Character Discussion Thread

[FlareHabanero]

I think the worst argument against him that I've heard is that the HD graphics make brighter colors look great, and because Snake wore gray, he would be left out.

I don't think I've actually seen a good argument against Snake as it is.

Every argument I've seen of Snake not returning falls flat because SNAKE IS ALREADY IN SUPER SMASH BROS.

The only time arguments would work if there isn't contradictory factors, and considering every argument is conflicting with real events, it makes them all irrelevant.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Every argument I've seen of Snake not returning falls flat because SNAKE IS ALREADY IN SUPER SMASH BROS.

The only time arguments would work if there isn't contradictory factors, and considering every argument is conflicting with real events, it makes them all irrelevant.

One argument that could work is if Sakurai only wants to represent two 3rd party franchises.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

You guys are wasting your time. If Sakurai's statements won't convince him, nothing will.

He very well might be arguing for the sake of arguing.


I can't see not getting Yoshi, but getting Snake would be pretty awesome. I dunno if Nintendo would be ok with a reveal due to a game not on their platforms though.

I agree with a Yoshi reveal, and maybe a Wario reveal too.
And I would think Snake, but like you said, the game is not on their systems. I would pass this by and think it is still possible, but n I remembered every character has a link at the bottom of his/her page (and Nintendo wouldn't directly tell people to go to a site that advertises a game that will make others money).

 

[FlareHabanero]

One argument that could work is if Sakurai only wants to represent two 3rd party franchises.

That falls flat, considering it's already been stated that no character will be scrapped just for the sake of being scrapped.

This means that Snake won't be removed because there is a limit of two guest characters.

 

[Tepig2000]

Another bad argument against Snake is "He has no connections with Nintendo".

 

[Croph]

But Scoliosis, he's SCARY! He's NOT NINTENDO! He's TOO BROKEN!

How could you be this delusional I mean GAWDZ.

Snake's scary? Lol, I like how in the Smash fandom, some artists depict him as some sort of creepy pervert. I LOVE his "Tasty" taunt in Project M.

But yeah, Snake provides a pretty unique moveset (I think the major thing is to fix those disjointed hitboxes); he's almost like a unique trap fighter. I'd miss him and his moveset if Snake were gone.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I agree with a Yoshi reveal, and maybe a Wario reveal too.
And I would think Snake, but like you said, the game is not on their systems. I would pass this by and think it is still possible, but n I remembered every character has a link at the bottom of his/her page (and Nintendo wouldn't directly tell people to go to a site that advertises a game that will make others money).

When Peach was revealed, she didn't have a link under her page. At least until 3D World.

One argument that could work is if Sakurai only wants to represent two 3rd party franchises.

I find that doubtful. When you look at it, 3rd parties, which are huge hype creators...we already got Sonic and Mega Man. If they don't add Pac-Man or Snake, that's a lot of hype that they could've saved for later.

I still don't think there are any good arguments against Snake.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

That falls flat, considering it's already been stated that no character will be scrapped just for the sake of being scrapped.

This means that Snake won't be removed because there is a limit of two guest characters.

There's still the licensing portion of the deal though. Konami won't just let Sakurai use Solid Snake again without its permission.

 

[FinalStarmen]

Has there even been a character such as Solid Snake whose detractors consistently use defunct arguments against playable inclusion that, despite not affecting a previous Super Smash Brothers game, somehow through mysteriously enchanting means does within an upcoming one? It seems the "color-scheme differences" justification is the only contemporary argument against Snake's implementation as a returning veteran, and yet even this lacks valid reasoning (as per examples stated above).

Snake is the all-time legendary, undefeated world champion of the "Worst Arguments Against Inclusion" weight class division - he is not even contested by any other competitor (although Ridley is close, as in Ice-Climbers-are-close-to-Meta-Knight's-weighted-total-of-favorable-match-ups close).

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

There's still the licensing portion of the deal though. Konami won't just let Sakurai use Solid Snake again without its permission.

I don't think Kojima would want Snake cut. There would be no reason for it. Konami gets free advertising from this. Kojima is the one who asked Sakurai in the first place. I don't think Kojima would have that problem this time.

 

[BKupa666]

Has there even been a character such as Solid Snake whose detractors consistently use defunct arguments against playable inclusion that, despite not affecting a previous Super Smash Brothers game, somehow through mysteriously enchanting means does within an upcoming one? It seems the "color-scheme differences" justification is the only contemporary argument against Snake's implementation as a returning veteran, and yet even this lacks valid reasoning (as per examples stated above).

