Character Discussion Thread

[Starcutter]

miiverse let's just say the smash user's there are alot more critical there so now i do my smash chatting here seems like smashboards is more accepting of tetra

I go to miiverse for a good laugh. Yeah, you will like it here probably a lot more.

ANYWAY back on topic. Anyone else about Kamek?

 

[Reila]

not everyone's opinion has to be the same i support tetra which is a character alot of people get upset over

Tetra is cool and I dare to say she is the only Zelda character that currently has high chances of becoming playable. My view of the character would be a three-characters-in-one, like the Pokémon Trainer in Brawl. Tetra would be able to transform into Toon Zelda and Phantom Zelda, giving her three different gameplay styles and making of her a very unique character in the game. Sadly, they seem to have used Phantom Zelda as an assist trophy, so my view of the character will not happen.

 

[Knight Dude]

As far as villains go, I do want Ridley and King K. Rool, but so do most people on this site. Earlier I mentioned Captain Syrup, so there's another villain I'd be cool with seeing. And Dark Samus too, provided if we had Ridley in as well. Not too sure if you'd count Mewtwo as one, but if you did, then him/it too.

Not too sure how I feel about Kamek. I never really liked him. Maybe if he stood out from the rest of the Magikoopas visually, like @ LaniusShrike had suggested.

 

[Arcadenik]

Other Nintendo villains I support are Medusa, King Hippo, and Team Rocket (with Meowth, Weezing, and Arbok). I love these villains. I'm neutral on Ridley and King K. Rool.

 

[?????????????]

I really like Meowth and Hades.

 

[LaniusShrike]

I would love to see Captain Syrup as well, though considering how much Wario Land got shafted in Brawl I'm not reserving much hope for her.

I think villains are actually who I want in Smash more than any other group... Ridley, K.Rool, Captain Syrup... other villains too, I'm sure. I feel like the villains are just as important as the protagonists.

 

[Headcrab Jackalope]

Villains eh?

Wellllllll, we got dat dere Plasm Wraith, who I think is the best choice for a Pikmin newcomer(or any newcomer in general). It's got unique moves and a unique look. It's extremely cool(and spooky) in Pikmin 3, and it's likely that it will appear in future Pikmin games.

It's just really cool and mysterious and stuff, and it pretty much broke Olimar.

 

[Johnknight1]

The wasn't entirely the point I was trying to convey. If I recall correctly, I also asserted characters like Villager and Rosalina. I was only speaking in terms of Smash 4 mind you (so every character except Mega Man has been an "Anna").

Except we talked about Villager and Rosalina, and lots of people thought both of them stood a chance.

I personally put the Villager's playable chances somewhere in the 30%-50% range. If it wasn't for Sakurai's comments, almost all of us would have expected the Villager.

As for Rosalina, with Toad seemingly "eliminated" and Rosalina playable in Mario 3D World, a lot of people saw the connections. I personally had her chances after that "above 25%" according to one post I made. So they weren't totally out of the blue.

There have been MANY other choices with equivalent situations, albeit mostly retro characters.

Much such characters were the main characters of their franchise, or one of the 2 or 3 most important characters to a franchise. Look at Donkey Kong: the two key protagonists were playable in Brawl. Look at Fire Emblem: The 2 most important/recurring "main characters" were playable in Brawl. Anna isn't any of that.

However, that wasn't always the case. I mean, there were some questionable choices from the VERY conception of Smash such as Ness or the more overt left-field character, my very favorite Jigglypuff.

Ness is the main character of the only MOTHER game released outside of Japan, and quite frankly, Sakurai adores that franchise (as should all of humanity). For Jigglypuff, she was the 2nd most popular Pokémon at the time in Japan. She was super well known. Oh, and Sakurai had a moveset in mind for her that was and still is fantastic.

Plus, Pokémon is wonky. Pikachu is the most popular one, followed by Charizard and Mewtwo, and then after that it's just all wonky and crazy. There's 750 or so of those freaking things now man. Sakurai could reasonably choose like 100 of them and make it work and be unique easily. It's nuts to think about, actually.

