Character Discussion Thread

[Louie G.]

it only took us who knows how many years to realize the Jigglypuff in the anime was a shiny.

It took me up until today.

 

[Hotfeet444]

It took me up until today.

Understandable, I just realized it last week.

 

[False Sense]

Looks like you're wrong there buddy, that not the only reason:
http://nintendoeverything.com/sakur...er-in-new-smash-bros-just-to-surprise-people/

Because his illusions prove that he worth the playable addition, and better than Jigglypuff, who took a few moves from Kirby, and the singing, resting, pounding, and rolling as her moveset. Which isn't much of a stand-out unique at all in reality.

Very well then. But I don't think that means that Sakurai is just going to start adding characters just because of their potential. Again, Wii Fit Trainer alone is all right, but adding too many characters that people didn't expect or want isn't the proper way to go about things if you want people to actually buy the game. Also, in a developer direct, Sakurai did say that he looked at character requests and that "pretty much no one expected (Wii Fit Trainer) to join the battle." I think the fact that she was unexpected was a reason for her inclusion. Not the only one, but it played a part in her selection. And that's not something that should be repeated multiple times.

Also, if Jigglypuff isn't unique because she is similar to Kirby, doesn't that mean that we should replace characters like Luigi who are very similar to another character and don't offer that much as a unique character? There are plenty of Mario characters out there that could be unique. Why not get rid of what's not that unique and replace it with something new and shiny? It's pretty much the same situation.

There's also in the criteria of the most important factor, uniqueness.

I really don't think that's the case. This is, and always has been, a game for Nintendo All-Stars. That's what the game is known for being. If all that mattered was being unique, we'd see a vastly different roster of characters entirely, perhaps even original, unique, Smash characters over Nintendo characters. Also there probably wouldn't be clones.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

...but isn't the anime sort of the reason why Jigglypuff got in the first place?

In the first place. Meowth was planned to be a playable character over her, actually, yet she still got in while Meowth was a Pokeball Pokemon. Here we are, over a decade since Jigglypuff has left the anime while Meowth has gone onto being in nearly episode of it, yet Jigglypuff is still the one in Smash Bros. If the anime ever had any importance before, it sure doesn't seem like it does now. Being a veteran since the very start of the series seems to be Jigglypuff's trump card right now.

Meowth is a very iconic Pokemon well loved by video game fans far and wide.
His popularity comes from the anime but so does Jigglypuff's and Pikachu's (more importantly).
It probably won't happen but it would be the only thing that would make my happy if Jiggs was cut.

Video game fans. Meaning folks that play the games in specific, not just folks who watch the anime. Is that segment of Pokemon Channel where Meowth throws a CGI party and his few voice-lines in Pokemon Puzzle League his claim to fame?

My only point is that Meowth literally has nothing worthwhile if you don't factor the anime. Sakurai doesn't seem to do between the lack of Ash (who is more well known to the public than Red), the lack of recognition of any kind of talking Meowth in Melee and Brawl's trophies (though the Meowth's Party trophy adds insult to injury to the cancelled game), or really, the lack of anything that doesn't have to do with the games directly, so I don't think it's much of a stretch to not see the anime has significant at all in this setting.

Honestly, I don't see anyone good that could replace Jigglypuff at all. Again, she's obscure in the scale of Pokemon, but as a Smash character, she's definitely as significant to the as Luigi series. That's gotta be something.

If you're looking at Pokemon characters outside of Pikachu, no Pokemon has had as much regular exposure as Meowth. Is it because of the anime? Yes, yes it is. But because of it, Meowth is one of Nintendo's (not even just Pokemon's) regularly, consistently seen characters. One of it's major icons. And as long as Pokemon exists, this will likely be the case.

I almost feel as strongly about Meowth's inclusion as I do about Ridley's; it's criminal this character isn't already playable in SSB. However, it's more understandable given that the series has an entire, unlimited cast of characters from which to select, while Metroid is much more limited in options.

Regular exposure in the anime. The same team that actually develops the Pokemon games is not the same team that creates the Pokemon anime. It makes little sense for him to add a character in a video game to promote a show when he's supposed to be promoting the video games in the first place.

I'm not saying nobody would want Meowth, but from a marketing perspective and from a source-perspective, Meowth really doesn't seem justified at all.

 

[Sehnsucht]

Little Mac had his merits and had his demand in the west.
Villager had both of those statements.
And yes, were not going to add characters because just of uniqueness. Geno could be really unique, or maybe Skull Kid (Although is dead), but they don't have much overall contribution to their franchises and don't have much merits.

Geno is Third-Party, so that's a slightly different discussion (because Third-Parties have a different selection process). And Skull Kid is much lower on the Tier of Zelda Playability Probability, so his status as an Assist Trophy is both appropriate and a bit surprising (a pleasant surprise, I find).

