Character Discussion Thread

[FlareHabanero]

Didn't the Direct say that Luma acts independently when separated from Rosalina? It just wanders around on its own and attacks when Rosalina does.

Luma will act on it's own when separated, but at the same time you still can control it to an extent.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Cuts, at this point I think Ness (or Lucas), Snake, Jigglypuff, possibly Ike, Falco (or Wolf) could be cut.

 

[Kenith]

Cuts, at this point I think Ness (or Lucas), Snake, Jigglypuff, possibly Ike, Falco (or Wolf) could be cut.

Why isn't Jigglypuff in the "possibly" section? She has far more going for her than Falco.

 

[Substitution]

No, Luma isn't his own AI...at least, he's never been stated to have one.

Well, technically, he does.
While he isn't computer controlled like Nana, he still has AI like Nana (both copy the inputs of the player).

I dunno, this kind of discussion is better to have when Golden is around.

Hold up...
@Mr. Yuiitusin!
Your presence is requested by Kenith of the Gatherers.

Well in that case, then yes, he is his own AI, but I distinctly remember him just following her attacks when they're separated and not doing anything else.

I remember him following her, and returning to her after some time.

 

[Sobreviviente]

That clay model of classic Link is funny to me.

Just look at that face. It's like "duuuhhhhhh I'm bored."

And speaking of which, wouldn't Classic Link be a better name for LoZ and LoZ:AoL Link? I feel like Young Link is OoT Link, and nobody else.

I mean, Sakurai could've easily called Toon Link in Brawl "Young Link", like so many people did pre-Brawl release, but he didn't.

-----

Thats why its so awesome :B

And yeah, he could havr a different name, but considering link always changing his look to something more updated and how many people miss YL i think is better just call him that way and give him some fire arrows ;D

It also wouldnt feels so much as "cant stand so many links" because he is a veteran, everyone wins

Spoiler

 

[Deleted member]

@ aldelaro5 I agree, dunno what the logic is behind the Mewtwo pessimism, but it doesn't seem that widespread. It's just the fact Pokemon has a new character and it's not Mewtwo, but it's inarguable that we have plenty of space for another one or two. Jigglypuff is almost certainly going to return, but Mewtwo isn't much worse off than her - he's got far more popularity now than he did for Brawl plus he's not a new character, so putting him in won't be so costly for development time either.

I'd be shocked if Sakurai didn't go for Mewtwo, to be honest - you add back an old veteran, sure you'd probably have to spice it up, but not to the point that his old model/animations don't help. The return feedback and hype is so worth the effort.

 

[Andinus]

Which characters do you think will be cut? Because most likely it's Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Snake. Everyone else has decent chances.

I'm afraid to even say because I don't want people jumping down my throat again at the mere mention of the possibility their precious character won't return, so those jump ins from random people are getting ignored.

But here is what I think, and remember it's just my opinion please!

Squirtle, Ivysaur, Snake, Wolf, ROB, and possibly Game and Watch.

Possibly Ike and/or Lucas, but if they are cut, we will get new characters from their franchises as replacements I'm betting.

There. Now please stay calm this time people.

 

[Deleted member]

No way is G&W cut - look at the concept art first released. I also doubt ROB and Wolf getting cut, because both are original sets and Wolf was only cut from Melee due to similarities with Fox, versus Falco. Aside from that I can understand the others.

 

[Kenith]

@ aldelaro5 I agree, dunno what the logic is behind the Mewtwo pessimism, but it doesn't seem that widespread. It's just the fact Pokemon has a new character and it's not Mewtwo, but it's inarguable that we have plenty of space for another one or two. Jigglypuff is almost certainly going to return, but Mewtwo isn't much worse off than her - he's got far more popularity now than he did for Brawl plus he's not a new character, so putting him in won't be so costly for development time either.

I'd be shocked if Sakurai didn't go for Mewtwo, to be honest - you add back an old veteran, sure you'd probably have to spice it up, but not to the point that his old model/animations don't help. The return feedback and hype is so worth the effort.

The resources for Melee and Brawl don't matter. Sakurai has stated the reason characters take so much work is because they essentially start from scratch every time.

But Mewtwo and Jigglypuff are both definites.

 

[False Sense]

I'm afraid to even say because I don't want people jumping down my throat again at the mere mention of the possibility their precious character won't return, so those jump ins from random people are getting ignored.

But here is what I think, and remember it's just my opinion please!

Squirtle, Ivysaur, Snake, Wolf, ROB, and possibly Game and Watch.