Snake is the all-time legendary, undefeated world champion of the "Worst Arguments Against Inclusion" weight class division - he is not even contested by any other competitor (although Ridley is close, as in Ice-Climbers-are-close-to-Meta-Knight's-weighted-total-of-favorable-matches close).

I'd give Ridley the edge, personally, since Snake hate hasn't yet reached meme status.

Put it this way, Snake is currently where Ridley will be in six-seven years if he becomes playable now.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

When Peach was revealed, she didn't have a link under her page. At least until 3D World.
.

That's true, I didn't think of that.
Though that was probably because Peach didnt have any game that came straight to mind, and had a link added when her game came out.
While Snake on the other hand, has a game that is coming out, and would be revealed on that day. Though I guess Nintendo doesn't HAVE TO put a link, but they would still be indirectly advertising MGS5 if they announce Snake around that time.

Not to mention Sakurai would have to make a completely random caption onto the Miiverse post that has nothing to do with MGS5, where as with most other vet. reveals (besides random ones like Marth) he mentioned there game as an explanation as why they were announced. Like in the Diddy reveal, where he said "Donkey Kong Tropical Freeze is out today in Europe and North America!"
I doubt he would say that with Snake.

 

[ChikoLad]

One argument that could work is if Sakurai only wants to represent two 3rd party franchises.

Should be noted that Sakurai said three third parties was the most he would have in Brawl. Mega Man was likely the planned third, but didn't make it for whatever reason. Sonic barely made it as is, from what I hear.

--------

I think it's also interesting how Snake was revealed when Brawl FIRST unvelied. They had no trouble getting the rights to him, from what I can gather.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Regardless, Snake is going to get revealed in a Nintendo Direct because of his trailer. So they can just pass it off as just a 3rd party veteran reveal.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Snake's scary? Lol, I like how in the Smash fandom, some artists depict him as some sort of creepy pervert. I LOVE his "Tasty" taunt in Project M.

But yeah, Snake provides a pretty unique moveset (I think the major thing is to fix those disjointed hitboxes); he's almost like a unique trap fighter. I'd miss him and his moveset if Snake were gone.

Well I've seen people claim Snake would be too mature or too scary for Super Smash Bros., which is a bunch of hog wash because it doesn't change the fact that Snake was in Super Smash Bros. and there is no way you can just simply ignore history like that.

Also, Snake isn't exactly a stranger to kinky situations, like that one time Snake and Liquid fought with no shirts on or Snake being tortured by Ocelot's torture machine.

 

[JamesDNaux]

It isn't flat out impossible for Snake to be revealed for Ground Zeroes, I would actually laugh at everyone sputtering about it.

There could even be a surprise announcement where Snake would be revealed alongside a new game, Kojima has already expressed interest in making a game for the Wii U, he just doesn't want to simply port over MGSV, he wants to make a game specifically for the Wii U that will take full advantage of the system.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I don't think Kojima would want Snake cut. There would be no reason for it. Konami gets free advertising from this. Kojima is the one who asked Sakurai in the first place. I don't think Kojima would have that problem this time.

I guess at this point, asking for four 3rd party reps seems like a long stretch. Either it's Pac-Man or Solid Snake, and it would seem pretty disturbing if Pac-Man didn't receive any representation; Namco-Bandai is involved with the game's development.

Of course, Mario Super Sluggers never did represent any Nanco-Bandai characters, but that's another story.

 

[BKupa666]

"Want to know more about Snake? Visit the Smash Bros. DOJO!!"

There's your "advertisement."

It would be disturbing if Pacman wasn't "repped?" It's disturbing that people expect him in solely based on the happenstance of which company ended up helping out with the game.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I guess at this point, asking for four 3rd party reps seems like a long stretch. Either it's Pac-Man or Solid Snake, and it would seem pretty disturbing if Pac-Man didn't receive any representation; Namco-Bandai is involved with the game's development.

Of course, Mario Super Sluggers never did represent any Nanco-Bandai characters, but that's another story.

I don't see it that way. You have 4 of the most iconic/legendary 3rd party characters in a roster of about 50. That's a small percentage, and each character has their merits.

It's not like Super Meat Boy or some other garbage tier Nintendoesque characters we're talking about here.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm reading the last couple of pages and seeing the Goroh debate and.....


......I'm actually going to need to defend Saturn's side for once.
I'm finding the opposing points to be rather.....flawed, to be honest.

Not that I'm saying Goroh should be a semi-clone, but that he can be one (albeit a "Wolf" variety) and logically, he probably would.

