Character Discussion Thread

[StormC]

He's much more than that though, he's similar to Mega-Man in a sense, only he's one of newer third-parties:
7 of Layton's main games exclusively on Nintendo portables (6 of Mega Man's main games exclusively on the NES) and it's very popular franchise, especially in Europe. ( Just like Mega Man back in his early days on the NES) I'm going to keep it brief though, as I don't want to spoil some of the facts, as I will mention them in the Layton article I post soon.

Mega Man is also the mascot of one of the biggest Japanese third party companies and has more than 25 years of history, in addition to being the most requested character for Smash 4 across the world.

I'm pretty sure he is, as Sakurai said, in a class of his own compared to Layton.

 

[Deleted member]

@Fuzzy Pickles!
Out of curiosity were you also one of the people who said we weren't going to be getting DLC/nothing past Mewtwo/only two or three past Mewtwo?

No.

- Ever since DLC was found by data mining I always thought we were going to be getting DLC but I didn't expect any veterans, only 2-3 newcomers.
- I thought Mewtwo, Lucas, Wolf, and Roy were gone forever after the initial roster had them as no shows. After Mewtwo (to my surprise) got confirmed thought, my expectations switched to 4-5 characters since I now expected veterans to show up as DLC as well as 1-3 newcomers. I now expected Wolf, had Lucas at 50/50, but still had no hope for Roy (since I thought Sakurai wouldn't add a fifth Fire Emblem character).
- Then Lucas got confirmed and we got announcement of the ballot. I became 99% certain of Wolf's return (still am even if I don't believe there are anymore pre-ballot characters) and also expected King K. Rool who I had previously doubted as DLC due to the poor treatment DK got as a franchise in the base game. I now thought Roy was possible thought I still didn't expect him. Expectations was around four to six characters.
- Roy and Ryu got leaked and I raised my expectations to seven to eight characters. Originally I thought the six Marios were all pre-ballot so I thought it was going to be eight to nine characters.

My expectations was rather on par or even optimistic until last month when I decided to look at the six Marios at face value and realized how weak most DLC candidate were given the emphasis on popularity. The only reason why I think more than six is plausible now is because Sakurai mentioned there were "several" more characters (which in itself is not a perfect translation). I'd say that predicting seven characters is rather reasonable.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Layton is a B tier third party when we only get A tiers.

Blue, he's got more of a legacy than Bayonetta (as in he actually has one), but he's still not quite enough.

 

[Chandeelure]

He has decently notable support in the ballot. He doesn't reach really high like Bayonetta or Shovel Knight, but there he's there doing pretty well in support for his inclusion to get considered. One of the more notable third-parties brought up when it comes to the ballot and appears in many wish lists, you're over-exaggerating his lack of popularity.


He's much more than that though, he's similar to Mega-Man in a sense, only he's one of newer third-parties:
7 of Layton's main games exclusively on Nintendo portables (6 of Mega Man's main games exclusively on the NES) and it's very popular franchise, especially in Europe. ( Just like Mega Man back in his early days on the NES) I'm going to keep it brief though, as I don't want to spoil some of the facts, as I will mention them in the Layton article I post soon.

I strongly suggest that you research about Layton. I'm a big Layton fan and have been playing his games for a long time, and I can tell you don't know much about the franchise.

Layton is not popular, like I said, he is not even the most popular third party, characters like Snake, Banjo, Shovel Knight, Shantae, Bayonetta, Bomberman, Rayman, etc, are more popular than him.
No, he is not like Mega Man, Capcom's most iconic character and the most requested character worldwide.
I know about all the possible DLC characters, even the very unlikely ones like Layton, I don't need to be a fan of his games to know about his pros and cons.
I read your Bayonetta article actually, it was basically the same thing you say here, decent popularity, she doesn't need to strip and can be unique... so yeah.

No offense, but I think that you are a biased hipster.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Mega Man is also the mascot of one of the biggest Japanese third party companies and has more than 25 years of history, in addition to being the most requested character for Smash 4 across the world.

I'm pretty sure he is, as Sakurai said, in a class of his own compared to Layton.

Level-5 has been in business making games since 1998, and they have been becoming one of the bigger video-game companies with it's newest money making franchises like Professor Layton and Yokai Watch (especially). Professor Layton is considered to be the mascot for the company by many.

