Character Discussion Thread

[Kenith]

I honestly hate talking about retros more than any other controversial topic here because there's no real definition for what's classified as retro. The only characters unanimously agreed to be "retro" are Takamaru and Mach Rider, but even then it's not in a technical sense.

Wait, I take that back, Miis are more frustrating to discuss.

Little Mac's design and interpretation in Smash 4 is largely based off of Punch Out Wii.
It's like saying Pac-Man is a retro.

Yes, ideally Pacman would be retro in my eyes.
But my definition of retro is different from everyone else.

 

[FalKoopa]

It may be just me, but I don't really see Lip as a "retro", at least by what standards were made for the niche back in Melee.

....as in NES/Famicom.
As well as anything before that, such as the Game & Watch (though I see his case being much different) or pre-Famicom Arcade.

Panel de Pon, or Puzzle League as it's localized as, debuted on the Super NES/Famicom. The franchise is also far from extinct, having games since the Americanized Pokémon versions in 2000 on the Gamecube (Nintendo Puzzle Collection; Yoshi's Cookie and Dr. Mario are also featured in this), the GBA (Dr. Mario & Puzzle League), the DS (Planet Puzzle League), and the DSi (Puzzle League Express), the latest title from 2009.
Yes, Lip and the other fairies have been faded out of the franchise since the GBA game aside from a cameo here or there, but saying she's "retro" would be saying Geno from Super Mario RPG is a "retro" just because he hadn't been in a Mario game aside from a cameo in M&L Superstar Saga since his debut.

Well, since the Retro console at the time of Melee was the NES, I think enough time has passed that the SNES would also fall into Retro territory. This is just my personal opinion of course.

 

[Parmite]

View attachment 11298
This guy? This is Shadow! Sonic and Shadow are not the same hedgehog

Whoosh.

 

[Rockaphin]

I personally still see Little Mac as a retro. But that's just me. The reason I see it that way is that his appeal still largely stems from his NES popularity, and the fact that he did appear in Brawl before this game, although he wasn't playable.

I understand what you're saying and I too consider him retro personally. I understand why he isn't a retro character but I forget that there's a Punch-Out on the Wii anyway.

 

[DraginHikari]

Genereally I tend to view Retro as a character that was created during gaming earlier years of gaming and the character's characteristic are almost directly tied to that Retro variation.

For example, I view little mac as retro for two reasons, his series has very few games and second the games that he has had have tied back to the Retro style of his earlier games. The games have not heavily evolved or drastically change. I mean the Wii Game is liternally played like the NES version of the game even it was more recent.

If the character origin and if they had a occasional entree it's usually tied back to the original games in one form or another.

 

[Kenith]

Exactly.

The definition of retro is, "relating to, reviving, or being the styles and especially the fashions of the past : fashionably nostalgic or old-fashioned." [source]

With that in mind, Little Mac and Pacman would be very much "retro", would they not?

Similarly @andimidna Pit would not be considered retro because his character and series was drastically redesigned, looking nothing like the source material.

 

[DraginHikari]

Pit was still Retro during Brawl Developement, with the release of Uprising it's hard to put him in the same catagory.

Pacman.... is a bit more complicated by my description I think. Even though Pacman originated during the Retro era, his games have varied quite a bit in style, gameplay, and focus. I suppose it depends on where you draw the line on how much change stops making it retro.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Watch Sakurai make a new anime-esque Takamaru in the vein of Sakigate Otokojuku x Fruits Basket.

 

[FalKoopa]

I consider a character as retro if they have had no proper appearances in games after a certain time-frame.

Lip's only notable appearance was in PDP, so she would qualify. Little Mac and Pit wouldn't qualify as they got recent games.

(I'm not sure if Capt. Rainbow should count towards it or not.)

 

[Substitution]

(I'm not sure if Capt. Rainbow should count towards it or not.)

Not really.
IMO anyone that fall between the NES' to the N64's era could be considered "retro".

 

[YoshiandToad]

I consider a character as retro if they have had no proper appearances in games after a certain time-frame.

When does K. Rool turn retro?

 

[FalKoopa]

When does K. Rool turn retro?

