Character Discussion Thread

[Curious Villager]

From my observations, not as much as say, Waluigi or BJ, but certainly she was up there. Goes to show that we can't expect every requested character. Like Sakurai trollishly said himself.

Hmm... I wonder if popularity among other fandoms has a role to play too. Maybe she wasn't as popularly requested in terms of Smash Bros as some other Mario characters, but she was still a very popular character among the Mario fandom. Perhaps Sakurai also looks at what characters are popular to other fandoms and consider those too, and not just those who are specifically requested for Smash Bros?

 

[Gunla]

Um..........................................
Not sure if I would abbreviate Bowser Jr.'s name that way.

I don't want to know, but I'm sure I'll hauntingly figure it out eventually. Apologies for any mistaken terms you got out of it.

I'm just trying to understand what Rosalina is telling us. Does it not matter if a character looks similar to another already (and less requested), as long as they can offer a unique moveset?

I think this is really what Sakurai is indeed looking at. Someone could look madly generic, but as long as they play uniquely, they're a great candidate. People got Carl Clover Syndrome when they saw Rosalina at first, after all.

Hmm... I wonder if popularity among other fandoms has a role to play too. Maybe she wasn't as popularly requested in terms of Smash Bros as some other Mario characters, but she was still a very popular character among the Mario fandom. Perhaps Sakurai also looks at what characters are popular to other fandoms and consider those too, and not just those who are specifically requested for Smash Bros?

Fairly certain this could be the case. I mean, if he was just taking the obvious shots no one would be as interested. Taking suggestions and demographical likes from the Mario fans themselves is going to draw them to Smash. And we all know; Smash has to sell.

 

[Kenith]

Um...
Not sure if I would abbreviate Bowser Jr.'s name that way.

I've always abbreviated it that way. It's hilarious.

From my observations, not as much as say, Waluigi or Bowser Junior, but certainly she was up there. Goes to show that we can't expect every requested character. Like Sakurai trollishly said himself.

Which is why I vouch for Ghirahim Midna. At face value, she fits all the necessary criteria.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

What I think is that Rosalina must have stood out more to Sakurai more than any other Mario newcomer candidates in term of gameplay and uniqueness, he thought she could bring more to Smash than characters like Bowser Jr., Waluigi, Paper Mario etc.

This all being said, popularity and and importance are both factors as well, and I doubt she would have been chosen if she didn't become a more recurring Mario character nor if she was as popular as she is.

 

[Deleted member]

I think this is really what Sakurai is indeed looking at. Someone could look madly generic, but as long as they play uniquely, they're a great candidate.

Well then, I guess I'll be waiting for Krystal! Toddles!!

 

[ChikoLad]

Based on is not the same as "is". Toon Link isn't Wind Waker Link, he's Smash Brothers Toon Link.



I agree. But what does that have to do with any of the things we're talking about?



I think you are misinterpreting "why people like characters" versus "what made us like them and why they stand out in the context of a fighting game".



A character's story is not the "base concept" of Smash Bros. Sheik is really fun to play as, and that wouldn't change if she was her own character, or if she was actually Ganondorf in disguise.

I didn't say a character's story is the base concept of Smash Bros, I said the idea of putting characters people love into one game is it's base concept. It's what makes it so unique. However, for some characters, their backstory is what made them appealing. Again, Rosalina as my example. And Toon Link's backstory and expressive character are what make him appealing, and are what differentiate him from normal Link.

Also, it is Wind Waker Link. Everything he does is taken from Wind Waker. His stage is from Wind Waker (in Brawl). And his trophies were from Wind Waker. They'll surely represent more games with Toon Links, but the one in Smash 4 is still Wind Waker Link, as only he has the Wind Waker.

As for Rosalina, she is way more distinct compared to Daisy in appearance, character, and purpose. She got in because she was popular, had a specific purpose, represents one of Nintendo's most important games of the last generation, and is unique in every aspect.

 

[Kenith]

I didn't say a character's story is the base concept of Smash Bros, I said the idea of putting characters people love into one game is it's base concept.

You justified Toon Link's inclusion vs Paper Mario with TL's backstory. You exactly said this.