The Zelda roster is presently good as-is since we have the core characters represented, so any further Zelda Newcomers are icing. That should be the ideal goal of the Smash series -- to try and complete represented series with their essential characters. An obvious example of this is Ridley's absence from the Metroid corner; a complete Metroid roster would include Samus, ZSS, and Ridley, so the latter's inclusion is preferable.

On the other hand, Villager is the mascot of Animal Crossing, being the playable avatar. As a result, he may be the only truly essential character from the Animal Crossing franchise, meaning that Nook is icing. Such "icing" characters would in theory be lower priority than essential All-Stars who have yet to be included with their home franchises.

Though this is straying into a different discussion topic. Point being that I would assert the above to be how one might distinguish essential versus supplemental additions to a represented franchise.

EDIT:

I should add that "essential" characters should also be weighed against the prominence of a series. The Mario franchise is much bigger than Animal Crossing, so the former is going to get more characters in Smash (because being bigger, it has more essential or core characters that can be represented).

Tom Nook may be a core character in AC in itself, for instance, but AC is a smaller franchise within Smash, so it invariably will get less characters, and will need less playable characters to properly represent AC in the Smash roster.

Yes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_Age:_Train_Your_Brain_in_Minutes_a_Day!

Cool. Thanks for the data.

I will have to go to the Kawashima thread and learn more about the character so that I can get a sense of how he would translate to a Smash environment. I'm still whatever about the character (probably because I know so little), but I do appreciate that you've put thought into his case.

 

[?????????????]

In the first place. Meowth was planned to be a playable character over her, actually, yet she still got in while Meowth was a Pokeball Pokemon. Here we are, over a decade since Jigglypuff has left the anime while Meowth has gone onto being in nearly episode of it, yet Jigglypuff is still the one in Smash Bros. If the anime ever had any importance before, it sure doesn't seem like it does now. Being a veteran since the very start of the series seems to be Jigglypuff's trump card right now.

Video game fans. Meaning folks that play the games in specific, not just folks who watch the anime. Is that segment of Pokemon Channel where Meowth throws a CGI party and his few voice-lines in Pokemon Puzzle League his claim to fame?

My only point is that Meowth literally has nothing worthwhile if you don't factor the anime. Sakurai doesn't seem to do between the lack of Ash (who is more well known to the public than Red), the lack of recognition of any kind of talking Meowth in Melee and Brawl's trophies (though the Meowth's Party trophy adds insult to injury to the cancelled game), or really, the lack of anything that doesn't have to do with the games directly, so I don't think it's much of a stretch to not see the anime has significant at all in this setting.

Honestly, I don't see anyone good that could replace Jigglypuff at all. Again, she's obscure in the scale of Pokemon, but as a Smash character, she's definitely as significant to the as Luigi series. That's gotta be something.

Two things.

1.) Why would you not factor the anime? It's one of the biggest parts of Pokemon.
2.) Lucario and Mewtwo talk in SSB. There's anime references right there.

Regular exposure in the anime. The same team that actually develops the Pokemon games is not the same team that creates the Pokemon anime. It makes little sense for him to add a character in a video game to promote a show when he's supposed to be promoting the video games in the first place.

Is that what Sakurai's supposed to do? Promote the video games? I thought he was promoting Nintendo. Of which the Pokemon anime is still a product of.

I've always seen SSB advertised as the clash between "Nintendo's Biggest All-Stars," not "video gaming's biggest all-stars."

I, for one, believe it makes no difference whether or not Meowth's significance comes from the games or the anime. It does not change his standing as a Nintendo character.

 

[FalKoopa]

I tend to compare Meowth and Toad. Both seem to be "just there" in their respective series, and get passed for other characters. I feel sorry for them.

 

[Hotfeet444]

Isn't the anime the reason Jigglypuff and Pikachu are in Smash in the first place?

Well, if we're going to be technical, the anime has a part behind each Pokemon's inclusion.

Pikachu: Anime made him the mascot of the series and he went on to be within the top 5 most famous videogame characters of all time.

Pokemon Trainer: While this character is probably more directly included thanks to the games, his pokemon have been made quite famous thanks to their appearances in the anime, especially Charizard.

Jigglypuff: As expected, the anime's Jigglypuff is what pushed for Jigglypuff's inclusion, especially thanks to really good feedback from the Japanese audience.

Mewtwo: One of the most famous and recognizable pokemon after Pikachu, is known for being the huge movie star of the pokemon series, and all the pokemon movies directly link to the anime.

Pichu: While to a lesser extent, Pichu's appearance in the beginning short movie in Pokemon the Movie 3 is easily what led to Pichu's ideal inclusion in Melee, especially when Pichu is battled in Fourside, mirroring the capital city in the short movie.

