Character Discussion Thread

[ChikoLad]

I can defeat the "SNAKE IS TOO REALISTIC FOR SMASH 4" argument with a Google Search:

 

[FlareHabanero]

Never said the inclusion of Pacman didn't have its merits. Same with the Mii and that one guy who makes YouTube videos about Ridley.

So, going by this logic, every single character would have some sort of merit.

I mean, even the worst of the worst can cause a riot from people, which would be fantastic.

 

[Shorts]

Snake's not scary, just out of place.

 

[Sehnsucht]

Snake's not scary, just out of place.

The whole point of Snake is that he isn't supposed to look out of place.

 

[BKupa666]

So, going by this logic, every single character would have some sort of merit.

I mean, even the worst of the worst can cause a riot from people, which would be fantastic.

I personally prefer character inclusions that involve the puncturing of swollen heads, the hoisting of individuals by their own petards, rather than general faceless Internet whining. But there's a case to be made for that approach as well.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I personally prefer character inclusions that involve the puncturing of swollen heads, the hoisting of individuals by their own petards, rather than general faceless Internet whining. But there's a case to be made for that approach as well.

Oh, so something along the lines of like King K. Rool.

 

[Shorts]

The whole point of Snake is that he isn't supposed to look out of place.

Elaborate.

 

[BKupa666]

Oh, so something along the lines of like King K. Rool.

People are still calling him a shoo-in? Could have fooled me.

 

[Sehnsucht]

Elaborate.

He's a secret agent whose mission it is to infiltrate highly guarded/secure/clandestine/dangerous locations.

If he stands out too much, it would not bode well for him.

Quod Erat Badumtssum

 

[Shorts]

If Smash was a mission, he would be dead. Probably ripped in half by Bowser, and Turniped to death by Peach

 

[HylianHeroBigBoss]

My god all the snake love *sheds manly tear*

As everyone has already said, there isn't a single argument that holds any water against him. The fact he was in brawl under the same circumstances throws most out the window, and the fact that he was already in smash bros blows any leftovers away. It's hard being a snake diehard sometimes since people have a double standard against him most of the time, but I'm glad many here can actually see his situation in regards to this series and how he still has just as much going for him as ever.

I've seen every anti snake argument and shot taken at him. I think I even saw the likes of someone stating that snake was why they raised brawls rating to teen.... Yeah it's that bad, that might have even been said in the snake thread recently but I can't remember.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I've seen every anti snake argument and shot taken at him. I think I even saw the likes of someone stating that snake was why they raised brawls rating to teen.... Yeah it's that bad, that might have even been said in the snake thread recently but I can't remember.

To be fair, Melee was rated Teen, and Solid Snake was nowhere in sight. The Teen rating in Melee was most likely related to Princess Peach and Zelda, and the nature of their dresses. Brawl was also given the Teen rating for the addition of some crude humor involving Wario and his Wario Waft.

So in a way, Solid Snake isn't necessarily the reason for why Brawl got the Teen rating, as other elements can play a factor in such ratings.

 

[Deleted member]

As everyone has already said, there isn't a single argument that holds any water against him.

What about the possibility that Snake could have been planned to be a one-time deal similar to Gon in Tekken 3?

I say this not as an anti-Snake, but as someone who considers all possibilities.

 

[FlareHabanero]

What about the possibility that Snake could have been planned to be a one-time deal similar to Gon in Tekken 3?

I say this not as an anti-Snake, but as someone who considers all possibilities.

Again, falls flat considering there aren't plans for cuts.

 

[Arcanir]

Again, falls flat considering there aren't plans for cuts.

To play Devil's Advocate, Sakurai could've just meant out of characters he has planned, or possibly didn't want to draw attention to it. It wouldn't be the first time we misinterpreted what we meant either.

 

[Knight Dude]

Well unless Nintendo or Konami are strongly against the inclusion of Snake in another Smash Bros game, I see no reason for Snake to be left out this time. I don't think Sakurai would have a limit of two third parties, so it's not like he's stopping at Megaman and Sonic.

 

[Deleted member]

Again, falls flat considering there aren't plans for cuts.

That only applies to the Smash Wii U/3DS roster. Nothing about all of Brawl's characters being planned to return was stated.

 

[HylianHeroBigBoss]

What about the possibility that Snake could have been planned to be a one-time deal similar to Gon in Tekken 3?

I say this not as an anti-Snake, but as someone who considers all possibilities.