Also, it is Wind Waker Link. Everything he does is taken from Wind Waker. His stage is from Wind Waker (in Brawl). And his trophies were from Wind Waker. They'll surely represent more games with Toon Links, but the one in Smash 4 is still Wind Waker Link, as only he has the Wind Waker.

Exactly, all of those things are based on Wind Waker. But this isn't Wind Waker, this is Smash Bros, naturally there are deviations from the source material. It's Smash Bros Link, much like Link isn't Twilight Princess Link.[/quote][/quote]

 

[Curious Villager]

Fairly certain this could be the case. I mean, if he was just taking the obvious shots no one would be as interested. Taking suggestions and demographical likes from the Mario fans themselves is going to draw them to Smash. And we all know; Smash has to sell.

That could also be the case yes, they are trying to reach out to many fans after all. Taking solely popularly requested character may draw in those who more or less already planned to purchase the game, but taking it a step further and also including very popular but not as requested for Smash characters may be able to draw in more fans who may have not been as interested in Smash at first.

Of course this doesn't mean that Sakurai will be ignoring popularly requested characters for Smash, but he might also look at very popular but not as requested for Smash type characters like Rosalina as well. I guess if that's true then this might work in some characters favor but I guess we will have to wait and see about that.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I'm imagining a revamped Smash Bros would prioritize characters with actual importance for Nintendo versus Smash relevance.
It could mean cutting characters like Jigglypuff, R.O.B., and Ice Climbers, but also Ness, Captain Falcon, and, obviously, Snake.

stahp

 

[Gunla]

Of course this doesn't mean that Sakurai will be ignoring popularly requested characters for Smash, but he might also look at very popular but not as requested for Smash type characters like Rosalina as well. I guess if that's true then this might work in some characters favor but I guess we will have to wait and see about that.

It also certainly helps in cases when what the franchise fans and the Smash fans want for a franchise is the same. Like with Punch Out or Megaman in 4.

But the issue is that Sakurai may see something truly out of the regular ballpark out of either fields of Nintendo and surprise people. Which isn't WFT. Because there's reasons she was selected.

 

[Starphoenix]

Wii Fit Trainer's inclusion works because the concept behind her inclusion is that nobody actually asked for her, yet it took us by surprise. And while she doesn't have character in her own game, Sakurai went out of his way to give her one.

She doesn't work against the standard, she gives evidence to the only standard that exists; and that is the one that lies with Sakurai's discretion as developer. Trying to cherry pick an arbitrary evaluation to cast a negative light on Paper Mario when there is already evidence to the contrary. Many of the same arguments against Paper Mario were used against Rosalina, yet Sakurai found an interesting way to implement her that makes him look like a genius, and all of us silly. Paper Mario has that same potential. That's all I'm trying to say. Not trying to do mental gymnastics.

 

[Deleted member]

What I think is that Rosalina must have stood out more to Sakurai more than any other Mario newcomer candidates in term of gameplay and uniqueness, he thought she could bring more to Smash than characters like Bowser Jr., Waluigi, Paper Mario etc.

This all being said, popularity and and importance are both factors as well, and I doubt she would have been chosen if she didn't become a more recurring Mario character nor if she was as popular as she is.

And because he's adding Baby Bowser as a Yoshi newcomer, making Bowser Jr. redundant.

 

[Kenith]

stahp

Hey man, call me when Nintendo releases a new Mother/F-Zero game. Because Nintendo isn't telling us about it. I never said cutting any of those cuts were good ideas, but they could happen if Sakurai's sentiments isn't involved.

That could also be the case yes, they are trying to reach out to many fans after all. Taking solely popularly requested character may draw in those who more or less already planned to purchase the game, but taking it a step further and also including very popular but not as requested for Smash characters may be able to draw in more fans who may have not been as interested in Smash at first.

This is something I think should always be considered. Choosing these kinds of characters is never a bad idea.

 

[ChikoLad]

You justified Toon Link's inclusion vs Paper Mario with TL's backstory. You exactly said this.



Exactly, all of those things are based on Wind Waker. But this isn't Wind Waker, this is Smash Bros, naturally there are deviations from the source material. It's Smash Bros Link, much like Link isn't Twilight Princess Link.

