Character Discussion Thread

[ChikoLad]

During or after Melee, Sakurai stated that he traded in DeDeDe (who would be a completely original character) for the six clones we got. Besides Mewtwo, there were (surprise) six clones waiting to be discovered in Brawl's files. Sonic was added as an extremely late-term addition, and, (again, surprise!) character's don't just make themselves. Sonic had to be programmed in with all of his animations, attacks, graphics, his stage, music, voice acting from Griffith, all at the last second. The majority of Brawl's production had already gone to the Subspace Emissary, so guess what happened when Sonic came marching in? The least important characters in the roster got canned.

Also, fun-fact, modders didn't "easily" implement Mewtwo. It took over 700 hours of work to make the Project M Mewtwo look and feel right. It would obviously take less time for Sakurai and his team, but it's still not something that's just done willy-nilly. If anything, you can look at Sonic's inclusion for evidence.

I don't have a source because Sakurai isn't going to come out and say "Yeah, Sonic ****ed a lot of stuff over for Brawl, but ooooooh weelllll". The pieces are all there, you just have to put them together. It's not hard to see.



I don't think you know what biased means. I've never once said "SAWNIK IS DUMB HE SHOULDN'T HAVE GAWT IN" or anything remotely close to it. I'm saying that Sonic's inclusion (the way it was handled, rather) is a baaaaaaad thing and it shouldn't happen again, ever, because it caused a LOT of characters to be cut from the roster, one of which is rather sorely missed, so much so that he's the single most requested character for the next Smash.

If anything, I should be calling you biased. You said it yourself in bold. My quarrel isn't with Sonic, his character, or whatever else the ****. It's with the problems it caused. The fact that I'm upset with the way Sonic sucked in Brawl should show that I'm not biased against him. I hate that so many people (my fiance included) wanted a character and he was trash. If he would've been in earlier, there probably would've been more (remixed) songs, a better stage, more Subspace involvement, and most importantly, likely better balancing.



So it made a lot of money? For a company that has next to nothing to do with Nintendo? We're comparing Rayman and Sonic, not Rayman and Snake.

I'm not exactly a source of social video game knowledge or anything close to it, but scarcely do I meet hardcore Rayman fans or anyone who genuinely enjoys the character himself. The only Rayman fans I've met are the ones whose experiences originated in Origins and Legends, and I knew next to nothing about Rayman before that point besides the fact that there were games out at some point and I never heard anything about them.

Either way, though (and if I'm wrong, then so be it, woe is me and such, I know little about the no-limbed dog-thing), Rayman is nowhere near the level of Sonic's popularity, which is the only reason the previous exception (one that had a negative impact on the end result) was made. So, for the whooooooooooole reason this debate started, last minute characters are terrible ideas in general, and you're better off saving them for the next game.

God knows Sonic appearing for the first time in Smash on the WiiU would move some consoles.

So losing six CLONES is not considered a good trade-off for getting arguably the most wanted character in Smash history? Keeping in mind that Sonic probably had nothing to do with them being scrapped, as Sakurai said that from Brawl, he wanted to cut down on clone characters anyway. I'm merely presenting this question hypothetically, as I know Sonic had nothing to do with other characters being cut.

And you are saying this like Sonic probably took months of dev time, but that's not true at all. Brawl was made by professionals, had a much bigger dev team than Melee, and a lot of Sonic's animations involve him spinning in a distorted ball. I could probably animate something similar to Sonic's ball animations with little time, and I'm a first year college student in game's design. Not to mention that his up-tilt animation is very like Captain Falcon's up smash animation. Sonic probably saw less dev time than a lot of the cast. Snake probably saw way more, since he was in it from the start of the game, and he had a codec conversation for EVERY CHARACTER IN THE GAME, which also required additional members of the MGS voice cast.

And I didn't say modders implemented Mewtwo easily, I meant that if modders could do it PERIOD, Sakurai and his team probably could have done it in their sleep, as he is a veteran, and the official dev team have a lot more resources and freedom compared to modders of an existing game's code.
Also, 700 hours isn't even a month in total. Implementing Mewtwo into PM took less than a month. That's actually really impressive for a modding team, and further emphasises my point that time constraints were not the issue with Mewtwo being cut, and that it had nothing to do with Sonic. Mewtwo's cut was probably due to Game Freak being extremely picky about Pokémon representation in Smash. They probably didn't want Mewtwo overshadowing Lucario (who also barely made it in, as he was a complex character to implement).

