Character Discussion Thread

[Starcutter]

Opinions guys. Respect 'em.

Everyone has a different view of what characters are essential. I believe a new Pikmin character is essential, but I'm willing to bet 90% of the Smash fanbase disagrees.

I feel the same about Yoshi

 

[Kenith]

I didn't assert that Palutena wouldn't get in before Hades. I don't expect Hades. I am just stating my opinion, again, this is entirely subjective.
Secondly, I don't mean to be crass, but I don't really care how you interpret Meowth. Meowth is an antagonist by definition, as he is the main character in regards to an antagonistic archetype, he is the main antagonist by definition. This is only in regards to the anime, this notion isn't applicable to the video-game franchise, to be more concise.
Again, by definition. He appears in almost every single episode of the anime. So he is the main antagonist of the anime, not the video-game. I never insinuated anything to that extent.

I'm pretty sure Meowth wasn't in the anime at some point.
Meowth is a central character in the anime. However, I would not call him the main antagonist, as he is not the leader of Team Rocket.

Furthermore, unlike the other Pokemon characters in Smash Bros, Meowth's character conflicts with his in-game counterpart(s).
Lucario and Pikachu, and the others, are all influenced by the anime, but they don't do anything that specifically pertains to it, with the exception of voices.

Meowth, however, is mostly known for things his species can't do, like talking, for instance. The Meowth you're thinking of is exclusive to the anime, which Sakurai mentioned is not allowed.

 

[FalKoopa]

The only reason Meowth has a chance of being considered is because of the anime.

The anime does play a role in Pokémon choices, but I think it doesn't affect character chances as much as before. Meowth, in particular, is like Toad. He's there, but he tends to be skipped over.

Calling Meowth the main villain of the anime is a bit... odd. Of course, he's there in every episode, but he's usually following orders. Calling the Rocket Trio as the main villain would be more fitting.

 

[Morbi]

I don't what you mean. Palutena has been in all 3 Kid Icarus games. Hades only shows up in Uprising.

Hades being an actual Greek God is just a flat out stupid reason. As Xenoblaze mentioned, Palutena was modeled after Athena. Not that either matters. Sakurai isn't simply going to choose Hades because people know the name from History class. Thats just asinine.

Meowth may be "villainous", but Mewtwo is far more fitting for the villain role. If he wasn't, why wasn't Meowth added instead? Meowth has had monumentous amounts of time to get in. He's been there the whole time. He is certainly not "essential".

It isn't necessarily about the amount of his appearances, it is more pertinent to allude to his role in the appearance. It may have only been once, but that isn't necessarily going to stop Sakurai from adding someone like Chrom into the roster, the magnitude of the role and the prominence of the actual game are relevant in my opinion.

Palutena isn't necessarily associated with Athena though, Hades is associated with Hades. Again, I feel the desire to express this once more, I am not asserting that he is likely, I do not think that Sakurai will include Hades based on his recognizable name. I believe it to be a factor to consider.

So he isn't essential because he is not in, yet? That is fallacious logic. I suppose Ridley isn't essential because he isn't in, yet? It isn't necessarily a fair comparison, but that isn't the premise I am trying to make overt. He is just as essential as he always was, subjectivity is the relevant notion as of current. Clearly, Sakurai doesn't interpret him as necessary, and neither do you. That doesn't necessarily change the fact that an extremely prominent character interpreted as one of the main antagonists is missing.

Hades from KI and Hades from Greek Mythology are not entwined, the former draws from the latter in terms of basis but just like the aforementioned Palutena and Athena the relationship ends there. Hades in KI is not more well known or recognized just because his name's the same as a god, that's not going to carry him farther then any of the other KI characters and especially not Mario.

Precisely, they are not, but the mere association is enough for the player to evoke an emotion connection to the character. It isn't as though Hades only has his name going for him, his personality was quite enjoyable and I am sure many agreed. He has move-set potential, he is unique, he has aesthetic diversity. His allusion to the Greek God is really only one of the reasons I actually think he is essential. I do believe that it could carry the series if done properly though, not necessarily as many Smash players are already Nintendo fans, but his inclusion would make Kid Icarus an important staple to Nintendo as it would retain the necessary exposure to promote the franchise. I believe that Fire Emblem Awakening is in a similar situation. One could argue that Palutena is enough, but that is obviously where I disagree.

I wouldn't be opposed to Medusa though.

 

[Deleted member]

Essential newcomers?

....honestly, there really is no "essential" characters at this point. Brawl covered that IMO.
I guess however, arguments can be made for the likes of Ridley, more DK in general, etc.

