Character Discussion Thread

[ultimatekoopa]

Really? Where is your evidence that Jiggs almost left?

Where was Jiggs in the subspace emisary?
@ egaddmario But who released Demise? It was Ghirahim, the whole reason the world was in danger was because someone was trying to resurrect the demon king, without ghirahim demise would have never been revived and therefore nothing would have happened
You are forgetting a few things
-Many though that there were a lot of monster below and was a dangerous place, zelda told link that she was planning to live forever in skyloft with him
-It was impossible to reach the land below without those stones that opened to the land below, the humans would have never left skyloft if it weren't for link, And why did Link traveled to the land belows? Because Zelda was missing, And why she was missing? Because ghirahim attacked her, Ghirahim is important to the franchise no matter how you look at it

 

[Muster]

Really? Where is your evidence that Jiggs almost left?

You should know. The forbidden 7 were not the only characters with out of order data. Jiggs toon link and wolf were also in this category.
Jigglypuff was top of the list, so if any characters would make it off the list, it'd be her. This still put her on an acceptable cut list, however.


Also, ness was going to be replace in Melee, not brawl. Mother 3's delay saved Ness from the beginning.

Where was Jiggs in the subspace emisary?
@ egaddmario But who released Demise? It was Ghirahim, the whole reason the world was in danger was because someone was trying to resurrect the demon king, without ghirahim demise would have never been revived and therefore nothing would have happened
You are forgetting a few things

You don't even really need to argue Ghiraham's importance to the series. If he makes it in, it will because Sakurai saw potential in him as a zelda newcomer, not some imaginary criteria set by people online.

 

[Oblivion129]

Where was Jiggs in the subspace emisary?
@ egaddmario But who released Demise? It was Ghirahim, the whole reason the world was in danger was because someone was trying to resurrect the demon king, without ghirahim demise would have never been revived and therefore nothing would have happened
You are forgetting a few things
-Many though that there were a lot of monster below and was a dangerous place, zelda told link that she was planning to live forever in skyloft with him
-It was impossible to reach the land below without those stones that opened to the land below, the humans would have never left skyloft if it weren't for link, And why did Link traveled to the land belows? Because Zelda was missing, And why she was missing? Because ghirahim attacked her, Ghirahim is important to the franchise no matter how you look at it

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Demise didn't exist, would Ghirahim have planned all those attacks? I think a lot of characters are important to the franchise. If the King didn't exist Zelda wouldn't have been born. Ghirahim has popularity, though, which sets him aside from Demise and most other Zelda characters. But Sakurai chooses what he wants by his own criteria and not by our definition of "deserves to be playable". We have Sheik who was in one game (aside from smashbros).

 

[ultimatekoopa]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Demise didn't exist, would Ghirahim have planned all those attacks? I think a lot of characters are important to the franchise. If the King didn't exist Zelda wouldn't have been born. Ghirahim has popularity, though, which sets him aside from Demise and most other Zelda characters. But Sakurai chooses what he wants by his own criteria and not by our definition of "deserves to be playable". We have Sheik who was in one game (aside from smashbros).

And that's why Demise is the 2nd most important villain in the series, only surpassed by Ganondorf, ghirahim would be the 3rd

 

[Deleted member]

Watch, all of you will be arguing for nothing as Groose is the new Zelda character with a fighting style like Kuwabara from Yu Yu Hakusho for some reason.

 

[*The Sensus Crustulum*]

@SaturnGamer64 I am actually loving your idea of Beasts & Louie. I love the idea of Louie being a possible villain since we need more villains. I would be okay if he was a semi-clone unless he had such a different way of handling his moveset. I actually now find it more likely that there is going to be another Pikmin rep. That is all I wanted to say.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

@ egaddmario But who released Demise? It was Ghirahim, the whole reason the world was in danger was because someone was trying to resurrect the demon king, without ghirahim demise would have never been revived and therefore nothing would have happened
You are forgetting a few things
-Many though that there were a lot of monster below and was a dangerous place, zelda told link that she was planning to live forever in skyloft with him
-It was impossible to reach the land below without those stones that opened to the land below, the humans would have never left skyloft if it weren't for link, And why did Link traveled to the land belows? Because Zelda was missing, And why she was missing? Because ghirahim attacked her, Ghirahim is important to the franchise no matter how you look at it

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Demise didn't exist, would Ghirahim have planned all those attacks? I think a lot of characters are important to the franchise. If the King didn't exist Zelda wouldn't have been born. Ghirahim has popularity, though, which sets him aside from Demise and most other Zelda characters. But Sakurai chooses what he wants by his own criteria and not by our definition of "deserves to be playable". We have Sheik who was in one game (aside from smashbros).

