Character Discussion Thread

[Substitution]

?

MY LOGIC IS BRILLIANT!!1!!

 

[Deleted member]

It just depends on how big the roster is going to get.

If you ask me, each Smash should keep the core roster and trade out for new characters with the extra slots for each installment.

What defines "core"?

 

[Substitution]

What defines "core"?

I'd probably say the bare bones of the roster.
Like Mario, Pikachu, Link, and of that like.

By the by, is anybody else ashamed to admit their peculiar desire to witness the Wario Waft in HD?

*slowly raises hand*

 

[FinalStarmen]

While I am not holding my hopes up too high, I would appreciate a few more Wario Land/World inspired attacks integrated into Wario's move-set. In fact, I am rather inquisitive as to what improvements would be implemented with Wario, if any; Lucario and Diddy Kong had certain aspects about their move-sets buffed already, so why not Wario?

By the by, is anybody else ashamed to admit their peculiar desire to witness the Wario Waft in HD?

 

[Deleted member]

The most logical changes for Wario are simply making the side smash a side special that lets you constantly dash (the bike can be a replacement up or down special). It makes no sense to have his dashing move on a chargeable smash. I find that Sakurai makes the oddest choices for dashing type moves. Samus doesn't have her charging tackle from Super Metroid and Donkey Kong doesn't have his classic roll.

 

[Headcrab Jackalope]

I'd probably say the bare bones of the roster.
Like Mario, Pikachu, Link, and of that like.

That's what I think. Probably:

Maybe throw in or .

 

[Deleted member]

That's what I think. Probably:

Maybe throw in or .

Two Ness? Ninten confirmed!

 

[Substitution]

That's what I think. Probably:

Maybe throw in or .

I would say throw in:

And we're good.

 

[Deleted member]

Sakurai is always a stickler for a good roster size that has a rigid number of rows by columns. I imagine it'll be something like 8 a row, in 4 columns to make 32 immediately playable, and another row and column for the unlockable characters. It was a similar case in Brawl where we ended up with a 9x4 character select screen, when the alter egos like Sheik and ZSS are part of one "slot."

 

[Headcrab Jackalope]

Two Ness? Ninten confirmed!

Dang it. Fixed.

I would say throw in:

And we're good.

Ice Climbers and Game and Watch are kind of maybes. Falco isn't really needed if you have Fox. Peach can go either way. I already had Lucario on there. Pokémon Trainer is the same as Peach. Jigglypuff isn't really hugely important anymore. R.O.B is also a maybe. I left out third parties, and I felt like Sheik was implied.

Disclaimer: I support all these characters.

 

[Substitution]

Ice Climbers and Game and Watch are kind of maybes. Falco isn't really needed if you have Fox. Peach can go either way. I already had Lucario on there. Pokémon Trainer is the same as Peach. Jigglypuff isn't really hugely important anymore. R.O.B is also a maybe. I left out third parties, and I felt like Sheik was implied.

Disclaimer: I support all these characters.

IC and G&W have already been in two games.
If anything, they would've been cut by Brawl.
Falco is all right. He's just as iconic as Fox is.
Peach is a major part of the Mario franchise.
Same goes with PKMN Trainer.
Jiggs, like IC and G&W, would've been cut a long time ago if she wasn't important anymore.
ROB is admittedly a big part of Nintendo's history.

 

[RadRedi]

I think that a bare-bones roster would look more like this:

Necessities:
()
So, basically, series mascots with a few sidekicks and villains thrown in for the bigger franchises. Mother, Pokemon, and Fire Emblem only have Ness, Pikachu, and Marth, respectively, due to the fluid nature of those series ( so we can assume that, in future installments, there will be characters that deserve to be in Smash, outside of just the PKMN and FE characters we've already seen). Also, Mr. Game & Watch is arguably the father of all retros (as in, he represents Nintendo's entry into video gaming), so he's up there alone.

Secondaries:

These characters, while still titular, in their own right, aren't as important as the above. While they aren't expendable, they aren't exactly necessary to keep Smash afloat.

Anyone else could arguably be swapped out from game-to-game.