EDIT: Now it's just more along the lines of "who else would be great?".

 

[Kenith]

Essential newcomers?

....honestly, there really is no "essential" characters at this point. Brawl covered that IMO.
I guess however, arguments can be made for the likes of Ridley, more DK in general, etc.

EDIT: Now it's just more along the lines of "who else would be great?".

Ridley, I think, would be an "essential" newcomer. If Mewtwo counts as a newcomer, him too.

 

[Morbi]

I'm pretty sure Meowth wasn't in the anime at some point.
Meowth is a central character in the anime. However, I would not call him the main antagonist, as he is not the leader of Team Rocket.

Furthermore, unlike the other Pokemon characters in Smash Bros, Meowth's character conflicts with his in-game counterpart(s).
Lucario and Pikachu, and the others, are all influenced by the anime, but they don't do anything that specifically pertains to it, with the exception of voices.

Meowth, however, is mostly known for things his species can't do, like talking, for instance. The Meowth you're thinking of is exclusive to the anime, which Sakurai mentioned is not allowed.

Actually, that does answer a lot of questions. It doesn't really alter the notion that I find him essential, but I never found him likely to begin with. I wasn't entirely sure why he wasn't already in Smash, but that summarizes quite effectively. It is surprising as you are literally the first to assert this (that I have seen).

 

[Deleted member]

....the argument in regards to talking was thrown out the window by both Mewtwo and Lucario. Especially Lucario, since Mewtwo doesn't talk in overseas Melee.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I consider Mewtwo, Little Mac, and Ridley to be essential. I think a DK newcomer is essential as well.

 

[Kenith]

Actually, that does answer a lot of questions. It doesn't really alter the notion that I find him essential, but I never found him likely to begin with. I wasn't entirely sure why he wasn't already in Smash, but that summarizes quite effectively. It is surprising as you are literally the first to assert this (that I have seen).

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

I get what you mean with Hades, but I still don't think that makes him an "essential" character.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

It isn't necessarily about the amount of his appearances, it is more pertinent to allude to his role in the appearance. It may have only been once, but that isn't necessarily going to stop Sakurai from adding someone like Chrom into the roster, the magnitude of the role and the prominence of the actual game are relevant in my opinion.

Palutena isn't necessarily associated with Athena though, Hades is associated with Hades. Again, I feel the desire to express this once more, I am not asserting that he is likely, I do not think that Sakurai will include Hades based on his recognizable name. I believe it to be a factor to consider.

So he isn't essential because he is not in, yet? That is fallacious logic. I suppose Ridley isn't essential because he isn't in, yet? It isn't necessarily a fair comparison, but that isn't the premise I am trying to make overt. He is just as essential as he always was, subjectivity is the relevant notion as of current. Clearly, Sakurai doesn't interpret him as necessary, and neither do you. That doesn't necessarily change the fact that an extremely prominent character interpreted as one of the main antagonists is missing.


Precisely, they are not, but the mere association is enough for the player to evoke an emotion connection to the character. It isn't as though Hades only has his name going for him, his personality was quite enjoyable and I am sure many agreed. He has move-set potential, he is unique, he has aesthetic diversity. His allusion to the Greek God is really only one of the reasons I actually think he is essential. I do believe that it could carry the series if done properly though, not necessarily as many Smash players are already Nintendo fans, but his inclusion would make Kid Icarus an important staple to Nintendo as it would retain the necessary exposure to promote the franchise. I believe that Fire Emblem Awakening is in a similar situation. One could argue that Palutena is enough, but that is obviously where I disagree.

I wouldn't be opposed to Medusa though.

That's not what I'm saying in regards to Meowth. What I'm saying, is that if Meowth was actually essential, why wouldn't he have been added when the character was new or not overshadowed by plenty of other choices? Mewtwo does more than enough to be considered much more of a big bad than Meowth does by more than a few miles.

Meowth has become a mainstay to the anime, but if he was essential, then I would think that he would have been put in Brawl or Melee. Considering the movies are a big indicator, Mewtwo is almost a guarantee.

But eh. Whatever. To each their own.

 

[Morbi]

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

I get what you mean with Hades, but I still don't think that makes him an "essential" character.

It derives from my narcissism, I discern the meaning of "essential" quite differently as my most wanted newcomers are the only essential newcomers. Perhaps, I should have made that notion more apparent.

I mean, if we are talking about actual "essential" characters, Golden is the most correct. Another Donkey Kong representative (I prefer K. Rool) and Ridley are the ones with the most compelling arguments.

