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Character Discussion Thread

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It's difficult to say who the newcomer could be, there's no evidence pointing to any one newcomer.

Looking at what has been hinted at, you'd say Ridley and Mii have the best foreshadowing in the form of Pyrosphere/Nintendogs, while Mii has the Find Mii update and the stage where it has yet to appear. Considering the proliferation of Kid Icarus content lately, the same can also be said of Palutena.

If you think K. Rool, Mewtwo or Isaac have a strong chance of getting in, this would be great timing for their reveal. A purely Smash-focused hype builder.

In terms of a surprise, which I find the least likely option, Sakurai may throw us a retro, like Takamaru.

It's a pathetically big pool, but I'm half-confident it'll be one of these characters.
 
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True, Takamaru has a few things going in his favour. As I said, a random retro would be a surprise, but Takamaru has always been on the cards.
 

Zynux

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Like many, I've abandoned the Direct Hype Train, and fully expect Mii to be announced with their explanation to take up more time then necessary. I'm just excited for possible game mechanics explanations.

As for a Awakening newcomer, while I generally don't care, Chrom is expected, but I feel Robin or Anna could potentially add more to the table. (Don't mind me, just adding some fuel to start up the inevitable FE debate :troll:)

Right, I find it's best to get opinions and whatnot from different people as much as possible with questions like these. So here's what I have to say on the matter...

Roy's popularity is sure something in Japan -- it's crazy for a character like Roy when you think about it (now why he become highly requested, well, that's another complicated story which we still haven't found a direct answer to. We can only speculate, but that's for another time haha). His popularity is pretty good in the West also, so it's not like his inclusion will only cater to Japan. However, Japan did get FE6 (big game, could be considered a revival to the series, at least from Japan's perspective), so they kinda have that advantage if they like Roy via FE6, though liking Roy just because of Melee is legitimate as well.

I'll be quite honest with you, a character who was once planned for Brawl, highly requested in both Japan and in the West, and even positively commented on by the creator (what did Sakurai say? Something like "you may like this character's playstyle and will fall in love with his charm" <-- something along those lines -- it's on his Melee dojo page anyway. It's also been speculated that Sakurai may have added in Roy as more of a personal choice, along with is fire aesthetics) seems like a very likely choice. But Roy does have competition (I'm sure you know who, Ike included) and many people cringe at his clone status.

Roy does have his merits though, as with characters like Chom, Robin, and other newcomers.

See, IS can suggest things (i.e. Sakurai doesn't know which FE newcomer to add and asks them like what happened pre-Brawl), however, I don't think IS is that controlling (like they'll refuse to let Sakurai add Roy), at least not as much as the Pokemon Company (y u so picky, PC?). I don't think Sakurai has to oblige to a suggestion. In this case, if Sakurai wants to add Chrom, I think that one of the major reasons may be that he sees something more in Chrom -- something that will make him a worthwhile addition -- rather than just adding him because he's the most recent and successful Lord... at least I hope so. I mean, who knows for sure...

Anyway, 4 FE characters may be pushing it for some, but it's not impossible. FE is a long running Strategy RPG series (and niche one at that) that miraculously still manages to pump out games regularly. We don't really know how Sakurai views these things, or if 4 FE characters might be pushing it for him. Although I must note that he is a fan of the series, so in the end I doubt we'll be lacking in FE content, however, I will be disappointed if we don't get at least 3 FE characters. I'm personally fine with four, but maybe it's because I'm slightly bias in this sense. Better to get different opinions in this.

With the upcoming SMT x FE game, I'm really hoping will see a full FE on Wii U. I'm glad the series is getting a spin-off game, and perhaps the game is to test the FE series on the console... SO FE WII U GO GO GO!!

So, does Roy have a chance at returning, along with an Awakening newcomer? I think so, though I'm not sure how likely; I think it depends on what path Sakurai wants to take in the end. I'm assuming you're including Ike as well, so, for example, let's say the FE roster is: Marth, Ike, Roy, Chrom. If Chrom's going to share some similarities to Marth or Ike, I think it would be best if Roy's de-cloned (very easy thing to do giving what he can offer. Feel free to ask if you'd like me to further explain). The thing is, I do have trouble seeing Roy being 100% unique, maybe as a Lucas/Wolf at best (if Roy shares some moves it might be easier to implant anyway). I will make my judgment if we do see characters like Falco and Ganon. If they've been decloned or at least more unique, then I'll probably have more hope in Roy becoming the same.