[/quote][/quote]

I didn't, I mentioned it as one of the things that set him apart from normal Link, and give him his appeal. Mario and Paper Mario are LITERALLY the same character, just in a different art style. That's like me asking for Classic Sonic in a separate character slot.

But that's the thing, Toon Link STAYS SO TRUE to Wind Waker. It's literally the exact same character.
So I guess Sonic is "Smash Bros Sonic", or Snake is "Smash Bros Snake", or Mega Man is "Smash Bros Mega Man", etc, etc.

 

[Curious Villager]

It also certainly helps in cases when what the franchise fans and the Smash fans want for a franchise is the same. Like with Punch Out or Megaman in 4.

But the issue is that Sakurai may see something truly out of the regular ballpark out of either fields of Nintendo and surprise people. Which isn't WFT. Because there's reasons she was selected.

Yeah that does certainly help them.

Yeah there are cases where Sakurai does want to make his own choice if he sees something interesting in them, regardless if said character is overall popular or popularly requested like Wii Fit Trainer and R.O.B.

 

[Kenith]

But that's the thing, Toon Link STAYS SO TRUE to Wind Waker. It's literally the exact same character.
So I guess Sonic is "Smash Bros Sonic", or Snake is "Smash Bros Snake", or Mega Man is "Smash Bros Mega Man", etc, etc.

Um, yes, Snake is Smash Bros Snake because he is a combination of Solid Snake's costume and Big Boss's facial features created for Smash Bros.
Sonic doesn't have "incarnations" and borrows elements from the character's history, so yes, he is Smash Bros Sonic.
And Classic Mega Man has never been rendered in 3D.

 

[?????????????]

But that's the thing, Toon Link STAYS SO TRUE to Wind Waker. It's literally the exact same character.
So I guess Sonic is "Smash Bros Sonic", or Snake is "Smash Bros Snake", or Mega Man is "Smash Bros Mega Man", etc, etc.

Yeah. I mean, even with Toon Link, if you want to get nitpicky, he can't actually jump that high in Wind Waker, and the upward and downward stabs are moves from Adventure of Link.

 

[ChikoLad]

Snake is Smash Bros Snake because he is a combination of Solid Snake's costume and Big Boss's facial features.
Sonic doesn't have "incarnations" and borrows elements from the character's history, so yes, he is Smash Bros Sonic.
And Classic Mega Man has never been rendered in 3D.

Samus and Ness had never been rendered in 3D before Smash 64. That doesn't make them "Smash Bros Samus" and "Smash Bros Ness". Mega Man was also rendered in 3D in Mega Man Powered Up for the PSP, which is a remake of the original Mega Man. So no, it's just Classic Mega Man.

Sonic has many incarnations, but the one referenced in Smash Bros is the most widely known one alongside Classic Sonic. However, Modern Sonic is still capable of doing everything Classic Sonic does, and they are confirmed to be the same character. So no, it's not Smash Bros Sonic. It's Modern Sonic.

Solid Snake is a clone of Big Boss, and could easily grow his facial hair. Also, Snake in Brawl can communicate with characters Solid Snake knows on his codec, but Big Boss doesn't. So no, it's Solid Snake.

Also, the character bios in the game do not list them as different incarnations of the characters. They are literally the same characters, as we know them.

She doesn't work against the standard, she gives evidence to the only standard that exists; and that is the one that lies with Sakurai's discretion as developer. Trying to cherry pick an arbitrary evaluation to cast a negative light on Paper Mario when there is already evidence to the contrary. Many of the same arguments against Paper Mario were used against Rosalina, yet Sakurai found an interesting way to implement her that makes him look like a genius, and all of us silly. Paper Mario has that same potential. That's all I'm trying to say. Not trying to do mental gymnastics.

No, she doesn't work against the standard. The standard is that a character must have appeal of some kind. Wii Fit Trainer had that, and that's why she got in. Sakurai conceived the idea of Smash because taking APPEALING and BELOVED characters and putting them in a game is a fun idea, and he has said this is the essence of the franchise himself.