Lucario: While the new pokemon of the new generation, Lucario's movie is what was the big push for his inclusion in Brawl, and the movie directly relates to the anime. Not to mention Lucario talks in Brawl, just like the Lucario in the movie.

While the anime is not the be-all-end-all of character selection, each pokemon character has indeed had ties to the anime, be it minor or major.

 

[Muster]

My only point is that Meowth literally has nothing worthwhile if you don't factor the anime. Sakurai doesn't seem to do between the lack of Ash (who is more well known to the public than Red), the lack of recognition of any kind of talking Meowth in Melee and Brawl's trophies (though the Meowth's Party trophy adds insult to injury to the cancelled game), or really, the lack of anything that doesn't have to do with the games directly, so I don't think it's much of a stretch to not see the anime has significant at all in this setting.

.

I thought Meowth's party tech demo was a preview for pokemon channel.

Pokemon channel does have meowth's party, and young me would watch it over and over again as it is semi randomized what he does during the concert.

Two things.

1.) Why would you not factor the anime? It's one of the biggest parts of Pokemon.
2.) Lucario and Mewtwo talk in SSB. There's anime references right there.

Anime affecting the games? no way

 

[BluePikmin11]

Very well then. But I don't think that means that Sakurai is just going to start adding characters just because of their potential. Again, Wii Fit Trainer alone is all right, but adding too many characters that people didn't expect or want isn't the proper way to go about things if you want people to actually buy the game. Also, in a developer direct, Sakurai did say that he looked at character requests and that "pretty much no one expected (Wii Fit Trainer) to join the battle." I think the fact that she was unexpected was a reason for her inclusion. Not the only one, but it played a part in her selection. And that's not something that should be repeated multiple times.

Also, if Jigglypuff isn't unique because she is similar to Kirby, doesn't that mean that we should replace characters like Luigi who are very similar to another character and don't offer that much as a unique character? There are plenty of Mario characters out there that could be unique. Why not get rid of what's not that unique and replace it with something new and shiny? It's pretty much the same situation.

Again, I know that just uniqueness won't let a character into Sakurai's house.
Luigi is there because he has his giant merits, and he is a very iconic Mario (and videogames in general) character. His overall importance and other factors are extremely high that it really would a kick from the boot to not include him. Jigglypuff was added originally for another filler Pokemon character that had body similarities to Kirby to make it easier to develop. Luigi was not filler at all.

On the other hand, Villager is the mascot of Animal Crossing, being the playable avatar. As a result, he may be the only truly essential character from the Animal Crossing franchise, meaning that Nook is icing. Such "icing" characters would in theory be lower priority than essential All-Stars who have yet to be included with their home franchises.

Though this is straying into a different discussion topic. Point being that I would assert the above to be how one might distinguish essential versus supplemental additions to a represented franchise.

Even though Nook is a icing candidate, he offers alot of potential no other characters. He can take Raccoon Mario elements from SMB3 (Because Villager uses Balloon Fighter's balloons) and can offer moves such as furniture and debt. It's a lot of potential if given the time and thought, no one has done that kind of vocation for an actual moveset before.

Cool. Thanks for the data.

I will have to go to the Kawashima thread and learn more about the character so that I can get a sense of how he would translate to a Smash environment. I'm still whatever about the character (probably because I know so little), but I do appreciate that you've put thought into his case.

You are welcome.

 

[False Sense]

Again, I know that just uniqueness won't let a character into Sakurai's house.
Luigi is there because he has his giant merits, and he is a very iconic Mario (and videogames in general) character. His overall importance and other factors are extremely high that it really would a kick from the boot to not include him. Jigglypuff was added originally for another filler Pokemon character that had body similarities to Kirby to make it easier to develop. Luigi was not filler at all.

Luigi was pretty much a pure clone in the original game. Jigglypuff may have borrowed traits from Kirby, but it was still its own unique character. On top of that, Jigglypuff was a pretty big icon to Pokemon at the time, partially thanks to the anime. While that may have died down now, Jigglypuff is still a recognizable pokemon overall, and, again, is currently notable in the series for being one of only a few older pokemon to receive the Fairy typing. So, Jigglypuff is both a unique character and one that has importance to its series. Why cut Jigglypuff now for some other pokemon that, while unique, isn't that important, especially when Jigglypuff, as it is, is perfectly fine as a Smash character?

Also, what about the thing Sakurai said about no cuts being planned? Doesn't that mean that no characters will simply be replaced?

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Two things.

1.) Why would you not factor the anime? It's one of the biggest parts of Pokemon.
2.) Lucario and Mewtwo talk in SSB. There's anime references right there.

