Character Discussion Thread

[Pacack]

I'm gonna be honest here.
A chance at another Mario newcomer was thrown out the window when Rosalina became said character.

Agreed on this part.

At least Dr. Mario has a chance with him being a veteran.

Not on this. In my mind, if we're to get Dr. Mario at all, it would be as an alternate costume or as a Melee DLC pack.

 

[N3ON]

I'm gonna be honest here.
A chance at another Mario newcomer was thrown out the window when Rosalina became said character.

At least Dr. Mario has a chance because him being a veteran.

There's no proof for any of those claims.

Look at what happened last time with Kirby.

It's unlikely we get another Mario newcomer, not impossible. And Sakurai obv thought Rosalina merited inclusion above Doc (assuming Doc isn't in), what's to stop a second Mario newcomer from also getting priority? The series is more than large enough, with more than enough popular contenders with Smash potential.

 

[Substitution]

Not on this. In my mind, if we're to get Dr. Mario at all, it would be as an alternate costume or as a Melee DLC pack.

I think he's possible. As a semi-clone.

Look, if we can have two separate Links, we can have Mario and Dr. Mario together.

There's no proof for any of those claims.

Look at what happened last time with Kirby.

Let me put it this way.
With King DDD and Meta Knight, they make perfect sense. They're big parts of the Kirby franchise.
It's not like the Mario franchise where we already have the major four and then some.

It's unlikely we get another Mario newcomer, not impossible. And Sakurai obv thought Rosalina merited inclusion above Doc, what's to stop a second Mario newcomer from also getting priority?

I think your quote already said everything I could.
"There's no proof for any of those claims."

Just because the Doc hasn't been revealed yet doesn't mean he's out for the count.
That's like saying Mewtwo is gone because he hasn't been revealed yet.

The series is more than large enough, with more than enough popular contenders with Smash potential.

Maybe in our eyes.
But what about Sakurai?

 

[Pacack]

I think he's possible. As a semi-clone.

Look, if we can have two separate Links, we can have Mario and Dr. Mario together.

Sakurai stated (I'd have to look up the source) that he actually views the younger version of Link to be the true "Link", so Toon Link naturally got a pass. It also helps that the two Links are not the same person canonically in the Zelda timeline. Dr. Mario and Mario are the same person. Because of that, it makes sense (to me) to make Dr. Mario an alternate costume rather than a full-fledged character, since Dr. Mario is still "Mario" just as the male and female Wii Fit Trainers are both "Wii Fit Trainer".

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

There's no proof for any of those claims.

Look at what happened last time with Kirby.

It's unlikely we get another Mario newcomer, not impossible. And Sakurai obv thought Rosalina merited inclusion above Doc, what's to stop a second Mario newcomer from also getting priority? The series is more than large enough, with more than enough popular contenders with Smash potential.

There is one thing that needs to be kept in mind about along the way. If Mario isn't having more than 5 reps, then Zelda should not get any newcomers at all, since even though Sheik is Zelda's transformation, she can actually operate like a separate entity, making 5 Zelda reps total.

 

[Onibaba]

Guys who do you think will be announced tonight?
I hope for Krystal and Toon Zelda

 

[AEMehr]

Strife, Cloud?

Slime
Sora
....
Square-Enix

 

[Substitution]

Sakurai stated (I'd have to look up the source) that he actually views the younger version of Link to be the true "Link", so Toon Link naturally got a pass. It also helps that the two Links are not the same person canonically in the Zelda timeline. Dr. Mario and Mario are the same person. Because of that, it makes sense (to me) to make Dr. Mario an alternate costume rather than a full-fledged character, since Dr. Mario is still "Mario" just as the male and female Wii Fit Trainers are both "Wii Fit Trainer".

I'd really like that source.

But remember, apparently the "same character" is not as big of a deal as we make it out.
Heck, they already showed otherwise with Melee. Which proves they can co-exist.