My problem is this: what if Sakurai goes to IS hoping for a FE newcomer suggestion and the company suggests Chrom (for obvious reasons). Now, like I've said before, I don't think IS is that controlling that they HAVE to have Chrom playable (Awakening content could always be represented with things other than characters), but I just can't see them recommending anyone else other than Chrom. Maybe if we get a similar situation with Roy, or maybe if IS suggests some other FE character for god-knows-what, I'm not sure. The only other reason is if a FE6 remake is in the works, which we don't know and I doubt. Like I'm having a hard time seeing anyone else, but if someone can prove me wrong, then by all means DO IT!

I hope Roy's popularity isn't ignored. Sometime Sakurai does try to get popular requests in as best as he can -- Saki being an AT is an example (read Saki's dojo page for more info). We'll see how the FE franchise is handled; it's actually a series that I'm really anxious on.

I'm so sorry, this is what happens when I write something when I'm overly tired. :laugh:

In short, I do believe Roy is in a good position of returning, but he does have competition, notably Ike (returning vet), Chrom, or a surprising choice like Robin (though I personally think it'll be Roy vs Chrom). Also depends what path Sakurai wants to take -- getting 4 FE characters isn't impossible, but different people will have different opinions whether they're okay with this many characters. If characters like Falco/Ganon become decloned I will have more faith in Roy becoming the same.
It may just be his clone status, but I always found it odd how many people put him down. Again, I will reiterate that I don't care for him, since I've never played FE6 unfortunately (heard its good, though) but his massive popularity may just pull him over. Of course, we can never be so sure, because when it comes to adding characters you need more then popularity, and Sakurai seems to focusing on characters that can add more to the roster, something that Roy currently lacks (if he retains his cloned moveset, anyway) but at the same time if he were to appear on the roster I wouldn't be surprised at all. Anyways, thanks for answering! :)

It's difficult to say who the newcomer could be, there's no evidence pointing to any one newcomer.

Looking at what has been hinted at, you'd say Ridley and Mii have the best foreshadowing in the form of Pyrosphere/Nintendogs, while Mii has the Find Mii update and the stage where it has yet to appear. Considering the proliferation of Kid Icarus content lately, the same can also be said of Palutena.

If you think K. Rool, Mewtwo or Isaac have a strong chance of getting in, this would be great timing for their reveal. A purely Smash-focused hype builder.

In terms of a surprise, which I find the least likely option, Sakurai may throw us a retro, like Takamaru.

It's a pathetically big pool, but I'm half-confident it'll be one of these characters.
Since its a direct specifically for Smash fans, my bet is Ridley, K. Rool, Shulk, Takamaru, or Mii.

For E3, I think its Mewtwo, Chrom, Pac-Man, Palutena, confirmation of Snake, to target the audience outside of Smash. You would think Mii as well, but again, they may need a prolonged explanation only suitable for a direct.
 
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shrooby

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As for a Awakening newcomer, while I generally don't care, Chrom is expected, but I feel Robin or Anna could potentially add more to the table. (Don't mind me, just adding some fuel to start up the inevitable FE debate :troll:)
Next time there's a Fire Emblem debate I'm going to listen to this as I read through it:
Fitting, yes? :troll:
 

BKupa666

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I'm going to probably regret saying this, but I honestly see the same kind of arguments being applied to K. Rool all the time.
The supporters often claim he'd be so unique, yet really, all I ever see in what they describe K. Rool is....a boomerang, a projectile that functions like Wolf's Blaster, a Cypher-like copter pack, and no agreement on the last special. And the style of regular combat typically sounds similar to how Bowser is in Smash 4.

Now, do I have a problem with K. Rool being like this? Not at all; I like that lovable fat croc too much and I like the sound of that style. But he honestly isn't some pinnacle of freshness. Either that, or no one has actually given me reason to believe it. (And before Habanero starts bagging me on this like he inevitably will, I'm not saying K. Rool is on Chrom's "level".)
I feel K. Rool is worthy because he's K. Rool, not because he's "unique".
In regards to Miis, I don't really care for them personally, but they are worthy as well. Which is why I'm indifferent about them showing up. It's not like say, Geno, who was an overrated fad.
I wondered whether someone would bring this up in reference to Rool. I don't see how the blunderbuss resembles Wolf's blaster at all...at its most basic, the blunderbuss cannonballs are unique in that they're the first real 'heavy' projectiles in Smash, unless you count, like, picking up and throwing Wario's bike. With minimal deviation from source material, he can also use the first projectile traps (shooting the spiked balls onto the floor) and the first status effect projectiles (the clouds). There's three completely fresh projectile ideas that can then be branched out from by, using your example, having him shoot Klaptraps or something. I can agree that the Crown Boomerang and Helicopter Pack aren't inherently unique in and of themselves; the former in particular is mainly used because of it essentially being K. Rool's trademark attack, while the latter is the most obvious recovery option.

