

I suppose he does; so even that would be an awkward move to impute to Fox.


He could. Or he could take the more logical and practical approach.

As Golden mentioned; being a clone doesn't have much to do with your specials. We can see this demonstrated in series such as Fire Emblem, or Star Fox, of course. The normals are a much more prominent aspect of the character collectively. Falco is a definitive semi-clone. Wolf is, at the very most, a pseudo-clone. This is only in relation to his specials. If you were to impute his specials to Fox, you desecrate an entirely diverse character whose specials are already difficult to "translate" into Fox's move-set. If you were to impute Falco's, the same mistake isn't present.

Specials seem more iconic as moves to the actual character than their A moves. Although Sakurai realized that there is design space in allowing A moves to function as special moves in some cases such as Megaman using his blaster.

Regardless, I think Falco's high jump and spike as well as being a bird conceptually makes him more distinct than Wolf's different animations.

 

[Kenith]

True, Lucina beats Robin in terms of popularity (although I believe female Robin was right behind Lucina in that poll). So, Lucina has popularity and promotion on her side.

However, to me, I just have a very hard time believing that those qualities will be able to overcome her negatives. Particularly, the fact that she's not the main character of her game. A series like Fire Emblem is constantly changing its cast of characters, including its main protagonists. So, logically, the best way to represent the series in Smash is by having the main character from the most recent game included. There just isn't much room for anything less than a main protagonist, I think. So while Lucina is very far from being a minor character, she's definitely not the main character of her game, and ultimately I believe that is what will keep her out of SSB4. To me, that would be akin to adding Luigi or Peach onto the roster before Mario.

Well, one thing to consider is that the two Fire Emblem characters already represented in Smash Bros are Marth and Ike, both of which are part of their own series of games, and have influence over even more.

We've never had a character who only starred or appeared in one game. The closest example we have to that is an Assist Trophy, Lyndis, who noticeably isn't the main character of her own game, but likely the most popular.

Now, I personally think the criteria for selecting Assist Trophies is very similar to selecting playable characters. The difference is that the criteria for playable status is much more strict, for example, characters that do not have overall prominence in their series (read: every popular Zelda newcomer) fit perfectly as an Assist Trophies.

The Lyn Assist Trophy is one thing I think we should all consider when discussing a Fire Emblem character. Her game is associated with a similar situation to Lucina's game, Awakening; it was the first released worldwide. Yet that didn't stop her from being only an Assist Trophy.

 

[Autumn ♫]

Well, one thing to consider is that the two Fire Emblem characters already represented in Smash Bros are Marth and Ike, both of which are part of their own series of games, and have influence over even more.

We've never had a character who only starred or appeared in one game. The closest example we have to that is an Assist Trophy, Lyndis, who noticeably isn't the main character of her own game, but likely the most popular.

Now, I personally think the criteria for selecting Assist Trophies is very similar to selecting playable characters. The difference is that the criteria for playable status is much more strict, for example, characters that do not have overall prominence in their series (read: every popular Zelda newcomer) fit perfectly as an Assist Trophies.

The Lyn Assist Trophy is one thing I think we should all consider when discussing a Fire Emblem character. Her game is associated with a similar situation to Lucina's game, Awakening; it was the first released worldwide. Yet that didn't stop her from being only an Assist Trophy.

Did I hear you just say that Ghirahim fits more perfectly as an Assist Trophy than a character? Who are you and what have you done with Kenith?!

 

[Deleted member]

I don't expect Meta Knight to be revealed tonight.

 

[BKupa666]

I don't expect any characters until E3. Think about it, four veterans plus a newcomer is pretty much what we've been getting every two months for a little while now, and we got our fill for April and May in the Direct. We'll get it again at E3, probably with a new trailer featuring the remaining obvious starters like Wario and Meta Knight.

 

[Kenith]

Did I hear you just say that Ghirahim fits more perfectly as an Assist Trophy than a character? Who are you and what have you done with Kenith?!

I didn't say he fits more perfectly...just that pretty much every one of them fits that role.

Besides, what I wanted you to take from that is that the popular Zelda characters are always regarded as "insignificant".

 

[Louie G.]

I don't expect any characters until E3. Think about it, four veterans plus a newcomer is pretty much what we've been getting every two months for a little while now, and we got our fill for April and May in the Direct. We'll get it again at E3, probably with a new trailer featuring the remaining obvious starters like Wario and Meta Knight.