Sums up most arguments with you really.
Joking aside, lets look at my response again

Seems like unnecessary mocking to me. :I

[/quote]I state that although I like the Shantae franchise and want to see her, I also state something absolutely ridiculous is more likely. Unless you've got a problem with things unless they are absolutely clear, such as most autists or other handicapped people, it should be clear. I apologize in advance if there are any autistic or handicapped people here who feel offended, I've worked with them, very nice people[/quote]
Yeah, that's completely illogical to me, Magikarp doesn't even pass the Pokemon criteria that well:
http://nintendoeverything.com/how-pokemon-characters-are-chosen-for-smash-bros/

"Well first of all, we talk with the Pokemon company. What’s the hot Pokemon? What Pokemon are in the movies right now? And really do a lot of research on that front. For example, X and Y are coming out – of course, we haven’t done any market research because they’re not out yet, but we look at the animated series or movies and anything like that and again, find out which ones are going to be central to any of conversations in Pokemon going forward. But it’s not just that – going back to just what we talked about, what’s unique about them? Where do they fit in with the rest of everything else? What do they have? It’s a combination of those things.”

Magikarp doesn't fit any of the criteria Sakurai states in this article, nor does have noticeable legitimate ballot support to be qualifiable for the ballot. Thus making him less likely than Shantae.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Level-5 has been in business making games since 1998, and they have been becoming one of the bigger video-game companies with it's newest money making franchises like Professor Layton and Yokai Watch (especially). Professor Layton is considered to be the mascot for the company by many.


Seems like unnecessary mocking to me. :I

I state that although I like the Shantae franchise and want to see her, I also state something absolutely ridiculous is more likely. Unless you've got a problem with things unless they are absolutely clear, such as most autists or other handicapped people, it should be clear. I apologize in advance if there are any autistic or handicapped people here who feel offended, I've worked with them, very nice people[/quote]
Yeah, that's completely illogical to me, Magikarp doesn't even pass the Pokemon criteria that well:
http://nintendoeverything.com/how-pokemon-characters-are-chosen-for-smash-bros/

Magikarp doesn't fit any of the criteria Sakurai states in this article, nor does have noticeable legitimate ballot support to be qualifiable for the ballot. Thus making him less likely than Shantae.[/quote]
Western third party character
Pokemon that's surprisingly wellreceived
What would a Japanese developer pick? You aren't a hipster if you think Indies are likely, but learn to not think likely means likeable, and grow some realism every once in a while

 

[StormC]

Level-5 has been in business making games since 1998, and they have been becoming one of the bigger video-game companies with it's newest money making franchises like Professor Layton and Yokai Watch (especially).

And Layton has been around since... 2007.

Level 5's games still lack the international popularity both Capcom and Mega Man games enjoy.

Professor Layton is considered to be the mascot for the company by many.

This seems like a stretch to me, and isn't really a point in favor of Level 5 due to how minor Level 5 is anyway.

 

[A Distant Demon]

a reminder that blue saying a character is likely doesn't mean Krool or wolf likely.

20% likely or something like that.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Layton is a not iconic third party character with no popularity in the ballot.
He is not even in the top 5 most popular third party characters.

I'm pretty sure the reasons are "his games appear in Nintendo consoles and he can be unique", or something bad like that.
Not enough.

Im pretty sure that's the reasoning people use for a ton of 3rd parties. However, they don't compare to what we've gotten.

Something I thought about earlier...but think about the Top 5 Multi-platform 3rd party characters with a definitive legacy in gaming that are left aside from who we have.

Snake- iconic character from series that revolutionized the stealth genre. Elements of Metal Gear gameplay have left a footprint on other games of the genre, and the series is referenced throughout other games (actually, there's a reference to it in the new Batman game!) Has plenty of popularity in the Smash Ballot.

Rayman- another platforming icon. May not be up there like the ones we currently have, but he's a fairly well known character to gamers and non-gamers alike. Seems like a fairly popular choice in the ballot

Uh...

Simon Belmont- Castlevania is a staple of retro gaming, and is a series that has lasting gameplay impressions on other games in the industry. I don't know much else about Castlevania (never played it), but i'm sure somebody else could go more in depth.

I don't know guys. 3rd parties aren't just like any old 1st party character, and I don't know why someone would think they would be. Every 3rd party we've gotten has been a pretty substantial inclusion. Plenty of 3rd parties simply do not stack up with who we have.

To be fair, Snake wouldn't have been in in the first place if he wasn't a gaming icon. Sakurai has said his piece on adding 3rd parties, and if Snake was say for example, Super Meat Boy, I would have to think things would be different.