Also:

shoddy-at-BEST Sonic representation, and the character himself was awful.

That is proof of your bias. The Sonic representation is great. Sonic music doesn't need remixing, it's good enough as it is, and the likes of the lyrical songs being remixed is VERY controversial and would have required they chase after a bunch of composers, including some from the US, so it was best to just include the originals. And they included a lot of great Sonic tunes, and didn't just stick with "Green Hill Zone and Sonic Heroes" and called it a day, they actually dug into more obscure ones, like Sonic Advance music, Sonic CD music, Sonic Rush music and Sonic R music. Even the Mario & Sonic games barely remix Sonic tunes, yet Sega Sound Team do a remix for pretty much EVERY Mario song they choose. There are a ton of Sonic trophies, which again, didn't just stick with "Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and Eggman" and call it a day, they had a bunch of characters that are less iconic but still have a following. Green Hill Zone was the only stage that was going to be chosen for Brawl, as it's so iconic (to the point where it's a trope namer on TV Tropes). The Brawl version of Green Hill Zone actually was a nice homage to the Sonic Adventure 2 version too, as it went for the same kind of style as that. And while it would have been cool if Sonic was part of Mario's party in Subspace, the role they chose for him in the end was still pretty good, even if brief, as it's basically "SONIC SAVES NINTENDO".

As for how Sonic plays, it's far from terrible. He is around the middle of the tier list (which means most people agree he is at least average), his Final Smash is objectively the best in the game, and he's a well rounded character, not to mention that he's literally the only character who can make practical use of wave-dashing in Brawl. Literally the only buffs I want for him in the next Smash are his knockback on one or two moves, and the speed of some of his attacks (and by the looks of his trailer, he's received these buffs, plus an EVEN better combo game. And the overall faster pace will benefit him). Otherwise, his momentum-based, combo-based, and mind game based play style is incredibly fun, he just has a bit of an entry barrier, as he is one of the more "difficult to master" characters in the game.

As for Rayman, I don't see why you keep arguing over that. I just posted the news here because I thought it was cool that the creator of Rayman wants him in Smash and that I'd post it here in case anyone would like to organise a petition, as was suggested by Michel Ancel himself. His comment said "I would really like to see him in Smash", not " I would really like to see him in Smash 4". I am well aware that Rayman probably would not make it into this game, as IIRC, this game's roster is already final. I then said I am more rooting for Layton and Reggie than I am for Rayman, in regards to this particular Smash installment.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

So losing six CLONES is not considered a good trade-off for getting arguably the most wanted character in Smash history? Keeping in mind that Sonic probably had nothing to do with them being scrapped, as Sakurai said that from Brawl, he wanted to cut down on clone characters anyway. I'm merely presenting this question hypothetically, as I know Sonic had nothing to do with other characters being cut.

And you are saying this like Sonic probably took months of dev time, but that's not true at all. Brawl was made by professionals, had a much bigger dev team than Melee, and a lot of Sonic's animations involve him spinning in a distorted ball. I could probably animate something similar to Sonic's ball animations with little time, and I'm a first year college student in game's design. Not to mention that his up-tilt animation is very like Captain Falcon's up smash animation. Sonic probably saw less dev time than a lot of the cast. Snake probably saw way more, since he was in it from the start of the game, and he had a codec conversation for EVERY CHARACTER IN THE GAME, which also required additional members of the MGS voice cast.

And I didn't say modders implemented Mewtwo easily, I meant that if modders could do it PERIOD, Sakurai and his team probably could have done it in their sleep, as he is a veteran, and the official dev team have a lot more resources and freedom compared to modders of an existing game's code.
Also, 700 hours isn't even a month in total. Implementing Mewtwo into PM took less than a month. That's actually really impressive for a modding team, and further emphasises my point that time constraints were not the issue with Mewtwo being cut, and that it had nothing to do with Sonic. Mewtwo's cut was probably due to Game Freak being extremely picky about Pokémon representation in Smash. They probably didn't want Mewtwo overshadowing Lucario (who also barely made it in, as he was a complex character to implement).