EDIT:

1. Sakurai chose Ganondorf due to not having any other ideas for feasible clones. You're right, Sakurai never said Goroh wasn't considered, he said no other characters made feasible clones, which logically includes Goroh. Only Ganondorf did. Therefore, unless Sakurai forgot Goroh, he is not feasible in Sakurai's mind.

Ganondorf is a faulty example. He only got into Melee due to extra time allocation. He wasn't supposed to be in, and I'd bet my bottom dollar that if he were to be held off, he'd have gotten into Brawl with a completely unique moveset. There won't be extra time this time for a similar scenario to occur.
That, and Goroh doesn't have Falcon's build in the slightest. He's much stockier. Plus, the sword is iconic to his character. Sakurai even noted that in the fact that his Assist Trophy is based around it.

The problem with these points is that you two are using Melee as justification, when Melee's clones specifically called for direct clones (which I would agree that Goroh would not work) while the argument in question is for only semi-clone status, which Goroh can work with, considering semi-clones just have to have a resembling set of specials, and even then those specials can work very differently from the original if Wolf is anything to go by.

 

[FlareHabanero]

It would be disturbing if Pacman wasn't "repped?" It's disturbing that people expect him in solely based on the happenstance of which company ended up helping out with the game.

But BKupa, you don't understand, we need more pissing-off-SmashChu characters on the roster!

 

[FinalStarmen]

I'd give Ridley the edge, personally, since Snake hate hasn't yet reached meme status.

Put it this way, Snake is currently where Ridley will be in six-seven years if he becomes playable now.

I suppose I should have prefaced this in context of Sakurai's decision-making process - Sakurai could very well easily (although I desire he does not) be convincingly persuaded by the argumentation for Ridley's inplayability, yet he would have to be considerably hard-pressed to do the same for Snake's when such arguments have not prevented his status as a playable character beforehand.

 

[ChikoLad]

Yeah, Snake is portrayed as a slight pervert in some instances. You even get a glimpse of his romantic side when he talks about Samus on the codec.

Also, I respectfully disagree with the addition of Pac-Man. If he gets in, I won't rage, or even be surprised, but I seriously don't understand why people want him so much. Half of these people don't even really play his games.

 

[BKupa666]

But BKupa, you don't understand, we need more pissing-off-SmashChu characters on the roster!

Never said the inclusion of Pacman didn't have its merits. Same with the Mii and that one guy who makes YouTube videos about Ridley.

 

[Parmite]

At first I thought that Snake would not return. But now I'm 50/50. Why would Nintendo promote Snake like that all of a sudden? Then again, they want to make their fans happy.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

You know?

They could just link to the Metal Gear Solid website just like they did with Pokemon.

http://metalgearsolid.com/

Don't advertise a game. Advertise the series.

Apparently...

THERE IS NO METAL GEAR SOLID SNAKE EATER 3D website.

 

[False Sense]

At first I thought that Snake would not return. But now I'm 50/50. Why would Nintendo promote Snake like that all of a sudden? Then again, they want to make their fans happy.

You mean like how they suddenly wanted to promote Snake all of the sudden when Brawl was announced?

 

[ChikoLad]

Just to elaborate on the point of Sakurai and Kojima being bros:

As someone training to become a games designer, if I was making a game and my friend was making one too, I'm pretty sure I would help spread the word of my friend's game as much as my own.

 

[BluePikmin11]

I'll just move this conversation to here:

Zoroark will most likely not be playable in the next game because it is obvious that Mewtwo has a higher priority with his new mega evolutions.

I don't see it possible having Zoroark whatsoever in the game because he is last gen and if he's going to make someone playable that is not Mewtwo, it'll probably be an updated pokemon trainer with 6th gen starters or a psuedo legendary from 6th gen.

Just because Mewtwo would be the next "new" Pokemon character (in which he's not), doesn't mean Zoroark could also join in addition.

 

[Arcanir]

There's still the licensing portion of the deal though. Konami won't just let Sakurai use Solid Snake again without its permission.

The argument can also be made for the Nintendo side of things as while I'd imagine Sakurai will ask, they are the main company that would have to pay and sign off for his use. If they don't agree with the character in the game, then the situation's just as bad as if Konami said no.

Having said that, personally I don't think he will be cut, but there does have to be a consideration for the business side of things.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

You know?

They could just link to the Metal Gear Solid website just like they did with Pokemon.

http://metalgearsolid.com/

Don't advertise a game. Advertise the series.

Apparently...

THERE IS NO METAL GEAR SOLID SNAKE EATER 3D website.

I now believe Snake will return, and possibly be revealed this month.