It's possible as any other scenario so i wont rule that out, but I don't think sakurai would give sonic a free pass just like that while leaving snake and his fans in the dust. He could sure, but we've seen how close he sticks to tradition and he's said he knew fans enjoyed them both. I'm hoping this is one of those occasions where he sticks to tradition and brings him back, if he wants to please all fans I think he'd make sure to do his best in that respect. Even if snake was gone I'd live, I'd be angry for a bit but I'd still have plenty to love about this game. I just don't want every mongoose (snake haters) to think each one of their wild theories was the reason why, especially If sakurai never addresses the reason.

 

[FlareHabanero]

That only applies to the Smash Wii U/3DS roster. Nothing about all of Brawl's characters being planned to return was stated.

Except for the part about there aren't going to be planned cuts and the general pessimism of cuts, Which would clash with your theory that Snake would be a one time deal.

I mean, if cuts aren't going to be planned, why would there be a planned cut? That's contradictory.

 

[Shorts]

Snake, you know, could just not have his licensing renewed. I mean, Sakurai said not every character from Melee and Brawl can return.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I highly doubt Sakurai wouldn't renew the license. Why wouldn't he? Snake is a powerhouse character in terms of hype driving. He COULD have been a one time deal, but I don't see why he would be if Sonic wasn't.

At the very least, if it goes on a game by game basis, then I could almost guarantee that Sakurai would ask Kojima if he wanted Snake back. I mean it's not like Kojima had bad reasons for his inclusion.

What I'm getting at, is that there really isn't any reason to believe that the license wouldn't be renewed.

 

[Deleted member]

Except for the part about there aren't going to be planned cuts and the general pessimism of cuts, Which would clash with your theory that Snake would be a one time deal.

I mean, if cuts aren't going to be planned, why would there be a planned cut? That's contradictory.

There is a big difference between cuts during development (which Sakurai was referring to in context) and cuts between titles.

Unless of course, Sakurai's statement that there is no time to include every character from previous Smash installations somehow just refers to the five Melee characters not present in Brawl? Because it would be "contradictory" otherwise, would it not?

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

There is a big difference between cuts during development (which Sakurai was referring to in context) and cuts between titles.

I still myself think there aren't any plans to cut anybody from Brawl. If Sakurai in general hates cuts, and there weren't any characters in the same vein as Pichu, then I don't think it's too bad of a stretch to say he wants to bring everybody back from Brawl.

Obviously I can't prove it, but I think he's referring to both. If he hates cuts, then he's going to try to avoid them in general, and that means to salvage as much as he can of the Brawl roster.

 

[Kenith]

Assuming Snake returns (which I am) what would he look like now? Would he look exactly the same but HD? Or perhaps using the look from the 3DS remake of MGS3? Personally, I want this...

 

[Deleted member]

Assuming Snake returns (which I am) what would he look like now? Would he look exactly the same but HD? Or perhaps using the look from the 3DS remake of MGS3? Personally, I want this...

Give him a beard, and this will probably be how Snake looks if he comes back.

EDIT: Or this:

Though it's not that different from Brawl.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

oh dear sweet jesus we're all talking about cut characters

oh no

incoherent rambling time from me

I'm gonna just say something right now: Nobody wants characters cut unless they were roster filler in the first place. Melee was severely lacking before they did what they had to do and would have been viewed as an outrage by the gaming public press. Brawl was an excess of characters. I'm not even going to refer to the disc nor the bosses to fuel this - there was all sorts of slack made up for almost each and every franchise and it shows all around to appeal to as many as possible. The Claus costume among others (My mind is fuzzy right now), Star Wolf voice-overs, a few parts in the SSE that indicate a sort-of emptiness, Roy/Mewtwo (Without even using lolforbidden 7) and more. My mind is really fuzzy on this, but it just feels like the opposite of how Melee was to me in terms of characters and not just indications.

Case in point is just the fact that, at least what I think out of Sakurai's quote and others (Asides from technical difficulties, which newsflash, has always been a problem in the series) is that they said they might have to cut corners somewhere - Not that they will, just that they can. Will it be characters? Maybe it will be stages that are cut. Maybe features. Maybe even animation bits. Who knows? I sure as hell don't. I don't even know what we're trying to guess now.

Oh as for Snake, I'm going to answer this in the best way possible: Nobody knows. Making a guess that he's for sure back in is just as dumb as making a guess that he's a one time deal. Things can change within six-seven years.

also noticed bkupa's post, +1 to him (I even liked said post) because there are no longer shoo-ins. Well, okay, maybe the rumored characters, but even then I have a doubt in the back of my head.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

What are the odds that Solid Snake could end up with his Old Snake incarnation?

