Character Discussion Thread

[andimidna]

Well, he'd summon Pokemon for single moves, like summoning either a single specific flying type or just that ambiguous bird shape for his recovery and have it use fly.

That's a nice concept...
For a wish roster. If this is supposed to be what you think will happen... I don't know...

Also, Mario had four pure reps in Brawl while Pokemon had six.

On had a transformation gimmick, but there were 4 slots. Measuring characters over-complicates things.
How about Luma, Nana, or Phantom Zelda? Are they all reps too? Nah, it goes by slots.
Do you not consider Sheik and ZSS to be series reps?
Each roster has been visually equal so far. I don't see that changing just because of transformation separations.

Mario has seven characters anyway, Mario, Luigi, Peach, Rosalina, Bowser, Yoshi, and Wario.

So what makes you decide certain series are really Mario series where others (DK) are not?
The icons do matter. They are the final say and Yoshi has been confirmed with his egg logo.

I think the Sal leaks are a load of it. I think he made a lot of guesses and got lucky on a few, someone always wins the lottery you know.

I'm 50/50 on it. I really don't know.

Even if he did get legit info, not all of it may be true. There was a Pokemon leak a while back that got the Fairy type and a lot of other stuff correct... but had a hell of a lot of stuff completely wrong too. I still believe Pac-Man will be in, but I don't believe either Marshal or Miis for a second.

This is the part that gets me too... he could be receiving both correct and incorrect information. Anyone along the line could lie and the information can be twisted... I'm not sure...
And the fact that he only knew "a gen 6 pokemon" and not "Greninja" is suspicious.

Eh, kind of doubt it with Little Mac already there, but he is way more likely than Lip at this point. I'd rather put someone else instead.

Well, last time you posted I recommended Krystal, Dixie, Isaac, and a Zelda newcomer.
Sheik separated, but honestly I don't think the likelihood of a Zelda newcomer changed because of Greninja and solo Charizard possibly resulting in a bunch of Pokemon reps...
And you added Dixie and brought back Krystal. Seems good. There's always been multiple series that gets more than 1 newcomer.
DK is the obvious choice for that now. And I like the possibility of 3 Metroid slots now, despite 2 technically being veterans.
I was going to recommend Isaac, but it looks like you don't want that... I'm personally keeping Lip on my roster for now... I don't know...
Mach Rider is definitely the next retro choice after them. So if you still want 2, I'd go with him.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

If he's summoning Pokemon to do his bidding, then how is he on his own?

That still wouldn't make any sense in my opinion. He's supposed to send his Pokemon out, and swap them out for a different one. It would make little if any sense for him to have Pokemon come out the wazoo to do random attacks.

Regardless, he's done. He was a cool idea for Brawl, but he wasn't made well, and bringing back Charizard was the best possible choice in his absence.

How about Luma, Nana, or Phantom Zelda? Are they all reps too? Nah, it goes by slots.
.

Actually, unless you're being sarcastic, no it doesn't.

The roster is 39 characters. Mario had 4, Zelda had 5, and Pokemon had 6 in Brawl. Even Sakurai has said this. A character or slot technically is equivalent to a moveset.

The select screen on the other hand is simply representing the characters in the game. There isn't any evidence that it matters as of right now. It hasn't up to this point anyway.

 

[Morbi]

That's a nice concept...
For a wish roster. If this is supposed to be what you think will happen... I don't know...

On had a transformation gimmick, but there were 4 slots. Measuring characters over-complicates things.
How about Luma, Nana, or Phantom Zelda? Are they all reps too? Nah, it goes by slots.
Do you not consider Sheik and ZSS to be series reps?
Each roster has been visually equal so far. I don't see that changing just because of transformation separations.

So what makes you decide certain series are really Mario series where others (DK) are not?
The icons do matter. They are the final say and Yoshi has been confirmed with his egg logo.

I'm 50/50 on it. I really don't know.

This is the part that gets me too... he could be receiving both correct and incorrect information. Anyone along the line could lie and the information can be twisted... I'm not sure...
And the fact that he only knew "a gen 6 pokemon" and not "Greninja" is suspicious.