I think that where most people come to regard K. Rool as unique based off of those moves is that, coupled with his nature as a bats**t bumbling heavyweight, allow him to take up any of a number of great playstyles that, admittedly, would stand out less if paired with your run-of-the-mill lightweight. At the most basic, you have a speedy heavyweight with great range. Beyond that, there's the option of bullet hell (flooding the stage with projectiles), trap-layer, grappler, turtle, even surprise attacker (if you give him invisibility from DKC2/DK64), among others I've forgotten. So yeah, beyond being an iconic villain, K. Rool not only offers attacks that are inherently unique, but the ability to piece them together with more basic ones to form fantastic, coherent playstyles. That's what puts him several cuts above just "hits you with hair, shoots you with gum," IMO.

I do agree that the Mii is an icon, but I believe characters ought to be both iconic and some combination of unique and popular to warrant inclusion. I think the Mii at its core would be a repetitive and bland character, and that, to make the character interesting through customization, an overlarge chunk of development time would be eaten up, all for a mediocre final result.
 
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False Sense

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Seems like it's the witching hour, seeing how nobody has posted for that long. Is it that normal to have an hour full of nothing in this thread?
Sometimes I think certain posts just leave very little room for anything after it.

Much like the one above yours.
 

Starcutter

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.... So guys, do you guys have any "gut feelings" for a character tomorrow?

I know I do, so anyone else?
 

False Sense

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.... So guys, do you guys have any "gut feelings" for a character tomorrow?

I know I do, so anyone else?
I don't trust gut feelings. I trust in logic and reasoning based on solid evidence.
 

False Sense

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Too bad. Rosalina time.
I think there was some logic behind that. It wasn't the most obvious choice, but it had its reasons, I think.

But I'll admit, that's before I really got into seriously speculating the roster, so I can't give a very accurate opinion on it.
 

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On Miis, for me they don't have to have a customizable moveset as I feel like they could offer enough without such option. Miis (or the concept of creating an avatar) has a long history with Nintendo -- in a way you could almost call them historical.

Now, I'm indifferent about Miis. If they get in, however, I do hope they're unique and fun as much as possible. I don't want to argue on their pros/cons because that's not the point I'm trying to make.

Going back to what I said before: on the history thing I recommend watching this video if you haven't before:


I may not care that much about Miis, but seeing an idea Miyamoto had struggle to find its place around 20 years ago and evolve into the successful Mii concept that we have today is kinda inspiring. And Miis are still going strong and probably will in the future.
 

JamesDNaux

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So I finished this little thing here, I ordered the characters on my roster by release dates. The coloured borders also correspond to what system they first appeared.

I didn't bunch together characters by series, so the likes of Ganondorf is far away from Link and Zelda (not counting Ganon form obviously), this also leaves Meta Knight in the awkward position of being from an NES game in the 90's that came out after several SNES characters' games. Lucario and Chrom are solo-repping the DS and 3DS respectively, and there are absolutely no Wii U characters obviously, an interesting thing is that most non-arcade characters come from the 90's.

Probably nothing new to a few of you, but I was bored and thought I'd go through them more intricately, found out that Snake is older than Mega Man by just a few months. This might not be entirely accurate since Wikipedia isn't the most reliable of resources, so anyone feel free to tell me if there are any glaring errors.

Special Notes: Mr. Game & Watch is listed under the Arcade section because he's older than even Pac-Man, he has his own special Game & Watch coloured border to accommodate. Snake and Sonic both have their own unique borders as well as they originated on the MSX2 and Sega Genesis respectively.
 

shrooby

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So I finished this little thing here, I ordered the characters on my roster by release dates. The coloured borders also correspond to what system they first appeared.

I didn't bunch together characters by series, so the likes of Ganondorf is far away from Link and Zelda (not counting Ganon form obviously), this also leaves Meta Knight in the awkward position of being from an NES game in the 90's that came out after several SNES characters' games. Lucario and Chrom are solo-repping the DS and 3DS respectively, and there are absolutely no Wii U characters obviously, an interesting thing is that most non-arcade characters come from the 90's.