No. The maín character is the Mii.

The main Mii/Wii series and Wii Fit are completely different series. And if we're going that they are the same series, then Mario and Donkey Kong are the same series, and Donkey Kong is the "main character".

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Villains eh?

Wellllllll, we got dat dere Plasm Wraith, who I think is the best choice for a Pikmin newcomer(or any newcomer in general). It's got unique moves and a unique look. It's extremely cool(and spooky) in Pikmin 3, and it's likely that it will appear in future Pikmin games.

It's just really cool and mysterious and stuff, and it pretty much broke Olimar.

There are some really interesting theories with the Plasm Wraith.

I'm particularly fond of the Virus Theory.

 

[Headcrab Jackalope]

There are some really interesting theories with the Plasm Wraith.

I'm particularly fond of the Virus Theory.

Yeah, I thought that one was really cool.

 

[Johnknight1]

The 3 villains I would love to see playable in Smash 4 that haven't been playable yet are Ridley, K. Rool, and the Masked Man. Side note: I would prefer to say Samurai Goroh instead, but he's more of an anti-hero.

The only people really advocating for her exclusion are hipsters who just like railing against the more anticipated characters.

Or people who want other characters over Palutena.

But alas, at this point she seems inevitable.

If Toon Link was one of the most likely to return to Smash 4, then Pichu was one of the most likely to return to Brawl.

As for the whole Conductor Link thing, Sakurai seems to have **** upon that logic now with the whole Alfonzo gimmick.

If Ridley is a stage hazard or background character on Pyrosphere and then confirmed as playable, the Alfonzo gimmick better freaking happen on Pyrosphere.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Side note: I would prefer to say Samurai Goroh instead, but he's more of an anti-hero.

Since when has Samurai Goroh done anything heroic?

Wouldn't he be considered a villain albeit one that's not as threatening as Black Shadow or Deathborn?

 

[Johnknight1]

Who were the most commonly discussed characters pre-Brawl that were thought to be cut?

Dr. Mario was #1 followed by Pichu then Roy. After that it went roughly Falco, Ness (pre-the Lucas thing; after the Lucas thing, he was probably #3 after Doc and Pichu probably), Young Link (most people thought he'd become Wind Waker Link), Ice Climbers, Mr. Game & Watch, and then Mewtwo.

Yes, more people thought G&W was gone than Mewtwo. It's funny to think about, actually.

Falco not because of the leak, but because the Star Fox anniversary is on the 21st of this month.

If we have a direct, I think another newcomer would be timed pretty well, but I have my doubts.

Fair point about Falco. As for the Direct, I think if we get one before E3 in regards to Smash that confirms a newcomer, it will be in March or April or around whenever Nintendo does its' "save face" Financial Period ending and/or starting Direct to make Investors happy.

 

[Deleted member]

Since when has Samurai Goroh done anything heroic?

Wouldn't he be considered a villain albeit one that's not as threatening as Black Shadow or Deathborn?

He's not really hero or villain. Hard to give him a label, especially since the main things he's known for are being Falcon's self-proclaimed rival and being a bandit.
I guess that would make him closer to villain, though.

In the Falcon Densetsu continuity, he's an anti-hero, though. Sure, he's still a bandit, but he's got a code of honor here; "Steal, but never kill". He also serves as Rick's/Ryu's mentor and helps him out at times.

 

[?????????????]

By comparison, is Wario really a villain?

 

[Johnknight1]

Since when has Samurai Goroh done anything heroic?

He goes fast.

That makes him a hero in my book.

Wouldn't he be considered a villain albeit one that's not as threatening as Black Shadow or Deathborn?

I consider him more like King Dedede status; sure, they have villainous personal twerks, but they're not really villains.

 

[Angiance]

Villain = Someone with purely evil intention

 

[Kenith]

By comparison, is Wario really a villain?

