Character Discussion Thread

[WeirdChillFever]

People like the fact she's a cool ninja.

 

[Diddy Kong]

People like the fact she's a cool ninja.

Which came from Melee more than Ocarina of Time.

 

[Rockaphin]

I think Sheik's popularity mostly comes for her two-time Top Tier status in both Melee, and now this game. Couple that with the fact she instantly reminds people of Ocarina of Time and I think I kinda know where her popularity comes from. Not that I agree with the overall notion mind you.

I won't be crying for her removal, but Sakurai plz nerf this eyesore for me please. The fact that Diddy got so hit with nerfs, but Sheik -out of all characters- remains untouched is just something I want justice for. I always enjoyed beating a good Sheik more with Diddy because of my previous hatred for the character, but now it's not even anymore on high level of play. And that disturbs me more than anything.

I really don't understand why this character keeps on being an eyesore to me. My guess is it's either fate, or karma.

Yeah I really don't like Sheik either. I haven't finished OoT though, so maybe she's cool in that game but I can't stand her in Smash. I thought she was male in Melee lol.

Does anyone else have those characters that you like in their games, but don't really like them in Smash? I can think of a few for me:

 

[Arcadenik]

Well, I'll certainly follow him in support for Toad and Meowth. Maybe even Tingle. I'm not quite ready to support the Wandering Heroes from Miiplaza just yet though.

Oh good. Glad to know people are aware of the Wandering Heroes from StreetPass Mii Plaza, at least.

I really like the Mii Fighters but they are human Miis... and I would love to have animal Miis (cats, dogs, bunnies) and they could double as magical Mii Fighters. I also love the idea of customizable fighters... and with 12 shirt colors, they get 144 special moves (12 special moves per color) even though they all have the same normal moves regardless of shirt colors.

The special moves are all based on shirt magic from Find Mii, shirt weapons from Mii Force, weapons from Monster Manor and Battleground Z, and other stuff from the other games. There are 8 games in StreetPass Mii Plaza now and I sure hope Nintendo comes up with more games in the future.

 

[Frostwraith]

I don't like cuts.

I understand them when it's due to tech issues or lack of development time, though. I truly appreciate that Mewtwo, Roy and Lucas returned as DLC.

The only sort of replacement I can tolerate is something like Young Link to Toon Link, as they're just different incarnations of the same character concept and the differences between both are in the same realm as what happened with Luigi, Falco, Ganondorf and Roy through the series.

Much like how Link, Zelda and Ganondorf were changed to the Twilight Princess designs, so did Young Link to his Wind Waker design, albeit with a name and portrayal change in accordance to such, to remain canonically correct: while Young Link is portrayed as being the same playable Link but young, Toon Link is explicitly a different entity/incarnation.

Toon Link is a spiritual successor to Young Link and there's significant overlap between both in regards to game play styles and role in the roster as the younger version of Link that trades power for speed.

This can't really be applied to Sheik and Impa, who are clearly different characters and even have their own set of abilities, especially after Impa's fleshing out in Skyward Sword and Hyrule Warriors.

Impa could be as agile as Sheik, but using some of her magical abilities shown in Skyward Sword or even have dark magic (like Ganondorf and Robin) as a nod to her Sage of Shadow role in Ocarina of Time. If we count her non-canon Hyrule Warriors appearance, she has a lot more to draw from and set herself apart from Sheik.

Possible roles for Impa would be:
1. Magic ninja - agile and can use some magic powers, though I think this role may overlap with Greninja
2. Naginata wielder - the most unique of the possible choices as there's no character in Smash with a pole weapon, balanced power and speed with long ranged melee attacks
3. Big sword wielder - could be a more extreme version of Ike, given the size of her sword, with bigger range, more power, but less maneuverability and speed

Instead of seeing Impa as a Sheik substitute, why not think of Impa as a character that can bring something no other character brings to the roster? Not only Impa becomes viable candidate for playable role, she becomes someone who sets herself apart from the other characters.

This is how you can convince others to support a character.

 

[Wintropy]

I'd wager quite a few people in this thread have never heard of the term "alter-ego".

 

[Aetheri]

Impa won't replace Sheik...It's almost in the same realm of people supporting Black Shadow to have Ganondorf's current moveset while Ganondorf gets an updated one...It alienates the players that grew attached to that character originally...and it's in a way morally wrong...Toon Link is still Link, hence why it makes sense for him to replace Young Link, thus it isn't as drastic sinjce he still fills the same niche while still being 'technically' the same character...