Also:



That is proof of your bias. The Sonic representation is great. Sonic music doesn't need remixing, it's good enough as it is, and the likes of the lyrical songs being remixed is VERY controversial and would have required they chase after a bunch of composers, including some from the US, so it was best to just include the originals. And they included a lot of great Sonic tunes, and didn't just stick with "Green Hill Zone and Sonic Heroes" and called it a day, they actually dug into more obscure ones, like Sonic Advance music, Sonic CD music, Sonic Rush music and Sonic R music. Even the Mario & Sonic games barely remix Sonic tunes, yet Sega Sound Team do a remix for pretty much EVERY Mario song they choose. There are a ton of Sonic trophies, which again, didn't just stick with "Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and Eggman" and call it a day, they had a bunch of characters that are less iconic but still have a following. Green Hill Zone was the only stage that was going to be chosen for Brawl, as it's so iconic (to the point where it's a trope namer on TV Tropes). The Brawl version of Green Hill Zone actually was a nice homage to the Sonic Adventure 2 version too, as it went for the same kind of style as that. And while it would have been cool if Sonic was part of Mario's party in Subspace, the role they chose for him in the end was still pretty good, even if brief, as it's basically "SONIC SAVES NINTENDO".

As for how Sonic plays, it's far from terrible. He is around the middle of the tier list (which means most people agree he is at least average), his Final Smash is objectively the best in the game, and he's a well rounded character, not to mention that he's literally the only character who can make practical use of wave-dashing in Brawl. Literally the only buffs I want for him in the next Smash are his knockback on one or two moves, and the speed of some of his attacks (and by the looks of his trailer, he's received these buffs, plus an EVEN better combo game. And the overall faster pace will benefit him). Otherwise, his momentum-based, combo-based, and mind game based play style is incredibly fun, he just has a bit of an entry barrier, as he is one of the more "difficult to master" characters in the game.

Agreed, this is exactly why Sonic will never leave Super Smash Bros.

 

[Opossum]

Made a new one in light of recent events.

 

[BluePikmin11]

You need to jump over the shark and at least add Pac-Man.

 

[ChikoLad]

Made a new one in light of recent events.

May I ask where you found some of those images? The images used for characters that have not yet been confirmed blend in well with the rest of the cast (Pokémon Trainer, Snake, Wolf, Ice Climbers, etc). I'd like to take a look at the full ones, as they look cool.

 

[Opossum]

May I ask where you found some of those images? The images used for characters that have not yet been confirmed blend in well with the rest of the cast (Pokémon Trainer, Snake, Wolf, Ice Climbers, etc). I'd like to take a look at the full ones, as they look cool.

Many of them are icons made by users here, such as Ariand/AEM. In particular, I know he did the Ice Climbers, Wolf, and the Pokemon Trainer from the list you mentioned. As for Snake, I found that icon somewhere in the Roster Maker thread. I'm not sure who originally made it, but I definitely can't take credit for it, haha.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

Made a new one in light of recent events.

What about Krystal and Toon Zelda?

 

[FlareHabanero]

You need to jump over the shark and at least add Pac-Man.

You mean jump the ghost.

 

[Opossum]

What about Krystal and Toon Zelda?

What about them?

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

What about them?

Well, considering that you had two empty spaces, I was thinking maybe you'd fill em up, and I thought maybe they'd be good choices.

 

[Opossum]

Well, considering that you had two empty spaces, I was thinking maybe you'd fill em up, and I thought maybe they'd be good choices.

I don't justify characters by saying they'd "fill empty spaces" on the roster. Instead, I decide the roster look by how many characters I think we'll get. If I were to add those two, I feel that'd be too many characters. My roster having 51 is already pushing it, but then Miis happened...so I had to tack on a spot for them.

 

[SuperBrawler]

Made a new one in light of recent events.

I like it, but maybe you should throw in some more out there choices.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

I don't justify characters by saying they'd "fill empty spaces" on the roster. Instead, I decide the roster look by how many characters I think we'll get. If I were to add those two, I feel that'd be too many characters. My roster having 51 is already pushing it, but then Miis happened...so I had to tack on a spot for them.

Ah, now I get it. Plus there's the Random character selection tile that everybody likes.

 

[Opossum]

I like it, but maybe you should throw in some more out there choices.

Putting in "out there" choices wouldn't exactly be fit for a Prediction roster, now would it?

 

[BluePikmin11]

Then you're going to lose in your prediction roster if you don't take off the cliff with plausible but "unlikely" unique choices.

 

[Opossum]

Then you're going to lose in your prediction roster if you don't take off the cliff with plausible but "unlikely" unique choices.

Taking that risk when they likely won't be there and not putting them on to begin with are pretty much on par with each other. If they're not on there and are added: Oh well, let's put them on. If I put them on and they're not on it? Then that just leads to disappointment and realization that the idea wasn't likely.