Interesting note on 3rd parties: Each of them premiered during earlier gaming years...Also I just realized I didn't list 5. I couldn't even come up with anybody else! (Disclaimer: There are plenty I like, but not many that I feel have the starpower of the featured 3rd parties we've already gotten)

 

[aldelaro5]

a reminder that blue saying a character is likely doesn't mean Krool or wolf likely.

20% likely or something like that.

....weird standards. For me, "decent" is above 50% while "likely" is above 70%. After it;s stuff like "very likely" or "probably".

But 20% for me is unlikely....

 

[StormC]

Snake- iconic character from series that revolutionized the stealth genre. Elements of Metal Gear gameplay have left a footprint on other games of the genre, and the series is referenced throughout other games (actually, there's a reference to it in the new Batman game!) Has plenty of popularity in the Smash Ballot.

Rayman- another platforming icon. May not be up there like the ones we currently have, but he's a fairly well known character to gamers and non-gamers alike. Seems like a fairly popular choice in the ballot

Uh...

Simon Belmont- Castlevania is a staple of retro gaming, and is a series that has lasting gameplay impressions on other games in the industry. I don't know much else about Castlevania (never played it), but i'm sure somebody else could go more in depth.

I don't know guys. 3rd parties aren't just like any old 1st party character, and I don't know why someone would think they would be. Every 3rd party we've gotten has been a pretty substantial inclusion. Plenty of 3rd parties simply do not stack up with who we have.

This is pretty much exactly my thoughts on the matter. Rayman is definitely possible (unless it's true Sakurai rejected him), especially for Smash 5, but Belmont is a stretch for me with the current going-ons in Konami and Castlevania's waning popularity in recent years. The fact that the least iconic third party character in Smash is Solid Snake says a lot.

After that, who are you really looking at that can compare to in history, popularity, and notability?

EDIT: My scale would go like this:

100%: Confirmed
75%: Likely
50%: Plausible
25%: Unlikely
0%: Deconfirmed

 

[BluePikmin11]

Layton is not popular, like I said, he is not even the most popular third party, characters like Banjo, Shovel Knight, Shantae, Bayonetta, Bomberman, Rayman, etc, are more popular than him.

They don't need to be the most popular, they just need to be noticeable. Layton support is in fact noticeable, commonly appearing among many gaming site's and Youtube's wish lists for the ballot to get considered.

No, he is not like Mega Man, Capcom's most iconic character and the most requested character worldwide.

Didn't say he's exactly, hence why I brought up "in a sense". His Smash demand may not be as big as Mega-Man, but it's still noticeable enough to get considered for the ballot.

I know about about all the possible DLC characters, even the very unlikely ones like Layton, I don't need to be a fan of his games to know about his pros and cons.

It seems like you just know their names and their appearance.
You do need to know at least some facts about the franchise, you don't have to play them, just research Chandelure.

And Layton has been around since... 2007.

Level 5's games still lack the international popularity both Capcom and Mega Man games enjoy.

This seems like a stretch to me, and isn't really a point in favor of Level 5 due to how minor Level 5 is anyway.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level-5_(video_game_company)#cite_note-1

Level-5 is one of the ten largest video game companies in Japan, where it held a 3.2% market share in 2013.

Trust me, Level-5 is getting bigger, especially with the Yokai Watch phenomenon in Japan.

 

[StormC]

They don't need to be the most popular, they just need to be noticeable.

The only times we've gotten third parties due to popularity is when they're the most popular, so I can't say I agree.

Sakurai didn't even consider Mega Man during Brawl's development, despite probably being a top 10 character for it.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

They don't need to be the most popular, they just need to be noticeable. Layton support is in fact noticeable, commonly appearing among many gaming site's and Youtube's wish lists for the ballot to get considered.


Didn't say he's exactly, hence why I brought up "in a sense". His Smash demand may not be as big as Mega-Man, but it's still noticeable enough to get considered for the ballot.


It seems like you just know their names and their appearance.
You do need to know at least some facts about the franchise, you don't have to play them, just research Chandelure.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level-5_(video_game_company)#cite_note-1

Trust me, Level-5 is getting bigger, especially with the Yokai Watch phenomenon in Japan.

Sonic- Gaming Legend
Pac-Man- Gaming Legend
Mega Man- Gaming Legend
Ryu- Gaming Legend
Solid Snake- Gaming Legend

Layton- Eh, he's noticeable at least.

wut?

 

[Bowserlick]

Everyone put your lists. And we will see who comes closest.

1. K. Rool
2. Dixie Kong
3. Wolf
4. Isaac
5. Bomberman
6. Simon Belmont

Fully commit.