Also, the Rosalina naysayers were people who hardly get the character at all. I've always seen potential for her, since Brawl, and many others rooted for her inclusion. People stereotype her as "Emo Peach", but it's not what the character is at all, and she had already established herself as a distinguished character. She was not literally Peach. Paper Mario is literally Mario, and Mario can do anything Paper Mario can.

Yeah. I mean, even with Toon Link, if you want to get nitpicky, he can't actually jump that high in Wind Waker, and the upward and downward stabs are moves from Adventure of Link.

Actually, Toon Link in Wind Waker could jump WELL over the heads of characters much taller than him, and he also performed the downward stab move against Ganondorf.

 

[?????????????]

Actually, Toon Link in Wind Waker could jump WELL over the heads of characters much taller than him,

Can he double-jump? Can he use the Spin Attack as a means to fly like a helicopter?

Or heck, not just Toon Link, what about any of these characters? Snake doing a double jump? Donkey Kong flying like a helicopter?

While we're on the topic, I can't seem to recall a moment in a Zelda game where Ganondorf decided to do a flaming purple dive kick. Or a game where Donkey Kong chose to headbutt an opponent.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

Can he double-jump? Can he use the Spin Attack as a means to fly like a helicopter?

If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

Or heck, not just Toon Link, what about any of these characters? Snake doing a double jump? Donkey Kong flying like a helicopter?

While we're on the topic, I can't seem to recall a moment in a Zelda game where Ganondorf decided to do a flaming purple dive kick. Or a game where Donkey Kong chose to headbutt an opponent.

Just realized how boring Smash would be if every character were limited to the abilities they use in games.

Peach would sit in a cage while she is being run over by Captain Falcon, all while Snake is planning to sneak in there and shoot their @$$es all the way to Hell!

A family-friendly fighting game.

 

[ChikoLad]

Can he double-jump? Can he use the Spin Attack as a means to fly like a helicopter?

While we're on the topic, I can't seem to recall a moment in a Zelda game where Ganondorf decided to do a flaming purple dive kick. Or a game where Donkey Kong chose to headbutt an opponent.

Now you are acting as if I denied gameplay-story segregation is a thing in Smash, when all I've been saying is that Toon Link is very clearly meant to be from Wind Waker. Of course they tweak the character to work in a different setting. Heck, this happens within other franchises. Like, in Sonic, Sonic doesn't run at the same speed in every game. In Lost World, he moves at a slower pace than in Generations. Does that suddenly mean it's not the same Sonic?

Ganondorf was previously shown to be a physical fighter, so the flaming purple kick doesn't feel strange (I personally think he could be much better, but I digress).
Donkey Kong never headbutted opponents, but does it seem like something he WOULDN'T do? That, is what's important here.

 

[Kenith]

Samus and Ness had never been rendered in 3D before Smash 64. That doesn't make them "Smash Bros Samus" and "Smash Bros Ness". Mega Man was also rendered in 3D in Mega Man Powered Up for the PSP, which is a remake of the original Mega Man. So no, it's just Classic Mega Man.

A version of classic Mega Man created specifically for this game.

Sonic has many incarnations, but the one referenced in Smash Bros is the most widely known one alongside Classic Sonic. However, Modern Sonic is still capable of doing everything Classic Sonic does, and they are confirmed to be the same character. So no, it's not Smash Bros Sonic. It's Modern Sonic.

Modern Sonic and Classic Sonic are fan terms describing versions of a character in Sonic Generations. The Sonic in this game is just a version of Sonic, who was designed specifically for this game.

Solid Snake is a clone of Big Boss, and could easily grow his facial hair. Also, Snake in Brawl can communicate with characters Solid Snake knows on his codec, but Big Boss doesn't. So no, it's Solid Snake.

It is Solid Snake. A version created specifially for Brawl.

Also, the character bios in the game do not list them as different incarnations of the characters. They are literally the same characters, as we know them.

Of course it doesn't. It's obvious. It's a non-canon crossover. Therefore, by it's very definition, these are not the same versions of the characters from their respective games.[/quote][/quote]

 

[Deleted member]

Just realized how boring Smash would be if every character were limited to the abilities they use in games.

Peach would sit in a cage while she is being run over by Captain Falcon, all while Snake is planning to sneak in there and shoot their @$$es all the way to Hell!