Probably nothing new to a few of you, but I was bored and thought I'd go through them more intricately, found out that Snake is older than Mega Man by just a few months. This might not be entirely accurate since Wikipedia isn't the most reliable of resources, so anyone feel free to tell me if there are any glaring errors.

Special Notes: Mr. Game & Watch is listed under the Arcade section because he's older than even Pac-Man, he has his own special Game & Watch coloured border to accommodate. Snake and Sonic both have their own unique borders as well as they originated on the MSX2 and Sega Genesis respectively.
Earthbound was released in 1994. Ness should be between K. Rool and Pikachu.
Or are you trying to say that Ninten and Ness are the same person? What do you think this is, a game theory thread? :p
 
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JamesDNaux

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Earthbound was released in 1994. Ness should be between K. Rool and Pikachu.
Or are you trying to say that Ninten and Ness are the same person? What do you think this is, a game theory thread? :p
Little Mac technically didn't appear in the arcade Punch-Out either, but as they were both the first characters to appear in Smash from their respective series, I put them where the very first game from the series would be, regardless of if they were in it or not. That didn't apply to any secondary characters however.
 
D

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So I finished this little thing here, I ordered the characters on my roster by release dates. The coloured borders also correspond to what system they first appeared.

I didn't bunch together characters by series, so the likes of Ganondorf is far away from Link and Zelda (not counting Ganon form obviously), this also leaves Meta Knight in the awkward position of being from an NES game in the 90's that came out after several SNES characters' games. Lucario and Chrom are solo-repping the DS and 3DS respectively, and there are absolutely no Wii U characters obviously, an interesting thing is that most non-arcade characters come from the 90's.

Probably nothing new to a few of you, but I was bored and thought I'd go through them more intricately, found out that Snake is older than Mega Man by just a few months. This might not be entirely accurate since Wikipedia isn't the most reliable of resources, so anyone feel free to tell me if there are any glaring errors.

Special Notes: Mr. Game & Watch is listed under the Arcade section because he's older than even Pac-Man, he has his own special Game & Watch coloured border to accommodate. Snake and Sonic both have their own unique borders as well as they originated on the MSX2 and Sega Genesis respectively.
Shouldn't Wolf be behind Pikachu or are you not counting the canned Star Fox 2 game?
 

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N3ON

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Little Mac technically didn't appear in the arcade Punch-Out either, but as they were both the first characters to appear in Smash from their respective series, I put them where the very first game from the series would be, regardless of if they were in it or not. That didn't apply to any secondary characters however.
Seems a bit arbitrary. Why not either order by first appearance of the character or first appearance of the series with all its characters together?
 

Zynux

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Guys, here's a question for you.

What do you think the odds are of us getting a Fire Emblem newcomer from a currently unreleased game?
Probably the only WFT/unsuspected character I would love to see. That would obliterate all Fire Emblem arguments and leave me extremely satisfied at the end results caused by it.
 
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JamesDNaux

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Shouldn't Wolf be behind Pikachu or are you not counting the canned Star Fox 2 game?
Yeah, not counting canceled games since they were well, canceled.
Seems a bit arbitrary. Why not either order by first appearance of the character or first appearance of the series with all its characters together?
Well I never made this for any particular reason besides boredom, Ness and Little Mac are the only two who did so, and I mostly did it because of Mac's heavy arcade references/to balance it out a bit more. Ness (and Lucas) was also ordered that way in Brawl's all star mode, but I wanted to separate the characters more.
A certain third-party whose name begins with an S.
It's obviously Son Goku. :troll:
 
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Miffa

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Guys, here's a question for you.

What do you think the odds are of us getting a Fire Emblem newcomer from a currently unreleased game?
is there a fire emblem game in development that we know about though?
 

NickerBocker

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Concerning the Mii being a fully customizable character:

At E3, Sakurai stated that he had not fully began to implement the customizable feature. He did say it would alter "direction of attacks" (Whatever that means) so Sakurai did have an idea of what it was going to be like. Considering he said this at E3, and by this time the roster had been finalized, the Mii would not likely include changeable moves and the like. They would be under the same effect as other characters, as in they would have the "direction of attacks" feature as well. dealing with the complication of balancing that, I feel Sakurai would not make Mii customizable. He also stated that often in games with customization that "people find the best combinations very quick, thus making the system rather useless" (paraphrased) The combination of these statements make me believe that the Mii, if added, will have a discrete moveset and not be changeable.