For the record, I think that the 4 vets and a newcomer were due to the lack of characters in March.
2 vets in March, 2 vets in April, one newcomer...
Then we go back to normal schedule in May.

 

[Morbi]

Specials seem more iconic as moves to the actual character than their A moves. Although Sakurai realized that there is design space in allowing A moves to function as special moves in some cases such as Megaman using his blaster.

Regardless, I think Falco's high jump and spike as well as being a bird conceptually makes him more distinct than Wolf's different animations.

Precisely; so why are you advocating for Falco to retain redundant specials moves and for Wolf to impute his diverse ones? That doesn't make any logical sense.

His jump? That is the reason he shouldn't be cut over Wolf? Really?

 

[Deleted member]

I don't expect any characters until E3. Think about it, four veterans plus a newcomer is pretty much what we've been getting every two months for a little while now, and we got our fill for April and May in the Direct. We'll get it again at E3, probably with a new trailer featuring the remaining obvious starters like Wario and Meta Knight.

To be fair, I actually wouldn't be too surprised if we saw Meta-Knight as an unlockable. Same with Lucas (who I do see as an "obvious" veteran) and Ike (if he returns and Chrom is revealed as a starter).

That said, we could see Wario at the end of the month. It's not like a character needs changes in move set to justify this. Zelda changed moves and she was shown at December.

 

[False Sense]

Well, one thing to consider is that the two Fire Emblem characters already represented in Smash Bros are Marth and Ike, both of which are part of their own series of games, and have influence over even more.

We've never had a character who only starred or appeared in one game. The closest example we have to that is an Assist Trophy, Lyndis, who noticeably isn't the main character of her own game, but likely the most popular.

Now, I personally think the criteria for selecting Assist Trophies is very similar to selecting playable characters. The difference is that the criteria for playable status is much more strict, for example, characters that do not have overall prominence in their series (read: every popular Zelda newcomer) fit perfectly as an Assist Trophies.

The Lyn Assist Trophy is one thing I think we should all consider when discussing a Fire Emblem character. Her game is associated with a similar situation to Lucina's game, Awakening; it was the first released worldwide. Yet that didn't stop her from being only an Assist Trophy.

Well, that's an interesting way of looking at the situation that I haven't really considered before. But, I feel like there's something slightly off with your logic here.

You suggest the idea that choosing Assist Trophies is similar to that of choosing playable characters, but less strict and more open to less prominent characters from series. This would explain why we have characters like Skull Kid, Midna, and Waluigi as Assist Trophies. What I assume you're trying to say here is that because a character like Lyn was chosen to be an Assist Trophy, despite not being a main character, and because the Assist Trophy selection process is supposedly similar to the process of choosing characters, then logically a character like Lucina, who isn't a main character, could be selected to be playable.

However, I actually don't see much of a difference between Skull Kid, Midna, Waluigi, and Lyn as choices as Assist Trophies. They all have a similar condition of not being the most prominent characters in their series; the main difference is that Lyn is limited to a single game appearance in a series that constantly shifts characters completely. And because the selection of Assist Trophies is less strict than actual characters (which makes sense, they're just items, not the main focus of the entire game), it seems reasonable that they would opt for a more popular character from her game over a more important one. In other words, I don't think she really proves anything about possible character choices for Fire Emblem.

 

[BKupa666]

For the record, I think that the 4 vets and a newcomer were due to the lack of characters in March.
2 vets in March, 2 vets in April, one newcomer...
Then we go back to normal schedule in May.

Hmm, fair point, I had forgotten about March's character drought. We may very well get some veterans this month, then see them explained in more detail at E3, though I'm not getting my hopes up.

 

[Kenith]

Well, that's an interesting way of looking at the situation that I haven't really considered before. But, I feel like there's something slightly off with your logic here.

You suggest the idea that choosing Assist Trophies is similar to that of choosing playable characters, but less strict and more open to less prominent characters from series. This would explain why we have characters like Skull Kid, Midna, and Waluigi as Assist Trophies. What I assume you're trying to say here is that because a character like Lyn was chosen to be an Assist Trophy, despite not being a main character, and because the Assist Trophy selection process is supposedly similar to the process of choosing characters, then logically a character like Lucina, who isn't a main character, could be selected to be playable.