 

[StormC]

1. Wolf
2. K. Rool

 

[Deleted member]

My List:
1. I
2. Don't
3. ****in'
4. Know

Best list ever.

 

[Xzsmmc]

Everyone put your lists. And we will see who comes closest.

1. K. Rool
2. Dixie Kong
3. Wolf
4. Isaac
5. Bomberman
6. Simon Belmont

Fully commit.

This isn't a horse race. Who cares if you're right or not? It's all just speculatory.

 

[BluePikmin11]

The only times we've gotten third parties due to popularity is when they're the most popular, so I can't say I agree.

Sakurai didn't even consider Mega Man during Brawl's development, despite probably being a top 10 character for it.

Can't say I agree, especially with Pac-Man (who has less requests than Pac-Man, but got in.

....weird standards. For me, "decent" is above 50% while "likely" is above 70%. After it;s stuff like "very likely" or "probably".

But 20% for me is unlikely....

Quick summary for me:

99% Has almost all things going for them, Wolf and Mewtwo are examples of this.

75% Has a lot going in their favored such as being planned, Dixie and Chorus Kids are examples of this.

50/50 means can go either way. In the case of Ice Climbers whether Sakurai is willing to make them work again.

25% Decent shot of happening, hasn't been leaked or has more notable factors (like being pushed by Nintendo, or being more prominent to Nintendo) to be more likely.

10%-20% Ok shot of happening, but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't get in.

 

[Kenith]

Everyone put your lists. And we will see who comes closest.

1. K. Rool
2. Dixie Kong
3. Wolf
4. Isaac
5. Bomberman
6. Simon Belmont
Fully commit.

What kind of list is this?

 

[StormC]

Can't say I agree, especially with Pac-Man (who has less requests than Pac-Man, but got in.

That would be because Namco-Bandai was developing the game.

 

[Calane]

This is pretty much exactly my thoughts on the matter. Rayman is definitely possible (unless it's true Sakurai rejected him), especially for Smash 5, but Belmont is a stretch for me with the current going-ons in Konami and Castlevania's waning popularity in recent years. The fact that the least iconic third party character in Smash is Solid Snake says a lot.

After that, who are you really looking at that can compare to in history, popularity, and notability?

The closest I can think of is Bomberman. I don't believe he's as popular as the ones we currently have, but he has tons of history and notability. The series started all the way back in 1983, and (according to Wikipedia) "His franchise is one of the most commercially successful of all time" (I'm fully aware that Wikipedia isn't the most reliable source of information, but it serves my point well enough). Bomberman is a character that anybody who calls themselves a "gamer" knows or at least has heard of. He's been featured in over 70 games (or so I've read), and even had a crossover with Wario at one point. I believe the franchise also helped contribute to the "party game" genre, but I'm not 100% sure about that.

Bomberman is classic, has a very long history in gaming and with Nintendo, has an iconic design that really can't be forgotten, has some great games (some of my favorites, really), and is well known enough to stand beside the other third party characters in SSB4. The only thing he lacks is "popularity", as I'm not sure how many people love the franchise as much as I do. In any case, I believe Bomberman is the last huge third party character not in Smash.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

That would be because Namco-Bandai was developing the game.

It would also likely be, well, because he's ****ing Pac-Man.

 

[Kenith]

Pac-Man was highly requested. Probably would have been more requested if people realized it would be classic Pac-Man.

 

[BluePikmin11]

That would be because Namco-Bandai was developing the game.

Yes, my point was that third-parties don't need to be the most popular to get in, and Pac-Man is an example of someone who got in while not being the most popular, he was decently requested back then, but not at the level of Mega-Man's pre-SSB4 speculation.

 

[StormC]

Yes, my point was that third-parties don't need to be the most popular to get in

They do in a ballot that will be used to develop and release characters for fanservice that have to be bought separately.

You seriously think Nintendo is gonna pick a middle-of-the-road character that requires third party negotiations as DLC?

 

[Deleted member]

It would also likely be, well, because he's ****ing Pac-Man.

He's the goddamn Pac-Man.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Im only half paying attention but is Layton being compared to Pac Man of all characters one of the most iconic. . .things in existence?

not exactly the most logical comparison.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

All the reminders that we'll probably only get A-list third parties and no one lower than that make me sad because they're probably right.

Professor Layton, along with the more well-known indie characters (Shantae, Quote, Shovel Knight) would all be cool. It's a shame none of them were blockbusters because then it'd be a different story.

I won't stop wanting them but I'll be realistic and not expect much regardless.

 

[BluePikmin11]

They do in a ballot that will be used to develop and release characters for fanservice that have to be bought separately.

