Character Discussion Thread

[UltimateWario]

Are you insinuating that Meowth being a world-famous Pokemom is factually wrong?

My point is that Trophy Descriptions shouldn't be used to debate anything.

Also, lol, Pokemom.

 

[Glaciacott]

Dude already explained his point above

My point is that Trophy Descriptions shouldn't be used to debate anything.

 

[Deleted member]

My point is that Trophy Descriptions shouldn't be used to debate anything.

This is one of those rare exceptions where it is legitimate evidence of a point.
The point being that Meowth actually does hold some significance to Nintendo regardless of it being generally anime-centric, what pizzamandudeguy was getting at.

 

[Arcanir]

People weren't asking for legendaries for the meowth they had, people were asking for meowth and offering legendaries. This was at the time when japan was the only country with bank pokemon, by the way, so it was not an impossible request.

I'm ambivalent on the Meowth debate, but that is not exclusive to Meowth. They were doing that Frillish, Unown, non-XY starters, Misdreavus, Cottonee, basically whatever wasn't available in the game during that period because they were unobtainable otherwise. To use that only for Meowth is quite bias as it's not exclusive to him.

 

[Tepig2000]

Do people even watch today's Pokemon anime?

I watch Black White: Adventures in Unova and Beyond because it is airing in here and the only way to watch XY would be finding the japanese episodes in Youtube.

 

[Deleted member]

Furthermore, I looked back into what was stated earlier.

......I am heavily disappointed in the people that say Smash has no reference to the anime whatsoever. Especially in regards to Meowth, who they claim is worth nothing due to the iconic status being heavily derived from the anime.
It's like they forgot that this was a thing in Melee....

...Yeah. That's specifically the Team Rocket Meowth from the anime.
Playing a guitar like in the Meowth's Party tech demo for Spaceworld 2000.

 

[Muster]

I'm ambivalent on the Meowth debate, but that is not exclusive to Meowth. They were doing that Frillish, non-XY starters, Cottonee, basically whatever wasn't available in the game during that period because they were unobtainable otherwise. To use that only for Meowth is quite bias as it's not exclusive to him.

I know it wasn't exclusive to meowth, but it's something that meowth had that jigglypuff and pikachu didn't in X/Y, due to it not being available in the games. The argument was that meowth wasn't seen as important and that's why he isn't in the games, when in reality meowth has pretty much been a rare commodity since the games left kanto.
(Requests i saw most were elektrik, meowth, and weezing)

 

[Arcanir]

I know it wasn't exclusive to meowth, but it's something that meowth had that jigglypuff and pikachu didn't in X/Y, due to it not being available in the games.
(Requests i saw most were elektrik, meowth, and weezing)

That doesn't make it popular, it just makes it a rare commodity, people wanted it not necessarily because they liked it but because few had it otherwise. The fact that it wasn't exclusive to it and things like Electrik, or hell, even Stantler were getting the same treatment goes to show that it doesn't make it special.

 

[andimidna]

CONTROVERSY TIME!

Let's say in theory that out of Ridley, K.Rool, Palutena, and Mewtwo, one of them had to be cut due to time constraints. Who would you want to cut and why? Yes you have to pick one.

If it was me choosing, K Rool, mostly out of personal bias.
They better make Mewtwo top priority this time around. Because he never has been, and as a result, only made it in one out of three games. A shame.
The most popular of the 4 shouldn't be the one cut. And that is undeniably Mewtwo.
Palutena is my most wanted realistic character. Midna isn't very realistic. Rosalina is confirmed. So I'm rooting for Palutena 100%. She's my favorite of the 4.
Definitely wouldn't choose Ridley. If they want to add him they better have started early. He'll be difficult to include, but will be totally worth it in the end. I have been in many arguments about the character, and I really want to be right.
There is no way I could cut any of these 3.
But I don't care for K Rool. So he's the easy pick for me.

 

[Glaciacott]

Furthermore, I looked back into what was stated earlier.

......I am heavily disappointed in the people that say Smash has no reference to the anime whatsoever. Especially in regards to Meowth, who they claim is worth nothing due to the iconic status being heavily derived from the anime.
It's like they forgot that this was a thing in Melee....

...Yeah. That's specifically the Team Rocket Meowth from the anime.
Playing a guitar like in the Meowth's Party tech demo for Spaceworld 2000.

Someone did actually mention it, as referencing a video game appearance that would later wind up to be in Pokemon Channel.

Not my claim, just saying that someone did bring this up.