Plus, the only ones that I'd even consider adding that are "out there" are pretty much just Chibi-Robo and Waddle Dee, since I think they at least have merit.


Not to mention the Wii Fit Trainer's our surprise character, anyway...

 

[MasterOfKnees]

I would honestly be so relieved is Snake was revealed next week. I would feel so much better.

Maybe because it would be tough to advertise him in a Direct? Because he has no games coming out and really isn't going to get too much coverage.

But maybe he'll get a trailer on the site... Here's hoping.

Snake probably won't be revealed next week intentionally, they sure wouldn't want to advertise Ground Zeroes. Snake is probably being held off for much later in order to avoid timing him with the current MGS hype. I'm sure Sakurai doesn't care, but Iwata and co. probably does.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Taking that risk when they likely won't be there and not putting them on to begin with are pretty much on par with each other. If they're not on there and are added: Oh well, let's put them on. If I put them on and they're not on it? Then that just leads to disappointment and realization that the idea wasn't likely.

Plus, the only ones that I'd even consider adding that are "out there" are pretty much just Chibi-Robo and Waddle Dee, since I think they at least have merit.


Not to mention the Wii Fit Trainer's our surprise character, anyway...

Doesn't mean there won't be potentially more surprises in the corner, that's only a popular assumption that I disagree with.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Snake probably won't be revealed next week intentionally, they sure wouldn't want to advertise Ground Zeroes. Snake is probably being held off for much later in order to avoid timing him with the current MGS hype. I'm sure Sakurai doesn't care, but Iwata and co. probably does.

If executives really did care, we would of never gotten half of the roster to begin with.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

If executives really did care, we would of never gotten half of the roster to begin with.

I'm not sure what you mean with this since the current roster has mainly been revealed in order to advertise for products on Nintendo consoles.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I'm not sure what you mean with this since the current roster has mainly been revealed in order to advertise for products on Nintendo consoles.

I mean executives would of shot down characters and force the developers to drop characters in order to stay current and appeal to the current crowd.

Because, you know, business horse****.

 

[ChikoLad]

Snake probably won't be revealed next week intentionally, they sure wouldn't want to advertise Ground Zeroes. Snake is probably being held off for much later in order to avoid timing him with the current MGS hype. I'm sure Sakurai doesn't care, but Iwata and co. probably does.

A lot of MGS related stuff in Brawl was based off of MGS4. The Japanese and American release of Brawl pre-date MGS4. If they didn't have a problem then, they won't now. Most gamers who play MGS would own multiple systems anyway, as the franchise is spread out across different platforms.

 

[Gune]

Doesn't mean there won't be potentially more surprises in the corner, that's only a popular assumption that I disagree with.

Surprises? As in charecter inclusions? I think sakurai has more focus on requested fighters not surprise ones that people are going to BF over.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

I mean executives would of shot down characters and force the developers to drop characters in order to stay current and appeal to the current crowd.

Because, you know, business horse****.

Obviously there's a line. Executives don't have enough of a say in things to force Sakurai to switch out Meta Knight for Prince Fluff or make him include Lord Fredrik from Tropical Freeze, but they obviously do care about advertising with the characters they can on specific dates. I doubt Sakurai figured himself that he'd announce characters to coincide with game releases, there's no benefit for him in doing so.

A lot of MGS related stuff in Brawl was based off of MGS4. The Japanese and American release of Brawl pre-date MGS4. If they didn't have a problem then, they won't now. Most gamers who play MGS would own multiple systems anyway, as the franchise is spread out across different platforms.

I know, but there's a bit of a difference in doing so before release and doing it on the day of release. I don't think Nintendo executives affect what content is in the game, but they'll probably give Sakurai a concerned look if he handed them a Snake trailer for a Nintendo Direct next week.

 

[Louie G.]

Am I the only one who thinks most of the "unlikely" choices are confirmed?
More than 3 or 4 is overkill in my opinion.

 

[?????????????]

Made a new one in light of recent events.

The difference between your roster and mine is the lack of Tetra and Shulk.

Soooo.........yeah, looks good! No complaints!

 

[FlareHabanero]

Am I the only one who thinks most of the "unlikely" choices are confirmed?
More than 3 or 4 is overkill in my opinion.

Every character people want will not be in this game shut up what is wrong with you go home you're drunk.

 

[Louie G.]

The difference between your roster and mine is the lack of Tetra and Shulk.

Soooo.........yeah, looks good! No complaints!