 

[BKupa666]

The 'essential' character talk is fruitless because, by and large, people come to consider the characters who became playable 'essential,' whereas, if a character didn't become playable, they were never needed to begin with. Like, imagine one of the really popular Brawl characters didn't become playable...one of the Kirby newcomers, or Diddy, or Wario, or Wolf (Mewtwo is already a case of this). There would still be talk about how that character is expendable, and how Sakurai's judgment reflects this, when, in reality, Sakurai is just one guy who has preferences just like the rest of us, just with those preferences defining most Nintendo series for the next generation.

 

[Deleted member]

@Morbid:
And Mewtwo, if he/it is being treated as a Newcomer as opposed to a Veteran.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

By personal criteria, then yea any character can be essential. But by actual terms, there are few essentials.

 

[Kenith]

Well, if we're going by personal opinion, I know an incredibly essential character...

 

[Morbi]

That's not what I'm saying in regards to Meowth. What I'm saying, is that if Meowth was actually essential, why wouldn't he have been added when the character was new or not overshadowed by plenty of other choices? Mewtwo does more than enough to be considered much more of a big bad than Meowth does by more than a few miles.

Meowth has become a mainstay to the anime, but if he was essential, then I would think that he would have been put in Brawl or Melee. Considering the movies are a big indicator, Mewtwo is almost a guarantee.

But eh. Whatever. To each their own.

You are quite convincing, I will just admit that I am delusional. I thought that Meowth was the blatantly obvious main antagonist (along with Team Rocket, of course, he was the most prominent interpretation of Rocket in my opinion), it seems that no one agrees. Perhaps I discern something different about Meowth, I am not even a fan of the character, I just couldn't fathom the injustice of his non-inclusion. I actually did research the topic, slightly. Many find Mewtwo to be the main antagonist. Personally, I do mean to sound pretentious, I perceive them as lunatics. Subjectivity is wonderful, if people don't agree with you, they are stupid and/or crazy. I am guilty of it myself.

 

[FalKoopa]

BKupa is correct. As an example, if Sakurai had not shot down the Villager during Brawl, he would have been considered an essential newcomer (or shoo-in) for Smash 4.

 

[Kenith]

You are quite convincing, I will just admit that I am delusional. I thought that Meowth was the blatantly obvious main antagonist (along with Team Rocket, of course, he was the most prominent interpretation of Rocket in my opinion), it seems that no one agrees. Perhaps I discern something different about Meowth, I am not even a fan of the character, I just couldn't fathom the injustice of his non-inclusion. I actually did research the topic, slightly. Many find Mewtwo to be the main antagonist. Personally, I do mean to sound pretentious, I perceive them as lunatics. Subjectivity is wonderful, if people don't agree with you, they are stupid and/or crazy. I am guilty of it myself.

You are either extremely intelligent or extremely crazy.

Spoiler

Or both.

 

[M23-X0]

Am I the only one wanting a really obscure character ? I'm not talking about Takamaru nor Lip, I'm talking about a character that no one would ever expect (like WFT).
Smash Melee introduced Ice climbers, that no one known, and introduced Fire Emblem which wasn't known outside of Japan, then we had Pit in Brawl.
In my opinion, Smash should add new series instead of overreping present ones. Am I the only one thinking this way ?

I like these types of characters because it helps us to know about great series. If Marth and Roy weren't on Melee, few peoples will known about the great serie that Fire Emblem is. And if Pit wasn't added in brawl, the great 3DS game wouldn't have existed. For that reason, I would like at least one really obscure characters that no one is waiting for. Because too many people are predicting Takamaru and Lip, I don't consider them as so obscure (even if I know that I'm wrong).
In the era of before Brawl, was Pit wanted or not ?

I'm starting this discussion, because many roster I saw were this way. Either Takamaru or Lip as the retro newcommer, and newcommer in existing series. Sakurai is unpredictable, and I hope that the real final roster will be that way.

 

[Deleted member]

Pit wasn't obscure.

Far from it; his inclusion was due to international popularity.

 

[M23-X0]

Pit wasn't obscure.

Far from it; his inclusion was due to international popularity.

Is that true ? Was Pit a popular wanted newcommer ?

 

[Deleted member]

Is that true ? Was Pit a popular wanted newcommer ?

Yes.

I was well aware that Pit was a popular character in both America and Japan. I tried as best I could to design this version of him in a way that reflected current tastes, so I’m happy to see him so well received.