Well, last time you posted I recommended Krystal, Dixie, Isaac, and a Zelda newcomer.
Sheik separated, but honestly I don't think the likelihood of a Zelda newcomer changed because of Greninja and solo Charizard possibly resulting in a bunch of Pokemon reps...
And you added Dixie and brought back Krystal. Seems good. There's always been multiple series that gets more than 1 newcomer.
DK is the obvious choice for that now. And I like the possibility of 3 Metroid slots now, despite 2 technically being veterans.
I was going to recommend Isaac, but it looks like you don't want that... I'm personally keeping Lip on my roster for now... I don't know...
Mach Rider is definitely the next retro choice after them. So if you still want 2, I'd go with him.

Your comparison bothers me; each Pokemon, Charizard, Ivysaur, and Squirtle have their own unique move-sets. Luma, Nana, and Phantom do not, they are not select-able (Nana is a pallet swap; BUT, you are always required to use Popo as well, they weren't developed separately). So Pokemon did have six representatives; you cannot just conveniently forget the development time or unique move-sets, especially in the context of Project M, where you can main whichever one you want (this is irrelevant for Brawl, but many; my sister included, mained Pokemon Trainer for ONE Pokemon).

 

[CalumG]

Regardless, he's done. He was a cool idea for Brawl, but he wasn't made well, and bringing back Charizard was the best possible choice in his absence.

Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Charizard is a main of mine (in Project M at least - no doubt they'll balls him up somehow in Smash 4), but that won't stop me from being upset at Pokemon Trainers removal. Sakurai could have made Red work differently if he so chose. The dude made Wii Fit Trainer work after all, and even Villager (who he himself claimed couldn't work) - if he couldn't make Red work properly as a character, then it was through his own lack of trying.

 

[andimidna]

That would actually support the theory that the Trophy Quizzes hint at other characters.
Since Anna is apparently the only character Tiki speaks to in Awakening.

As someone has already said, she does speak to other characters. However, Anna is the one she's become most closely associated with over time.
That is, out of Fire Emblem characters viable for Smash. Of course she's compared to other Manaketes like Nowi and Nah, and can speak to them, but if they wanted a Manakete in Smash, they would have picked Tiki.
She's also associated with Naga, but that seems pretty impossible.

 

[Starbound]

Does anyone have that interview with Sakurai where he said that Brawl has 39 characters? I think we could've used it for a while now.

 

[JamesDNaux]

They simply would never have done that. That wouldn't represent the character well at all. He's a Pokemon Trainer. If you take his Pokemon away, he's nothing.

They took away his Pokemon. He has no reason to be on his own.

No, no, moment of genius here... Rosalina. Have "Red" fight on the field but give him a smaller Pokemon that attacks alongside him and just stays outside its Pokeball, like the whole Ash and Pikachu thing. Make it work like some crazy combination of Luma, Nana, and Olimar, Red himself would only have a couple of punches and kicks but be basically useless without his Pokemon. The Pokemon itself would act like Nana and have unique moves and more independence from Red like the Luma, the Olimar aspect kicks in with Red's overall uselessness. His specials would all be HM moves, where he summons out four other Pokemon:

Neutral Special - Strength: A Pokemon appears and tosses a boulder, something like a projectile version of Charizard's Rock Smash.
Up Special - Fly: As the name entails, a Pokemon swoops and picks Red up before dropping him off far above his initial location.
Down Special - Surf: A movement based special, a Pokemon appears and you can slide off in a direction on a damaging wave of water.
Side Special - Cut: A Pokemon appears and slashes forward in a similar manner to Zelda's Phantom.
Final Smash - ???: Throws out all his Pokemon for a Triple Finish esque attack? Throws out a sixth Pokemon that mega evolves and is controlled shortly? Dunno.

That would give him five, potentially six different Pokemon, more befitting of an actual trainer, no? Not every trainer has to switch out Pokemon even, hell most people I know just blaze through the game with their starter for the most part. Sakurai has had crazier ideas, so why couldn't this happen? I know it won't though.

That's a nice concept...
For a wish roster. If this is supposed to be what you think will happen... I don't know...