 

[N3ON]

Let me put it this way.
With King DDD and Meta Knight, they make perfect sense. They're big parts of the Kirby franchise.
It's not like the Mario franchise where we already have the major four and then some.

Yes, but we have candidates that are just as big to the series as Rosalina, and much bigger than Doc. We've already cracked into the B-Tier.

It's unlikely we get another Mario newcomer, not impossible. And Sakurai obv thought Rosalina merited inclusion above Doc, what's to stop a second Mario newcomer from also getting priority?
I think your quote already said everything I could.
"There's no proof for any of those claims."

Just because the Doc hasn't been revealed yet doesn't mean he's out for the count.
That's like saying Mewtwo is gone because he hasn't been revealed yet.

If you're going to edit your post the least you can do is check to see if I've edited mine.

Regardless, assuming Doc isn't in, which is the likelihood, my point still stands.

 

[Pacack]

There is one thing that needs to be kept in mind about along the way. If Mario isn't having more than 5 reps, then Zelda should not get any newcomers at all, since even though Sheik is Zelda's transformation, she can actually operate like a separate entity, making 5 Zelda reps total.

I honestly don't know where the concept of Zelda needing to be equal to mario came from.

64:
Mario Series: 2
Zelda Series: 1

Melee:
Mario: 5
*Zelda: 4/5

Brawl:
Mario: 4
*Zelda: 4/5

*If you count Sheik as a transformation for one and not the other to keep them equal, you're inconsistent.

There's no precedent for that.

I'd really like that source.

But remember, apparently the "same character" is not as big of a deal as we make it out.
Heck, they already showed otherwise with Melee. Which proves they can co-exist.

I'll try and find it for you, but I'll need to go in a bit, so I can't right this second.

In Melee, he couldn't get Dr. Mario to work as an alternate costume because he thought it would look weird to have Dr. Mario throwing fireballs instead of pills. Therefore, he added him as a separate character. Both times we've had two of the same character (two Links and Marios) were special cases that may or may not apply now. The technology's certainly advanced to the point that Sakurai could add Dr. Mario as a costume now (heck, Project M did it with the Wii), and I fully expect him to do that.

 

[N3ON]

There is one thing that needs to be kept in mind about along the way. If Mario isn't having more than 5 reps, then Zelda should not get any newcomers at all, since even though Sheik is Zelda's transformation, she can actually operate like a separate entity, making 5 Zelda reps total.

Like when Zelda had 5 in Brawl to Mario's 4?
And Pokemon had six? Nearly seven had we got one more character.

I think Zelda doesn't need another rep because the series is represented fine as is (Ganondorf should get a new moveset though), not for comparative reasons.

 

[Pacack]

Like when Zelda had 5 in Brawl to Mario's 4?
And Pokemon had six? Nearly seven had we got one more character.

I think Zelda doesn't need another rep because the series is represented fine as is (Ganondorf should get a new moveset though), not for comparative reasons.

Allow me to quote myself:

"I honestly don't know where the concept of Zelda needing to be equal to mario came from.

64:
Mario Series: 2
Zelda Series: 1

Melee:
Mario: 5
*Zelda: 4/5

Brawl:
Mario: 4
*Zelda: 4/5

*If you count Sheik as a transformation for one and not the other to keep them equal, you're inconsistent.

There's no precedent for that."

 

[Substitution]

Yes, but we have candidates that are just as big to the series as Rosalina, and much bigger than Doc. We've already cracked into the B-Tier.

Like who?
Toad? We have Peach's Neutral Special.
Bowser Jr? Isn't Bowser enough? Why not add the Koopalings while we're at it?
Daisy? Okay now were pushing it.

If you're going to edit your post the least you can do is check to see if I've edited mine.

Why? It's still the same sentence.
And the point still stands. Just because you think so, doesn't mean it's absolute fact.

(Also thanks for breaking my post, really appreciated that. )

Regardless, assuming Doc isn't in, which is the likelihood, my point still stands.