The creator of Kid Icarus has even jokingly asked if he could make a spin-off using this Pit model.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Am I the only one wanting a really obscure character ? I'm not talking about Takamaru nor Lip, I'm talking about a character that no one would ever expect (like WFT).
Smash Melee introduced Ice climbers, that no one known, and introduced Fire Emblem which wasn't known outside of Japan, then we had Pit in Brawl.
In my opinion, Smash should add new series instead of overreping present ones. Am I the only one thinking this way ?

I like these types of characters because it helps us to know about great series. If Marth and Roy weren't on Melee, few peoples will known about the great serie that Fire Emblem is. And if Pit wasn't added in brawl, the great 3DS game wouldn't have existed. For that reason, I would like at least one really obscure characters that no one is waiting for. Because too many people are predicting Takamaru and Lip, I don't consider them as so obscure (even if I know that I'm wrong).
In the era of before Brawl, was Pit wanted or not ?

I'm starting this discussion, because many roster I saw were this way. Either Takamaru or Lip as the retro newcommer, and newcommer in existing series. Sakurai is unpredictable, and I hope that the real final roster will be that way.

Maybe Harry from the Virtual Boy game Teleroboxer, it's an underrated gem from the weakest Nintendo console yet.

 

[Deleted member]

Too big.

 

[Kenith]

Maybe Harry from the Virtual Boy game Teleroboxer, it's an underrated gem from the weakest Nintendo console yet.

There's a reason why it's underrated.

Because Virtual Boy was actually a safety hazard.

 

[Deleted member]

I've just thought about something Sakurai's team should fix for SSB4 that I think a very few people care about :

Spoiler

The overrepresentation of moves using the fire element.

 

[BluePikmin11]

There's a reason why it's underrated.

Because Virtual Boy was actually a safety hazard.

If only someone could make Teleroboxer remake with either Gameboy pallete or colored, that would be great.
The redness does hurt my eyes after a while.

 

[M23-X0]

Yes.

I am suprised, really suprised... I wasn't on popular forums before Smash 4 (I wasn't speaking proper english), and in the french forums that I was frequenting, no one knew Pit. To think that Sakurai included him because he was wanted... I'm suprised...

Maybe Harry from the Virtual Boy game Teleroboxer, it's an underrated gem from the weakest Nintendo console yet.

This is the type of character that I am talking ! By the way, he looks really interesting^^

 

[Kenith]

If only someone could make Teleroboxer remake with either Gameboy pallete or colored, that would be great.
The redness does hurt my eyes after a while.

You have a Virtual Boy? And it works? I bet that thing costs, like, 10,000 bucks.

 

[Deleted member]

We need Wario Land VB to be remade before Teleroboxer.
You want to talk underrated gems, that is shiniest.

 

[Morbi]

Am I the only one wanting a really obscure character ? I'm not talking about Takamaru nor Lip, I'm talking about a character that no one would ever expect (like WFT).
Smash Melee introduced Ice climbers, that no one known, and introduced Fire Emblem which wasn't known outside of Japan, then we had Pit in Brawl.
In my opinion, Smash should add new series instead of overreping present ones. Am I the only one thinking this way ?

I like these types of characters because it helps us to know about great series. If Marth and Roy weren't on Melee, few peoples will known about the great serie that Fire Emblem is. And if Pit wasn't added in brawl, the great 3DS game wouldn't have existed. For that reason, I would like at least one really obscure characters that no one is waiting for. Because too many people are predicting Takamaru and Lip, I don't consider them as so obscure (even if I know that I'm wrong).
In the era of before Brawl, was Pit wanted or not ?

I'm starting this discussion, because many roster I saw were this way. Either Takamaru or Lip as the retro newcommer, and newcommer in existing series. Sakurai is unpredictable, and I hope that the real final roster will be that way.

I actually feel the exact opposite. I don't associate with obscure characters as I have nothing to ascribe to their value. Obviously, that is an inherent quality of obscure characters and the very reason for their inclusion. However, Smash 4 isn't going to introduce excessive roster expansions. I would be much more content with including more obscure additions from prominent Nintendo franchises. Waluigi, Hades, Meowth, Tingle, Black Shadow, and Bandanna Dee would all satisfy my selfish desires. I would honestly prefer a character like Porky or Krystal far before a character that nobody cares about (even if their inclusion would pave the way for something enjoyable akin to Kid Icarus Uprising or Fire Emblem Awakening).

 

[BKupa666]

Another thing: all the hackneyed garbage about "Series Reps" being essential blinds people to characters' actual significance. Example, Bowser and Peach had every reason to both be in Melee, but, through the lens of "A Mario Rep is essential for Melee," you open the door for one of them to be cast out, deemed unnecessary by the masses for no reason other than (the Almighty Hardworking Genius) Sakurai's decision. Same could have been said about Zelda and Ganondorf, or Meta Knight and Dedede; it's the way most people are evaluating K. Rool and Dixie now, and could end up doing with other series in the future. Granted, there are varying degrees of necessity, and those characters aren't all on the same level in that regard, but still...a shared icon is no reason to pretend only one out of two characters is of key importance.