 

[Muster]

That doesn't make it popular, it just makes it a rare commodity, people wanted it not necessarily because they liked it but because few had it otherwise. The fact that it wasn't exclusive to it and things like Electrik, or hell, even Stantler were getting the same treatment goes to show that it doesn't make it special.

It certainly makes a pokemon linger in the mind more if someone is offering up legendaries for it. Would one appreciate getting a rare meowth or a pikachu over wonder trade more? Even if it doesn't affect meowth a popularity in a positive way, it definitely doesn't affect it negatively either

 

[Pacack]

This discussion inspired me to make an alternate universe roster. In this universe, Sakurai chooses characters for 64's roster exclusively on their iconic nature.

Agree or disagree?

 

[Glaciacott]

This discussion inspired me to make an alternate universe roster. In this universe, Sakurai chooses characters for 64's roster exclusively on their iconic nature.

Agree or disagree?

That's a lot of Mario.

 

[Pacack]

That's a lot of Mario.

Guess which of Nintendo's series is the most recognized.

 

[?????????????]

This discussion inspired me to make an alternate universe roster. In this universe, Sakurai chooses characters for 64's roster exclusively on their iconic nature.

Agree or disagree?

Hm...the only thing that bugs me is the lack of Fox, but even then, this might be more accurate.

 

[BluePikmin11]

This discussion inspired me to make an alternate universe roster. In this universe, Sakurai chooses characters for 64's roster exclusively on their iconic nature.

Agree or disagree?

Where's Duck Hunt Dog. D:
He's iconic too.

 

[Pacack]

Where's Duck Hunt Dog. D:
He's iconic too.

That point is certainly very debatable. I would argue that each of those characters is more iconic than him, though. And I did have a 12 character limit.

 

[False Sense]

Well, it seems the conversation has turned to Meowth while I was gone.

I think I'd rather not get too involved in this, but I'll just say this. I think Meowth makes sense as a possible Smash character. He's certainly one of the more recognizable and iconic pokemon, and has gotten some degree of special treatment in the games that play up his importance. My issue with Meowth is that, while he does have some current relevance due to the anime, and likely always will, he isn't that important to the main games themselves as of late. For example, Meowth is not obtainable within X and Y at all, despite the ridiculous size of the pokedex in that game and features like the Friend Safari existing. Now, this doesn't completely doom Meowth, but as it stands there are other iconic pokemon, such as Jigglypuff, the Kanto starters, Lucario, and Mewtwo, that do have current importance in the games that seem a bit more deserving at this point.

Really, I think Meowth's best shot at getting into Smash was the original game, where it would have made perfect sense to add it in, perhaps over Jigglypuff. After that, it's consistent exposure and overall prominence in the Pokemon series, thanks to the anime, would ensure his return in future installments. Obviously though, that didn't happen. Kind of a shame, because I think Meowth is one of the most deserving pokemon that could be added as a Smash character. I just think that, at the moment, there are others that are more deserving.

 

[Louie G.]

Meowth's best shot is as a sixth playable Pokémon.
Which is not likely. He also has some competition in that department, but none of them are as important or notable as him.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Well he needed someone quickly before the final roster was done. So I suppose that's how Jigglypuff got in.

 

[Glaciacott]

Well, it seems the conversation has turned to Meowth while I was gone.

I think I'd rather not get too involved in this, but I'll just say this. I think Meowth makes sense as a possible Smash character. He's certainly one of the more recognizable and iconic pokemon, and has gotten some degree of special treatment in the games that play up his importance. My issue with Meowth is that, while he does have some current relevance due to the anime, and likely always will, he isn't that important to the main games themselves as of late. For example, Meowth is not obtainable within X and Y at all, despite the ridiculous size of the pokedex in that game and features like the Friend Safari existing. Now, this doesn't completely doom Meowth, but as it stands there are other iconic pokemon, such as Jigglypuff, the Kanto starters, Lucario, and Mewtwo, that do have current importance in the games that seem a bit more deserving at this point.

Really, I think Meowth's best shot at getting into Smash was the original game, where it would have made perfect sense to add it in, perhaps over Jigglypuff. After that, it's consistent exposure and overall prominence in the Pokemon series, thanks to the anime, would ensure his return in future installments. Obviously though, that didn't happen. Kind of a shame, because I think Meowth is one of the most deserving pokemon that could be added as a Smash character. I just think that, at the moment, there are others that are more deserving.