And I still think otherwise.
Funny how things work out like that huh?

I'll try and find it for you, but I'll need to go in a bit, so I can't right this second.

So until then, my point stands.

In Melee, he couldn't get Dr. Mario to work as an alternate costume because he thought it would look weird to have Dr. Mario throwing fireballs instead of pills. Therefore, he added him as a separate character. Both times we've had two of the same character (two Links and Marios) were special cases that may or may not apply now. The technology's certainly advanced to the point that Sakurai could add Dr. Mario as a costume now (heck, Project M did it with the Wii), and I fully expect him to do that.

Even if it was unintentional.
It's still proved that it could be done, regardless of intentions.

Sure, I'm not saying he's a definite shoe-in.
But he has a chance as the underdog. Even if we refuse to believe otherwise.

 

[Deleted member]

In Melee, he couldn't get Dr. Mario to work as an alternate costume because he thought it would look weird to have Dr. Mario throwing fireballs instead of pills. Therefore, he added him as a separate character. Both times we've had two of the same character (two Links and Marios) were special cases that may or may not apply now. The technology's certainly advanced to the point that Sakurai could add Dr. Mario as a costume now (heck, Project M did it with the Wii), and I fully expect him to do that.

Wrong.

What had happened was, someone made a suggestion to have Dr. Mario be a costume for Mario prior to Melee's development. Sakurai didn't like that idea because of the fireball thing. Then when clones were being made, Dr. Mario was among the first to come to mind because of that previous suggestion as well as the Dr. Mario game being seen as a classic and Dr. Mario's inclusion serving as an excuse to have the music featured in Smash.
Technical limitations had nothing to do with it.


Doc is either going to return as his own character again or not return at all (most likely outcome).

 

[Pacack]

So until then, my point stands.

"Link's younger incarnation is often considered to be the true Link: he was a young boy in the very first Legend of Zelda game, and he has appeared as a youth in most of the subsequent games. Since his debut on the original NES in 1987, Link's appearance has changed over and over again, each time adding to the mystique of his incomparable story."
— Trophy description

Not quite Sakurai saying he thinks that, but it's how I always interpreted it.

Sure, I'm not saying he's a definite shoe-in.
But he has a chance as the underdog. Even if we refuse to believe otherwise.

(Blue) Toad is more significant to the Mario series than Dr. Mario by a longshot. The only possible chance is as a last-minute (semi) clone, and I frankly don't see those happening this time around.

Wrong.

What had happened was, someone made a suggestion to have Dr. Mario be a costume for Mario prior to Melee's development. Sakurai didn't like that idea because of the fireball thing. Then when clones were being made, Dr. Mario was among the first to come to mind because of that previous suggestion as well as the Dr. Mario game being seen as a classic and Dr. Mario's inclusion serving as an excuse to have the music featured in Smash.
Technical limitations had nothing to do with it.


Doc is either going to return as his own character again or not return at all (most likely outcome).

My apologies. I was told wrong. I'll refrain from making that point again.

 

[N3ON]

Bowser Jr? Isn't Bowser enough? Why not add the Koopalings while we're at it?
Daisy? Okay now were pushing it.

You do realize you are advocating for another version of a character we already have, yes?

Why? It's still the same sentence.
And the point still stands. Just because you think so, doesn't mean it's absolute fact.

(Also thanks for breaking my post, really appreciated that. )

And I still think otherwise.
Funny how things work out like that huh?

...you're the one declaring we won't be getting another Mario newcomer. Give me some proof of that or you're the one presenting opinion as fact, not me by saying your claims aren't necessarily the case.
And it's not the same btw. You can compare what you've quoted to what's there now.

 

[?????????????]

Let's go Mewtwo!

Let's go King K. Rool!

Let's go Ridley!

Let's go Paper Mario!

Let's go Meowth!

Let's go Tetra!