Possibly Ike and/or Lucas, but if they are cut, we will get new characters from their franchises as replacements I'm betting.

There. Now please stay calm this time people.

Definitely not Mr. Game & Watch. As for Lucas, who would they replace him with? There hasn't exactly been a new Mother game since 3. If Lucas is cut, he's almost certainly not going to get replaced.

 

[TumblrFamous]

I'm afraid to even say because I don't want people jumping down my throat again at the mere mention of the possibility their precious character won't return, so those jump ins from random people are getting ignored.

But here is what I think, and remember its just my opinion please!

Squirtle, Ivysaur, Snake, Wolf, ROB, and possibly Game and Watch.

Possibly Ike and/or Lucas, but if they are cut, we will get new characters from their franchises as replacements I'm betting.

There. Now please stay calm this time people.

I only full-heartedly disagree with ROB and G&W. They are not getting cut, or at least have no reason to be cut.

If Lucas is cut, no one will replace him. It'll be both on the roster, or just Ness if Lucas is gone. Ike has a chance of being replaced by Chrom (I guess) but his sheer popularity is a plus for him. As for Wolf, I think he is okay, I mean, yes is a bit of a semi-clone, but not to the extent of Falco. And his priority may change this time around. Look at Toon Link.

The two Pokemon and Snake I can see, however.

 

[aldelaro5]

The resources for Melee and Brawl don't matter. Sakurai has stated the reason characters take so much work is because they essentially start from scratch every time.

But Mewtwo and Jigglypuff are both definites.

yeah the unused mewtwo files won't help for ssb4 but it just shows how they planned originally to have 7 reps (which I doubt is likely here but it just means that there's a possibility).

 

[Deleted member]

The resources for Melee and Brawl don't matter. Sakurai has stated the reason characters take so much work is because they essentially start from scratch every time.

But Mewtwo and Jigglypuff are both definites.

That's not strictly true - we've seen they reused Diddy and Lucario's avatar art in the Direct, for example. Even small things like that, certainly many beneath the surface of what any fan will see, add up to somewhat of a benefit. Although I didn't mean that this was the main thing in Mewtwo's favour - that's obviously his popularity combined with his role in X&Y.

 

[False Sense]

The resources for Melee and Brawl don't matter. Sakurai has stated the reason characters take so much work is because they essentially start from scratch every time.

But Mewtwo and Jigglypuff are both definites.

Well, from a technological standpoint, yes, the characters have to be made from scratch. Though at the very least, Mewtwo's previous status as a Smash character gives Sakurai a basic idea of how to implement him into the game. Sakurai doesn't need to spend as much time developing concepts for Mewtwo since there's already a complete moveset made for him. It'll need some tweaks and updates, but there's at least a base to work off of.

 

[aldelaro5]

That's not strictly true - we've seen they reused Diddy and Lucario's avatar art in the Direct, for example. Even small things like that, certainly many beneath the surface of what any fan will see, add up to somewhat of a benefit. Although I didn't mean that this was the main thing in Mewtwo's favour - that's obviously his popularity combined with his role in X&Y.

Using previous work for a temporary start from from strach is what I would call dummy asset. Basically, you use these asset as a temporary resource before doing the real work this is just so that the character can work and is presentable in the direct for instance. So, if we get mewtwo gameplay, I think that he's mostly ready to be showed with most of his asset being created for ssb4.

 

[Andinus]

So, you think they're just going to cut all those characters and then just replace them with shiny newcomers?

Doesn't that kind of go against what Smash is about?

Umm, basically yeah. 5-6 cuts 8-11 newcomers, 13 new comers if Ike and Lucas go bye bye.

And remember melee to brawl saw 5 cuts (and that is when they still had lots of room to expand, as you already know I believe).

As a smaller roster supporter that's how I see things, sure I could say there will be less cuts but then there will be less new comers, and I would think they have at least 2 new comers left to reveal at this point.

 

[Kenith]

Well, from a technological standpoint, yes, the characters have to be made from scratch. Though at the very least, Mewtwo's previous status as a Smash character gives Sakurai a basic idea of how to implement him into the game. Sakurai doesn't need to spend as much time developing concepts for Mewtwo since there's already a complete moveset made for him. It'll need some tweaks and updates, but there's at least a base to work off of.

Oh, I thought he meant actual data. No, I'm wrong then. In that regard, yes, development time spent designing him would be reduced.

 

[TumblrFamous]

And remember melee to brawl saw 5 cuts (and that is when they still had lots of room to expand, as you already know I believe).