A family-friendly fighting game.

Pikachu would be using "Struggle" after wasting all the PP, Sonic would be too fast, Fox would stay in the Arwing...yep.

 

[ChikoLad]

A version of classic Mega Man created specifically for this game.



Modern Sonic and Classic Sonic are fan terms describing versions of a character in Sonic Generations. The Sonic in this game is just a version of Sonic, who was designed specifically for this game.



It is Solid Snake. A version created specifially for Brawl.



Of course it doesn't. It's obvious. It's a non-canon crossover. Therefore, by it's very definition, these are not the same versions of the characters from their respective games.

Now you are blatantly running out of proof for your point.

It's not a different version, it's a different model. It still draws from all of Mega Man's past experience.

Modern and Classic Sonic are not fan terms, they are referred to as such on the back of the bloody box. They are Sonic at two different points in his life. Modern Sonic is the one who appears in Smash. He has the exact same attitude.

It's the same one as the one from the MGS series, because he directly references his past experiences in those games.

Also, a quote from Sakurai, from the Iwata Asks of Brawl:

Of course. I asked to use Nintendo characters since it was so hard to accurately convey to the players the atmosphere of the gaming world where they play a fighting game on home console. You have to have some main characters in a fighting game, and when you line up character 1, character 2, character 3 and so on, the main characters end up blurring together. With a game for the arcade, it’s okay for character development to take a backseat since players are content with the fighting. With a fighting game for the home console, however, you have to set up the general image or the atmosphere of the gaming world right from the start or else the game suffers. That’s why I asked to use Nintendo characters.

So yes, the character portrayals and the atmosphere they bring are why Smash Bros uses Nintendo characters to begin with. Sakurai makes his decisions for the roster based on how they add to the game's atmosphere.

 

[Tepig2000]

I've always abbreviated it that way. It's hilarious.



Which is why I vouch for Ghirahim Midna. At face value, she fits all the necessary criteria.

Why did you suddenly change your favorite character to Midna?

 

[Kenith]

Now you are blatantly running out of proof for your point.

Lol. I was reinstating my point repeatedly because you're ignoring it.

Pikachu would be using "Struggle" after wasting all the PP, Sonic would be too fast, Fox would stay in the Arwing...yep.

And Captain Falcon's Final Smash would always be on, Rosalina would stay in one spot and deflect any attack, Mario and Luigi would die in two hits, and Samus would be the best character.

I'm glad these characters aren't more faithful, some would be so broken.

 

[ChikoLad]

Lol. I was reinstating my point repeatedly because you're ignoring it.



And Captain Falcon's Final Smash would always be on, Rosalina would stay in one spot and deflect any attack, Mario and Luigi would die in two hits, and Samus would be the best character.

I'm glad these characters aren't more faithful, some would be so broken.

I'm not ignoring it, it's just flat out wrong, and you're just damage controlling. Stoically repeating it does not make it any more valid, or make you look any more edgy. What you are trying to state as fact is your headcanon.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

And Captain Falcon's Final Smash would always be on, Rosalina would stay in one spot and deflect any attack, Mario and Luigi would die in two hits, and Samus would be the best character.

I'm glad these characters aren't more faithful, some would be so broken.

And Meta Knight would still be broken.

 

[?????????????]

Kirby would be the most broken character of all. After eating someone, he would gain all of their abilities. Plus he can fly indefinitely.

Or perhaps Bowser. Touching him in any normal fashion deals damage to you instead, and you have to find his weak point or some kind of opening in his attacks.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

This is honestly such a stupid argument. I'm out.

Titanfall time

 

[Kenith]

I'm not ignoring it, it's just flat out wrong, and you're just damage controlling. Stoically repeating it does not make it any more valid, or make you look any more edgy.

Then you just don't understand what I am saying. It isn't flat out wrong because you don't see it, and now you are assuming characteristics of my personality, when I never did so to you. Sigh...

Why did you suddenly change your favorite character to Midna?

Well, I dunno who I like more. I love Midna's role in Twilight Princess, but on the flip side, Ghirahim absolutely made Skyward Sword for me.