Yaaaaaaaay~

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Project M didn't make Dr. Mario a costume. They just made him accessible through costumes and kept the same name. He's still a different fighter.

 

[Substitution]

You do realize you are advocating for another version of a character we already have, yes?

Yes.
I also realize I'm advocating for a beloved Melee veteran.

...you're the one declaring we won't be getting another Mario newcomer.

I never said "We'll never get a Mario newcomer. Deal with it." I said it's unlikely.

Give me some proof of that or you're the one presenting opinion as fact, not me by saying your claims aren't the case.

You know, I could say the same thing too you know.
No, I'm serious. Clearly I don't know what I'm talking about. So tell me.
Where did Sakurai say "Rosalina has more priority than Doctor Mario"? I really like to know.

And it's not the same btw. You can compare what you've quoted to what's there now.

How so?
It still gives the message of "Sakurai thinks Rosalina is better than Mario".

"Link's younger incarnation is often considered to be the true Link: he was a young boy in the very first Legend of Zelda game, and he has appeared as a youth in most of the subsequent games. Since his debut on the original NES in 1987, Link's appearance has changed over and over again, each time adding to the mystique of his incomparable story."
— Trophy description

Not quite Sakurai saying he thinks that, but it's how I always interpreted it.

Yeah, I'm not convinced.
It's still trophy data. It's just saying facts.
It's not like it came out of Sakurai's mouth.

(Blue) Toad is more significant to the Mario series than Dr. Mario by a longshot. The only possible chance is as a last-minute (semi) clone, and I frankly don't see those happening this time around.

Once again.
Until I see Dr. Mario disconfirmed. I'll say otherwise.

 

[Deleted member]

I've brought up this point before, though it's still unlikely.
Dr. Mario could be brought back under his own franchise as opposed to being tied to the "main" Mario franchise.

In Brawl, it seemed as though Dr. Mario content was kept separate from the Mario content, while things like Mario Kart, Paper Mario, and the sports games (with the sole exception being the Mario Tennis/Mario Golf song) were labeled as standard Mario content.

EDIT: Though, through some research, I've found that other than Dr. Mario being the protagonist, the series was simply known as "Virus". That may have something to do with it being seen as a separate franchise; because it technically is.
Much like Golf for the NES, which had Mario as the main character yet the game is technically not part of the Mario franchise nor even the Mario Golf subseries. And even then, Mario has been retconned out of it in Captain Rainbow, having the character be labeled as "Ossan" instead.

 

[Muster]

Bowser Jr. Is still top of my list for least wanted newcomer ever.

His very presence in Mario canon sickens me to this day, never have i had more of a burning hatred for any character.

Project M didn't make Dr. Mario a costume. They just made him accessible through costumes and kept the same name. He's still a different fighter.

This is true, While all of his movement and hitboxes are the same, His pills and Side smash use an electric property instead of Fire. (Not sure about the pills using electric, but the side smash does for sure.)

Yes.
I also realize I'm advocating for a beloved Melee veteran.

#nocuts

I value the return of characters much more than newcomers at this point. Every character cut is dissapointment to many. (and joy to a few jerks)

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I personally don't like what Project M does. Dr. Mario being a costume is bull ****, they replaced fun moves, made some characters less unique, and overall butchered a lot of things.

 

[Deleted member]

EDIT: Accidentally quoted instead of edited.
Ignore this.

 

[Pacack]

Project M didn't make Dr. Mario a costume. They just made him accessible through costumes and kept the same name. He's still a different fighter.

Well, could've fooled me. I still say Sakurai is fully capable of doing the same thing.

Yeah, I'm not convinced.
It's still trophy data. It's just saying facts.
It's not like it came out of Sakurai's mouth.


Once again.
Until I see Dr. Mario disconfirmed. I'll say otherwise.

You are certainly entitled to your own interpretation and opinion. If he is indeed confirmed, I'll gladly concede that I was wrong.

 

[?????????????]