And remember melee to brawl only wanted to cut out two of them from the beginning. Just because they didn't have the available time last time doesn't mean automatically that the same will happen again.

 

[False Sense]

Umm, basically yeah. 5-6 cuts 8-11 newcomers, 13 new comers if Ike and Lucas go bye bye.

And remember melee to brawl saw 5 cuts (and that is when they still had lots of room to expand, as you already know I believe).

As a smaller roster supporter that's how I see things, sure I could say there will be less cuts but then there will be less new comers, and I would think they have at least 2 new comers left to reveal at this point.

So, who are you replacing all those characters with? A lot of the characters you think would be cut have plenty of reason to be on the roster, as well as a ton of people who like those characters. Why bother cutting out what's perfectly fine just for the sake of adding something new?

 

[Deleted member]

Using previous work for a temporary start from from strach is what I would call dummy asset. Basically, you use these asset as a temporary resource before doing the real work this is just so that the character can work and is presentable in the direct for instance. So, if we get mewtwo gameplay, I think that he's mostly ready to be showed with most of his asset being created for ssb4.

It would help in a small way - Sakurai knows what went wrong with the original Mewtwo (honestly, that Melee set is pretty awful in my opinion) and can work to improve what he did then, rather than having to start completely from scratch. You shouldn't underestimate the importance of this, Mewtwo's set has been around for a decade. This is why the changes made to Charizard are so good, because Sakurai has the benefit of player feedback on his side.

But again, this isn't Mewtwo's best asset - that'd be his popularity. Then his relevancy to Pokemon (which is actually important for Pokemon) and then the fact he's a veteran is a distant third. The combination of the three make him very likely.

 

[Andinus]

And remember melee to brawl only wanted to cut out two of them from the beginning. Just because they didn't have the available time last time doesn't mean automatically that the same will happen again.

True, but it doesn't mean it won't happen either.
And the reason I believe so is because I still give weight to what sakurai said about limitations as you know.

 

[aldelaro5]

It would help in a small way - Sakurai knows what went wrong with the original Mewtwo (honestly, that Melee set is pretty awful in my opinion) and can work to improve what he did then, rather than having to start completely from scratch. You shouldn't underestimate the importance of this, Mewtwo's set has been around for a decade. This is why the changes made to Charizard are so good, because Sakurai has the benefit of player feedback on his side.

But again, this isn't Mewtwo's best asset - that'd be his popularity. Then his relevancy to Pokemon (which is actually important for Pokemon) and then the fact he's a veteran is a distant third. The combination of the three make him very likely.

oh well yeah it's true that by creating assets from him since melee (ok I need to check my source but is there was assets in ssb64?) he will most likely learn from his mistake or possible improvement. You make me feel now more hype to see mewtwo!

 

[FalKoopa]

True, but it doesn't mean it won't happen either.
And the reason I believe so is because I still give weight to what sakurai said about limitations as you know.

I don't think he has mentioned roster limitations ever.

It's a bit hard to see the 3DS limiting the game in any way when he managed to make it run at 60fps in 3D. Space isn't an issue either as the 3DS catridges can hold more than a Wii disc.

 

[Andinus]

So, who are you replacing all those characters with? A lot of the characters you think would be cut have plenty of reason to be on the roster, as well as a ton of people who like those characters. Why bother cutting out what's perfectly fine just for the sake of adding something new?

The 6 new comers we have so far plus 3-5 more. 3 is the amount if the roster is 42, 5 if it is 44.

And at this point I only see solid reasoning and evidence for 2 new comers, of course there could be up to 3 more in my book, but as of yet I don't know of any good evidence for other characters who are rumored now.

Any why bother cutting out what is fine now? Well because people want new fresh things. I miss Dr. Mario and Roy, but I got over them getting the axe, and people will get over losing characters they like too if they love this game.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Keep in mind that with Mewtwo, there are two main problems with the character.

His light weight despite his large frame.
His lack of KO options, with many of his killing options having limited range or speed.

Personally I think they should expand on the grapple concept and give Mewtwo better options to kill. However, his tail attacks should at least stay and be expanded on because it gives Mewtwo the much needed reach with his attacks, which is showcased in Project M where his tail attacks allow Mewtwo to attack from a safe distance.

 

[False Sense]

The 6 new comers we have so far plus 3-5 more. 3 is the amount if the roster is 42, 5 if it is 44.

And at this point I only see solid reasoning and evidence for 2 new comers, of course there could be up to 3 more in my book, but as of yet I don't know of any good evidence for other characters who are rumored now.