I didn't put any third-parties up there because, while they are a great way to expand Smash's fan base, they aren't a necessity. Their games aren't Nintendo, therefore, they're probably the most expendable characters on the roster.

I know that it's a controversial statement to say that any characters in Smash ever aren't in the "necessary" category, but this is a hypothetical "worst case scenario, characters are being swapped out for new ones every couple of games" scenario. And Sakurai's priorities would most certainly be different than mine, I'm sure.

 

[Substitution]

I think that a bare-bones roster would look more like this:

Necessities:
()
So, basically, series mascots with a few sidekicks and villains thrown in for the bigger franchises. Mother, Pokemon, and Fire Emblem only have Ness, Pikachu, and Marth, respectively, due to the fluid nature of those series. Also, Mr. Game & Watch is arguably the father of all retros (as in, he represents Nintendo's entry into video gaming), so he's up there alone.

Secondaries:

These characters, while still titular, in their own right, aren't as important as the above. While they aren't expendable, they aren't exactly necessary to keep Smash afloat.

Anyone else could arguably be swapped out from game-to-game.

I didn't put any third-parties up there because, while they are a great way to expand Smash's fan base, they aren't a necessity. Their games aren't Nintendo, therefore, they're probably the most expendable characters on the roster.

I know that it's a controversial statement to say that any characters in Smash ever aren't in the "necessary" category, but this is a hypothetical "worst case scenario, characters are being swapped out for new ones every couple of games" scenario. And Sakurai's priorities would most certainly be different than mine, I'm sure.

As long as I can still play as Mr. G&W. I'm fine...

 

[UltimateWario]

Elaborate. You mean like, keep core members like Mario and Pit, but shift out Rosalina for Toad or something in the next game?

What defines "core"?

Of course, it's just my opinion, but primary "Hero" and "Villain" archetypes would define the roster. If possible, each series would have both a "Hero" character and a "Villain" character, and the roster would be divided down the middle, with "Hero" characters on the left and "Villain" characters on the right (these terms are used very loosely, for example, Wario, King DeDeDe, and Meta Knight would be on the villain side). When adding a new series into Smash, focus would be on adding both the primary protagonist and antagonist, if possible. If a series has no primary antagonist, only the hero is added. (Also, in the case of 3rd Parties, only Heroes are added.)

This allows for a little more overall representation, and allows for character relationships to be better explored. For example, every character has a villain or rival, thus allowing for more unique single-player modes and extras (banter between foes during/before/after fights).

After that point, secondary main characters are added (and those driven by fan popularity), then there are "open" spaces that would be regularly switched out to give as much exposure to different characters as possible, similar to the Marvel vs. Capcom series. Generally, the "bigger" a series is, the more "Open Slots" it is granted alongside the main cast, but this can fluctuate. Here's an example roster.

Spoiler

NOTE: In my fantasy Smash, characters are the #1 priority. Features like trophies, single player modes, etc., all take a back seat to adding fun, unique characters that make the installment stand apart from the previous versions. This allows for a larger roster.

Heroes
Super Mario Bros.: Mario, Luigi, Peach, OPEN SLOT (Toad, Rosalina, Paper, E. Gadd, etc.)
The Legend of Zelda: Link, Zelda/Sheik, OPEN SLOT (Secondary Link, Ravio, etc.)
Donkey Kong (Country): Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, OPEN SLOT (Cranky Kong, Dixie Kong, etc.)
Metroid (Prime): Samus/ZSS
Kirby (of the Stars): Kirby
Pokemon: Pikachu, OPEN SLOT x3 (Literally any Pokemon, shared with "Villains")
Star Fox: Fox, Falco
Fire Emblem: Marth, OPEN SLOT (Ike, Roy, Chrom, Lucina, Robin, etc.)
F-Zero: Captain Falcon
Mother (Earthbound): OPEN SLOT (Ness, Lucas, Ninten, etc.)
OTHER: Yoshi, Olimar, Villager, Mr. Game & Watch, POPULAR MODERN CHARACTER SLOT x3-4 (WFT, Isaac, Shulk, etc.)
"RETRO": Pit, Palutena (Added for Popularity), Little Mac, OPEN SLOT x2 (Ice Climbers, Takamaru, Lip, R.O.B., etc.)