Probably the best summary of the discussion as a whole. Forget all the stuff I said, what False Sense said is much more elegant and concise.

 

[?????????????]

I think that, in the midst of it all, Meowth does have a saving grace; a chance.

Did anyone expect Pokemon Trainer as a newcomer in Brawl? I know I didn't. I strongly advocated for Lucario during pre-Brawl times; I wanted to see some of the cool, new Pokemon. I never expected Sakurai to go back for some older icons.

If he decided to do that again...well, who would he pick? Meowth maybe?

 

[Louie G.]

I think that, in the midst of it all, Meowth does have a saving grace; a chance.

Did anyone expect Pokemon Trainer as a newcomer in Brawl? I know I didn't. I strongly advocated for Lucario during pre-Brawl times; I wanted to see some of the cool, new Pokemon. I never expected Sakurai to go back for some older icons.

If he decided to do that again...well, who would he pick? Meowth maybe?

I don't think that Pokémon getting six reps is out of the question, as long as Mario does as well.
In this case Mario can get Bowser Jr. or Paper Mario.
Pokémon preferably gets Meowth, but I can see them going for Zoroark, Genesect, or Hawlucha as well.

 

[BluePikmin11]

There isn't really any distinguishing, standout Mario characters out there for Mario to get 6 characters.
I really don't like the idea of franchise equality anymore now.

 

[?????????????]

There isn't really any distinguishing, standout Mario characters out there for Mario to get 6 characters.

Really? Before Rosalina's reveal, a lot of people advocated for a 6th Mario character. And it was rarely Rosalina.

 

[Glaciacott]

Best case scenario for me is we get no new Pokemon reps and instead we get Mewtwo and the announcement of a Pokemon fighting game in the style of Smash. There's too many iconic and fantastic pokemon that could be in Smash, and with time it's just going to get sillier and sillier to decide who gets in and who doesn't.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Really? Before Rosalina's reveal, a lot of people advocated for a 6th Mario character. And it was rarely Rosalina.

Wait, we just had 4 revealed before Rosalina right?

 

[Louie G.]

There isn't really any distinguishing, standout Mario characters out there for Mario to get 6 characters.
I really don't like the idea of franchise equality anymore now.

Bowser Jr, Paper Mario, Toad, etc.
Paper Mario is the most unique of the three but the other two are so iconic that they don't really need to be overly unique.

 

[andimidna]

This discussion inspired me to make an alternate universe roster. In this universe, Sakurai chooses characters for 64's roster exclusively on their iconic nature.

Agree or disagree?

Oh! I do this all the time!
But I didn't take my rosters to Costa Rica...
So here's typed!
If it had to be a 12 character roster:
(Including as many series as possible)

Mario, Link , Kirby , Fox , Ness , Pit
DK , Samus, Pikachu, C Falcon, Marth, Little Mac

If there could be 12 + clones:
Mario, Link , Samus , Fox , Kirby , Little Mac
Luigi, Ganondorf, Pikachu , Falco , Ninten, Marth
DK , C Falcon , Jigglypuff , Pit , Ness , Seliph

Luigi cloning Mario, Dorf cloning CFalcon, Jigglypuff cloning Kirby, Falco cloning Fox, Ninten cloning Ness, Seliph cloning Marth.

 

[Muster]

I honestly care too much about snake right now to worry about pokemon.
I mean, if Mewtwo doesn't return then I'm pretty sure Sakurai just hates pokemon, but i don't think he does so i'm not worried about mewtwo.

Bowser Jr, Paper Mario, Toad, etc.
Paper Mario is the most unique of the three but the other two are so iconic that they don't really need to be overly unique.

Paper mario could also represent the mario rpg games.

Right. With Rosalina, we have 5 now.

for the entire franchise we have 6, due to the doc.

 

[?????????????]

Wait, we just had 4 revealed before Rosalina right?

Right. With Rosalina, we have 5 now.

 

[Arcanir]

It certainly makes a pokemon linger in the mind more if someone is offering up legendaries for it. Would one appreciate getting a rare meowth or a pikachu over wonder trade more? Even if it doesn't affect meowth a popularity in a positive way, it definitely doesn't affect it negatively either

I apologize for being blunt on this, but I think that's reaching. There's no proof that it being a rare commodity did anything for it in the mindset of players, and as you said, it didn't affect its popularity. So it really has no basis in showing how popular the character is because it doesn't stand out in that regard compared to others in its group, and nothing shows that it being a part of that group did anything for it.