Impa has the tools to be her own character while leaving Sheik as is...While she may be as simple as a semi-clone to Sheik she can still be implemented as a completely unique character even without her taking from Hyrule Warriors which Sakurai may not be willing to do...If he does then she's got that much more to work with...

 

[ToddCam]

I don't like cuts.

I understand them when it's due to tech issues or lack of development time, though. I truly appreciate that Mewtwo, Roy and Lucas returned as DLC.

The only sort of replacement I can tolerate is something like Young Link to Toon Link, as they're just different incarnations of the same character concept and the differences between both are in the same realm as what happened with Luigi, Falco, Ganondorf and Roy through the series.

Much like how Link, Zelda and Ganondorf were changed to the Twilight Princess designs, so did Young Link to his Wind Waker design, albeit with a name and portrayal change in accordance to such, to remain canonically correct: while Young Link is portrayed as being the same playable Link but young, Toon Link is explicitly a different entity/incarnation.

Toon Link is a spiritual successor to Young Link and there's significant overlap between both in regards to game play styles and role in the roster as the younger version of Link that trades power for speed.

This can't really be applied to Sheik and Impa, who are clearly different characters and even have their own set of abilities, especially after Impa's fleshing out in Skyward Sword and Hyrule Warriors.

Impa could be as agile as Sheik, but using some of her magical abilities shown in Skyward Sword or even have dark magic (like Ganondorf and Robin) as a nod to her Sage of Shadow role in Ocarina of Time. If we count her non-canon Hyrule Warriors appearance, she has a lot more to draw from and set herself apart from Sheik.

Possible roles for Impa would be:
1. Magic ninja - agile and can use some magic powers, though I think this role may overlap with Greninja
2. Naginata wielder - the most unique of the possible choices as there's no character in Smash with a pole weapon, balanced power and speed with long ranged melee attacks
3. Big sword wielder - could be a more extreme version of Ike, given the size of her sword, with bigger range, more power, but less maneuverability and speed

Instead of seeing Impa as a Sheik substitute, why not think of Impa as a character that can bring something no other character brings to the roster? Not only Impa becomes viable candidate for playable role, she becomes someone who sets herself apart from the other characters.

This is how you can convince others to support a character.

My position, without the details for Impa's potential, are mostly aligned with yours. I don't like cuts either, but if you are going to cut someone, I prefer alternate identities to characters that remain on the roster. My question is more a hypothetical. I don't want Sheik cut.

 

[YoshiandToad]

I'd wager quite a few people in this thread have never heard of the term "alter-ego".

I'll take that bet.

Spoiler

Money please.

 

[Champ Gold]

I don't like cuts.

I understand them when it's due to tech issues or lack of development time, though. I truly appreciate that Mewtwo, Roy and Lucas returned as DLC.

The only sort of replacement I can tolerate is something like Young Link to Toon Link, as they're just different incarnations of the same character concept and the differences between both are in the same realm as what happened with Luigi, Falco, Ganondorf and Roy through the series.

Much like how Link, Zelda and Ganondorf were changed to the Twilight Princess designs, so did Young Link to his Wind Waker design, albeit with a name and portrayal change in accordance to such, to remain canonically correct: while Young Link is portrayed as being the same playable Link but young, Toon Link is explicitly a different entity/incarnation.

Toon Link is a spiritual successor to Young Link and there's significant overlap between both in regards to game play styles and role in the roster as the younger version of Link that trades power for speed.

This can't really be applied to Sheik and Impa, who are clearly different characters and even have their own set of abilities, especially after Impa's fleshing out in Skyward Sword and Hyrule Warriors.

Impa could be as agile as Sheik, but using some of her magical abilities shown in Skyward Sword or even have dark magic (like Ganondorf and Robin) as a nod to her Sage of Shadow role in Ocarina of Time. If we count her non-canon Hyrule Warriors appearance, she has a lot more to draw from and set herself apart from Sheik.

