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Cutie Gwen

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Sexism confirmed!

Oh wait, that already happened with Super Princess Peach. But it was fun seeing the female rights groups being triggered by the idea of fighting with your out of control moods. No matter why Peach never had such abilities in any Smash title since Sakurai would be afraid of offending them. :troll:
Actually, Peach has gotten more girly in smash if Relax Alax was any indication
 

EdgeTheLucas

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I'll add onto this...it's unfortunate that he's treated as this mythical being who can do no wrong instead of just a normal developer with strengths and weaknesses. People will say that "That's not true, people complain all the time!!" but almost every last one of those complaints is written off as "immature" or "whiny" or "insignificant," and their makers marginalized.

This holds true for gameplay philosophies ("Melee was too fast because he said so, so shut up, Melee fans!"), character design ("Ganondorf makes sense! Stop complaining about Wario!"), character choice ("Ridley really was too big! Who cares about K. Rool! This shock choice was so genius!"), or anything in between ("Who cares! It's just a game! It's fun! Nothing you say matters because I disagree with it!").

I can't think of another series (books/films/other games/TV shows) where this level of shutting down critics is such a mainstream phenomenon. And before it comes up, yes, not all of the people making such criticisms do so smartly or eloquently, but most fans seem perfectly content to throw the babies out with the bathwater, so to speak.
This beautiful quote made my morning.

I love Sakurai, but not unconditionally. I've got problems and I wanna voice 'em sometimes. So please hear me out when I do.

Please guys.

Pls

Like BKupa666 said I haven't seen this anti-criticism air around any other TV series / movie / book / video game / etc. Please don't disregard the problems some of us have with Smash. As much as we all love the series, we should agree that it isn't perfect.
 

Schnee117

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This beautiful quote made my morning.

I love Sakurai, but not unconditionally. I've got problems and I wanna voice 'em sometimes. So please hear me out when I do.

Please guys.

Pls

Like BKupa666 said I haven't seen this anti-criticism air around any other TV series / movie / book / video game / etc. Please don't disregard the problems some of us have with Smash. As much as we all love the series, we should agree that it isn't perfect.
The whole anti-criticism thing isn't exclusive to Smash bros. There's always those sort of fans with everything though funnily enough I've mostly seen it with Nintendo products.
 
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StormC

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The whole anti-criticism thing isn't exclusive to Smash bros. There's always those sort of fans with everything though funnily enough I've mostly seen it with Nintendo products.
Yeah, there's definitely an anti-criticism culture surrounding Nintendo in general. I'd be curious to really dig into the reasons why, perhaps in a more appropriate thread or site.
 

Scoliosis Jones

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There's also a difference between criticism and being a whiny brat. There are plenty of those in the Smash fanbase as well.
 

DustyPumpkin

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The fact that there are some fans who actually view the game as good is mind-blowing. Some even go as to argue that Samus had to mentally prepare herself when killing him in Super Metroid and the fact that all fan needs to read the canon Metroid manga to understand Samus's PTSD in Other M.

But that still doesn't stop the fact that the game had so many flaws from a gameplay and story perspective. Then again, there are bound to be white knights that defend a game no matter how terrible it is (Other M, Yoshi's New Island, Sonic 2006, Stars Fox Adventures, ect.).
Eh, it PLAYS alright, pretty fun when it can be, but the bad outweighs the good by so much it's not even worth it
 

PushDustIn

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I think there's a huge difference in "anti-criticism"and understanding the "designer's intent". The former treats the being like a diety, while the later promotes an understanding of why some (sometimes perplexing) design choices are made.

Sakurai is an extremely stubborn man. He's very obsessive about details--sometimes for better and sometimes for worse. For example Hal Laboratory designed 64's color scheme for Sakurai's TV, slightly altering the green colors of the warp pipes and the background in Mushroom Kingdom. I have a ton of examples of Sakurai doing stuff like this in development. I'm sure that it drives his staff nuts.

A huge issue is that sometimes Sakurai's words are twisted and given new meaning by the fan base itself. For example, the whole fighting game character quote was more able simply moving a character from another game and copying their moveset, but was twisted and interpreted by clickbait hungry blogs to mean "no fighting game characters". And so when Ryu showed up, everyone is saying that Sakurai is a hypocrite.

Fans can be upset. But with a series as big as Smash, there's always going to be an ignored or mistreated section. He can't please everyone.

Furthermore, he has very strong opinions on how to balance a game like Smash Brothers, and what kind of characters can be in Smash and in what role. His view on Kirbyism is something that is probably unique among the developers. We don't have to accept it, but if we understand his rational then we can better anticipate what will happen next and why choices were made.

Again, he doesn't just throw things together. As long as fans understand that, then a proper debate can be had. But if fans whine or even accept his choices without understanding then, then it just becomes a matter of personal preference which is impossible to properly debate.
 

Pakky

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We need more characters with counters in Smash because you know, that never gets old
There's also a difference between criticism and being a whiny brat. There are plenty of those in the Smash fanbase as well.
I think sometimes especially now the community as a case of "Everything is amazing but nobody's happy" We have some the greatest character in video game history for example and have the rare opportunity to get more and people waste the opportunity on wanting well subjectively "bad" characters you know the ones and not talking about Freddy or Shrek or Goku.
 