If Ghirahim didn't exist, Demise would have remained sealed away by Hylia.
If Demise remained sealed, he would have never fought Link.
If Demise never fought Link, Link would have never defeated him.
If Link never defeated Demise, Demise wouldn't have placed a curse upon Link, Zelda, and himself.
If Demise never placed a curse upon Link, Zelda, and himself, they would never reincarnate.
If Link, Zelda, and Demise never reincarnated, there would be no Ganondorf, and no Legend of Zelda.

Therefore Ghirahim is the most important villain.

And that's why Demise is the 2nd most important villain in the series, only surpassed by Ganondorf, ghirahim would be the 3rd

The fact that Rosalina got in over Toad and Bowser Jr. just shows that importance in one's series doesn't matter all that much.
It's multiple factors. Factors like popularity, how fun they would be to play as, all go on too of importance.

Let's compare Ghirahim and Demise in those 3 categories.
Ghirahim:
- Popularity? YES!
- Fun to play as? YES!
- Importance in Zelda series? Kinda, but a little less than Demise.

Demise:
- Popularity? Meh.
- Fun to play as? Meh. Probably a Ganondorf clone.
- Importance in Zelda series? Yes.

@SaturnGamer64 I am actually loving your idea of Beasts & Louie. I love the idea of Louie being a possible villain since we need more villains. I would be okay if he was a semi-clone unless he had such a different way of handling his moveset. I actually now find it more likely that there is going to be another Pikmin rep. That is all I wanted to say.

I really doubt there will be a second Pikmin rep.
If there is a second Pikmin character, there should be a second Animal Crossing one too. They are both decently popular Nintendo series (Animal Crossing more) that originated on the GameCube. They should remain equal.

 

[ShichibukaiJimbe]

Well, there is no evidence, but Jigglypuff is normally one of the first characters you unlock in 64 and Melee, and in Brawl she was one of the last, not in the main story of the Subspace Emissary, and was never revealed until the game came out. So there's no evidence, but there's really strong coincidence.

There is evidence, in the amount of data on each character. It was the one that was clearly added the last, and if you take into account that Mewtwo was the forbidden 7, it was clear that at one point one of the two get in over the other, possibly because one was easier to make than the other.

Well, I need a source to believe that Jiggs was almost cut. Does anyone have one?

This has already been discussed for ages by now and should be common sense. Researching anything online shouldn't be that hard

 

[*The Sensus Crustulum*]

If Ghirahim didn't exist, Demise would have remained sealed away by Hylia.
I really doubt there will be a second Pikmin rep.
If there is a second Pikmin character, there should be a second Animal Crossing one too. They are both decently popular Nintendo series (Animal Crossing more) that originated on the GameCube. They should remain equal.

I really doubt it too but Saturn gave me little hope that there will be a 2nd Pikmin rep. As for the AC bit, I don't believe in balance in the roster. Sakurai contradicted the point so many times, I really wouldn't be surprised if Star Fox had 4 characters and Donkey Kong having 2.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

I really doubt it too but Saturn gave me little hope that there will be a 2nd Pikmin rep. As for the AC bit, I don't believe in balance in the roster. Sakurai contradicted the point so many times, I really wouldn't be surprised if Star Fox had 4 characters and Donkey Kong having 2.

I don't really remember Sakurai contradicting roster balancing.
Could you please show me what made you think this?

 

[*The Sensus Crustulum*]

I don't really remember Sakurai contradicting roster balancing.
Could you please show me what made you think this?

Mother really not needing a second rep at all in Brawl (This actually helps my Pikmin point).
I guess that is it really. Maybe I overstated a little bit. Oops.