Villains
Super Mario Bros.: Bowser, OPEN SLOT x2 (Fawful, Cackletta, Bowser Jr., Count Bleck, King Boo, etc.)
The Legend of Zelda: Ganondorf, OPEN SLOT (Skull Kid, Vaati, Ghirahim, Classic Ganon, etc.)
Donkey Kong (Country): King K. Rool
Metroid (Prime): Ridley
Kirby (of the Stars): King DeDeDe, Meta Knight
Pokemon: Mewtwo, OPEN SLOT x3 (Literally any Pokemon, shared with "Heroes")
Star Fox: Wolf
Fire Emblem: Medeus, OPEN SLOT (Black Knight, General Zelgius, etc.)
F-Zero: Black Shadow
Mother (Earthbound): Porky
OTHER: Wario, POPULAR MODERN CHARACTER VILLAIN SLOT x3-4 (Matches up with whatever popular modern characters are added.)
"RETRO": Medusa, King Hippo, OPEN SLOT x2 (Matches up with whatever Retros are added.)

ABOUT OPEN SLOTS
Open slots may be given and taken from game to game, depending on demand. For example, if demand for another Star Fox character got high enough, a new Star Fox slot might be opened up. As stated above, the larger the franchise, the more open slots you get in addition to your primary roster. However, balance between the Hero and Villain sides is considered when handing these slots out, so a series with several "major" protagonists will likely get more Villain slots (e.g., Mario).

While a character may not make it into one Smash or another, this system does allow more characters to be represented, rather than constraining the roster to previous limitations. Secondary characters may be switched out for more "relevant" or popular choices, but this gives each game its own identity rather than each installment being a simple "upgrade" of the last one. Resources would be sunk into making fun, unique characters, colorful, beautiful stages, and catchy, loving remixes of popular Nintendo music rather than focusing on single-player modes or extraneous features like Masterpieces and stickers.

In particular, this system allows for Pokemon to be more widely represented rather than adhering to the same representatives +1 in every game. More unique Pokemon in Smash with each installment, but you likely won't be seeing them again after that game.

EDIT: I'm still remembering characters to be put on the roster, forgive me if I forget someone.

inb4 everyone mad that their favorite character is an open slot

 

[BluePikmin11]

Ness is pretty debatable, despite being a Smash original, I see the possibility of him being cut. I think Ness and Lucas could debatably be on either secondaries or necessities.

 

[Substitution]

Ness is pretty debatable, despite being a Smash original, I see the possibility of him being cut. I think Ness and Lucas could debatably be on either secondaries or necessities.

Here's how I see it.
If the original twelve have been able to make it this far.
There's no reason to cut them now.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Here's how I see it.
If the original twelve have been able to make it this far.
There's no reason to cut them now.

Unless Game Freak wants to promote with a newcomer, and replacing a Pokemon is the only way to promote it.

 

[Substitution]

Unless Game Freak wants to promote with a newcomer, and replacing a Pokemon is the only way to promote it.

Once again.
If one was gonna be cut, would've been a long time ago.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Once again.
If one was gonna be cut, would've been a long time ago.

Yes, but there were Ness was almost replaced by Lucas during Melee, and Jigglypuff was very low priority in Brawl for some reason.
I don't know about you, but I feel like that this time they have a chance to be cut this time, they just had very lucky instances to keep them in the roster.

 

[Substitution]

Yes, but there were Ness was almost replaced by Lucas during Melee, and Jigglypuff was very low priority in Brawl for some reason.
I don't know about you, but I feel like that this time they have a chance to be cut this time, they just had very lucky instances to keep them in the roster.

Once again.
With Ness, he had the same opportunity to cut him in Brawl. But then why keep him?

And once again, the "low priority" thing is just a theory.
There's no real evidence supporting it. And knowing how Toon Link, one that was considered "low priority", got in...

 

[BluePikmin11]

Once again.
With Ness, he had the same opportunity to cut him in Brawl. But then why keep him?