1.) Because the anime isn't the video games. When Sakurai adds characters into Smash Bros., he's promoting their video game series first and foremost. He doesn't add characters based on who is prominent in the Pokemon TCG, nor the line of toys, nor the manga, nor the anime. All of those are completely separate entities from games like Black & White and X & Y. I understand that Meowth as a fictional character is widely-known and very likable. My argument is that as a video game character, the same way every single other character in Smash Bros. is acknowledged when being added, he does not hold up at all to Jigglypuff.

2.) I can't deny that much--that is an anime reference. However, Lucario and Mewtwo themselves actually have prominence within the video games. Lucario has been available in every game since its inception and has stayed as a consistently popular Pokemon across the games. Mewtwo is the outright most famous legendary Pokemon and has had important roles in various Pokemon games (both mainseries and spin-off) as bonus bosses/post-game legendaries, the most recent of which being in X&Y. Both have gotten Mega Evolutions to boot, which can't be said for Zoroark, Genesect, and Meowth. They nod to the anime, but they aren't in Smash Bros. solely because of the anime. That's the difference between them and Meowth.

Anime affecting the games? no way

I didn't see a single mention of Ash, bicycles, fear of bugs, Togepi, or literally anything that has to do with her anime incarnation. She's a gym leader that got a trophy. I don't see how this affects anything in Smash.

 

[Sehnsucht]

Even though Nook is a icing candidate, he offers alot of potential no other characters. He can take Raccoon Mario elements from SMB3 (Because Villager uses Balloon Fighter's balloons) and can offer moves such as furniture and debt. It's a lot of potential if given the time and thought, no one has done that kind of vocation for an actual moveset before.

Is it that Newcomers are chosen in great part because of their moveset potential, or that they are chosen for other reasons, and are then made to be unique?

A question for the philosophers, clearly. XP

I do appreciate how the Newcomers thus far have unique mechanics. I do also expect, however, that most of the Newcomers will be given unique gameplay touches anyway, whether or not they are chosen for uniqueness first and foremost.

So if Nook gets in, chances are he'd be made unique whether or not he is selected primarily for uniqueness, primarily for worthiness, or primarily for whatever other factor. As a result, I don't see this Unique Above All Else line of reasoning to be as strong a trump card if the apparent goal of Smash 4 is to make Newcomers unique to begin with (irrespective of the reasons for their inclusion).

At this point, having considered these matters, the only really questionable element in your roster is Zororark-for-Jigglypuff (and at least the lack of Ridley). You've made your case for Kawashima, though his actual probability and priority are hard to assess. The cutting of Snake is understandable, since the inclusion or exclusion of Third-Parties is left entirely to Sakurai's discretion (as well as the discretion of the Third-Party Companies in question), though I'd prefer not to cut Snake (or any Veterans).

 

[?????????????]

1.) Because the anime isn't the video games. When Sakurai adds characters into Smash Bros., he's promoting their video game series first and foremost. He doesn't add characters based on who is prominent in the Pokemon TCG, nor the line of toys, nor the manga, nor the anime. All of those are completely separate entities from games like Black & White and X & Y. I understand that Meowth as a fictional character is widely-known and very likable. My argument is that as a video game character, the same way every single other character in Smash Bros. is acknowledged when being added, he does not hold up at all to Jigglypuff.

2.) I can't deny that much--that is an anime reference. However, Lucario and Mewtwo themselves actually have prominence within the video games. Lucario has been available in every game since its inception and has stayed as a consistently popular Pokemon across the games. Mewtwo is the outright most famous legendary Pokemon and has had important roles in various Pokemon games (both mainseries and spin-off) as bonus bosses/post-game legendaries, the most recent of which being in X&Y. Both have gotten Mega Evolutions to boot, which can't be said for Zoroark, Genesect, and Meowth. They nod to the anime, but they aren't in Smash Bros. solely because of the anime. That's the difference between them and Meowth.

I didn't see a single mention of Ash, bicycles, fear of bugs, Togepi, or literally anything that has to do with her anime incarnation. She's a gym leader that got a trophy. I don't see how this affects anything in Smash.

Pikachu, without the anime, holds no significance. Anything special Pikachu has in the games is a reference to the anime.

Also, I updated my previous post beforehand, so please look at those as well.

 

[Curious Villager]

Wasn't one of the reasons they chose Pikachu over Clefairy for the anime because he was a pretty popular Pokemon with Pokemon Red and Blue/Green players?

And because it was more in between cool for boys, cute for girls instead of mostly girly.

 

[Parmite]

Wasn't the reason they chose Pikachu over Clefairy for the anime because he was a pretty popular Pokemon with Pokemon Red and Blue players?

And because it was more in between cool for boys, cute for girls instead of mostly girly.

i think it was mostly the second reason.

 

[Muster]

I didn't see a single mention of Ash, bicycles, fear of bugs, Togepi, or literally anything that has to do with her anime incarnation. She's a gym leader that got a trophy. I don't see how this affects anything in Smash.