No, he is just somewhat of a crappy person.

 

[?????????????]

Villain = Someone with purely evil intention

So...Gangrel was not a villain because his intentions were for the good of his own people?

 

[Johnknight1]

By comparison, is Wario really a villain?

Sometimes he is.

Namely when his greed or lust for money makes him do evil things.

 

[Reila]

Villain = Someone with purely evil intention

Not necessarily.

 

[N3ON]

In Smash (at least Brawl) Wario leaned a lot closer to villain than anti-hero or rival.

That could just be how Sakurai sees him, or maybe it's because the amount of playable villains for the Adventure Mode that would fit Wario's role was relatively barren.

 

[Angiance]

Yeah, the way Wario is depicted in the cutscene where Lucas runs away from him made him look scary, like scary-scary

 

[FalKoopa]

Wario seemed much more evil in the SSE that even his own games, I think (I haven't played any Wario Land games, by the way.)

 

[IsmaR]

The real reason Wario is labeled as a villain is because all corporate executives are evil.

That said, villain protagonists exist. Bowser's Inside Story does not make him any less villainous in respect to the series. Likewise, Wario's "not as evil" agenda nowadays doesn't mean he wasn't the villain in SML2: GC, or in the SSE. Hell, doesn't his name translate to "Bad Mario?"

 

[Knight Dude]

Yeah, now that I think of it. You don't see Wario in a full on antagonist role that often. Sure he's still a villain of sorts in some games, but he's normally an anti-hero, doing the right thing for the wrong reasons and all. Y'know what would be cool? A Mario and Luigi game where you can also play as Wario and Waluigi, that'd be cool.

As for the topic on other villains, I guess yet another one I wouldn't mind seeing would be Black Shadow.

 

[LaniusShrike]

Yeah... Wario may have taken Mario's castle, but maybe Wario felt like Mario owning a friggin' castle was unjust! And most of the Wario Land games he's almost like Tomb Raider, hunting down ancient artifacts and fighting pirates. More than anything, really, he just looks sleazy.

 

[AEMehr]

Woah, I already said that I respect Little Mac and see that he does have some sort of potential, I just don't think he's a shoe-in or that he's likely for anything more than being an assist trophy again. I have no problem with him making it as a playable character, I'm just not expecting it.

Okey-dokey, wasn't 100% clear on that. Haven't been able to read all of the discussion lately. So apologies for making ye restate that.

The point was that Fire Emblem is far larger than Punch Out, so it's hard to compare such a small franchise to it. I never said Little Mac being boring was the reason he shouldn't get in, that's just ridiculous, I'm just not a fan of him. I don't find Marth to be that boring anyway, honestly.

Well I was speaking from a gameplay standpoint, so there was no reason to compare the two franchise wise in the first place anyways. But I don't find Marth very boring either, but the two are comparable when it comes to moveset viability. Only difference being one punches and the other swings his sword.

I personally feel that F-Zero doesn't need anyone, as being a racing game, no one really does anything that would warrant a playable position outside of the face of the franchise, who doesn't really do anything related to racing in the first place.
Again though, I'd have no problems with an F-Zero character either, but being a dead franchise that's again, about racing, I hardly see a second character as being likely at all. I think you're reading into the word "needs" a bit too much there too.

I never said it needed anyone?? But eh, forget about it.
F-Zero is dormant, not dead. Miyamoto just doesn't know what to do with them to make them stand out from it's predecessors.

I don't know if you haven't played Adventures, but it plays completely different from the other Star Fox games, and it's the game Krystal originated in. That's why Krystal has more to pull from than other Star Fox characters.

I haven't played Adventures, but I do know about how different it is from other existing Star Fox games. However, the Star Fox franchise at it's core is an On-Rails shooter. It'd be like saying that Zelda is a Hack n' Slash because of Hyrule Warriors. As for Krystal, I guess I can just say I don't personally see her getting in as a playable character?? So I guess she's my Little Mac then.