And once again, the "low priority" thing is just a theory.
There's no real evidence supporting it. And knowing how Toon Link, one that was considered "low priority", got in...

I see, I just wanted to bring it up to discussion to make things interesting.

 

[Gune]

@ UltimateWario That's a actually very interesting system when it comes to charecter inclusions though I think PT and Lucario are considered heroes.

 

[Starcutter]

Unless Game Freak wants to promote with a newcomer, and replacing a Pokemon is the only way to promote it.

too bad they'd probably just have a 6th pokemon character instead.


(wait, too bad? that's better than cutting imo)

 

[Shorts]

I really don't see any reason why Nook should be playable, as for now, Villager seems to be enough.

Can't you say that about pretty much every character?

I really don't see any reason why Goroh should be playable, as for now, Falcon seems to be enough.

I really don't see any reason why Ridley should be playable, as for now, Samus seems to be enough.

I really don't see any reason why Rosalina should be playable, as for now, Peach seems to be enough.

I really don't see any reason why Palutena should be playable, as for now, Pit seems to be enough.

 

[AEMehr]

I feel like some people could contribute more to the Boards than arguments that only piss people off more. I acknowledge that Toad could have a moveset; I just think he's not iconic enough. I mean, he had Wario's Woods, but every other character other than Bowser has had a new game in the last ten years starring them, and until Toad gets one, I won't support him. Not because of "muh recency", mind you, but that he just doesn't ooze potential like Bj's paintbrush and Rosalina's Luma.

Uh, would you mind listing these characters?
The only other ones that come to mind are the ones that are already playable in Smash Brothers. Toad is the only other Mario character with a starring role that isn't playable in Smash.

But I wasn't arguing for that, I was arguing for his moveset potential. I doubt Toad will be making it this time around.

 

[SuperBrawler]

In my opinion if any Pokemon character is replaced it should be Mewtwo.

 

[Starcutter]

I'm going to go create a "probability tier list" for potential newcomers.


see you guys in an hour or so

 

[Shorts]

Toad is one of the most iconic video game characters of all time. Him not being playable has less to do with iconicism and more to do with Sakurai not being that down for it, for whatever reason.

Maybe he'll show up in Smash 5. Maybe Rosalina and Junior will fall out of the spot light. Or, maybe we will see a new important character take their place.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

My opinion on Nook: It depends if there's enough room in an already moderate roster for him to be squeezed in and if Sakurai would rather spend less resources making him a semi-clone with minimal differences. As much as I love that raccoon dog (or tanooki), I'm still on the fence in terms of two AC reps in SSB4. This is coming from a guy who wanted Villager more than Nook before he was confirmed.

 

[Louie G.]

In my opinion if any Pokemon character is replaced it should be Mewtwo.

That's idiotic. I'm sorry, it is.
Mewtwo is possibly the most important Pokemon barring Pikachu himself. Cutting Mewtwo happened, but probably even Sakurai knows it was a mistake. While Pokemon Trainer is very important to Pokemon as a whole, I find it more expendable due to the development time it takes to make. Jigglypuff is no longer important, even the Fairy typing doesn't do much to make her relevant again. Lucario is very important, but not to the extent of Pokemon's most iconic legendary.
So Mewtwo getting replaced happened, but I have a good feeling that it won't happen again.

Spoiler

Also says the guy who supports Pichu's return.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Toad is one of the most iconic video game characters of all time. Him not being playable has less to do with iconicism and more to do with Sakurai not being that down for it, for whatever reason.

Maybe he'll show up in Smash 5. Maybe Rosalina and Junior will fall out of the spot light. Or, maybe we will see a new important character take their place.

I think the answer is pretty clear, uniqueness, and that is what Toad doesn't provide.

 

[UltimateWario]

Maybe he'll show up in Smash 5. Maybe Rosalina and Junior will fall out of the spot light. Or, maybe we will see a new important character take their place.

Rosalina, maybe, but I don't think (or want) Jr. (to) is going anywhere.