Misty is in her anime outfit in that trophy. In the games she wears a bathing suit.

 

[?????????????]

Wasn't the reason they chose Pikachu over Clefairy for the anime because he was a pretty popular Pokemon with Pokemon Red and Blue players?

Somewhat.

My entire understanding of the situation is this; Clefairy was originally considered for it's role in the manga. However, they felt it wasn't a good fit for the anime (for that secondary reason).

Logically speaking, you can't have Ash start with a regular starter Pokemon; every kid who plays the game would pick that one. So, if you start looking at Pokemon you can catch early on, your choices are Rattata, Caterpie, Weedle, Pidgey, and Pikachu. Out of those options, Pikachu fits the bill quite nicely.

In a manner of speaking, that is the case because of the situation within itself. Of the Pokemon you can begin the journey with outside of the starters, Pikachu stands out.

 

[AEMehr]

Why should Meowth replace Jigglypuff exactly? When you don't factor in the anime (which has had little to nothing to do with Smash Bros.), Jigglypuff literally has every edge over Meowth.

I'm going to have to Object to that budd.

The anime has more to do with how characters are decide than you'd think. Looking at Hotfeet's post.
I mean if the anime doesn't matter, why should the movies? Why did Jigglypuff even get in the first place then?
Also Pizza mentioned before, both Lucario and Mewtwo spoke in Melee and Brawl, as their anime counterparts did as well.

Meowth will always be a relevant Pokémon if the anime stays alive. He's been in every movie too, that should count for something as well, shouldn't it?

When you're not factoring Smash Brothers, Meowth trumps Jigglypuff in every way possible. Of course, with that said, if anyone was to replace Jigglypuff as a lock for every Smash game, Meowth would be the obvious choice.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Luigi was pretty much a pure clone in the original game. Jigglypuff may have borrowed traits from Kirby, but it was still its own unique character. On top of that, Jigglypuff was a pretty big icon to Pokemon at the time, partially thanks to the anime. While that may have died down now, Jigglypuff is still a recognizable pokemon overall, and, again, is currently notable in the series for being one of only a few older pokemon to receive the Fairy typing. So, Jigglypuff is both a unique character and one that has importance to its series. Why cut Jigglypuff now for some other pokemon that, while unique, isn't that important, especially when Jigglypuff, as it is, is perfectly fine as a Smash character?

Also, what about the thing Sakurai said about no cuts being planned? Doesn't that mean that no characters will simply be replaced?

Things can change if there are time constraints, and Jigglypuff overall was unique, but not highly unique to be possibly be kept forever in the Pokemon cast for someone even more unique. Him stating the Pokemon criteria shows he's still looking for Pokemon characters to add, the fact that he even has one proves that Pokemon truly has tons of worthy options.

@ Sehnsucht In actuality, I would've kept Snake, but I wanted to keep the roster at a minimum of 50. And I don't really see 5 third parties happening.

 

[Curious Villager]

Somewhat.

My entire understanding of the situation is this; Clefairy was originally considered for it's role in the manga. However, they felt it wasn't a good fit for the anime (for that secondary reason).

Logically speaking, you can't have Ash start with a regular starter Pokemon; every kid who plays the game would pick that one. So, if you start looking at Pokemon you can catch early on, your choices are Rattata, Caterpie, Weedle, Pidgey, and Pikachu. Out of those options, Pikachu fits the bill quite nicely.

In a manner of speaking, that is the case because of this situation within itself. Of the Pokemon you can begin the journey with outside of the starters, Pikachu stands out.

I see, I suppose I've read somewhere that they decided to go for Pikachu because he was already a pretty popular Pokemon among the Pokemon Red and Blue/Green players as he was one of the first Pokemon you could catch early on in the game and people used it a lot in their games. So they decided to go for Pikachu instead of Clefairy or the three starters as it's a pokemon that is quick and easy to obtain and without picking any favourites among the three starters (plus Ash would catch all three of them anyway).

So I thought the anime more or less contributed further to it's popularity instead of starting it for him...

 

[?????????????]

So I thought the anime more or less contributed further to it's popularity instead of starting it for him...

More or less, yes. Strictly speaking, the actual starter Pokemon were still more popular than Pikachu before the anime started, not to mention other popular Pokemon like Mewtwo.

 

[Curious Villager]

More or less, yes. Strictly speaking, the actual starter Pokemon were still more popular than Pikachu before the anime started, not to mention other popular Pokemon like Mewtwo.

Yeah I guess I can imagine that, yes.

 

[AEMehr]

Regardless, the Anime matters. Sakurai said they look at it and the evidence is there.
Of course, Meowth probably will never get to be in a smash game because he gets out shined by the poster movie characters and that hurts my soul.

Like Falkoopa said, he's basically Pokémon's Toad.

 

[?????????????]

Yeah I can imagine that, yes.