Possible roles for Impa would be:
1. Magic ninja - agile and can use some magic powers, though I think this role may overlap with Greninja
2. Naginata wielder - the most unique of the possible choices as there's no character in Smash with a pole weapon, balanced power and speed with long ranged melee attacks
3. Big sword wielder - could be a more extreme version of Ike, given the size of her sword, with bigger range, more power, but less maneuverability and speed

Instead of seeing Impa as a Sheik substitute, why not think of Impa as a character that can bring something no other character brings to the roster? Not only Impa becomes viable candidate for playable role, she becomes someone who sets herself apart from the other characters.

This is how you can convince others to support a character.

The only excuse fome cuts is the ICs situation or characters just being a one time inclusion and being exclusive to that said game (Pichu and YLink in Melee and Squirtle/Ivysaur in Brawl).

Outside of those, cuts are bad and would hurt fans. Sheik is grandfathered in like Falco, Jigglypuff and somewhat Ganondorf in a sense that they won't be let go and will be featured back in every game

 

[Wintropy]

I'll take that bet.

Spoiler

Money please.

Consider my like your payment.

:3

 

[FalKoopa]

I'd wager quite a few people in this thread have never heard of the term "alter-ego".

Is it something that affects how egotistical you are?

Anyway, I think veteran clause and general popularity are enough reason not cut Sheik. You risk upsetting a lot of people, and even if you keep the moveset, Shiek as a character herself has garnered a fanbase of her own in all these years. Now that Hyrule Warriors has differentiated Impa and Shiek more, there's no reason they can't coexist.

 

[Wintropy]

I'd accept Impa as an alt for Sheik.

Definitely not a replacement.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

Impa would be a great choice for a Zelda newcomer. Now that Shiek and Zelda can't transform into one another and, by consequence, you can finally make the argument that the two are completely different Zeldas from different time periods, there isn't a need to make Impa a replacement or alternate costume for Sheik. She'd be just as cool by herself.

She and Ganon are the two most likely Zelda newcomers if the next game ever decides to look for one. I guess Tingle too, but he'll have some problems if only Japan really likes him and everyone else generally dislikes him.

 

[ToddCam]

Is it something that affects how egotistical you are?

Anyway, I think veteran clause and general popularity are enough reason not cut Sheik. You risk upsetting a lot of people, and even if you keep the moveset, Shiek as a character herself has garnered a fanbase of her own in all these years. Now that Hyrule Warriors has differentiated Impa and Shiek more, there's no reason they can't coexist.

But Sheik is not a character. She is Zelda in a costume. Sheik is no more a separate character than Raccoon Mario is to Mario. Either she is a moveset you like, or you are a fan of Zelda herself.

Edit: rdg, what defines a one time inclusion? Does that mean you approve all cuts between individual installments in the franchise? If so, why are Snake and Wolf not on your list?

 

[DustyPumpkin]

I'm in doubt, but I was really hoping to see an 8-Bit Villager, not freakin' Isabelle. Geez, I'd like to see Tom Nook over her. Anyway, this game just looks better and better. I remember having a lot of fun with good ol' Mario Paint.

Speaking of, I think Mario Paint would make for an awesome level...

There's maybe more than 80 costumes and you're complaining about Isabelle being there and Villager and Tom Nook not
But you don't know they're not there, you're complaining for nothing.

 

[Wintropy]

But Sheik is not a character. She is Zelda in a costume. Sheik is no more a separate character than Raccoon Mario is to Mario. Either she is a moveset you like, or you are a fan of Zelda herself.

Alter-ego.

Separate identity.

They have existed independent of each-other in spinoff titles.

Why are we arguing technical semantics?

 

[FalKoopa]

But Sheik is not a character. She is Zelda in a costume. Sheik is no more a separate character than Raccoon Mario is to Mario. Either she is a moveset you like, or you are a fan of Zelda herself.

Is it impossible to say "I like Zelda as a ninja"?

 

[ToddCam]

Alter-ego.

Separate identity.

They have existed independent of each-other in spinoff titles.

Why are we arguing technical semantics?

I know what an alter-ego is. What spin-off titles? SSB4 and...? I know Sheik is in Hyrule Warriors, but is she depicted as being some kind of dissociative identity for her? Or even a separate person?

My entire question is one of semantics. Why do you care about Sheik as opposed to Zelda or her moveset?

 

[Arcadenik]

I wish would come back. I liked them in Brawl.

 

[Wintropy]

I know what an alter-ego is. What spin-off titles? SSB4 and...? I know Sheik is in Hyrule Warriors, but is she depicted as being some kind of dissociative identity for her? Or even a separate person?