On had a transformation gimmick, but there were 4 slots. Measuring characters over-complicates things.
How about Luma, Nana, or Phantom Zelda? Are they all reps too? Nah, it goes by slots.

It kind of doesn't go by slots, Sakurai himself counts Brawl's roster at 39 characters. Luma, Nana, and Phantom are not full characters anyway.

 

[Morbi]

Does anyone have that interview with Sakurai where he said that Brawl has 39 characters? I think we could've used it for a while now.

Why do we need the interview? You could always just count out all of the characters.

 

[Starbound]

Why do we need the interview? You could always just count out all of the characters.

ikr

I think it'd help end the 35 slots vs. 39 characters debate though.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

ikr

I think it'd help end the 35 slots vs. 39 characters debate though.

I think that most people will agree that Zelda and Shiek are totally different, Samus and Zamus are totally different and the three Pokémon are totally different moveset wise bringing the roster to 39.
That's how I look at it atleast.

 

[Autumn ♫]

Honestly, now that we don't have transformations anymore,I don't see any reason for the slots idea to live on.

 

[kikaru]

Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Charizard is a main of mine (in Project M at least - no doubt they'll balls him up somehow in Smash 4), but that won't stop me from being upset at Pokemon Trainers removal. Sakurai could have made Red work differently if he so chose. The dude made Wii Fit Trainer work after all, and even Villager (who he himself claimed couldn't work) - if he couldn't make Red work properly as a character, then it was through his own lack of trying.

Personally having Red fight on stage and calling upon different Pokemon to assist him, after having his character already established in Brawl, would be a butchery to his character. I would honestly rather have Pokemon Trainer/Red cut than to see him be playable like this.

Yes, Red is ridiculously iconic, but this iteration of a moveset is overly gimmicky, would represent a huge downgrade from his previous appearance, and does not do the slightest justice to his character.

 

[Wanderer from Roseyard]

After E3 2006, the roster prediction I did for Brawl was really close. It felt easy back then because it was fairly obvious what major supporting characters were still missing. This time around, it's a lot less obvious. Just did some digging in an old folder and found one of my earliest predictions for SSB4, and it's just been way off so far. Although I did well in guessing Villager (with a conjectural name), Little Mac and Mega Man, here were some of my others who haven't made it yet, and may not at all:

• Ridley
• Dixie Kong
• Mach Rider
• Balloon Fighter (Or Alice from Balloon Kid!)
• Shulk
• Dillon
• Lolo (Or Bubbles from Clu Clu Land.)
• Emolga
• Dry Bowser
• Simon Belmont

Anyone else want to share any of their wacky older predictions?

 

[JamesDNaux]

Personally having Red fight on stage and calling upon different Pokemon to assist him, after having his character already established in Brawl, would be a butchery to his character. I would honestly rather have Pokemon Trainer/Red cut than to see him be playable like this.

Yes, Red is ridiculously iconic, but this iteration of a moveset is overly gimmicky, would represent a huge downgrade from his previous appearance, and does not do the slightest justice to his character.

So being promoted from a useless background element to an actual character is a downgrade?
After having his character already established in Brawl? Zelda and Sheik were double established by then, yet they got split. Besides, his character? What is this, Super Dating Sim Bros? Nothing is canon in the first place, he doesn't even act like the actual Red, he's just a generic Pokemon Trainer, what's it matter?

 

[CalumG]

My favourite thing is that whenever somebody criticizes the separation of tag characters, or the inclusion of Rosalina/Greninja, they get jumped on for it.

And yet, if I was the one to suggest these very same ideas a few months back, people would think I was a madman. Funny how quick people are to suckle on Sakurai's teat, despite the fact that anybody who even suggested these kinds of ideas 6 months back would be heckled out of town. In fact, I distinctly remember suggesting Red as a character on Nintendo NSider years ago, and got treated as if I was mentally handicapped, right up until Pokemon Trainer was actually announced.

Strange ol' world.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

My favourite thing is that whenever somebody criticizes the separation of tag characters, or the inclusion of Rosalina/Greninja, they get jumped on for it.