I've brought up this point before, though it's still unlikely.
Dr. Mario could be brought back under his own franchise as opposed to being tied to the "main" Mario franchise.

In Brawl, it seemed as though Dr. Mario content was kept separate from the Mario content, while things like Mario Kart, Paper Mario, and the sports games (with the sole exception being the Mario Tennis/Mario Golf song) were labeled as standard Mario content.

My opinion on that idea has always been that it only makes sense if it stars a different character, or if the franchise it is separate from does not include the traditional starring character.

So, in my mind, Dr. Mario fits under Mario because it stars Mario. However, since there are Yoshi and Wario games that don't feature Mario at all, they are their own franchise, or because Luigi's Mansion games still have Mario in them, they're still under the Mario franchise.

...Not that that makes my opinion true. If anything, it's just a justification I came up with in my mind as to why the franchises are separated as they are in Melee and Brawl.

 

[Pacack]

This is true, While all of his movement and hitboxes are the same, His pills and Side smash use an electric property instead of Fire. (Not sure about the pills using electric, but the side smash does for sure.)

Pills have no element. I can confirm that.

 

[N3ON]

Yes.
I also realize I'm advocating for a beloved Melee veteran.

That doesn't mean Dr. Mario wouldn't also be really really similar to Mario, which is what you're dismissing Bowser Jr. for. If anything, it should prove that doesn't matter to Sakurai, with it in fact being a plus if he's looking for semi-clones.

I never said "We'll never get a Mario newcomer. Deal with it." I said it's unlikely.

"I'm gonna be honest here.
A chance at another Mario newcomer was thrown out the window when Rosalina became said character."
If the chance is gone, that means you think it won't happen.

You did not say it's unlikely. I said it's unlikely.
"It's unlikely we get another Mario newcomer, not impossible."

You know, I could say the same thing too you know.
No, I'm serious. Clearly I don't know what I'm talking about. So tell me.
Where did Sakurai say "Rosalina has more priority than Doctor Mario"? I really like to know.

How so?
It still gives the message of "Sakurai thinks Rosalina is better than Mario".

You've completely ignored the fact that I turned the situation into a hypothetical. I added "assuming Doc isn't in" because that is the likely situation, and you still haven't answered that question I posed back at the top of the page.

Yeah, I'm not convinced.
It's still trophy data. It's just saying facts.
It's not like it came out of Sakurai's mouth.

Both Sakurai and Miyamoto both view Child Link as the primary Link. You could find proof if you looked, I'm not going searching for it, but I'm sure taking our word for it would prevent continuing to be obstinate, so I don't anticipate you'll believe us.

 

[Pacack]

My opinion on that idea has always been that it only makes sense if it stars a different character, or if the franchise it is separate from does not include the traditional starring character.

So, in my mind, Dr. Mario fits under Mario because it stars Mario. However, since there are Yoshi and Wario games that don't feature Mario at all, they are their own franchise, or because Luigi's Mansion games still have Mario in them, they're still under the Mario franchise.

...Not that that makes my opinion true. If anything, it's just a justification I came up with in my mind as to why the franchises are separated as they are in Melee and Brawl.

I'm curious. Since the Yoshi's Island series has Baby versions of the Mario cast, do you not count those games as "Yoshi" games?

 

[?????????????]

I'm curious. Since the Yoshi's Island series has Baby versions of the Mario cast, do you not count those games as "Yoshi" games?

That's where it gets...fuzzy. When the first SSB was released, Yoshi's Story had already come out, a game that did not include Mario.

Given that the first Yoshi's Island game did include Mario, and was even called "Super Mario World 2," I guess by my own opinion, I would believe that it did not become it's own franchise until Yoshi's Story, but then you could include Yoshi's Island as part of the franchise. So if, for instance, a Luigi game was made without Mario, it would be more understandable to call it the Luigi franchise.

I think? If that still makes sense.

 

[Deleted member]

Very few Yoshi titles do not have Mario.