 

[NickerBocker]

Guys, Triforce is the most important Zelda character.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

Mother really not needing a second rep at all in Brawl (This actually helps my Pikmin point).
I guess that is it really. Maybe I overstated a little bit. Oops.

You have to remember that Mother wasn't really a dead franchise in the time of Brawl.
It was similar to what Kirby was, a series that was still "active," but just hadn't had a game in a while due to certain issues.

Mother wasn't dead until after Mother 3, when people realized that Mother 4 wasn't coming any time soon.

Guys, Triforce is the most important Zelda character.

Wouldn't that mean the 3 goddesses are?
That'd actually make for a pretty epic assist trophy when I think about.

 

[Pacack]

Guys, Triforce is the most important Zelda character.

No, the Goddesses are all more important than it! If it wasn't for the Goddesses, then the Triforce wouldn't exist in the first place!

Spoiler

 

[Louie G.]

Really? Does Ness mean that much to you? I mean I will be disappointed if there is no Lucas, but I'll get over it.
I think sakurai canceling the game would piss me off the most.

I just don't like Lucas too much.
He's kinda overrated in my eyes, even if his moveset is different than Ness's there's still not a lot to make him an interesting character.
Everyone loves him though, so who am I to complain.
And yes, Ness means that much to me, almost as much as Captain Falcon.

 

[*The Sensus Crustulum*]

You have to remember that Mother wasn't really a dead franchise in the time of Brawl.
It was similar to what Kirby was, a series that was still "active," but just hadn't had a game in a while due to certain issues.

Mother wasn't dead until after Mother 3, when people realized that Mother 4 wasn't coming any time soon.

.

Well I feel like Pikmin and Mother are in the same boat right now.
But I was in pre-Brawl so I wonder, did people think a second Mother rep was likely?

 

[N3ON]

Well I feel like Pikmin and Mother are in the same boat right now.
But I was in pre-Brawl so I wonder, did people think a second Mother rep was likely?

If they were aware of Lucas's popularity they did. Many thought we'd even get a third, such as Claus.

Mother did technically die after Mother 3, but since Brawl was only two years after that, most people didn't really see it as a dead series at that time.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Watch, all of you will be arguing for nothing as Groose is the new Zelda character with a fighting style like Kuwabara from Yu Yu Hakusho for some reason.

Nah, Kuwabara's not that popular in Japan. Give Groose Kurama's fighting style since it will be so fabulous!

 

[Mega Bidoof]

Well I feel like Pikmin and Mother are in the same boat right now.
But I was in pre-Brawl so I wonder, did people think a second Mother rep was likely?

I'm not sure, as I wasn't here in pre-Brawl days, but in hindsight, I would have predicted Lucas, as Sakurai planned him for Melee but didn't add him because he game wasn't out.
So I would have thought he would add him once his game came out, which he did in Brawl.

I wouldn't really consider Pikmin and Mother in the same boat.
In Brawl times, they were both smaller but still decently known series, so each one got a newcomer.
But now, Mother is dead (like F-Zero), but Pikmin is still a smaller series (like Animal Crossing).
But either way, neither series needs a newcomer right now.

 

[N3ON]

I wouldn't exactly call AC a smaller series anymore considering its been outselling the majority of other Nintendo series as of late.

Definitely not on the same level as Pikmin. If AC were a series a bit more conducive to a game like Smash, and had two prime candidates, I could've very easily seen it get both.

 

[Oniric Spriter]

AC, Mother, Pikmin, Starfox and F-Zero are perfectly fine as they are imo.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

AC, Mother, Pikmin, Starfox and F-Zero are perfectly fine as they are imo.

Nah, we need Ness, Lucas, Falco, (you know who), and Captain Falcon.

 

[Morbi]

AC, Mother, Pikmin, Starfox and F-Zero are perfectly fine as they are imo.

Animal Crossing, Mother, Pikmin, Starfox, and F-Zero are not perfectly fine as they are imo.

I say that for one reason, Black Shadow!

 

[*The Sensus Crustulum*]

Animal Crossing, Mother, Pikmin, Starfox, and F-Zero are not perfectly fine as they are imo.