And yet, if I was the one to suggest these very same ideas a few months back, people would think I was a madman. Funny how quick people are to suckle on Sakurai's teat, despite the fact that anybody who even suggested these kinds of ideas 6 months back would be heckled out of town. In fact, I distinctly remember suggesting Red as a character on Nintendo NSider years ago, and got treated as if I was mentally handicapped, right up until Pokemon Trainer was actually announced.

Strange ol' world.

Bro if you think that's bad think about if Ridley got announced as a playable character.

 

[andimidna]

[collapse=meh... don't read it if you don't care. I barely care anymore]
I don't understand how people could think representation doesn't go by slots. More Pokemon slots will look visually awkward.
It makes no sense.
Pokemon is not bigger than Mario.
If we can count Charizard, Squirtle, and Ivysaur all separate characters, why not could Red, Nana, and Luma ones?
They have their own moveset and/or animations and required extra time to develop.
There are other characters playable/ involved with the playable character/controllable. Slots seems like the most concrete way to count it.
It is in fact different to have 4 slots with one character having a transformation gimmick compared to having 5 or 6 slots.
Sure those characters exist and are also playable, but it only made sense because it made sense for Zelda to transform into Sheik, and for Pokemon Trainer to switch out Pokemon. What could Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Bowser have done to match that?
(Not actually asking what Mario characters can transform into, you don't have to equalize transformations because they don't contribute to representation like a full slot does)
Things have been able to slide before. And many not-so-great decisions have been made in the past. But I'm expecting more... how do I put this... rules? Less random things? Things to look neater? More formal? I'm not sure how to say it... but there's more riding on this title than there has been before. I think there going to be a bit more careful, so I'm not expecting inconsistencies and anything visually awkward like that...
Pokemon simply hasn't earned more "deserving-ness" than Mario.
I think both will have 6 slots. I think it will be designed/formatted like Brawl's. I think it will be 6 x 9. Just guesses.
I mean... Sakurai also calls Smash Bros for Wii U- Smash Bros 5.
I disagree with that too. They're basically the same game and come out within months. I don't consider both to be separate new titles.

Even if you do consider these series to have had unequal representation in the past, that does not justify things to continue being... wrong.
Seriously, more Pokemon slots than Mario slots just seems wrong to me.
[/collapse]

My favourite thing is that whenever somebody criticizes the separation of tag characters, or the inclusion of Rosalina/Greninja, they get jumped on for it.

And yet, if I was the one to suggest these very same ideas a few months back, people would think I was a madman. Funny how quick people are to suckle on Sakurai's teat, despite the fact that anybody who even suggested these kinds of ideas 6 months back would be heckled out of town. In fact, I distinctly remember suggesting Red as a character on Nintendo NSider years ago, and got treated as if I was mentally handicapped, right up until Pokemon Trainer was actually announced.

Strange ol' world.

You realize A LOT of people suggested Rosalina and Greninja, right?
They're not popular here, but are on other sites.
Seems like everybody who played Pokemon X/Y was obsessed with Greninja for some reason...
And Rosalina was the most requested newcomer on Miiverse up until her reveal.
People hate them here though. Really don't know why.
I could care less if I'm playing as an iconic character.
However, I do care if I'm playing as a likeable character with a unique playstyle.

 

[Morbi]

My favourite thing is that whenever somebody criticizes the separation of tag characters, or the inclusion of Rosalina/Greninja, they get jumped on for it.

And yet, if I was the one to suggest these very same ideas a few months back, people would think I was a madman. Funny how quick people are to suckle on Sakurai's teat, despite the fact that anybody who even suggested these kinds of ideas 6 months back would be heckled out of town. In fact, I distinctly remember suggesting Red as a character on Nintendo NSider years ago, and got treated as if I was mentally handicapped, right up until Pokemon Trainer was actually announced.

Strange ol' world.