Like I keep pointing out, I have no problems with Black Shadow (I'd prefer him over Goroh), but this is my prediction roster, I'm not going to put an unlikely character on it. The reason Krystal stands out in the first place is because of Rosalina, an unnecessary new character to a franchise that Sakurai saw potential in. Rosalina is completely unique to the other Mario characters (and the roster as a whole), Krystal would be unique to the Star Fox crew.

This is somewhat funny because I personally believe Black Shadow has more of a chance than Krystal does, but I suppose that is subject to my own opinion. Especially if we consider the Japanese audience, since you're already catering to them with adding in Takamaru and Lip.

Melee wasn't entirely Japan focused, the first game was because they didn't have plans to port it over until it became so insanely popular that they figured it would catch on elsewhere. And even if Sakurai is considering western players, there are a lot of us here that do want Lip, and, if he's considering us, including Lip in Smash would be a way to bring her (unaltered) franchise to us, just like what happened with Fire Emblem.

Melee was going to have Marth and Roy be Japanese exclusive characters. They game has several Japanese exclusive trophies. Melee was moreso catered to the Japanese than it was worldwide.
Now for Lip fans in the west, yeah sure I'm one of them. But I'm not seeing more than one japanese exclusive character showing up as a playable character this time around. It's possible, but I just personally don't see it as probable.

I'm just saying, a character being wanted or not doesn't matter entirely to Sakurai, even if he is third party. Though you need to think about Miss Fit, even if she is first party, think about it: No "hardcore" players cared about her, or even knew about her (except a very rare few), which was exactly why Sakurai added her, and she also brings in more casual people (possibly anyway). There are still casuals who know who Pac-Man is, even if it isn't that many, a character doesn't need to draw a large crowd in the first place, Sakurai has demonstrated this many times.

Wii Fit Trainer is a first party character. Little effort is needed to be done internally to get her in the game. It doesn't matter if people cared for her initially, she's in because Sakurai was interested in mixing things up.
Pac-Man is a third party character. In order to get Pac-Man in the game in any way, shape, or form; many things would need to be done between Nintendo and Namco Bandai. Not many people care for having Pac-Man in Smash Brothers and would drop what they're doing to buy a Wii U / 3DS and a buy a copy of Smash to play as him. Even the Japanese doesn't want him as much as a Tekken or Soul Calibur character (neither of which will even be in the game). The character isn't worth the effort, there isn't enough interest to make him worth while.

Your noting of how a character doesn't need to bring in a huge crowd would work if it wasn't for a third-party character. The character, while he or she needs to be a big deal, must also make people want to play the game. Pac-Man just doesn't have that factor in there, which is the most important factor of a third-party character.

There was no reason for an Animal Crossing stage without a character. There's still a possibility, we seem to be getting a bunch of stages from unrepresented franchises, hell, we even got a Steel Diver item, if that counts for anything.

Animal Crossing stage went without a character in Brawl because Animal Crossing was not believed to have a suitable fighter at that time. If Sakurai didn't follow that mentality in Brawl's development period, we probably would have had Villager in Brawl.

 

[Rebellious Treecko]

The Wii Fit Trainer in the end made sense as a fighter. A not-very-requested fighter from an extremely popular and well-received series.

I'm frankly very sick of people justifying their ridiculous inclusions with the Wii Fit Trainer.

...But would you have said that before her reveal?

----

And to go off what N30n said on a similar subject, what fallacy would that be? Apples and Oranges?

Bidoof isn't wrong, by the way. People would've laughed at the suggestion of WFT last year. She's not on Sandbag's level, but still.

Yeah, now that I think of it. You don't see Wario in a full on antagonist role that often. Sure he's still a villain of sorts in some games, but he's normally an anti-hero, doing the right thing for the wrong reasons and all.

The only games I can remember where Wario was full-fledged villain were in his debut in Super Mario Land 2, and in Wario's Woods.

Y'know what would be cool? A Mario and Luigi game where you can also play as Wario and Waluigi, that'd be cool.