K. Rool's last appearance was in 2008 (Mario Super Sluggers), so whatever Smash game comes out in 2025-ish. This is assuming he doesn't make another reappearance.

 

[Kenith]

K. Rool's last appearance was in 2008 (Mario Super Sluggers), so whatever Smash game comes out in 2025-ish. This is assuming he doesn't make another reappearance.

When did retro-ism suddenly become a short-term version of copyright?

 

[BluePikmin11]

It may be just me, but I don't really see Lip as a "retro", at least by what standards were made for the niche back in Melee.

....as in NES/Famicom.
As well as anything before that, such as the Game & Watch (though I see his case being much different) or pre-Famicom Arcade.

Panel de Pon, or Puzzle League as it's localized as, debuted on the Super NES/Famicom. The franchise is also far from extinct, having games since the Americanized Pokémon versions in 2000 on the Gamecube (Nintendo Puzzle Collection; Yoshi's Cookie and Dr. Mario are also featured in this), the GBA (Dr. Mario & Puzzle League), the DS (Planet Puzzle League), and the DSi (Puzzle League Express), the latest title from 2009.
Yes, Lip and the other fairies have been faded out of the franchise since the GBA game aside from a cameo here or there, but saying she's "retro" would be saying Geno from Super Mario RPG is a "retro" just because he hadn't been in a Mario game aside from a cameo in M&L Superstar Saga since his debut.

You're not the only one, I consider her not a retro there she won't be chosen because it's not a franchise as a whole that is dead, which leans me to believe Sakurai will pick another retro aside from Takamaru to revive.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Little Mac is not retro, by any definition of the word. He had a game on the Wii, and just because his most popular game was on the NES doesn't mean the Wii game doesn't exist. It's like calling Mario retro just because he's old, even though he still ****s out games constantly.

Of course, Pit isn't retro anymore either, but the Ice Climbers still are though.


Still thinking on that character, Zelda newcomer seems to be the popular choice, though that would still leave which one to pick.

 

[Substitution]

Still thinking on that character, Zelda newcomer seems to be the popular choice, though that would still leave which one to pick.

There's only one.
Octarok!

 

[False Sense]

Still thinking on that character, Zelda newcomer seems to be the popular choice, though that would still leave which one to pick.

Out of curiosity, what are your opinions on the possible Zelda newcomers? Which one do you think is most likely, and which ones do you actually like best?

 

[Kenith]

Little Mac is not retro, by any definition of the word. He had a game on the Wii, and just because his most popular game was on the NES doesn't mean the Wii game doesn't exist. It's like calling Mario retro just because he's old, even though he still ****s out games constantly.
Of course, Pit isn't retro anymore either, but the Ice Climbers still are though.

Retro (adj) imitative of a style, fashion, or design from the recent past.

Um...by this definition, yes, he kind of is.

Also, I refrain from suggesting a Zelda character for obvious reasons.

 

[Louie G.]

So I came up with an interesting idea for Pac-Man. A sort of best-of-both-worlds scenario where Pac-Man can take a relatively modern design and mix it with the pie we know and love.
For Pac-Man's design, I like his Street Fighter x Tekken appearance best.

I like this design a lot. It keeps the Pac-Man shaped eyes and the no teeth routine. Just ditch the robot and we're good.
So I'm thinking that Pac-Man could take this design, or something resembling it, to Smash Bros and use that for running around and using aerials and smashes.
As for his specials, Pac-Man can contract his arms and legs into his body and become a ball with a face, essentially becoming a modern version of classic Pac. His standard special, Chomp (think Wario), is the only special move in his arsenal where he stays in his limbed form. My other special moves are as follows:

Side B: Waka Waka Waka
Pac-Man chomps forward a few times. It's good for quick damage but deals almost no knockback. This can also be used for a horizontal recovery.

Up B: Pac-Dot Trail
Many of you have heard of this or come up with it yourself. Pac-Man follows a small trail of pellets upward to recover. 3 dots going up, and one to the side that Pac is facing.

Down B: Pac-Bounce
Pac-Man bounces off the ground and flies high vertically. When done in air Pac falls down quickly and can bounce even higher.