 

[IsmaR]

Assuming Snake returns (which I am) what would he look like now? Would he look exactly the same but HD? Or perhaps using the look from the 3DS remake of MGS3?

The latter would be Naked Snake, not Solid/the one in Brawl. Despite that, the MGS3D one most likely, as it's remake of the game that Brawl Snake took the most inspiration from (model, alternate camo, and easter egg wise).

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I'd say there are better chances for him to be Big Boss before Old Snake quite honestly.

Any design would be great, but if he's Old Snake, and doesn't have an Easter Egg where he vomits when after rolling, then it will be unacceptable

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Alright I'm tired of playing never ending tennis. Obviously I'm not going to change your minds so I'll just leave one last comment

@ N3ON : Obviously Goroh's priority can be seen as low because he was not added to Melee, but keep in mind that Sakurai changes his mind alot. F-Zero only had 2 games back then and that probably wasn't seen as enough merit considering it wasn't as popular as say Star Fox, but the series has come a long way since then to 2004. My main issue is that you use this to claim he didn't think Samurai Goroh as a clone made sense. This is not true. Otherwise you're saying Sakurai thinks Igglybuff as a clone makes no sense, Raichu as a clone makes no sense, and Donkey Kong Jr as a clone makes no sense. It's not that he didn't see them as clone material it's that he just didn't want THOSE characters at the time. And for all you know it was bias. Otherwise we wouldn't have gotten Wolf and plans for Toon Zelda/Toon Sheik. I think you misinterpret him. He said there were no feasible clones. Meaning there were no feasible characters that happened to be clones.

And again, priority from Sakurai's view is pretty much unpredictable. First he wanted Mewtwo in Melee, and then in Brawl he thought King Dedede was more important.

@Opossum : When you say evidence suggests that Samurai Goroh would be a unique character I have to say I disagree. You are bringing some evidence that it makes sense from a certain point of view, but nothing from the past installments suggests that iconic and unique abilities will absolutely exempt you from clone status. On top of that there is actually evidence that it makes MORE sense for him to be a clone. Because even though the katana is iconic, he's a similar character who is capable of performing all of Falcon's abilities. He's also a racer pilot so he shares the same role as Falcon and logically would have the same Final Smash anyway. It's obvious that if Sakurai thinks it makes sense for someone to share moves with another character, it doesn't really matter what unique abilities they have. I think that implementing the katana into the raptor boost would be enough spotlight considering how much he actually uses the thing in actual games. Because like Captain Falcon he is usually just racing and often has it tucked away.

The whole "He used it as an AT" isn't really a good excuse either. Because as an AT he is not a clone of Captain Falcon because he's not playable. You're defense that Little Mac used his AT powers is not a good comparison because it's the only abilities he has.

And furthermore you'd be suggesting that Sakurai would allow Samurai Goroh not to be a clone when Ganondorf still is. That I do not buy.

Lastly you're claim that he does not have similar enough body structure is false on the grounds that the only issue is that he's wider. This is irrelevant because Pichu and Toon Link are shorter and Toon Link is much skinnier.

I don't expect to change your minds as you're not really keen on anybody with a unique ability being a clone. But, I'm just gonna state the facts.

The fact that Goroh doesn't even LOOK like Captain Falcon

Good defense.

He's a fat samurai. They'd have to work hard not to make that unique.

Spoiler

View attachment 9530
That was easy

 

[IsmaR]

What are the odds that Solid Snake could end up with his Old Snake incarnation?

Practically negative. I think we'd get Punished Snake before Old Snake, and even then only as alts.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I'd say there are better chances for him to be Big Boss before Old Snake quite honestly.

Considering that Metal Gear Solid 3 was remade for the 3DS, that does sound like a strong possibility.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Weren't Snakes ties to Nintendo LESS during Brawl?

I think it's clear that people use "Snakes ties with Nintendo" as their own bias opinion on why THEY think Snake SHOULD be low priority. Completely disregarding what Sakurai thinks about what the character actually brings to the game.

As if he ever even mentioned anything about Third-Parties having huge ties to Nintendo. All he ever said was that they had to have appeared on a Nintendo console.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Yeah I'd say they were. If anything, he's in better shape now than around Brawl with the 3DS game.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Weren't Snakes ties to Nintendo LESS during Brawl?