My entire question is one of semantics. Why do you care about Sheik as opposed to Zelda or her moveset?

Because saying "she's just a costume" is an implicit jab at the integrity of Sheik as a character and carries with it the suggestion that Sheik fans are just obsessing over - to borrow a phrase from my brother regarding female Robin - a "glorified alt"?

 

[ToddCam]

Is it impossible to say "I like Zelda as a ninja"?

Of course not. You said Sheik is a character. I maintain she is not a separate character. Maybe I just define character as something different than you do. Zelda as a ninja is no more a character than Mario covered with liquid metal is. All of Sheik's abilities are Zelda's. All of her thoughts (within a fictional context, of course; I know she is not real) are Zelda's.

Edit:

Because saying "she's just a costume" is an implicit jab at the integrity of Sheik as a character and carries with it the suggestion that Sheik fans are just obsessing over - to borrow a phrase from my brother regarding female Robin - a "glorified alt"?

Well, I'm sorry it offends you, but while I am not particularly trying to offend Sheik or her fans, I am saying she has no integrity as a character. She is a glorified alt. A very unique one, but an alt nonetheless. In Ocarina of Time, Zelda dressed up as a Sheikah. Sakurai turned that into a creative and interesting aspect of her incarnation in Smash Bros. It does not change the fundamental truth that Sheik is an aspect of Zelda, not a wholly unique individual character.

 

[FalKoopa]

Of course not. You said Sheik is a character. I maintain she is not a separate character. Maybe I just define character as something different than you do. Zelda as a ninja is no more a character than Mario covered with liquid metal. All of Sheik's abilities are Zelda's. All of her thoughts (within a fictional context, of course; I know she is not real) are Zelda's.

I'm not really here to argue semantics.

Now that Smash has separeated slots for them, they can be considered separate though. Also partly because TP Zelda (who is in Smash) cannot turn into Sheik.

 

[ToddCam]

I'm not really here to argue semantics.

Now that Smash has separeated slots for them, they can be considered separate though. Also partly because TP Zelda (who is in Smash) cannot turn into Sheik.

Hm! Good point...

 

[Aetheri]

Here's a question then...
So when someone says they main Sheik does that mean they actually main Zelda?...When speaking in the context of Smash they are separate characters...though they are two identities of the same person they still hold their own merits as different individuals...especially when comparing their playstyle...
Same can be said about Samus and ZSS, in the context of Smash they are different characters...even though technically they are the same person...

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

People like the fact she's a cool ninja.

Or the fact that she was always superior to her princess counterpart in Smash since Melee. Even with all the buffs Zelda had this time around, she will forever be bottom (or second to last position) tier for the rest of her miserable life.

 

[ToddCam]

Here's a question then...
So when someone says they main Sheik does that mean they actually main Zelda?...When speaking in the context of Smash they are separate characters...though they are two identities of the same person they still hold their own merits as different individuals...especially when comparing their playstyle...
Same can be said about Samus and ZSS, in the context of Smash they are different characters...even though technically they are the same person...

This goes back to the original question. Sheik in Smash. Is she a character? In so far that she is a separately playable unit (in this installment), yes. But Smash is not exactly about a bunch of people caught up in an adventure. That was the case in the Subspace Emissary in Brawl, and there, Sheik is clearly not a separate person (and in that game, the decoupling had not yet happened, either). All that Sheik is in Smash is a moveset and an appearance. Everything else about her is Zelda. Even with the idea that the Twilight Princess Zelda doesn't turn into her (even though she did in Brawl), Sheik is inextricably linked to Zelda, no matter the incarnation.

So do they main Zelda? They main a version of Zelda, yes. Like a ZSS main would main a version of Samus, and a Dr. Mario main a version of Mario, and a Toon Link main a version of Link.

 

[Wintropy]

Does it really matter, though?

Smash considers them separate entities.

You can like Zelda and dislike Sheik, and vice-versa.

This is not some massive hate crime against Zelda.

 

[ToddCam]

Does it really matter, though?

Smash considers them separate entities.

You can like Zelda and dislike Sheik, and vice-versa.

This is not some massive hate crime against Zelda.