Any why bother cutting out what is fine now? Well because people want new fresh things. I miss Dr. Mario and Roy, but I got over them getting the axe, and people will get over losing characters they like too if they love this game.

You didn't exactly answer my first question. Who do you think would replace those characters? You've only said six or so newcomers; you haven't said any specific names.

Also, people might not love this game if their beloved characters get the axe. You might notice the very large amount of people who were outraged that Mewtwo (the only character to be cut who wasn't a clone) wasn't in Brawl.

 

[Andinus]

I don't think he has mentioned roster limitations ever.

It's a bit hard to see the 3DS limiting the game in any way when he managed to make it run at 60fps in 3D. Space isn't an issue either as the 3DS catridges can hold more than a Wii disc.

Again, here is the quote.

“It isn’t a matter of ‘if the next game has 50 characters, that’ll be enough.’ There is a certain charm to games that have huge casts of playable characters, but they tend to have issues with game balance and it becomes very difficult to fine-tune each character and have them all feel distinctive…. In terms of quantity, we’ve probably already reached the limit of what’s feasible. I think a change of direction may be what’s needed.” - Masahiro Sakurai

 

[FalKoopa]

Again, here is the quote.

“It isn’t a matter of ‘if the next game has 50 characters, that’ll be enough.’ There is a certain charm to games that have huge casts of playable characters, but they tend to have issues with game balance and it becomes very difficult to fine-tune each character and have them all feel distinctive…. In terms of quantity, we’ve probably already reached the limit of what’s feasible. I think a change of direction may be what’s needed.” - Masahiro Sakurai

He's saying that he doesn't want to go overboard with characters. When Brawl was in development, people expected the roster to be around 45-ish, an increase of 19 from Melee.

The roster size increase was 14 from SSB to Melee, and 13 (planned 17) from Melee to Brawl.

It's just a warning to not expect a roster increase as big as Brawl's. It's reasonable to expect say 10 newcomers. A roster increase of 10 isn't asking for too much, going by previous games.

 

[Andinus]

You didn't exactly answer my first question. Who do you think would replace those characters? You've only said six or so newcomers; you haven't said any specific names.

Also, people might not love this game if their beloved characters get the axe. You might notice the very large amount of people who were outraged that Mewtwo (the only character to be cut who wasn't a clone) wasn't in Brawl.

The 6 new comers we have now.
Plus, there is decent evidence for K Rool and Palutena (as you convinced me).

As for who could be the other 3 new comers I believe possible, could be anybody people have been throwing around.

He's saying that he doesn't want to go overboard with characters. When Brawl was in development, people expected the roster to be around 45-ish, an increase of 19 from Melee.

The roster size increase was 14 from SSB to Melee, and 13 (planned 17) from Melee to Brawl.

It's just a warning to not expect a roster increase as big as Brawl's. It's reasonable to expect say 10 newcomers. A roster increase of 10 isn't asking for too much, going by previous games.

"In terms of quantity, ALREADY reached the limit of what is feasible"
I'm not sure how you take that to mean little to no brawl cuts plus 10 newcomers.

 

[Starphoenix]

Again, here is the quote.

“It isn’t a matter of ‘if the next game has 50 characters, that’ll be enough.’ There is a certain charm to games that have huge casts of playable characters, but they tend to have issues with game balance and it becomes very difficult to fine-tune each character and have them all feel distinctive…. In terms of quantity, we’ve probably already reached the limit of what’s feasible. I think a change of direction may be what’s needed.” - Masahiro Sakurai

You're inserting what you want it to mean rather than understanding what he's saying. Additionally, there are four things you're forgetting:

- This statement came at a time when he did not know what kind of team he was going to assemble for the next games.

- Sakurai has already gone back on several statements he's made in the past (Villager and the ability to remove hazards from stages). Not to say he's a liar, but things change when more (or less) options are available at your disposal than before. Plus, people just change their minds; and Sakurai does it frequently.

- Other fighting games have managed rosters of 50 or more. The statement isn't an admission of technical inability as I doubt Sakurai is less competent than other directors like Nitsuma or Ono.

- Lastly, your missing the entire point and only focusing on a small, anecdotal part of what he said. His goal has always been to do more than just add more stuff and call it a day. That's what he's attempting to emphasize.