Yep. That'd turn the wackiness up to eleven.

As for the topic on other villains, I guess yet another one I wouldn't mind seeing would be Black Shadow.

Black Shadow, Ridley, K.Rool, Captain Syrup, maybe some others...

Also, the new mods scare me. Sorry to go off-topic, but since others were giving their thoughts earlier: I have neutral thoughts on being a mod. (As if I even have a chance of being one) The respect and access to exclusive threads would be cool, bu there would also be the higher expectations and responsibility. The older staff might look down on me, and I could get de-modded, which would be embarrassing. It is a job, after all.

----

 

[Deleted member]

By comparison, is Wario really a villain?

Wario is......"a puzzle wrapped in an enigma wrapped in yellow".

But to be serious, no. Wario is anti-hero.
He takes down evil deities, dimensional dictators, and saves babes! ......because treasure is involved.
Sure, he is a **** to Mario and even stole his castle, but it's only fair; Wario deserves a castle more and Mario is a jerk that had it coming to him anyways.


Wario is not good.
Wario is not evil.
Wario is Wario.
He is the only one that matters.

So...Gangrel was not a villain because his intentions were for the good of his own people?

That defines Anti-Villain.
A villain that does evil deeds, but for noble purpose.
The thought process is "the end justifies the means".

Wario seemed much more evil in the SSE that even his own games, I think (I haven't played any Wario Land games, by the way.)

To be fair, he was a hired gun.
Wario does whatever he needs to do for the sake of serious moolah.
EDIT: Though technically, Wario is considered a Villain Protagonist in the original Wario Land. He attacked the Black Sugar Pirates unprovoked so he could steal the giant gold statue of Peach they already stole.

 

[Sehnsucht]

Wario is all of us.

 

[LaniusShrike]

Only difference being one punches and the other swings his sword.

Heh, whenever I imagine playing as Little Mac, I do think about him being a strong Marth with shorter range... I made a moveset from the ground up and realized I gave him a counter, a combo, a charge, and an uppercut special with a focus on pretty straightforward standards.

F-Zero is dormant, not dead. Miyamoto just doesn't know what to do with them to make them stand out from it's predecessors.

They should make it a bounty hunting game that just so happens to involve a lot of racing. Your bounties would keep trying to escape in their vehicles and you'd have to chase 'em down and make them crash. Then, you'd either punch them or shoot them into submission. Take down Black Shadow's criminal organization, one bounty at a time.
I would super play that, and I don't even like F-Zero.

 

[JamesDNaux]

I never said it needed anyone?? But eh, forget about it.
F-Zero is dormant, not dead. Miyamoto just doesn't know what to do with them to make them stand out from it's predecessors.

Well, you're advocating Black Shadow, which is coming across to me as you wanting another F-Zero character. The series may not actually be "dead," but it hasn't done anything outside of a mini game in Nintendo Land.

I haven't played Adventures, but I do know about how different it is from other existing Star Fox games. However, the Star Fox franchise at it's core is an On-Rails shooter. It'd be like saying that Zelda is a Hack n' Slash because of Hyrule Warriors. As for Krystal, I guess I can just say I don't personally see her getting in as a playable character?? So I guess she's my Little Mac then.

Well, Adventures was (technically) a main game in the series while Hyrule Warriors is a spin off being made by an outside source, so Adventures counts for something. Krystal was also made into a permanent part of the series, so she is still prevalent.

This is somewhat funny because I personally believe Black Shadow has more of a chance than Krystal does, but I suppose that is subject to my own opinion. Especially if we consider the Japanese audience, since you're already catering to them with adding in Takamaru and Lip.

Like I said, the major reason I see Krystal as having a chance this time is because Sakurai is looking for unique characters. You might be able to come up with a unique moveset for Black Shadow, but that doesn't inherently give him something that Sakurai himself can see, you're making stuff up so as to give him a reason to get in. Krystal already has a staff that gives her good potential, Black Shadow doesn't have anything outright.