I did; mostly in regards to Zero-Suit Samus. I made it quite clear that it was a detriment to her character to be forced into Samus/Zero-Suit after a Final Smash, it forces the player to avoid an incentive or a game-play element. I was mostly disappointed because I used to main Samus in Smash 64 and Melee (oh so very long ago), I couldn't play her in Brawl as I didn't want to learn Zero-Suit. So I dropped the character and it has always bothered me. Same thing with Sheik, but I wasn't entirely bothered. Most people could probably vouch for me, I was a maniacal Impa supporter, I didn't really think that Sheik should be included as part of Zelda's character. I didn't think it was horrible to the game-play, but I felt as though the roster was less cohesive. I also supported Rosalina. So I can see where you are coming from; if you don't adhere to the popular opinion, you get criticized for it. I like to believe that people are inherently hypocritical, it seems unavoidable. This is including myself, of course.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

[collapse=meh... don't read it if you don't care. I barely care anymore]
I don't understand how people could think representation doesn't go by slots. More Pokemon slots will look visually awkward.
It makes no sense.
Pokemon is not bigger than Mario.
If we can count Charizard, Squirtle, and Ivysaur all separate characters, why not could Red, Nana, and Luma ones?
They have their own moveset and/or animations and required extra time to develop.
There are other characters playable/ involved with the playable character/controllable. Slots seems like the most concrete way to count it.
It is in fact different to have 4 slots with one character having a transformation gimmick compared to having 5 or 6 slots.
Sure those characters exist and are also playable, but it only made sense because it made sense for Zelda to transform into Sheik, and for Pokemon Trainer to switch out Pokemon. What could Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Bowser have done to match that?
(Not actually asking what Mario characters can transform into, you don't have to equalize transformations because they don't contribute to representation like a full slot does)
Things have been able to slide before. And many not-so-great decisions have been made in the past. But I'm expecting more... how do I put this... rules? Less random things? Things to look neater? More formal? I'm not sure how to say it... but there's more riding on this title than there has been before. I think there going to be a bit more careful, so I'm not expecting inconsistencies and anything visually awkward like that...
Pokemon simply hasn't earned more "deserving-ness" than Mario.
I think both will have 6 slots. I think it will be designed/formatted like Brawl's. I think it will be 6 x 9. Just guesses.
I mean... Sakurai also calls Smash Bros for Wii U- Smash Bros 5.
I disagree with that too. They're basically the same game and come out within months. I don't consider both to be separate new titles.

Even if you do consider these series to have had unequal representation in the past, that does not justify things to continue being... wrong.
Seriously, more Pokemon slots than Mario slots just seems wrong to me.

I think it's the fact that some characters like Luma really wouldn't work all that well on their own and on the Nana thing yeah they just copy and pasted another ice climber so that didn't take any extra development time.
But I do agree with and respect your opinion.

 

[Oblivion129]

My favourite thing is that whenever somebody criticizes the separation of tag characters, or the inclusion of Rosalina/Greninja, they get jumped on for it.

And yet, if I was the one to suggest these very same ideas a few months back, people would think I was a madman. Funny how quick people are to suckle on Sakurai's teat, despite the fact that anybody who even suggested these kinds of ideas 6 months back would be heckled out of town. In fact, I distinctly remember suggesting Red as a character on Nintendo NSider years ago, and got treated as if I was mentally handicapped, right up until Pokemon Trainer was actually announced.

Strange ol' world.

Rosalina in Smashbros? She'll just be a Peach clone

 

[CalumG]

I like to believe that people are inherently hypocritical, it seems unavoidable. This is including myself, of course.

Yup.

Smash fans are a fickle bunch, I guess. They don't know what they want until it's right in front of them; at which point, they'll say it's what they wanted all along.

I know there's a portion of Smashers who aren't like that, but there are far too many people who seem to be vocally against a character right up until their inclusion - then suddenly that character is in their signature and they're claiming they supported him/her since the beginning!

 

[Deleted member]

My favourite thing is that whenever somebody criticizes the separation of tag characters, or the inclusion of Rosalina/Greninja, they get jumped on for it.

And yet, if I was the one to suggest these very same ideas a few months back, people would think I was a madman. Funny how quick people are to suckle on Sakurai's teat, despite the fact that anybody who even suggested these kinds of ideas 6 months back would be heckled out of town. In fact, I distinctly remember suggesting Red as a character on Nintendo NSider years ago, and got treated as if I was mentally handicapped, right up until Pokemon Trainer was actually announced.