However, I actually don't see much of a difference between Skull Kid, Midna, Waluigi, and Lyn as choices as Assist Trophies. They all have a similar condition of not being the most prominent characters in their series; the main difference is that Lyn is limited to a single game appearance. And because the selection of Assist Trophies is less strict than actual characters (which makes sense, they're just items, not the main focus of the entire game), it seems reasonable that they would opt for a more popular character from her game over a more important one. In other words, I don't think she really proves anything about possible character choices for Fire Emblem.

I'm actually arguing two points here: the one you already know, and the notion that perhaps no Awakening character could be seen as prominent enough to be included as playable. After all, they are all restricted to one game.

However, your point seemed to imply that Fire Emblem's constantly changing cast of characters would make very few actually important. As no Fire Emblem character currently playable has only appeared in one game (with the notable exception of Roy, but a lot has changed), I looked at the closest thing to a playable character, an Assist Trophy, where despite her not being important or having any other appearances, Lyn was the only Fire Emblem AT.

 

[Rockaphin]

I'm really eager to hear more about Solo-Zard. I'll miss the Trainer, but I'm starting to prefer Charizard being his own character. I'm wondering if they'll change most of his attacks because he seems to have a new moveset!

Oh and I think we'll see at least one veteran character this month.

 

[Depressed Gengar]

It's more like the exact opposite.
The drought happened BECAUSE of the impending direct.

 

[False Sense]

I'm actually arguing two points here: the one you already know, and the notion that perhaps no Awakening character could be seen as prominent enough to be included as playable. After all, they are all restricted to one game.

However, your point seemed to imply that Fire Emblem's constantly changing cast of characters would make very few actually important. As no Fire Emblem character currently playable has only appeared in one game (with the notable exception of Roy, but a lot has changed), I looked at the closest thing to a playable character, an Assist Trophy, where despite her not being important or having any other appearances, Lyn was the only Fire Emblem AT.

Well, if you're arguing that it's possible that we won't see an Awakening character... Yeah, I won't disagree with you there. It's possible. Probably less than likely, given the popularity and success of Awakening, but it's possible. I was focusing mostly on the point of Lucina, though, and how Lyn affected her chances.

 

[Kenith]

It's more like the exact opposite.
The drought happened BECAUSE of the impending direct.

Yeah, I agree, that seems exactly like something Sakurai would do.

You gotta admit, when you go two months without new info and suddenly there's going to be 40 minute presentation about the game, you'll get a little excited.

 

[EddyBearr]

There are many characters aesthetically similar; it has never hurt their chances. Characters are based on their merit, what they offer, move-set potential, fan demand, relevance to their respective series, pertinence to Smash, whether or not they could potentially incite sales, and uniqueness. Not their physical appearance.

The only time that seemingly mattered was in Melee; with Wolf and Roy.

I don't really agree. I see too much conflict between the three to work with 2/4 of Sakurai's "Four Pillars of Virtue" (Uniqueness and Balance). There's room for endless dynamicity in smash bros, so picking three species within the same family or sub-order, when there's at least a dozen classes to choose from, is a waste of potential.
In the same way, I see three of Marth, Ike, Chrom, and/or Roy as simply not going to happen.

For uniqueness, & "what they offer", that was kinda my point. They're really not all that unique relative to each other within such a dynamic context; they all "offer"/"bring-to-the-table" styles and abilities that are quite similar, which is only compounded by them being from the same series, and only worsened from the series they come from being so dynamic as well.

 

[Glyphoscythe]

If we absolutely have to have a FE newcomer, I would rather it be a villain. I really doubt that it would happen though. Ganondorf needs another evil wizard to play with.

If there's anything in smash that truly needs more representation, it's the forces of evil.

 

[Bowserlick]

Precisely; so why are you advocating for Falco to retain redundant specials moves and for Wolf to impute his diverse ones? That doesn't make any logical sense.

His jump? That is the reason he shouldn't be cut over Wolf? Really?

Wolf doesn't have diverse specials.

Falco has better contrast in concept (bird as opposed to land mammal) and his model looks more distinct. If Sakurai states that they rebuild every character from scratch, I think it makes more sense focusing on Falco rather than Wolf.

We will see if both get in the game or if there is a cut: who remains in short time.

 

[False Sense]

If we absolutely have to have a FE newcomer, I would rather it be a villain. I really doubt that it would happen though. Ganondorf needs another evil wizard to play with.

If there's anything in smash that truly needs more representation, it's the forces of evil.