 

[Substitution]

My opinion on Nook: it depends if there's enough room in an already moderate roster for him to be squeezed in and if Sakurai would rather spend less resources making him a semi-clone with minimal differences. As much as I love that raccoon dog (or tanooki), I'm still on the fence in terms of two AC reps in SSB4. This is coming from a guy who wanted Villager more than Nook before he was confirmed.

Honestly, coming from a guy who likes Villager more.
They can do things with him. They could use a "debt" system. Or let him use various furniture.

But yeah, Villager's enough for right now.
Speaking of which...

Anyone planning on maining Villager? I'm considering it.

 

[Louie G.]

I think the answer is pretty clear, uniqueness, and that is what Toad doesn't provide.

Toad isn't clone material, but he doesn't bring new mechanics to the table.
Being over-the-top unique isn't always the answer to a character's addition.

 

[RadRedi]

I see, I just wanted to bring it up to discussion to make things interesting.

If you don't mind my jumping into this discussion, there are a few reasons I see Ness being an inevitable shoe-in for Smash.

1) The Mother series isn't going anywhere. Despite being a dead franchise, similar franchises such as F Zero aren't going anywhere, so why should Mother?

2) Ness is the face of Mother. The same way people think of Pikachu for Pokemon, Olimar for Pikmin, or Marth for Fire Emblem, Ness is the most recognizable Mother character.This is true not only because of Ness's perfect attendance in Smash Bros, but because Earthbound is the only Mother game to get any release outside of Japan.

Lucas, while a main character with just as much importance as Ness in his own right, just isn't immediately recognizable to people outside of Japan. It's safe to say Lucas won't ever leave Japan apart from Smash Bros, too. Meanwhile, Earthbound is available on the Wii U eShop.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Toad isn't clone material, but he doesn't bring new mechanics to the table.
Being over-the-top unique isn't always the answer to a character's addition.

Yeah I know, there's also merits to consider too.

If you don't mind my jumping into this discussion, there are a few reasons I see Ness being an inevitable shoe-in for Smash.

1) The Mother series isn't going anywhere. Despite being a dead franchise, similar franchises such as F Zero aren't going anywhere, so why should Mother?

2) Ness is the face of Mother. The same way people think of Pikachu for Pokemon, Olimar for Pikmin, or Marth for Fire Emblem, Ness is the most recognizable Mother character.This is true not only because of Ness's perfect attendance in Smash Bros, but because Earthbound is the only Mother game to get any release outside of Japan.

Lucas, while a main character with just as much importance as Ness in his own right, just isn't immediately recognizable to people outside of Japan. It's safe to say Lucas won't ever leave Japan apart from Smash Bros, too. Meanwhile, Earthbound is available on the Wii U eShop.

If Mother 3 was released in America, I would have considered Ness being cut.

 

[Substitution]

Lucas, while a main character with just as much importance as Ness in his own right, just isn't immediately recognizable to people outside of Japan. It's safe to say Lucas won't ever leave Japan apart from Smash Bros, too. Meanwhile, Earthbound is available on the Wii U eShop.

Well, Mother 3 does have a huge cult following.
So he isn't that obscure.

 

[Shorts]

Rosalina, maybe, but I don't think (or want) Jr. (to) is going anywhere.

I feel ya

I think the answer is pretty clear, uniqueness, and that is what Toad doesn't provide.

You're probably right. He could definitely be unique, but I wouldn't consider him one of the "obvious" unique choices. Him and Junior have that in common. Of course Toad has Mario items, and super strength, and Junior has gadgets and paintbrushes, but maybe they weren't as obvious to Sakurai.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

Toad isn't clone material, but he doesn't bring new mechanics to the table.
Being over-the-top unique isn't always the answer to a character's addition.

Well we all do know that Rosalina's pretty unique for a Peach look-alike, and she's pretty hot!

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Honestly, coming from a guy who likes Villager more.
They can do things with him. They could use a "debt" system. Or let him use various furniture.

But yeah, Villager's enough for right now.
Speaking of which...

Anyone planning on maining Villager? I'm considering it.

I'll main him as a longtime fan of Animal Crossing. As for the debt system and furniture idea, that would be neat since it makes him a bigger threat than Villager. The debt system vs. pocket ability would be an interesting match.