Strange ol' world.

Its just gonna keep happening & happening with every future Smash installment.

Talk about insanity,

 

[Morbi]

Yup.

Smash fans are a fickle bunch, I guess. They don't know what they want until it's right in front of them; at which point, they'll say it's what they wanted all along.

I know there's a portion of Smashers who aren't like that, but there are far too many people who seem to be vocally against a character right up until their inclusion - then suddenly that character is in their signature and they're claiming they supported him/her since the beginning!

Yes; it certainly bothers me to an extent; Toon Link is my most notable example. I was quite literally one of the only people; there were obviously others, not many, that realized that he would be one of the initial reveals (I was using the Wind Waker HD remastered version as evidence for his imminent unveiling). I asserted that he was an entirely different Link, thus Spirit Tracks Link had no bearing on his inclusion. I stated that Brawl's priority list had no correlation to Smash 4's priority list, everyone thought that Toon Link was to be one of the first cuts, this was shortly after Sakurai's infamous "we won't cut characters, but we might not have time to add characters" article. It is so funny, once he was revealed, over half of the usual members stated, "they knew it all along." Not only that, but when Alfonso was revealed to replace Spirit Tracks Link, they reverted back to their initial mentality that it was irrational to have two Link's on the stage at the same time. Double hypocrisy.

 

[CalumG]

Yes; it certainly bothers me to an extent; Toon Link is my most notable example. I was quite literally one of the only people; there were obviously others, not many, that realized that he would be one of the initial reveals (I was using the Wind Waker HD remastered version as evidence for his imminent unveiling). I asserted that he was an entirely different Link, thus Spirit Tracks Link had no bearing on his inclusion. I stated that Brawl's priority list had no correlation to Smash 4's priority list, everyone thought that Toon Link was to be one of the first cuts, this was shortly after Sakurai's infamous "we won't cut characters, but we might not have time to add characters" article. It is so funny, once he was revealed, over half of the usual members stated, "they knew it all along." Not only that, but when Alfonso was revealed to replace Spirit Tracks Link, they reverted back to their initial mentality that it was irrational to have two Link's on the stage at the same time. Double hypocrisy.

I always was a firm believer that Toon Link was gonna get cut. That being said, I still don't think he needs to be in the game - I have the utmost respect for people who did support him and got what they desired, but I still stick to my guns and think he's not fitting. Better that than acting like I wanted/expected him all along when I clearly did not. :v

And yet, the funniest thing is that a large amount of people still can't see the parallels between Toon Link and Ridley, but if/when Ridley gets announced, all the naysayers will act like they knew it all along. The double standards on Smashboards sometimes are so intense it actually hurts my brain to think about. -.-

 

[Deleted member]

I am still utterly shocked Toon Link was not only revealed to be back, but at such an early period.

Though it has less impact on me now since many other things that are more bizarre happened.

EDIT: And I also refuse to believe there are parallels between Toon Link's situation and Ridley's as much as I would prefer him playable than not.

If it turns out that like with Toon Link, I am wrong about Ridley, I will admit that I was wrong. But until then, all I'm seeing is desperation and delusion.

 

[CalumG]

I am still utterly shocked Toon Link was not only revealed to be back, but at such an early period.

Though it has less impact on me now since many other things that are more bizarre happened.

The biggest mindf**k for me is still Zelda's Phantom.

Don't get me wrong, I called the involvement of Phantoms in Smash 4 ages ago - but I didn't expect it to take on the form that it did. I expected Phantoms as either a separate character (given their roles in Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks, they're no less important than Rosalina) or as some kind of extension of a Toon Zelda character (or even, a decloned move for Toon Link). Never in my wildest dreams did I expect Phantoms to be in Zelda's moveset, even after the rather telling Smashbros.com photo that Sakurai released.

Derp derp, I guess.

 

[Morbi]

I am still utterly shocked Toon Link was not only revealed to be back, but at such an early period.

Though it has less impact on me now since many other things that are more bizarre happened.