All of these are performed while Pac-Man is in his condensed form, torso only. He can't fight in this form, he just takes it for his specials.
I imagine Pac-Man to be slightly taller than Kirby, only because his legs give him extra height.
Essentially my Pac-Man idea takes a great modern design and gives it a timeless moveset that is essentially Arcade Pac-Man.
We got something similar with Sonic (modern design, classic moveset) so I think it's very likely that Pac-Man goes in a similar direction.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Out of curiosity, what are your opinions on the possible Zelda newcomers? Which one do you think is most likely, and which ones do you actually like best?

Tingle is probably the most likely, though with Sakurai you never know. Of course the one I want the most is the Happy Mask Salesman.

Retro (adj) imitative of a style, fashion, or design from the recent past.

Um...by this definition, yes, he kind of is.

It's like calling Mario retro just because he's old, even though he still ****s out games constantly.

It's like calling Mario retro just because he's old, even though he still ****s out games constantly.

It's like calling Mario retro just because he's old, even though he still ****s out games constantly.

Over half the roster confirmed to be retro reps.

Remember the context of Smash Bros.

 

[Kenith]

Over half the roster confirmed to be retro reps.
Remember the context of Smash Bros.

Yes, half the characters are technically retros. That's the point I'm making. How Smashboards defines "retro" is not correct. Every Nintendo character borrows elements from their history. That's what makes them great. As a matter of fact, a lot of characters in Smash Bros are actually more retro-oriented than in their actual games. Pit, by this logic, is actually one of the least retro characters in the game.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

We're probably not getting a character revealed tomorrow. I'd change my AVI to Medli if we do.

 

[Will]

Yes, half the characters are technically retros. That's the point I'm making. How Smashboards defines "retro" is not correct. Every Nintendo character borrows elements from their history. That's what makes them great. As a matter of fact, a lot of characters in Smash Bros are actually more retro-oriented than in their actual games. Pit, by this logic, is actually one of the least retro characters in the game.

Even Rosalina,Miss Fit,and Villager?

Damn.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Yes, half the characters are technically retros. That's the point I'm making. How Smashboards defines "retro" is not correct. Every Nintendo character borrows elements from their history. That's what makes them great. As a matter of fact, a lot of characters in Smash Bros are actually more retro-oriented than in their actual games. Pit, by this logic, is actually one of the least retro characters in the game.

That's because we use Sakurai's definition of the word. He specifically picks "retro" characters who haven't had games in years, like Ice Climbers and Pit. Little Mac has a new game, so he is not retro. Why do you think we go on about retro characters in the first place? Little Mac can't be revived because he already was.

 

[Kenith]

That's because we use Sakurai's definition of the word. He specifically picks "retro" characters who haven't had games in years, like Ice Climbers and Pit. Little Mac has a new game, so he is not retro. Why do you think we go on about retro characters in the first place? Little Mac can't be revived, he already was.

Well, his definition is incorrect too.

Do you honestly think Little Mac was requested because of Punch Out Wii? No, of course not. He was requested because of the original, because people enjoyed that game as a kid, and Sakurai has to know that. By that logic, Mac is very much retro.

 

[Louie G.]

Well, his definition is incorrect too.

Sakurai's definition of retro is not incorrect considering we are talking about it in the Smash Bros sense of the word.
So it is the correct definition if we are looking for "retro characters".

 

[Substitution]

Well, his definition is incorrect too.

Do you honestly think Little Mac was requested because of Punch Out Wii? No, of course not. He was requested because of the original, because people enjoyed that game as a kid, and Sakurai has to know that. By that logic, Mac is very much retro.

So.
He's retro because people prefer the older games huh?
...I don't get it.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

This argument about retro characters is confusing. I'm outta here!

 

[Kenith]

Sakurai's definition of retro is not incorrect considering we are talking about it in the Smash Bros sense of the word.
So it is the correct definition if we are looking for "retro characters".

Like I said before, there are very, very few characters that could classified with that definition. That's what you guys were debating in the first place.

 

[Louie G.]

Like I said before, there are very, very few characters that could classified with that definition. That's what you guys were debating in the first place.