....and none have absolutely nothing to do with Mario's characters such as Bowser.


Wario is more of an example, being that starting with Wario Land 2, no Mario characters showed up at all. This lasted until WarioWare, but Mario and co. only appear in various microgames as opposed to actually showing up.

 

[?????????????]

Very few Yoshi titles do not have Mario.


....and none have absolutely nothing to do with Mario's characters such as Bowser.

Hm, that's true. I guess I didn't think about that simply because they don't have "Mario" himself. Or, well...a couple of them don't.

 

[Pacack]

That's where it gets...fuzzy. When the first SSB was released, Yoshi's Story had already come out, a game that did not include Mario.

Given that the first Yoshi's Island game did include Mario, and was even called "Super Mario World 2," I guess by my own opinion, I would believe that it did not become it's own franchise until Yoshi's Story, but then you could include Yoshi's Island as part of the franchise. So if, for instance, a Luigi game was made without Mario, it would be more understandable to call it the Luigi franchise.

I think? If that still makes sense.

But...

He exists. From Yoshi's Story. Baby Bowser.

 

[Substitution]

That doesn't mean Dr. Mario wouldn't also be really really similar to Mario, which is what you're dismissing Bowser Jr. for. If anything, it should prove that doesn't matter to Sakurai, with it in fact being a plus if he's looking for semi-clones.

Fine, you have me there.
But we still have Toad and Daisy.

"I'm gonna be honest here.
A chance at another Mario newcomer was thrown out the window when Rosalina became said character."
If the chance is gone, that means you think it won't happen.
You did not say it's unlikely. I said it's unlikely.
"It's unlikely we get another Mario newcomer, not impossible."

You've completely ignored the fact that I turned the situation into a hypothetical. I adding "assuming Doc isn't in" because that is the likely situation, and you still haven't answered that question I posed back at the top of the page.

All right, you want it answered? Here.

We already have the big four and then some, there's no reason to add another.
The reason I think Dr. Mario has a better chance it because he's already been proven able to work.
He also has the "veteran" status behind him. That alone should at least put on somewhere on the list.

Both Sakurai and Miyamoto both view Child Link as the primary Link. You could find proof if you looked, I'm not going searching for it, but I'm sure taking our word for it would prevent continuing to be obstinate, so I don't anticipate you'll believe us.

I'm a stubborn little bag of dirt like that...

 

[?????????????]

But...

He exists. From Yoshi's Story. Baby Bowser.

Yeah, but it's not Mario. Could you still call it a Mario game without Mario?

 

[Substitution]

Yeah, but it's not Mario. Could you still call it a Mario game without Mario?

Yell, knowing how we don't call Super Smash Bros a Mario game...

 

[?????????????]

He also has the "veteran" status behind him. That alone should at least put on somewhere on the list.

I hope that alone isn't enough to put Pichu on the radar.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, but it's not Mario. Could you still call it a Mario game without Mario?

Ask Miyamoto.
He certainly counts the Yoshi games as part of the Mario franchise.


....though (ironically) doesn't see the same in the Dr. Mario titles.

 

[?????????????]

Ask Miyamoto.
He certainly counts the Yoshi games as part of the Mario franchise.


....though (ironically) doesn't see the same in the Dr. Mario titles.

How does Wario fit into this? The first "Wario Land" is "Mario Land 3," so are the following Wario Land games still Mario games?

 

[Pacack]

Yeah, but it's not Mario. Could you still call it a Mario game without Mario?

I get where you're coming from. Something like Super Princess Peach is still a Mario game since you rescue Mario in the end, but Yoshi's Story is not because Mario doesn't appear in any form?

 

[?????????????]

I get where you're coming from. Something like Super Princess Peach is still a Mario game since you rescue Mario in the end, but Yoshi's Story is not because Mario doesn't appear in any form?

That's what I think. Or rather, that's how I justify groupings of franchises in Super Smash Bros.