Precisely, you just never know what is going to happen in Smash; Wii Fit Trainer seems completely natural as of current, I still remember when she was first revealed though. I was acting like such a whiny little *****.

 

[Deleted member]

You realize A LOT of people suggested Rosalina and Greninja, right?
They're not popular here, but are on other sites.
Seems like everybody who played Pokemon X/Y was obsessed with Greninja for some reason...
And Rosalina was the most requested newcomer on Miiverse up until her reveal.
People hate them here though. Really don't know why.
I could care less if I'm playing as an iconic character.
However, I do care if I'm playing as a likeable character with a unique playstyle.

Gee, that sure sounds familiar...

 

[Deleted member]

The biggest mindf**k for me is still Zelda's Phantom.

Don't get me wrong, I called the involvement of Phantoms in Smash 4 ages ago - but I didn't expect it to take on the form that it did. I expected Phantoms as either a separate character (given their roles in Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks, they're no less important than Rosalina) or as some kind of extension of a Toon Zelda character (or even, a decloned move for Toon Link). Never in my wildest dreams did I expect Phantoms to be in Zelda's moveset, even after the rather telling Smashbros.com photo that Sakurai released.

Derp derp, I guess.

I figured if there was a Phantom, it would be Phantom Zelda as her own character.
Seeing the image on the website was disorienting, then seeing it be a move was, like you said, a mind****. Even more so with the whole Zelda/Sheik split.

Precisely, you just never know what is going to happen in Smash; Wii Fit Trainer seems completely natural as of current, I still remember when she was first revealed though. I was acting like such a whiny little *****.

I'd have to say that I found Rosalina and Greninja to have a bigger impact despite WFT desensitizing the prospect of the bizarre and considering the thought that Rosalina's newfound role in 3D World could possibly lead to Smash.
I may have though the possibility was there, but I never thought it would actually happen.

 

[andimidna]

Gee, that sure sounds familiar...

Huh? It does?

 

[Eight Melodies]

Sass should be the next Mario character.

 

[CalumG]

I'd have to say that I found Rosalina and Greninja to have a bigger impact despite WFT desensitizing the prospect of the bizarre and considering the thought that Rosalina's newfound role in 3D World could possibly lead to Smash.
I may have though the possibility was there, but I never thought it would actually happen.

I believe the biggest (and most surprising) difference between Wii Fit Trainer and Rosa-ninja is that there's a precedent for Wii Fit Trainer. We've got "WTF" out-of-the-blue franchises in Smash Bros. plenty of times before. Ness was pretty out-there in Smash 64, Ice Climbers and G&W were pretty unusual choices in Melee and I doubt anybody expected R.O.B. in Brawl given his status as a common enemy (again, I'll play the Ridley card - I may look delusional but I'd rather that than giving up hope). There's plenty of examples of unusual newcomer franchises appearing in Smash Bros.

However, unusual newcomers for veteran franchises is almost unheard of. Nearly every time they've added a character to a franchise that's already in Smash, it's either been a 100% indisputable fan-favourite (Diddy, Bowser, Dedede, the list goes on) or it's been a cheap-and-cheerful clone character to bulk things out. The only true 'surprise' character we've had to a veteran franchise is Pokemon Trainer, and even he shouldn't have been a surprise given his importance in the games and popularity in the Melee polls. But Rosalina and Greninja? They're popular, sure - but they undoubtedly break the mould of what's expected from newcomer additions to existing franchises.

Maybe I'm just a grumpy old ball-bag and I'll learn to love these characters, but in my mind they simply don't sit right (conceptually - I love the look of the actual movesets).

 

[?????????????]

If it turns out that like with Toon Link, I am wrong about Ridley, I will admit that I was wrong. But until then, all I'm seeing is desperation and delusion.

For me, it's definitely not "desperation" because I don't have a strong personal desire for Ridley; I could care less about the entire Metroid series. More than "delusion," I just don't see it as an impossibility yet, so I simply didn't see a point in removing Ridley from my roster until it became an impossibility.