You seriously think Nintendo is gonna pick a middle-of-the-road character that requires third party negotiations as DLC?

Depends on what you mean by middle of the road. If said middle-road comes from a popular third-party franchise and is notably requested, then yeah it would be worth the rights and development cost for.

Im only half paying attention but is Layton being compared to Pac Man of all characters one of the most iconic. . .things in existence?

not exactly the most logical comparison.

Im only half paying attention but is Layton being compared to Pac Man of all characters one of the most iconic. . .things in existence?

not exactly the most logical comparison.

I was arguing that 3rd parties don't need to be the most popular to get in, and argued Pac-Man was an example of this. Layton was not a part of this specific argument.

The only times we've gotten third parties due to popularity is when they're the most popular, so I can't say I agree.

 

[StormC]

When I say "due to popularity," I'm saying it's Sakurai adding a character primarily because of their popularity.

This only applies to and , who were the most requested characters for Brawl and 4 (and in the former's case, had the game delayed to add him). Not because they were in the top 5 or 10. The most. Mega Man wasn't even on the table during Brawl's development (despite Capcom being open to it) and he was one of the most popular requests in that game.

was a request from a friend of Sakurai's.
is the most famous video game character after Mario, the mascot of the developer of SSB4, and requested by Miyamoto.
is someone we don't know the full story of, but Sakurai is a fan of Street Fighter and Capcom is cooperative in general.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Yes, my point was that third-parties don't need to be the most popular to get in, and Pac-Man is an example of someone who got in while not being the most popular, he was decently requested back then, but not at the level of Mega-Man's pre-SSB4 speculation.

Not being the most popular doesn't suddenly override all other reasons.

Popularity isn't what is going to keep characters out. It's Sakurai discretion. To think that the guy would suddenly make an exception for a character who quite simply not even close to being on the level of the others included is just bad logic with zero reason to believe it would happen.

 

[DustyPumpkin]

I think it's that time to break out the happy smiling burger gently floating across the screen

thank you Burgie
Burgie for Smash?

 

[AncientTobacco]

Yes, my point was that third-parties don't need to be the most popular to get in, and Pac-Man is an example of someone who got in while not being the most popular, he was decently requested back then, but not at the level of Mega-Man's pre-SSB4 speculation.

That argument doesn't get you around the iconicness requirements.

 

[N3ON]

Pac-Man was highly requested. Probably would have been more requested if people realized it would be classic Pac-Man.

Not at all until Namco's involvement was revealed.

Pac-Man is obviously iconic, but I do have to agree it was likely Namco's presence that got him included.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

One thing that I haven't really thought about with Metal Gear Solid, is that the series is well known for it's storytelling.

Reading an article on the Top 10 most well known video gaming characters reminded me of that. Granted I disagreed with the list. Mega Man wasn't on it, yet Gordon Freeman was. Mario, Link, Pac-Man, Snake and Pikachu were on there, as were Lara Croft, Master Chief, Gordon Freeman. I forget who else.

Not at all until Namco's involvement was revealed.

Pac-Man is obviously iconic, but I do have to agree it was likely Namco's presence that got him included.

I partially agree, but with Miyamoto suggesting it, it may have been on Sakurai's mind.

I think Namco being involved sealed the deal though for sure. At least for a Namco character...especially after that stuff about Heihachi.

 

[Kenith]

Gordon Freeman being a most well-known video game characters list is kinda really dumb. Especially if there's no Mega Man.
The rest of it is pretty sound.

I also am really surprised Heihachi was considered. He doesn't seem to be nearly on the same level as the third-parties we have, nor is he outstandingly unique, or requested...

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Gordon Freeman being a most well-known video game characters list is kinda really dumb. Especially if there's no Mega Man.
The rest of it is pretty sound.

I also am really surprised Heihachi was considered. He doesn't seem to be nearly on the same level as the third-parties we have, nor is he outstandingly unique, or requested...

Part of me questions if adding Heihachi would have had anything to do with having Ryu vs. Heihachi. But there were probably discussions about it during development. But yeah, I tend to agree. It seems weird.

 

[Kenith]

Yeah Ryu Vs. Heihachi is he only reason I can think they would have added him.
However, if I was going to choose a Namco fighter to take on Ryu...

 

[Deleted member]

Im only half paying attention but is Layton being compared to Pac Man of all characters one of the most iconic. . .things in existence?

not exactly the most logical comparison.

Sure beats someone comparing Pac-Man to Hitler for the third time in this Board's history.