Personally I would bump the roster up to 50 slots if I were @ Opossum .
I think that Sakurai has the time at this point to finalize the roster and add a few last minute characters.
That being said Shulk would be higher priority and Tetra I don't think will happen. That's just me though.

@ ChikoLad
I know that there is bias against Sonic on the boards but you may have some slight bias yourself.
Sonic is pretty bland in Brawl, even if his playstyle takes a lot of skill to master. Generic spin moves isn't anything exciting no matter how you look at it.
Furthermore I ADORE Sonic music, but remixes wouldn't hurt.
Saying that 20 year old pieces are perfect the way they are is false. They sound very dated compared to the fresh remixed tracks in Brawl.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Surprises? As in charecter inclusions? I think sakurai has more focus on requested fighters not surprise ones that people are going to BF over.

Yes, requested characters from popular to unpopular (but loved) choices.

 

[ChikoLad]

Actually, I would argue doing it before release is more promoting than on release. Because doing it before release gives people time to research the game and save up for the console and buy it before the game.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I'm very sorry, but I still don't think Sakurai's ready for a third non Nintendo character just yet. If he is, I'd much rather see a second sonic character or PacMan, no offense

So he can't be ready for Snake, a character who he already added, but he can be for a character who probably won't happen and one who isn't highly requested?

If Snake gets removed, I'll bet there will be a large amount of people requesting Snake. Simply because he is a veteran.

I don't think he'll actually be cut if I'm being honest. I'm just worried.

 

[Louie G.]

I'm kinda worried about Snake too, and I have been.
But he's a lot more unique and interesting than Pac-Man, and I don't even mind Pac.
He doesn't necessarily deserve to be there in my opinion, but since we've got him it would be a shame to lose him.

 

[?????????????]

If someone asked me to make a wager right here and now on whether or not Snake would return, I would say that Snake would return. At the very least, no new third party character is going to get in over Snake (besides potentially Mega Man). Those are my thoughts.

 

[Starcutter]

What is it we call "likely"?

What is it we call "unlikely"?

As a community we could be terribly wrong.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Pac-Man is much more interesting than Mario IMO.

What is it we call "likely"?

What is it we call "unlikely"?

As a community we could be terribly wrong.

The assumptions are terribly wrong.

 

[Louie G.]

What is it we call "likely"?

What is it we call "unlikely"?

As a community we could be terribly wrong.

I think truly likely characters are the ones who we can support with tons of evidence, some even brought up by the creator himself, like Mewtwo or Palutena.
Unlikely characters are never truly unlikely I suppose.
@ BluePikmin11
You can never use Mario as an example.
Mario isn't supposed to be interesting. He is a pick up and play character that anyone can use.
Comparing him to any character is stupid since there is no way he would be replaced to begin with.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Honestly, I think people are looking too much into it. Myself included.

First, Sakurai has said he doesn't want to cut anybody, so he's doing what he can to bring everybody back.

Second, 3rd parties are contracts, so if Snake is planned to be in, he's in no problem.

Third, Kojima is known to troll. He still wants Snake in, and he said something very similar to what SEGA did in regards to Sonic.

Four, Snake is a very popular character, who is among the most unique and legendary among the gaming industry.

As far as I'm concerned, the only way I can see him cut is if the bigwigs made a big deal about it and forced Sakurai to cut him, but i'm not buying that either.

 

[Louie G.]

I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo turned Snake down, to be honest.
I don't think it will happen but I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Honestly, I think people are looking too much into it. Myself included.

First, Sakurai has said he doesn't want to cut anybody, so he's doing what he can to bring everybody back.

Second, 3rd parties are contracts, so if Snake is planned to be in, he's in no problem.

Third, Kojima is known to troll. He still wants Snake in, and he said something very similar to what SEGA did in regards to Sonic.

Four, Snake is a very popular character, who is among the most unique and legendary among the gaming industry.

As far as I'm concerned, the only way I can see him cut is if the bigwigs made a big deal about it and forced Sakurai to cut him, but i'm not buying that either.

If the bigwigs cared that much, they'd have stopped Snake's inclusion in Brawl to begin with. They'd probably have stopped his inclusion early on in Smash 4's production too, which would mean that Sakurai couldn't have said that nobody was cut in the summer of 2013.

I have no doubt that Snake is in personally.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

If Smash Bros was one huge advertisement by executives, we would be legitimately only arguing the past five years for the most part.

On the opposing hand, characters would have a better chance for "Hey, we're able to start up a franchise out of this"