One example I like to throw out is this; let's say that the 3rd generation of Pokemon, Hoenn, was the first generation instead. Using the same criteria, I would guess that Ralts would potentially become Ash's starter Pokemon.

Had this been the case, Ralts would, in turn, be playable in SSB. Likewise, had they gone through with Ash starting with Clefairy, Clefairy would have been playable in SSB.

On game merit alone, Pikachu is not special. The anime played enough of a role to make that change.

 

[Arcanir]

In the first place. Meowth was planned to be a playable character over her, actually, yet she still got in while Meowth was a Pokeball Pokemon. Here we are, over a decade since Jigglypuff has left the anime while Meowth has gone onto being in nearly episode of it, yet Jigglypuff is still the one in Smash Bros. If the anime ever had any importance before, it sure doesn't seem like it does now. Being a veteran since the very start of the series seems to be Jigglypuff's trump card right now.

Minor nitpick here, there was no proof that Meowth was even considered. The only characters we know were intended to be in 64 were King Dedede, Mewtwo and Bowser, everyone else suggested is hearsay.

Having said that, I don't agree with your point about the anime's influence, but that's already been covered.

 

[Curious Villager]

One example I like to throw out is this; let's say that the 3rd generation of Pokemon, Hoenn, was the first generation instead. Using the same criteria, I would guess that Ralts would potentially become Ash's starter Pokemon.

Had this been the case, Ralts would, in turn, be playable in SSB. Likewise, had they gone through with Ash starting with Clefairy, Clefairy would have been playable in SSB.

On game merit alone, Pikachu is not special. The anime played enough of a role to make that change.

Yeah that's true, I didn't say that the anime had nothing to do with it. But partly why they chose Pikachu for the anime, in which raised it's popularity and eventually got it playable in Super Smash Bros.

 

[Sonsa]

OK, valid point, but why everyone is already predicting DLC characters?

Because he said he was open to the idea and some characters, like Snake, show signs of...no work done on them yet. So maybe after he's finished with the game and saves the Wii U he sees fan outcry and adds a few more stages and a character or two. Data on Brawl's disc showed Mewtwo, Roy, and others so maybe if he had more time or considered DLC, we could've seen them. Now he has the opportunity.

 

[?????????????]

Yeah that's true, I didn't say that the anime had nothing to do with it.

Oh, I know. I'm just throwing out general statements.

 

[Curious Villager]

Oh, I know. I'm just throwing out general statements.

Oh I see then, sorry for the misunderstanding then.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

Krystal? Don't you mean Bluetits Mcfurrydream?

Hi Tyler!

Krystal debuted in StarFox Adventures you bumbling buffoon

Fixed

Jigglypuff will never be replaced by anyone, so the point is moot. But I will always believe that Meowth deserves a spot. He is much more deserving than many others.

Hes right, Jigglypuff is never getting the bus ride.

 

[?????????????]

Before my more recent roster changes, Meowth was the last character I removed from my roster. This was my special moveset for him.

B: Pay Day- Like his appearance in Brawl, Meowth rapidly launches a barrage of coins as long as you hold the button. The damage is light, but pushes opponents away.

B>: Thief- Meowth lunges forward and latches on to an opponent, then kicks them away. If the opponent was holding an item, Meowth takes it. This includes items produced by characters (Link's bombs, Peach's vegetables, etc).

B^: Fury Swipes- Meowth rapidly slashes upward into the air, carrying opponents with it in a claw combo attack.

Bv: Dig- Meowth burrows into the ground, allowing it to travel underground for 2-3 seconds. While underground, Meowth is immune to most attacks. At the end of the duration of the move, or if the button is released earlier, Meowth emerges with an uppercut claw swipe. Meowth cannot dig into thin platforms; instead, he falls through. If Meowth reaches the edge of a platform while digging, he will fall out.

Final Smash: Hone Claws-As a reference to several special appearances in the anime, Meowth's claws grow to very large proportions, massively increasing his range, damage, and changing Pay Day into a move where Meowth rapidly slashes to create traveling cyclones.

As far as normal moves go, Meowth is mainly a combo heavy, speed based slashing character that moves a lot while attacking, like Wolverine in many fighting games.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

This may be one of the biggest one-man battles I've ever had to fight. Any upcoming snark aside, I'd like to hope I'm at least being more fair about my arguments than a certain somebody else.

Pikachu, without the anime, holds no significance. Anything special Pikachu has in the games is a reference to the anime.

Also, I updated my previous post beforehand, so please look at those as well.

No significance? Nothing special outside the anime? Okay. I guess we can disregard his availability in every single mainseries game, starring his own series, appearing on the boxart of almost every single spin-off game, being seen in every single spin-off game, being a starting playable character in various other spin-offs, having a huge amount of event distributions, and of course, being a damn veteran in every title of Smash Bros. Every single one of those things has to do with the anime, right? Silly me for thinking Pikachu has anything going on outside of the anime. *Grumble grumble*

Is that what Sakurai's supposed to do? Promote the video games? I thought he was promoting Nintendo. Of which the Pokemon anime is still a product of.