Ice Climbers are the "retros" for Melee.
They hadn't had a game since Ice Climbers for the NES back in '86.

Pit was the "retro" for Brawl.
He was a star back in the NES days but was absent for 25 years, to be reborn through Smash Bros and star in Uprising.

So we need someone like that in Smash 4. A character that has been absent for a while, and needs to make a comeback.
My money is and always has been on Takamaru. Nintendo Land doesn't count.

 

[Kenith]

Ice Climbers are the "retros" for Melee.
They hadn't had a game since Ice Climbers for the NES back in '86.

Pit was the "retro" for Brawl.
He was a star back in the NES days but was absent for 25 years, to be reborn through Smash Bros and star in Uprising.

So we need someone like that in Smash 4. A character that has been absent for a while, and needs to make a comeback.
My money is and always has been on Takamaru. Nintendo Land doesn't count.

Exactly. Takamaru is practically the only character that fits this very restricted criteria.

 

[BluePikmin11]

So have you guys declared that Lip is not a retro at all? >.>

 

[JamesDNaux]

Well, his definition is incorrect too.

I'm sorry, I didn't know you were making the game, please continue.

Do you honestly think Little Mac was requested because of Punch Out Wii? No, of course not. He was requested because of the original, because people enjoyed that game as a kid, and Sakurai has to know that. By that logic, Mac is very much retro.

Little Mac was requested because he's Little Mac, don't tell me that Palutena is requested because of her compelling role in the original Kid Icarus now. We don't go around picking characters because they're retro, we just know that Sakurai wants to pick an old character that can be revived, which is where "retro" comes from. Little Mac was not a popular choice because his series could be revived, it already was revived, he was a popular choice for multiple reasons.

• His old game was popular.
• He appeared in Brawl as an assist trophy.
• He got a new game which put him back in the spotlight.

The term retro (in the context of Smash) only applies to a character that can get a revival, you're not meant to think of retro in the literal sense of the term. Otherwise applying the word retro means absolutely nothing, to put it simply, we don't want an old character, we specifically want an old and dead character.

 

[Zhadgon]

Exactly. Takamaru is practically the only character that fits this very restricted criteria.

How about Mach Rider?
.n_n.

 

[Bowserlick]

Would you guys like a remake of the Brawl E3 trailer using footage from Smash 4 (that is if all the same characters in the trailer return, including Snake)?

 

[BluePikmin11]

How about Mach Rider?
.n_n.

Mach Rider, Muddy Mole, Prince Sable, Bubbles, Duck Hunt Dog, Sukapon, and Excite Biker fit that description.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Hmm...Retro characters...

The interesting thing on Little Mac, (regardless of if we can prove he is retro or not), is that he seems to be inspired by the arcade version of punch-out.

This is actually pretty neat seeing a character that seems to represent the arcades.

If he is a retro character, it certainly a nice twist on it.

 

[Kenith]

I'm sorry, I didn't know you were making the game, please continue.

I'm sorry, I didn't know you could use language incorrectly because you made a game.

It's like saying literally.

Little Mac was requested because he's Little Mac, don't tell me that Palutena is requested because of her compelling role in the original Kid Icarus now.

Palutena is completely different from Little Mac, and you know that. She is popular because of the new Kid Icarus. Little Mac is not popular because "Little Mac" otherwise he would just be a generic underdog boxer.

We don't go around picking characters because they're retro, we just know that Sakurai wants to pick an old character that can be revived, which is where "retro" comes from. Little Mac was not a popular choice because his series could be revived, it already was revived, he was a popular choice for multiple reasons.

• His old game was popular.
• He appeared in Brawl as an assist trophy.
• He got a new game which put him back in the spotlight.

The term retro (in the context of Smash) only applies to a character that can get a revival, you're not meant to think of retro in the literal sense of the term. Otherwise applying the word retro means absolutely nothing, to put it simply, we don't want an old character, we specifically want an old and dead character.

Well, why would you want an old and dead character? Besides, I personally feel any representation of the character in Smash Bros counts as revival, or it counts as none.

 

[Substitution]

So how 'bout dat Olimar?

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

So how 'bout dat Olimar?

Eh, no change needed.