 

[BluePikmin11]

You have a Virtual Boy? And it works? I bet that thing costs, like, 10,000 bucks.

No I don't but I did watch a TAS of it on YouTube on the glorious HD TV:

We need Wario Land VB to be remade before Teleroboxer.
You want to talk underrated gems, that is shiniest.

True, I actually heard it was one of the better Virtual Boy games.

 

[Frostwraith]

Did someone say Hades is a more important and recognized Nintendo character than Mario? Wow, I'm impressed. Negatively impressed, mind that.

Kid Icarus: Uprising's Hades may be based on Greek Mythology Hades, but aside from the name and position of God of the Underworld, there's barely anything in common between them.

People may know about Hades as the God of the Underworld from Greek Mythology, but that doesn't necessarily mean they know about Hades from KI:U. A terrible argument to argue for Hades's inclusion, without a doubt.

Maybe Harry from the Virtual Boy game Teleroboxer, it's an underrated gem from the weakest Nintendo console yet.

Trophy or sticker at best. Maybe as an Assist Trophy... Anyway, anyone would hardly expect that character on the playable roster.

The only more obscure characters that have a chance are Takamaru or Lip. There's no way in hell a character from an incredibly obscure Virtual Boy game will make it to the roster.

Marth and Roy made into Melee because Fire Emblem is a popular series in Japan, very much unlike in the West. They were even considered to be removed in non-Japanese versions, which thankfully didn't happen.

The Ice Climbers actually brought something new to the roster. Between several NES title characters (including Mach Rider and Balloon Fighter), Sakurai found them to stand out the most, possibly due to the two characters in one mechanic.

 

[Sobreviviente]

 

[BluePikmin11]

All my yes, although he hasn't been prominent to Nintendo after 2 times appearing in Nintendo videos. (I think, I know one was in a Zombi U video)

 

[M23-X0]

I actually feel the exact opposite. I don't associate with obscure characters as I have nothing to ascribe to their value. Obviously, that is an inherent quality of obscure characters and the very reason for their inclusion. However, Smash 4 isn't going to introduce excessive roster expansions. I would be much more content with including more obscure additions from prominent Nintendo franchises. Waluigi, Hades, Meowth, Tingle, Black Shadow, and Bandanna Dee would all satisfy my selfish desires. I would honestly prefer a character like Porky or Krystal far before a character that nobody cares about (even if their inclusion would pave the way for something enjoyable akin to Kid Icarus Uprising or Fire Emblem Awakening).

I understand your point of view, but adding an obscure character will lead to the popularization of its serie. For example, you're talking about Porky from the Mother serie. It's because Smash Bros added Ness and Lucas that you know/want this character. If Sakurai includes a new obscure character, other characters from its serie will be wanted. Just to understand, how did you take Pit's inclusion back then ? Are you a supporter of Palutena now ?

 

[Morbi]

Did someone say Hades is a more important and recognized Nintendo character than Mario? Wow, I'm impressed. Negatively impressed, mind that.

Kid Icarus: Uprising's Hades may be based on Greek Mythology Hades, but aside from the name and position of God of the Underworld, there's barely anything in common between them.

People may know about Hades as the God of the Underworld from Greek Mythology, but that doesn't necessarily mean they know about Hades from KI:U. A terrible argument to argue for Hades's inclusion, without a doubt.


Trophy or sticker at best. Maybe as an Assist Trophy... Anyway, anyone would hardly expect that character on the playable roster.

The only more obscure characters that have a chance are Takamaru or Lip. There's no way in hell a character from an incredibly obscure Virtual Boy game will make it to the roster.

Marth and Roy made into Melee because Fire Emblem is a popular series in Japan, very much unlike in the West. They were even considered to be removed in non-Japanese versions, which thankfully didn't happen.

The Ice Climbers actually brought something new to the roster. Between several NES title characters (including Mach Rider and Balloon Fighter), Sakurai found them to stand out the most, possibly due to the two characters in one mechanic.

I stated the above; however, I didn't assert that he was the more recognizable Nintendo character, merely the more recognizable entity collectively.

Irrelevant to the notion I was attempting to convey; however, you are correct.

Again, nobody was asserting that.

I agree with this sentiment.

 

[Kenith]

I'd rather have a more specific character...