Doesn't matter at all. And perhaps you make the best point of all. They are not real, and ultimately, a person just likes a certain aesthetic, and doesn't need to justify it beyond that.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

If we can have 2 Links, 2 Marios and 2 Samus, 2 Zeldas shouldn't be a problem, especially as you can have 8 on the field at once

 

[A Distant Demon]

If we can have 2 Links, 2 Marios and 2 Samus, 2 Zeldas shouldn't be a problem, especially as you can have 8 on the field at once

we also can have 2 ganons easily too!

Spoiler

@Burruni is still MIA so I have to do the propaganda instead

 

[Cutie Gwen]

we also can have 2 ganons easily too!

Spoiler

@Burruni is still MIA so I have to do the propaganda instead

I miss Burruni, she was cool.


We need another Falcon character imo. By that I mean a character who has lots of flashy moves for the sake of KOing with style

 

[Arcadenik]

If we can have 2 Links, 2 Marios and 2 Samus, 2 Zeldas shouldn't be a problem, especially as you can have 8 on the field at once

But we absolutely cannot have a playable Toad if Peach uses Toad as her special move because Toad cannot be in two places at the same time... even if there are 8 Peaches holding up Toad at the same time.

 

[Sir Gengar de Èctoplasma]

But we absolutely cannot have a playable Toad if Peach uses Toad as her special move because Toad cannot be in two places at the same time... even if there are 8 Peaches holding up Toad at the same time.

Toad needs a different costume to get in... and we all know the perfect choice:

Spoiler

Cat Toad

 

[Alph Aran]

Yeah I really don't like Sheik either. I haven't finished OoT though, so maybe she's cool in that game but I can't stand her in Smash. I thought she was male in Melee lol.

Does anyone else have those characters that you like in their games, but don't really like them in Smash? I can think of a few for me:

I've thought about this before. No matter what Smash Bros. game, I do not like despite Wind Waker being my favorite video game out of all the few Nintendo games I've played that isn't Smash. Maybe it's just how Toon Link is played in this game. Just annoying to me, unfortunately.

I miss Burruni, she was cool.


We need another Falcon character imo. By that I mean a character who has lots of flashy moves for the sake of KOing with style

I don't know much about Wonder Red(Haven't played/watched a full version of The Wonder 101), but it looks like he has style. Dudes with masks must have it naturally.

 

[A Distant Demon]

I've thought about this before. No matter what Smash Bros. game, I do not like despite Wind Waker being my favorite video game out of all the few Nintendo games I've played that isn't Smash. Maybe it's just how Toon Link is played in this game. Just annoying to me, unfortunately.

I don't know much about Wonder Red(Haven't played/watched a full version of The Wonder 101), but it looks like he has style. Dudes with masks must have it naturally.

can confirm Will Wedgewood AKA Wonder Red is FILLED with style.

seriously Wonder Red would be the best for Smash

 

[Kenith]

Does it really matter, though?
Smash considers them separate entities.
You can like Zelda and dislike Sheik, and vice-versa.
This is not some massive hate crime against Zelda.

In both Melee and Brawl, they were treated as the same character. So much so that they shared a character slot in both games, as well, through transformations.

 

[StormC]

But we absolutely cannot have a playable Toad if Peach uses Toad as her special move because Toad cannot be in two places at the same time... even if there are 8 Peaches holding up Toad at the same time.

Having a playable character that can be duplicated seven times over via a game mechanic isn't really proof that NPC characters can overlap with playable fighters.

Though you could certainly make the argument that she uses a generic Toad compared to Captain Toad or what have you.

 

[PK_Knee]

can confirm Will Wedgewood AKA Wonder Red is FILLED with style.

seriously Wonder Red would be the best for Smash

Stylin'...

 

[Pakky]

we also can have 2 ganons easily too!

Spoiler

@Burruni is still MIA so I have to do the propaganda instead

I think we could have three.

-Falcondorf because I have accepted that what is considered "main series" Ganon is perpetually tied to Captain Falcon no matter what

-Toon Ganon because he would be unique enough to have his own set and he is visually different from any other Ganon being that he is from the Wind Waker series.

Big blue pig Ganon same reasons as Toon Ganon however if I had a dream, that dream would be the elimination of Falcondorf and the combination of every Ganon besides the Toon version into one cohesive Ganon. Which can be done however I don't think it will.That also has nothing to do with being creative it however has everything to do with being realistic, which I try to be.