Of course, this point is moot if he decided on doing this after E3, but being that far into development I think he wouldn't try to push for something so complex and risk having broken characters populate the battlefield constantly.

Mii has a good chance of being added, but as a fully customizable character? I think there is just too many variables to deal with in order for it to work, considering there is most likely going to be 40+ characters on the roster that also require a lot of balance, something that he didn't focus on as much last time, but Sakurai is trying to implement further on this round.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see...
 

ppbto

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Guys, here's a question for you.

What do you think the odds are of us getting a Fire Emblem newcomer from a currently unreleased game?
I'll love that, it will destroy the unending FE debates.
 

JamesDNaux

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Alright, I went back and edited this after the small bit of criticism. Each one is now accurate to when the characters themselves actually appeared, no exceptions* for Ness or Little Mac. I took out all the unconfirmed newcomers for this one and I'll just add any as they come. I also separated Sheik and Zamus to be more accurate.

*DK as we know him today technically originated in DKC (Cranky being the original from the arcade) and would be next to Diddy, but **** it.
 
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I wondered whether someone would bring this up in reference to Rool. I don't see how the blunderbuss resembles Wolf's blaster at all...at its most basic, the blunderbuss cannonballs are unique in that they're the first real 'heavy' projectiles in Smash, unless you count, like, picking up and throwing Wario's bike. With minimal deviation from source material, he can also use the first projectile traps (shooting the spiked balls onto the floor) and the first status effect projectiles (the clouds). There's three completely fresh projectile ideas that can then be branched out from by, using your example, having him shoot Klaptraps or something. I can agree that the Crown Boomerang and Helicopter Pack aren't inherently unique in and of themselves; the former in particular is mainly used because of it essentially being K. Rool's trademark attack, while the latter is the most obvious recovery option.
The Wolf comparison was that it would fire a single, slow-moving projectile unaffected by gravity at a time.
And while yes, I've brought up opponent-clamping Klaptraps and his blunderbuss can shoot different things, I rarely ever see the blunderbuss in moveset ideas for anything other than "Kannonballs". Which was the point I was making; I feel people need to practice what they preach.

I think that where most people come to regard K. Rool as unique based off of those moves is that, coupled with his nature as a bats**t bumbling heavyweight, allow him to take up any of a number of great playstyles that, admittedly, would stand out less if paired with your run-of-the-mill lightweight. At the most basic, you have a speedy heavyweight with great range. Beyond that, there's the option of bullet hell (flooding the stage with projectiles), trap-layer, grappler, turtle, even surprise attacker (if you give him invisibility from DKC2/DK64), among others I've forgotten. So yeah, beyond being an iconic villain, K. Rool not only offers attacks that are inherently unique, but the ability to piece them together with more basic ones to form fantastic, coherent playstyles. That's what puts him several cuts above just "hits you with hair, shoots you with gum," IMO.
I feel that's blowing it out of proportion. When you put all these jumbles of playstyles as "options", it leads the big question: can't anyone have a huge number of playstyle options if you dig deep enough? I mean, you see Dixie Kong as just "hits you with hair, shoots you with gum", and yet there's a very obvious route in the semi-grappler archetype and the poker archetype (which, unless one of the Newcomers counts, would be a first for Smash).
Aside from that, there is also feasibility to take into account. It doesn't make a lick of difference if someone can do a ****ton if it wouldn't work within the confines of Smash. In example, "bullet hell"? (Which Mega Man already seems to cover anyway) Do we really need a super heavyweight that you can't even approach since he can just spam multitudes of projectiles that pack a punch and are hard to avoid?

I do agree that the Mii is an icon, but I believe characters ought to be both iconic and some combination of unique and popular to warrant inclusion. I think the Mii at its core would be a repetitive and bland character, and that, to make the character interesting through customization, an overlarge chunk of development time would be eaten up, all for a mediocre final result.
Ironically, Miis have near infinite potential even when compared to your listings of K. Rool.
So really, the problem isn't that they're bland; it's that they do not interest you enough to think of anything that doesn't make them seem bland. Which is ok, it's your viewpoint.
 

DraginHikari

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Indeed, either this may break what we understand about the game or confirm the reality of what we expect, all left to been seen now.
 
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