Thanks.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I don't see it that way. You have 4 of the most iconic/legendary 3rd party characters in a roster of about 50. That's a small percentage, and each character has their merits.

It's not like Super Meat Boy or some other garbage tier Nintendoesque characters we're talking about here.

I'm just finding it very hard to treat Solid Snake as an absolute shoe-in. I'll pretty much end the subject here.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

I'll just move this conversation to here:

Just because Mewtwo would be the next "new" Pokemon character (in which he's not), doesn't mean Zoroark could also join in addition.

Meh, I think Zoroark should be a Lucario alt this time around.

I know that is incredibles stupid, but I feel with Mewtwo's reinduction and if they keep the Brawl Pokèmon, there is no room for ANOTHER Pokemon character. S I feel that Zoroark should be in the game, just not as a full character, and a Lucario alt would make most sense, even though it sounds stupid.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Pac-man?

He can get in along with Snake easily. I don't really see 4 third party characters as being a stretch. As famous as he is though, Pac-man's inclusion depends on whether Sakurai sees any potential in him.

As for Snake, it depends on if Kojima and Sakurai want him back, and I don't see why they wouldn't, given his overall positive reception.

 

[Parmite]

You mean like how they suddenly wanted to promote Snake all of the sudden when Brawl was announced?

Last Last time Konami had to beg to get Snake in.

 

[ChikoLad]

I don't know about anyone else, but the point I'M trying to make is not "Snake is DEFINITELY back", because my uncle doesn't work for Nintendo.

The point I'm trying to make is that there is literally no concrete reason to believe he WON'T be back, and trying to say otherwise makes no sense. There is reason to believe he might be back though, main reason being that Sakurai said no plans for cuts were in the cards, and the only character he said there was difficulty re-implementing is Ice Climbers.

As for Pac-Man, I disagree with his inclusion not because of an over saturation of third parties or anything, but because I think he is undeserving. If he does get in, I will be happy for those who wanted him. However, he's just not that relevant or iconic, not on the level of Mario, Sonic, or Mega Man anyway. If I had to have a Namco rep, it'd be Jin Kazama or Kazuya Mishima from Tekken. They are way more iconic than Pac-Man, and have had much more staying power, and overall, I feel Tekken has had a way bigger influence on the gaming industry than Pac Man has, even if the original Pac Man was revolutionary (though this is a moot point, as the industry was hardly existant at the time). Tekken also has connotations with Nintendo due to Tekken Tag Tournament Wii U, which includes bonus costumes for every character on the roster based on various Nintendo characters (they EVEN have Captain Falcon). There is also a Mushroom Battle mode, where various power-ups from the Mario franchise are utilised mid fight.

 

[UltimateCyborgOverlord]

I think my huge problem with Zoroark is that.... well, frankly, I'm not sure how it would work. It's main iconic ability is the Illusion ability, which allows it to take the form of a Pokemon, but unlike Ditto's Transform, it doesn't actually become that Pokemon, moves, type and all. It only takes the form of it. Meaning that should you have Zoroark take the form of a Poison type Pokemon against an opponent Psychic type, they'll use their Psychic attacks in hopes of landing a Super Effective only to find that it doesn't work in the slightest since Zoroark is a Dark type and is therefore immune, allowing a perfect opportunity for Zoroark to land a Super Effective of it's own.

This iconic ability and the strategy that goes with it works well in a turn based RPG, but.. I just don't see it working as part of a playable character in a high action fighting game like Smash Bros. Maybe as a Pokeball Pokemon where one Pokemon comes out and you expect it to do one thing, but then it does something else entirely before revealing itself to be Zoroark in disguise (like, say, expecting the Goldeen that pops out to flop around like it always does only to see it start using Shadow Claw or Foul Play, then revealing itself as Zoroark). I just don't think Zoroark's iconic ability works as a playable character. And having a character WITHOUT it's iconic ability would be a bit too silly I believe. That's like Kirby without his Copy ability.

 

[Curious Villager]

The whole art style argument against Snake is practically the exact same argument everybody used against Toon Link during Brawl all over again, except the other way round now.

So if a nitty gritty art style didn't stop Toon Link from making it into Brawl, why would a more colourful art style stop Snake for Smash 4?

 

[Arcanir]

Yeah, realistically the only reason Snake wouldn't come back is if Konami and Nintendo don't reach an agreement for some reason, which is an issue for any third party. Snake could be cut, but it won't be because "he doesn't fit!" or "his games are not on Nintendo!"

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Last Last time Konami had to beg to get Snake in.

Nope.

Just Kojima and Sakurai.

And the begging was during Melee...