I say that for one reason, Black Shadow!

I sir, second that.
The day he gets in, is the day my life is complete.

 

[Deleted member]

AC, Mother, Pikmin, Starfox and F-Zero are perfectly fine as they are imo.

I think the same way with Metroid.

 

[Morbi]

I think the same way with Metroid.

I think the same way with Donkey Kong.

But seriously though, I do.

 

[egaddmario]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Demise didn't exist, would Ghirahim have planned all those attacks? I think a lot of characters are important to the franchise. If the King didn't exist Zelda wouldn't have been born. Ghirahim has popularity, though, which sets him aside from Demise and most other Zelda characters. But Sakurai chooses what he wants by his own criteria and not by our definition of "deserves to be playable". We have Sheik who was in one game (aside from smashbros).

This. This so hard. And technically Sheik's been in a few games- OoT, OoT:MQ, and OoT3D. Oh, and Collector's Addition.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

AC, Mother, Pikmin, Starfox and F-Zero are perfectly fine as they are imo.

I wouldn't complain one bit if we got Black Shadow.

I completely agree with the other series listed.

 

[Andinus]

I just don't like Lucas too much.
He's kinda overrated in my eyes, even if his moveset is different than Ness's there's still not a lot to make him an interesting character.
Everyone loves him though, so who am I to complain.
And yes, Ness means that much to me, almost as much as Captain Falcon.

To each his own I suppose, I will say Ness has fun air game, it's that stinking yo-yo on the ground that turns me off to him I think, and his f smash is a little too slow for my taste.

 

[Morbi]

To each his own I suppose, I will say Ness has fun air game, it's that stinking yo-yo on the ground that turns me off to him I think, and his f smash is a little too slow for my taste.

Lucas is the more fun character; in my opinion. I enjoyed him much more than Ness and it would be unfortunate to see him omitted from Smash 4 just because his series is "dead." He may play similarly to Ness, but it is overt that they play differently enough and everyone has their preferences.

Ness; I only enjoy Ness in Project M, where he is one of my mains.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

I wouldn't exactly call AC a smaller series anymore considering its been outselling the majority of other Nintendo series as of late.

Definitely not on the same level as Pikmin. If AC were a series a bit more conducive to a game like Smash, and had two prime candidates, I could've very easily seen it get both.

I meant smaller in importance to Nintendo.
Both Pikmin and Animal Crossing were the two biggest franchises to come out of the GameCube, and were both praised for being very innovative and bringing in a whole new style of Games.

Yeah, New Leaf has become one of the best selling 3DS games, so AC IS starting to get ahead of Pikmin in terms of sales and popularity, but I feel that they deserve to have the the same amount of characters, at least for now.
I am rooting for both a Pikmin and Animal Crossing newcomer for SSB5 though.


Here's a basic tier list of how I see different series' priority in terms of character representation:

S Tier:
Mario
Zelda
Pokémon

A Tier:
Donkey Kong
Kirby
Metroid
StarFox
Fire Emblem

B Tier:
Kid Icarus
Animal Crossing
Pikmin

C Tier:
Earthbound
F-Zero
Yoshi
WarioWare
Punch-Out

D Tier:
Ice Climber/Game & Watch/Gyromite
Wii Fit
Sonic
Mega Man
Metal Gear

 

[Oblivion129]

If Ghirahim didn't exist, Demise would have remained sealed away by Hylia.
If Demise remained sealed, he would have never fought Link.
If Demise never fought Link, Link would have never defeated him.
If Link never defeated Demise, Demise wouldn't have placed a curse upon Link, Zelda, and himself.
If Demise never placed a curse upon Link, Zelda, and himself, they would never reincarnate.
If Link, Zelda, and Demise never reincarnated, there would be no Ganondorf, and no Legend of Zelda.

Therefore Ghirahim is the most important villain.

My point was that Ghirahim and Demise had to coexist. What would Ghirahim unseal if Demise didn't exist? It goes both ways.
But he does have popularity and personality.

 

[N3ON]

I meant smaller in importance to Nintendo.
Both Pikmin and Animal Crossing were the two biggest franchises to come out of the GameCube, and were both praised for being very innovative and bringing in a whole new style of Games.