 

[Sobreviviente]

Greninja was unexpected because no one expected charizard to be standalone in first place (but really, who could have guess?). But kalos trainer was indeed expected, some even thought he was going to replace kanto's trainer for some reason, so, there is your greninja

Rossy is the most important mario character since wario and yoshi, you guys still doubt it? ;D
Cant believe how low is cranky support even today.

 

[CalumG]

Greninja was unexpected because no one expected charizard to be standalone in first place (but really, who could have guess?). But kalos trainer was indeed expected, some even thought he was going to replace kanto's trainer for some reason, so, there is your greninja

Rossy is the most important mario character since wario and yoshi, you guys still doubt it? ;D
Cant believe how low is cranky support even today.

People who wanted a Kalos Trainer were undoubtedly in the minority. Similarly, there was a handful of people who wanted Rosalina, but most were content with believing a more popular/important character would be playable.

This is precisely the point I was making. Sure, both characters had supporters before their inclusion - but after their inclusion, people have started to overstate their previous popularity. A handful of people wanted Kalos Trainer playable, and even fewer thought it would be likely, but now that Greninja has been announced, some people act like it was the logical choice all along.

I do want Cranky though. Never much cared for the Croc King, no matter what everybody else has to say about it.

EDIT:

Part of me wants to say Brawl + Mewtwo is the most legitimate choice, but you know what? I don't think it is.

Sakurai already blew things out of the water long ago, first by announcing Toon Link so early on (when Toon Link was considered one of the more likely cuts to a good chunk of the fanbase), and secondly when Rosalina was announced (among most fans either expecting Paper Mario/Junior/Toad/Waluigi or for a lot of people, expecting no Mario newcomers at all). Lucario is here in spite of many expecting his removal (though I wasn't one of them) and we all missed the mark for Wii Fit Trainer.

Collectively, the Smash fanbase is awful at predicting these things. DK/Diddy/Rool, Pikachu/Mewtwo/Jiggs/Trainer/Lucario and Marth/Ike/[Roy/Chrom] seem like the obvious choices, but my gut instinct tells me that it's not going to be that clean-cut or vanilla.

Watch this space.

Huh. Apparently, in a really indirect way, I totally predicted the Pokemon scenario about two weeks before it happened. I suk dix

 

[Sobreviviente]

People who wanted a Kalos Trainer were undoubtedly in the minority. Similarly, there was a handful of people who wanted Rosalina, but most were content with believing a more popular/important character would be playable.

This is precisely the point I was making. Sure, both characters had supporters before their inclusion - but after their inclusion, people have started to overstate their previous popularity. A handful of people wanted Kalos Trainer playable, and even fewer thought it would be likely, but now that Greninja has been announced, some people act like it was the logical choice all along.

I do want Cranky though. Never much cared for the Croc King, no matter what everybody else has to say about it.

You are missing my point: there was a reason why no one expected greninja, and that is this guy wihout that obstacle many would have guessedt, im sure about it, just look how everyone is looking for a grass type pokemon these days...

Cranky is awesome

 

[Deleted member]

If Pokémon Trainer was not part of Smash to begin with, I still would not have guessed Greninja on the basis that muthalovin' CHARIZARD wasn't in yet.

 

[Shorts]

Seems like everybody who played Pokemon X/Y was obsessed with Greninja for some reason...

Depends on who you talk to and where you went. Booboo Keys and Slyveon ring a bell.

And Rosalina was the most requested newcomer on Miiverse up until her reveal.

[citation needed]

I guessed Greninja/Braixen/Chespin

 

[CalumG]

I guess, in a roundabout way, what I'm trying to say is that it annoys me that SSB4 is taking average-popularity characters and escalating their popularity, rather than taking popular characters and working with them.

It's kinda like Sheik. Sheik is undoubtedly only truly popular because of Smash. Sure, she's great anyway, but at this point would people care much about her if she wasn't included in Melee originally? Smash should take Nintendo stars, not make Nintendo stars.

 

[Sobreviviente]

muthalovin' CHARIZARD wasn't in yet.

Well he wasnt hard to guess after Mega Charizard X doesnt it?

Smash should take Nintendo stars, not make Nintendo stars.

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