Melee was going to have Marth and Roy be Japanese exclusive characters. They game has several Japanese exclusive trophies. Melee was moreso catered to the Japanese than it was worldwide.
Now for Lip fans in the west, yeah sure I'm one of them. But I'm not seeing more than one japanese exclusive character showing up as a playable character this time around. It's possible, but I just personally don't see it as probable.

It was still made with the intention of being ported, obviously games made in Japan are going to cater to Japan more, that's a given. Being exclusive to Japan isn't something that will hold a character back, as each game bar the first has had at least one, as Lucas' game was never released elsewhere.

Wii Fit Trainer is a first party character. Little effort is needed to be done internally to get her in the game. It doesn't matter if people cared for her initially, she's in because Sakurai was interested in mixing things up.
Pac-Man is a third party character. In order to get Pac-Man in the game in any way, shape, or form; many things would need to be done between Nintendo and Namco Bandai. Not many people care for having Pac-Man in Smash Brothers and would drop what they're doing to buy a Wii U / 3DS and a buy a copy of Smash to play as him. Even the Japanese doesn't want him as much as a Tekken or Soul Calibur character (neither of which will even be in the game). The character isn't worth the effort, there isn't enough interest to make him worth while.

Your noting of how a character doesn't need to bring in a huge crowd would work if it wasn't for a third-party character. The character, while he or she needs to be a big deal, must also make people want to play the game. Pac-Man just doesn't have that factor in there, which is the most important factor of a third-party character.

I still don't entirely agree with this, Sakurai's criteria for third party characters are that they must be iconic and must have had a game on a Nintendo console. I'm probably forgetting something here, but I'm pretty sure he didn't have "must make people want to buy the game" as a criteria.

Animal Crossing stage went without a character in Brawl because Animal Crossing was not believed to have a suitable fighter at that time. If Sakurai didn't follow that mentality in Brawl's development period, we probably would have had Villager in Brawl.

That's still regardless of the fact that Animal Crossing did indeed get a stage even though it had no character, even if he thinks it has no suitable character. That's the reason I don't think Little Mac is likely, because there's the possibility that he doesn't think Little Mac is suitable, but still made a stage for him.

 

[Deleted member]

Wario is all of us.

We all have that voice inside us that says "HAVE A ROTTEN DAY!"

 

[Sehnsucht]

We all have that voice inside us that says "HAVE A ROTTEN DAY!"

I sometimes find myself spurting that out loud at the most darndest of times.

 

[Kenith]

Villain = Someone with purely evil intention

Yeah, but how one defines evil is completely opinionated. However, as a whole, there are certain actions and intentions that the human race deems unacceptable.

Like cutting Ike from SSB4, for instance.

 

[Angiance]

Haha, Ike is cool; Ike, Marth, Lyn ^ - ^

 

[Sehnsucht]

Yeah, but how one defines evil is completely opinionated. However, as a whole, there are certain actions and intentions that the human race deems unacceptable.

Like cutting Ike from SSB4, for instance.

I don't want Mike to be cut, either.

 

[Rebellious Treecko]

Yeah, but how one defines evil is completely opinionated. However, as a whole, there are certain actions and intentions that the human race deems unacceptable.

Like cutting Ike from SSB4, for instance.

*Human species.

If I had my way, I'd make cutting any Brawl veteran (or not including any removed Melee character) a crime. (somewhat exaggerating)

Stealing? Eh, tolerable. But saying Mewtwo is outdated? That's just terrible.

I don't want Mike to be cut, either.

Mike Jones was never in Smash in the first place.

Unless you're referring to the sour candy. I loved that stuff. Still wasn't in Smash, though.

-----

 

[Sehnsucht]

Mike Jones was never in Smash in the first place.

Unless you're referring to the sour candy. I loved that stuff. Still wasn't in Smash, though.

-----

I'm talking about Mike and Marty and Kramer. You know, the Fire Emblem Boyz.