The Metal Gear series did have some Nintendo involvement long before Brawl, so that pretty much makes your statement a moot point.

 

[Mr.Seven]

I don't know how to make one of those pics, so I'll just explain future announcements

Snake, R.O.B., Wolf, Ike, Meta Knight, and Pokemon Trainer are getting cut out.
Consider MegaMan the replacement for Snake
Consider Little Mac the replacement for R.O.B.
Chrom or Lucina will replace Ike
Krystal replaces Wolf
Mewtwo returns (maybe)

Further Newcomers
Dixie Kong
Either Shadow or Tails
Toon Zelda
Paultena
Ridley

To make a roster pic, get the roster maker, which you can download right here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-super-smash-bros-roster-maker-version-8-0-available.336761/

What I do is that, once I'm satisfied with what I got, I save it and then open the save file in MS Paint, or GIMP, or whatever and save it as a PNG file.

 

[Croph]

Well I've seen people claim Snake would be too mature or too scary for Super Smash Bros., which is a bunch of hog wash because it doesn't change the fact that Snake was in Super Smash Bros. and there is no way you can just simply ignore history like that.

Ah okay. For some reason I thought you were more referring to Snake's physical apperance (that's he's a grown man, headband + beard, etc.). To which I'm like in my head, "Maybe children might think Snake looks scary. But if that the case, I wonder what they think about Ganon who looks pretty intimidating, not to mention his role in SSE". Or is that what you mean?

I do agree that especially now it doesn't make much sense to say, as Snake's already been in Smash.

Also, Snake isn't exactly a stranger to kinky situations, like that one time Snake and Liquid fought with no shirts on or Snake being tortured by Ocelot's torture machine.

See, I didn't know much about Snake prior to Brawl. So I thought it's pretty funny how he's protrayed in the fandom sometimes.

Oh, and I'm totally looking up those situations now.

 

[Baskerville]

This is why I want alternate costumes to be a thing.
The amount of MORE fan service is right there.

 

[FlareHabanero]

There is a big difference between cuts during development (which Sakurai was referring to in context) and cuts between titles.

Unless of course, Sakurai's statement that there is no time to include every character from previous Smash installations somehow just refers to the five Melee characters not present in Brawl? Because it would be "contradictory" otherwise, would it not?

First off, that statement about being unable to include every character has to do with any time scnafu that prevents a character from being implemented, it has nothing to do with intentionally scrapping characters because the producers hate us and want us to suffer. Which means that a character like Snake wouldn't be scrapped because one day Sakurai told the developers to completely ignore Snake, but because Snake failed to make it due to priorities pushing him out of the way. Hence why I think your theory is flawed, because again it's suggesting that there would be an intentional cut when it's been clearly stated that there won't be any planned cuts, and your back up statement is something entirely different.

Second, and I know this is going to sound weird to you, but veterans are easier to develop for, and as such would naturally be kept due to the ease of access. Generally a veteran is easier to make because the character already has established movesets and playstyles that can easily be implemented into the game, with at worst a few modifications to attacks in order to make a character more diverse or viable. Meanwhile, a newcomer would be more difficult because your basically making everything from scratch, and it's no guarantee if it will come into fruition. Hence why I think all veterans will be at least planned first before newcomers, because how easy it is to include them.

 

[Big-Cat]

And again, priority from Sakurai's view is pretty much unpredictable. First he wanted Mewtwo in Melee, and then in Brawl he thought King Dedede was more important.

Guess what? Every human being that has ever existed has changed their mind. Sakurai and the developers are no exception.

@Opossum : When you say evidence suggests that Samurai Goroh would be a unique character I have to say I disagree. You are bringing some evidence that it makes sense from a certain point of view, but nothing from the past installments suggests that iconic and unique abilities will absolutely exempt you from clone status. On top of that there is actually evidence that it makes MORE sense for him to be a clone. Because even though the katana is iconic, he's a similar character who is capable of performing all of Falcon's abilities. He's also a racer pilot so he shares the same role as Falcon and logically would have the same Final Smash anyway. It's obvious that if Sakurai thinks it makes sense for someone to share moves with another character, it doesn't really matter what unique abilities they have. I think that implementing the katana into the raptor boost would be enough spotlight considering how much he actually uses the thing in actual games. Because like Captain Falcon he is usually just racing and often has it tucked away.

Please try your reasoning again with less asinine logic. Marth and Ike should be clones because they're both the protagonists of their respective games.

And no, the katana is not iconic. It's simply a part of Goroh's samurai schtick.