Yeah, New Leaf has become one of the best selling 3DS games, so AC IS starting to get ahead of Pikmin in terms of sales and popularity, but I feel that they deserve to have the the same amount of characters, at least for now.
I am rooting for both a Pikmin and Animal Crossing newcomer for SSB5 though.


Here's a basic tier list of how I see different series' priority in terms of character representation:

S Tier:
Mario
Zelda
Pokémon

A Tier:
Donkey Kong
Kirby
Metroid
StarFox
Fire Emblem

B Tier:
Kid Icarus
Animal Crossing
Pikmin

C Tier:
Earthbound
F-Zero
Yoshi
WarioWare
Punch-Out

D Tier:
Ice Climber/Game & Watch/Gyromite
Wii Fit
Sonic
Mega Man
Metal Gear

Importance to Nintendo? Since it came out AC has always been treated with a fair amount of importance by Nintendo. Nowadays even more so... they have AC stuff on Club Nintendo and even made that AC plaza thing on the Wii U. There's also a fair amount of AC merchandise in Japan. And you can bet they've got an AC in development for Wii U considering how successful the 3DS version was.

The least successful AC game has sold double the amount of the most successful game from both Pikmin and KI. Plus Nintendo has made a concerted effort to have an AC on every system that could handle it since the 64, which is more than most Nintendo series can claim...

It hasn't been around as long as most other series, true, but that's not the only measure of importance. Look how important the Wii series has been to Nintendo.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

My point was that Ghirahim and Demise had to coexist. What would Ghirahim unseal if Demise didn't exist? It goes both ways.
But he does have popularity and personality.

But what if Vaati didn't exist?
Nothing. Absolutely nothing would change involving the other villains.

Therefore Vaati is the least important Zelda villain, even behind others like Yuga and Aghanim.

@ScatmansWorld25

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

I meant smaller in importance to Nintendo.
Both Pikmin and Animal Crossing were the two biggest franchises to come out of the GameCube, and were both praised for being very innovative and bringing in a whole new style of Games.

Yeah, New Leaf has become one of the best selling 3DS games, so AC IS starting to get ahead of Pikmin in terms of sales and popularity, but I feel that they deserve to have the the same amount of characters, at least for now.
I am rooting for both a Pikmin and Animal Crossing newcomer for SSB5 though.


Here's a basic tier list of how I see different series' priority in terms of character representation:

S Tier:
Mario
Zelda
Pokémon

A Tier:
Donkey Kong
Kirby
Metroid
StarFox
Fire Emblem

B Tier:
Kid Icarus
Animal Crossing
Pikmin

C Tier:
Earthbound
F-Zero
Yoshi
WarioWare
Punch-Out

D Tier:
Ice Climber/Game & Watch/Gyromite
Wii Fit
Sonic
Mega Man
Metal Gear

Earthbound on the C Tier? I'm confused about that, we can get Lucas back
Sonic at D Tier I can understand, just curious, but what are you gonna do when/if Nintendo buys SEGA?

 

[Kenith]

Earthbound on the C Tier? I'm confused about that, we can get Lucas back
Sonic at D Tier I can understand, just curious, but what are you gonna do when/if Nintendo buys SEGA?

Please...CliffJumper...not this again....

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

Please...CliffJumper...not this again....

Kenith, it's just a question out of curiosity

 

[N3ON]

People have been saying Nintendo buying Sega is just around the corner since Sega went third-party. If and when it happens, it happens, but until then we shouldn't act like it's imminent.

Nintendo rarely seems interested in acquiring other companies anyway.

 

[Morbi]

Earthbound on the C Tier? I'm confused about that, we can get Lucas back
Sonic at D Tier I can understand, just curious, but what are you gonna do when/if Nintendo buys SEGA?

What SEGA characters are even worth a damn? Aside from Sonic, what do they potentially offer, in your opinion?

 

[Kenith]

What SEGA characters are even worth a damn? Aside from Sonic, what do they potentially offer, in your opinion?

A Phantasy Star Online character would be the best.
It would never happen though.