I've always seen SSB advertised as the clash between "Nintendo's Biggest All-Stars," not "video gaming's biggest all-stars."

I, for one, believe it makes no difference whether or not Meowth's significance comes from the games or the anime. It does not change his standing as a Nintendo character.

So you can name a time we've seen another series' TV show being nodded to in Smash Bros.? Or maybe something in Brawl's chronicle that wasn't a video game? How about the masterpieces showing us the clip of a show? Non-video game Nintendo products like the Ultra Hand or Hanafuda Cards? Something that isn't a video game? Unless you start grasping for straws, you can clearly see that Smash Bros. is about the video games of Nintendo, nothing else.

inb4 R.O.B., who is the direct association of a video game and has made various appearances in other Nintendo games.

Misty is in her anime outfit in that trophy. In the games she wears a bathing suit.

Add some straps and it's the exact same thing.

You're otherwise doing a good job at showing the exception to what I'm talking about rather than establishing the regularity of anime references. One trophy doesn't exactly prove a point.

I'm going to have to Object to that budd.

The anime has more to do with how characters are decide than you'd think. Looking at Hotfeet's post.
I mean if the anime doesn't matter, why should the movies? Why did Jigglypuff even get in the first place then?
Also Pizza mentioned before, both Lucario and Mewtwo spoke in Melee and Brawl, as their anime counterparts did as well.

Meowth will always be a relevant Pokémon if the anime stays alive. He's been in every movie too, that should count for something as well, shouldn't it?

When you're not factoring Smash Brothers, Meowth trumps Jigglypuff in every way possible. Of course, with that said, if anyone was to replace Jigglypuff as a lock for every Smash game, Meowth would be the obvious choice.

Again, I already acknowledged that the first Smash Bros. seems to have drawn from the anime, but in terms of directly choosing Pokemon, it hasn't since. There have been slight nods, but nothing as significant as adding Ash or making Meowth talk. Honestly, even with Lucario and Mewtwo having talked in Smash Bros., the fact that Meowth has never been acknowledged to talk, instead being a Pay Day using Pokemon (which is something the anime explicitly shows that the anime Meowth cannot do) that can't talk. If there was ever to be a playable Meowth in Smash Bros., wouldn't it need to be acknowledged in the form we think of first? It's like if we were all high one day and wanted to see Captain N Mother Brain in Smash Bros. If she's only ever been seen in her in-game incarnations, what hope is there ever for seeing the version from the show?

If his appearances in the anime really did count, he would have been added a long time ago. The fact that he hasn't shows that he likely never will, considering Meowth wasn't even considered for Melee despite having the time while Jigglypuff stayed in. Sakurai clearly does not look at the anime as a direct source for choosing Pokemon, merely past Smash Bros. and the source games. Like I've otherwise said before, Jigglypuff literally has every edge over Meowth in the games in terms of appearances and being a Smash character.

Minor nitpick here, there was no proof that Meowth was even considered. The only characters we know were intended to be in 64 were King Dedede, Mewtwo and Bowser, everyone else suggested is hearsay.

Having said that, I don't agree with your point about the anime's influence, but that's already been covered.

I think that nitpick only works in favor of anti-Meowth then if we don't even know if he was being considered...

=========

Jeez, that was a lot to type up...

 

[Muster]

Fixed

It was a reference, not a typo.

Bv: Dig- Meowth burrows into the ground, allowing it to travel underground for 2-3 seconds. While underground, Meowth is immune to most attacks. At the end of the duration of the move, or if the button is released earlier, Meowth emerges with an uppercut claw swipe. Meowth cannot dig into thin platforms; instead, he falls through. If Meowth reaches the edge of a platform while digging, he will fall out.

Meowth's number one counterpick is 75 m

Add some straps and it's the exact same thing.

You're otherwise doing a good job at showing the exception to what I'm talking about rather than establishing the regularity of anime references. One trophy doesn't exactly prove a point.

Exactly, that version of misty doesn't have straps, but the anime version does. The trophy is directly based off of the anime version of Misty.
I was just pointing out how the anime isn't completely ignored by the games, not trying to say it's some miracle combatant to your argument.

 

[Louie G.]

Hey, since today is the 2nd anniversary of Kid Icarus: Uprising in the States, my favorite 3DS game (MAYBE behind Pokémon Y), let's have a good ol' Kid Icarus discussion, huh?

And did you guys know that the sound clip of Topegi in Melee IS THE EXACT SAME ONE FROM THE FIRST MOVIE?
Found that one out the other day when watching Mewtwo Strikes Back. It was a great discovery and I was waiting for this exact argument to share.