I agree that a Fire Emblem villain is very unlikely. I doubt we'd see something like that unless we also got the main protagonist of whatever game said villain is from as well, which is kind of pushing it. At this point, I think the closest thing to a Fire Emblem villain we might get is Robin, but that's stretching the idea of "villain" quite a bit, and even then Robin is fairly unlikely.

 

[BluePikmin11]

If we absolutely have to have a FE newcomer, I would rather it be a villain. I really doubt that it would happen though. Ganondorf needs another evil wizard to play with.

If there's anything in smash that truly needs more representation, it's the forces of evil.

I see that as very unlikely, there aren't many villains (besides the Tactitian) that are notable in the FE series that can become playable material.

 

[Andinus]

@Second Power
I dislike Lucas,

Blasphemy!

 

[Rockaphin]

If we absolutely have to have a FE newcomer, I would rather it be a villain. I really doubt that it would happen though. Ganondorf needs another evil wizard to play with.

If there's anything in smash that truly needs more representation, it's the forces of evil.

Hmmm, let me think of a villain that I think would be cool. . . I don't know any villains from Fire Emblem.
While on that topic, I feel the same about Kid Icarus. I'd prefer to have a villain newcomer. Adding to that, I think Medusa or Hades would be neat.

 

[Louie G.]

I see that as very unlikely, there aren't many villains (besides the Tactitian) that are notable in the FE series that can become playable material.

Spoiler alert?

 

[Glyphoscythe]

I agree that a Fire Emblem villain is very unlikely. I doubt we'd see something like that unless we also got the main protagonist of whatever game said villain is from as well, which is kind of pushing it. At this point, I think the closest thing to a Fire Emblem villain we might get is Robin, but that's stretching the idea of "villain" quite a bit, and even then Robin is fairly unlikely.

Exactly. But I can dream!

At the end of the day, I'm happy with Marth & Ike. I would really like another FE assist, however.

 

[Will]

Exactly. But I can dream!

At the end of the day, I'm happy with Marth & Ike. I would really like another FE assist, however.

"You know what they say,The More The Merrier!"

 

[Depressed Gengar]

Wolf may not have diverse specials, but they are more diverse than Falco's.

 

[EddyBearr]

Wolf may not have diverse specials, but they are more diverse than Falco's.

Give Falco Wolf's specials.

 

[MagnesD3]

Wolf may not have diverse specials, but they are more diverse than Falco's.

Wolf normals are what count.

 

[Xzsmmc]

Falco is my favorite Starfox character, and I use him quite a bit, but I agree that Wolf should take priority over him. Wolf is definitely more unique, and more villains are always good.

Spoiler

But if Lucas is cut, I'll be a sad panda.

 

[Leafeon523]

Spoiler alert?

Rule #1 of Smashboards: Play the games where predictions come from, or they will be spoiled. Same thing happened to me for 90% of KIU

 

[Bowserlick]

Wolf may not have diverse specials, but they are more diverse than Falco's.

His side B and Up B have more differences than Falco's. But they are not all that different from Fox's specials.

His B attack seems like a riff on Falco's laser. And his down B is not as different as Falco's.

Isn't Falco's down B the first projectile that reflects? That is very unique among the cast.

 

[Josshu]

I see that as very unlikely, there aren't many villains (besides the Tactitian) that are notable in the FE series that can become playable material.

Agreed. Funnily enough, one of the most prominent and notable villains in all of Fire Emblem is the Black Knight. But because he's from the same game as Ike his chances are nonexistent.

 

[Andinus]

Well, it was what was planned for Ness.
He wasn't intended to return for Melee while Lucas was meant to be the "new Ness".

Granted, it's not the same situation, as there isn't a case for replacement at hand and both were present for Brawl as opposed to Lucas outright replacing Ness like the initial plan, but still.

Honestly, get rid of ness' stupid-ass yo-yo and give him a Lucas up and down smash, and I'd be at peace with that.

 

[Bowserlick]

Sakurai missed an opportunity with not ditching Wolf for Andross (with a body) this time around.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Wouldn't it be interesting if this happened on the Smash Boxing/Punch Out stage.

View attachment 13322

Sakurai not cool enough

 

[Bowserlick]

Do we know based on other roster leaks for Smash games if we are due for a full roster leak yet?

 

[BluePikmin11]

Do we know based on other roster leaks for Smash games if we are due for a full roster leak yet?

Maybe Salromano will, we will going to keep persistent on leaks before E3 though.

 

[Dark Phazon]

@ Bowserlick we already have a real leak one that came to early imo and its most likely the only newcomers.