 

[Rockaphin]

Do I really need to say who I want as the next Mario newcomer? XD

 

[Substitution]

Do I really need to say who I want as the next Mario newcomer? XD

Goomba, correct?
Man I want him too! That moveset potential!

 

[False Sense]

I think that, in the midst of it all, Meowth does have a saving grace; a chance.

Did anyone expect Pokemon Trainer as a newcomer in Brawl? I know I didn't. I strongly advocated for Lucario during pre-Brawl times; I wanted to see some of the cool, new Pokemon. I never expected Sakurai to go back for some older icons.

If he decided to do that again...well, who would he pick? Meowth maybe?

I think it would be Meowth without a doubt. Although for this particular installment, Mewtwo also fills that role.

 

[IsmaR]

People weren't asking for legendaries for the meowth they had, people were asking for meowth and offering legendaries. This was at the time when japan was the only country with bank pokemon, by the way, so it was not an impossible request.

I recall it was more prevalent prior to Pokebank being released/re-released anywhere, when it was an impossible request. People on the GTS care more about having impossible 'mons (even temporary ones) than having legendaries, hence why you'll still see requests for impossible Lv. 9 and under stuff. And as you said in your first post, it was to finish their Pokedex, not because of popularity.

Also, jigglypuff did not get a stat boost. Wigglytuff is the only pokemon in their line that did, along with 13 other gen 1 pokemon. All except pikachu were fully evolved.

Still more than Meowth or its evolution got. I'd also argue that Persian gets more spotlight than Wigglytuff, being both Giovanni's go-to evil cat, and being in Red's team in Origins, including for the Elite 4/Champion battles. So against all of that, the Igglybuff line got all the love (type change, stat increase, new ability, etc.), which I think is saying more than people who discredit 'Puff as unimportant/uncared for out of the anime would like to admit. In the end it's futile comparing the two (for anything besides preference), I think, since one is playable, and the other is a Pokeball, which further fuels the intentional-or-not bias on most peoples' views.

 

[BluePikmin11]

I honestly care too much about snake right now to worry about pokemon.
I mean, if Mewtwo doesn't return then I'm pretty sure Sakurai just hates pokemon, but i don't think he does so i'm not worried about mewtwo.

Paper mario could also represent the mario rpg games.

That's a weird assumption, I don't really think he hates Pokemon at all.

 

[Muster]

I apologize for being blunt on this, but I think that's reaching. There's no proof that it being a rare commodity did anything for it in the mindset of players, and as you said, it didn't affect its popularity. So it really has no basis in showing how popular the character is because it doesn't stand out in that regard compared to others in its group, and nothing shows that it being a part of that group did anything for it.

Similarly, there is no proof that Meowth's presence in that group did anything negative for his popularity either. The original argument is moot, and i don't care what else comes up if that is proven so.
edit: 3 at once? seriously?

That's a weird assumption, I don't really think he hates Pokemon at all.

That's my thought if sakurai does not include mewtwo in this game, despite him being number one on polls worldwide.

Still more than Meowth or its evolution got. I'd also argue that Persian gets more spotlight than Wigglytuff, being both Giovanni's go-to evil cat, and being in Red's team in Origins, including for the Elite 4/Champion battles. So against all of that, the Igglybuff line got all the love (type change, stat increase, new ability, etc.), which I think is saying more than people who discredit 'Puff as unimportant/uncared for out of the anime would like to admit. In the end it's futile comparing the two (for anything besides preference), I think, since one is playable, and the other is a Pokeball, which further fuels the intentional-or-not bias on most peoples' views.

Not going to argue the same point twice.

This really isn't about a pokemon line, it's about the pokemon themselves. Wigglytuff is the only pokemon that got a stat boost in the jiggly line. The only part of the argument i was in was the gameplay part. Meowth is still more commonly used competitively than jigglypuff, contrary to the original post's beliefs, and no Buff to Persian or Wigglytuff will change that.

The last part still doesn't matter, as i was arguing Meowth's popularity, and that certainly isn't the only factor for putting pokemon in smash. I've also already showed the trophy description for meowth regarding him as a popular pokemon.

 

[Rockaphin]

Goomba, correct?
Man I want him too! That moveset potential!

Goomba would flat out own every character on the roster. Sakurai knows this and that's why he will not be playable. Too OP!

 

[Substitution]

Goomba would flat out own every character on the roster. Sakurai knows this and that's why he will not be playable. Too OP!

You're right. I am a fool.
THE WORLD ISN'T READY YET! But we can make it ready...