 

[AncientTobacco]

"The reality of the situation unfortunately is that there are certain limitations on the 3DS, so we're forced into a situation where we may need to reduce some characters to a certain degree, but we're really working hard to include as many characters as possible." - Masahiro Sakurai

 

[Kenith]

You're inserting what you want it to mean rather than understanding what he's saying. Additionally, there are four things you're forgetting:

- This statement came at a time when he did not know what kind of team he was going to assemble for the next games.

- Sakurai has already gone back on several statements he's made in the past (Villager and the ability to remove hazards from stages). Not to say he's a liar, but things change when more (or less) options are available at your disposal than before. Plus, people just change their minds; and Sakurai does it frequently.

- Other fighting games have managed rosters of 50 or more. The statement isn't an admission of technical inability as I doubt Sakurai is less competent than other directors like Nitsuma or Ono.

- Lastly, your missing the entire point and only focusing on a small, anecdotal part of what he said. His goal has always been to do more than just add more stuff and call it a day. That's what he's attempting to emphasize.

Thank you, I strongly agree with all of this, but was unable to properly word it.

 

[Andinus]

I only full-heartedly disagree with ROB and G&W. They are not getting cut, or at least have no reason to be cut.

If Lucas is cut, no one will replace him. It'll be both on the roster, or just Ness if Lucas is gone. Ike has a chance of being replaced by Chrom (I guess) but his sheer popularity is a plus for him. As for Wolf, I think he is okay, I mean, yes is a bit of a semi-clone, but not to the extent of Falco. And his priority may change this time around. Look at Toon Link.

The two Pokemon and Snake I can see, however.

The only reason I think Lucas would get a replacement is because I cannot see them cutting a franchise with 2 or more reps now, to just one rep, since they have never done that, I could be totally wrong though with that assumption.

 

[False Sense]

The only reason I think Lucas would get a replacement is because I cannot see them cutting a franchise with 2 or more reps now, to just one rep, since they have never done that, I could be totally wrong though with that assumption.

...So why cut Lucas at all? Who could replace him? And why go through the effort of adding a brand new character when the one you intend to replace is fine as is?

 

[Kenith]

...So why cut Lucas at all? Who could replace him? And why go through the effort of adding a brand new character when the one you intend to replace is fine as is?

Well, theoretically, they could add Porky since he is a recurring character, but I would rather they spend their resources changing Lucas to stand out from Ness, mainly because nobody cares about Porky.

 

[FalKoopa]

Well, theoretically, they could add Porky since he is a recurring character, but I would rather they spend their resources changing Lucas to stand out from Ness, mainly because nobody cares about Porky.

jk, I agree. I wouldn't want to see Porky if he comes at the expense of Lucas.

 

[Andinus]

You're inserting what you want it to mean rather than understanding what he's saying. Additionally, there are four things you're forgetting:

- This statement came at a time when he did not know what kind of team he was going to assemble for the next games.

- Sakurai has already gone back on several statements he's made in the past (Villager and the ability to remove hazards from stages). Not to say he's a liar, but things change when more (or less) options are available at your disposal than before. Plus, people just change their minds; and Sakurai does it frequently.

- Other fighting games have managed rosters of 50 or more. The statement isn't an admission of technical inability as I doubt Sakurai is less competent than other directors like Nitsuma or Ono.

- Lastly, your missing the entire point and only focusing on a small, anecdotal part of what he said. His goal has always been to do more than just add more stuff and call it a day. That's what he's attempting to emphasize.

Umm I think I understand what he is saying just fine, are you sure it is not you that is looking into it and hearing what you want to?

Again I said before limitations are not necessarily about how big of a team he has or how big of a budget. Balancing gets harder and harder the more characters you add, more people and money won't necessarily solve that. Do you think there will never be a limit? So say by some miracle we get 50 characters. Are we sure to get 60 or 65 in the next one?

There has to be a limit, and he said that we have reached the limit of what is feasible. Sure there might be some wiggle room, but I think 50 plus characters is completely unreasonable based on his statement.

 

[Kenith]

jk, I agree. I wouldn't want to see Porky if he comes at the expense of Lucas.

This reminds me of a discussion experiment I came up with a while back.

Who would you choose if every represented series in Smash Bros had exactly three or less characters?

Ex. Mario, Peach, Bowser.

 

[False Sense]

This reminds me of a discussion experiment I came up with a while back.

Who would you choose if every represented series in Smash Bros had exactly three or less characters?

Ex. Mario, Peach, Bowser.

Interesting. I guess I'll start controversy by doing the hardest one.

Pokemon: Pikachu, Charizard, Mewtwo.

 

[BluePikmin11]

How do you think Porky will work as a playable character?