Really, I just think having Midna would be incredibly unique and would represent the Us fanbase of Zelda well.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Hey man, call me when Nintendo releases a new Mother/F-Zero game.

No new game = completely insignificant to Nintendo history

 

[?????????????]

I like Midna.

Actually...if we're just going purely by character....

I like Midna more than Tetra.

 

[ChikoLad]

Then you just don't understand what I am saying. It isn't flat out wrong because you don't see it, and now you are assuming characteristics of my personality, when I never did so to you. Sigh...



Well, I dunno who I like more. I love Midna's role in Twilight Princess, but on the flip side, Ghirahim absolutely made Skyward Sword for me.

Really, I just think having Midna would be incredibly unique and would represent the Us fanbase of Zelda well.

I understand what you are saying, but again, it's wrong. Your suggestion completely defies the point of the Smash Bros series and everything, yet you stand by saying it's the truth.

I'm not saying you can't have it as a headcanon, I am saying it is not the intent of the series.

This is honestly such a stupid argument. I'm out.

Titanfall time

Welcome to video game forums.

Also, have fun. I'm looking forward to getting that game myself.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

No new game = completely insignificant to Nintendo history

This is true.

Samus, and by extent Ridley, are both insignificant and basically never happened.

Same with Marth, and King K. Rool.
Don't even get me started on that stupid-@$$ arcade game with the big, stupid ape. So old! All it did was give Ninty a little bit-a extra cash in their pockets,

 

[Kenith]

No new game = completely insignificant to Nintendo history

I mean at the moment. Like, they have an F-Zero game they would like to promote.
Please, leave me alone on this. It was an offhand remark.

I understand what you are saying, but again, it's wrong. Your suggestion completely defies the point of the Smash Bros series and everything, yet you stand by saying it's the truth.
I'm not saying you can't have it as a headcanon, I am saying it is not the intent of the series.

I have absolutely no idea what you are saying at this point. Good night.

This is honestly such a stupid argument. I'm out.
Titanfall time

Which one? We are always arguing and people get on me for literally everything.

I like Midna.

Actually...if we're just going purely by character....

I like Midna more than Tetra.

I agree. She's better written and actually her own character.

Though the prospect of having a Princess, Ninja, and Pirate Zelda in one game is strangely appealing.

 

[?????????????]

I think we should end the current argument. It's gotten so twisted and confused from what it originally stemmed from that I can't even comprehend what the argument is even about anymore.

Are Super Smash Bros. characters characters from other video games? Yes. Do they perfectly resemble the appearance and abilities these characters use/have in their own games? No. And such is to be expected from a crossover fighting game.

If, for example, MvC3 was perfectly true to scale and power, Hulk would destroy everybody, and Phoenix Wright would be a joke.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Did anyone see the interview where Sakurai says that he likes the PS4? SONY CHARACTERS CONFIRMED!

 

[ChikoLad]

I have absolutely no idea what you are saying at this point. Good night.

Nice damage controlling. Again.

Did anyone see the interview where Sakurai says that he likes the PS4? SONY CHARACTERS CONFIRMED!

I think I actually recall mentioning that.

I think we should end the current argument. It's gotten so twisted and confused from what it originally stemmed from that I can't even comprehend what the argument is even about anymore.

Are Super Smash Bros. characters characters from other video games? Yes. Do they perfectly resemble the appearance and abilities these characters use/have in their own games? No. And such is to be expected from a crossover fighting game.

If, for example, MvC3 was perfectly true to scale and power, Hulk would destroy everybody, and Phoenix Wright would be a joke.

People were discussing what might be the deciding factor for a character getting on the roster. I clarified that it had to do with atmosphere and character appeal. Some people disagreed, but that doesn't change the fact that Sakurai himself claims this.

Meanwhile, someone else was trying to push the idea of these characters not being the same character as they normally are as fact. When it isn't. This stemmed from Toon Link, somehow.

C'mon, step it up!

 

[Deleted member]

Did anyone see the interview where Sakurai says that he likes the PS4? SONY CHARACTERS CONFIRMED!

Can't wait to see Raiden in his Revengence appearance jam packed with "Rules of Nature" on loop!