 

[?????????????]

This may be one of the biggest one-man battles I've ever had to fight. Any upcoming snark aside, I'd like to hope I'm at least being more fair about my arguments than a certain somebody else.


No significance? Nothing special outside the anime? Okay. I guess we can disregard his availability in every single mainseries game, starring his own series, appearing on the boxart of almost every single spin-off game, being seen in every single spin-off game, being a starting playable character in various other spin-offs, and of course, being a damn veteran in every title of Smash Bros. Every single one of those things has to do with the anime, right? Silly me for thinking Pikachu has anything going on outside of the anime. *Grumble grumble*

Without Pikachu's appearance in the anime, none of these things would exist. Not to mention many of those spin-off titles extend the invitation to Meowth with befitting special roles, such as in Pokemon Yellow and Pokemon Channel. Not as many roles as Pikahcu, but more than many other Pokemon.

EDIT: In fact, I even said "Anything special Pikachu has in the games is a reference to the anime" in my previous post.

So you can name a time we've seen another series' TV show being nodded to in Smash Bros.? Or maybe something in Brawl's chronicle that wasn't a video game? How about the masterpieces showing us the clip of a show? Non-video game Nintendo products like the Ultra Hand or Hanafuda Cards? Something that isn't a video game? Unless you start grasping for straws, you can clearly see that Smash Bros. is about the video games of Nintendo, nothing else.

No, I can't. But I believe Pokemon is exceptional enough. It's the only Nintendo based thing with something outside of it's games to have a large enough portion outside of it's games to merit serious consideration.



And don't worry, your arguments are reasonable enough; being fair. But they are arguments I've seen plenty of times.

 

[Louie G.]

I would bet that without the anime, we wouldn't have gotten Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Pichu, or Lucario.
Heck, maybe not even Mewtwo (but probably Mewtwo eventually).
GameFreak recommends Pokémon based on the next movies coming out, usually.
Mewtwo Strikes Back for Melee.
Lucario's for Brawl.
And Extremespeed Genesect/Origins for Smash 4.

 

[?????????????]

Without the anime? If it never existed?

It depends on several things then. If Pokemon choices were based solely on the main games, perhaps Mewtwo or a starter Pokemon, probably Charizard, would have been playable in SSB64.

Or, if the manga still existed but not the anime, maybe we'd get a foul-mouthed comedic talking Clefairy.

 

[Louie G.]

Without the anime? If it never existed?

Yeah, I meant if it never existed. Perhaps Pokémon wouldn't even have 4 reps if it weren't for the anime's success.

It depends on several things then. If Pokemon choices were based solely on the main games, perhaps Mewtwo or a starter Pokemon, probably Charizard, would have been playable in SSB64.

I would bet Mewtwo and either Bulbasaur or Charizard. Maybe Blastoise or Venusaur instead of Mewtwo, actually.
This is a very interesting topic, I want to keep talking about this.

Or, if the manga still existed but not the anime, maybe we'd get a foul-mouthed comedic talking Clefairy.

I would kill for that.

And lol everyone look at your profiles.
What's up with that Captain Falcon glitch?

 

[Arcanir]

No significance? Nothing special outside the anime? Okay. I guess we can disregard his availability in every single mainseries game, starring his own series, appearing on the boxart of almost every single spin-off game, being seen in every single spin-off game, being a starting playable character in various other spin-offs, and of course, being a damn veteran in every title of Smash Bros. Every single one of those things has to do with the anime, right? Silly me for thinking Pikachu has anything going on outside of the anime. *Grumble grumble*

All of which came after the anime, which means that merchandise could still be related to his popularity from it.

, nothing else.

Add some straps and it's the exact same thing.

Yellow was heavily influenced by the anime, so that makes sense.

I think that nitpick only works in favor of anti-Meowth then if we don't even know if he was being considered...

I'm aware it does, I was just being nitpicky since that's common misinformation. Really though, my disagreement with your argument comes more from the idea that the anime doesn't have influence on Smash, which is contradicted by the representation of the Pokémon.

I would bet that without the anime, we wouldn't have gotten Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Pichu, or Lucario.
Heck, maybe not even Mewtwo (but probably Mewtwo eventually).
GameFreak recommends Pokémon based on the next movies coming out, usually.
Mewtwo Strikes Back for Melee.
Lucario's for Brawl.
And Extremespeed Genesect/Origins for Smash 4.

If we had no movies or the anime, I would say the only characters that would do well without are Charizard and Mewtwo, maybe Lucario as well as it does feature prominently in the games anyway (Riley in DPPt, easy to catch in B2W2, Mega Evolution in XY).

This is of course assuming that Pokémon maintains the same relative popularity.

Edit: Ninja'd on most of the points.