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aldelaro5

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We need more characters with counters in Smash because you know, that never gets old
Here;s an excerpt of my Paper Mario moveset which has it :)

: Paper Mario holds his fist with an angry face for a tiny amount of time. If any foes attack him while in this state, he will spin with his fist up and the enemy receives strong damage. This is basically a counter, but it has good ending lag so this is risky to use, but the damage it gives worth the try.

I didn't featured visuals, but it would be like this:



I would jsut love that :)
 

Pakky

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Why do I have a feeling you just came back from for glory :p
Haven't played all day actually, but I must say Roy makes the other FE characters look like children with wooden swords.

Also on the topic of Ridley's range ever being a problem, *looks at Mewtwo and Shulk* yeah...
 
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Scoliosis Jones

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The reason I say, "whiny brats" is because there's a very...very clear difference.

It's one thing to give something constructive, saltless feedback. But when there are repeated comments on the same topics and they're consistently negative everyday, it turns into whining.

I had characters I wanted, and they didn't get in. You don't see me complaining. You aren't always going to get what you want, so matter how much you want it. I've had maybe one comment of rantiness about Snake, but that's about it.

Then you have people/fans who are personally offended when their character doesn't get in. I'm typically one to say, "hell yeah!" To supporting your character to the bitter end. But when it turns into, "my opinion is better than the guy who has several years experience in the gaming industry and brought me this series in the first place, and he should cater to what I want regardless of his personal philosophies", I have to solidly disagree.

There are differences though. Nothing is black and white.
 

Pakky

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Also we need more swordsmen, and Pokemon because Smash doesn't have that many.

Here;s an excerpt of my Paper Mario moveset which has it :)

: Paper Mario holds his fist with an angry face for a tiny amount of time. If any foes attack him while in this state, he will spin with his fist up and the enemy receives strong damage. This is basically a counter, but it has good ending lag so this is risky to use, but the damage it gives worth the try.

I didn't featured visuals, but it would be like this:



I would jsut love that :)
I can't even be mad about that, good work.
 
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Morbi

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Also we need more swordsmen, and Pokemon because Smash doesn't have that many.

I can't even be mad about that, good work.
Or perhaps we need a swordsman Pokemon, I nominate Aegislash!

Haven't played all day actually, but I must say Roy makes the other FE characters look like children with wooden swords.

Also on the topic of Ridley's range ever being a problem, *looks at Mewtwo and Shulk* yeah...
To quote Sakurai, "But he might have been a little slow. Would that have been alright?"
 

Dinoman96

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Another thing that bothers me when people talk about Sakurai is this notion that he's incredibly lazy or tone-deaf/out of touch when it comes to making character movesets. A lot of people went up in arms about this after Sakurai said he strives for characters to be accurate as much as possible. "But but, you gave this character this thing he doesn't do in his game!". People like this: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=140133763&postcount=60

There are a few characters I feel who aren't exactly up to snuff (Ganondorf, Wario, etc) but I honestly do think Sakurai did proper justice for most of the characters in Smash, especially a lot of the newcomers in Smash 4 like Mega Man, Ryu, Shulk, Villager, and such. He makes some elements up, but for the most part it usually fits the character in question. Luigi doesn't launch himself like a missile in Mario games, and yet it works because Luigi is weird, awkward, and yet amazing, as is Green Missile. :p

Even the characters who have entirely made up movesets still make sense within the context of their series. Star Fox characters fight like arwings, being able to shoot, boost forward, and reflect. Falcon is basically an F-Zero vehicle with legs: Fast, hits like a truck, sharp turns, the fire, etc.
 

Solfiner

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especially a lot of the newcomers in Smash 4 like Shulk, I'm still annoyed with Buster and Shield being incorrect
I mean pretty much the entire character gimmick is incorrect. Also Jump and Smash. At least he's in the game, so I can't complain. :p
 
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Morbi

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Another thing that bothers me when people talk about Sakurai is this notion that he's incredibly lazy or tone-deaf/out of touch when it comes to making character movesets. A lot of people went up in arms about this after Sakurai said he strives for characters to be accurate as much as possible. "But but, you gave this character this thing he doesn't do in his game!". People like this: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=140133763&postcount=60

There are a few characters I feel who aren't exactly up to snuff (Ganondorf, Wario, etc) but I honestly do think Sakurai did proper justice for most of the characters in Smash, especially a lot of the newcomers in Smash 4 like Mega Man, Ryu, Shulk, Villager, and such. He makes some elements up, but for the most part it usually fits the character in question. Luigi doesn't launch himself like a missile in Mario games, and yet it works because Luigi is weird, awkward, and yet amazing, as is Green Missile. :p

Even the characters who have entirely made up movesets still make sense within the context of their series. Star Fox characters fight like arwings, being able to shoot, boost forward, and reflect. Falcon is basically an F-Zero vehicle with legs: Fast, hits like a truck, sharp turns, the fire, etc.
I believe the most important aspect of that statement is "accurate as much as POSSIBLE." Sakurai should take some creative liberties for the sake of cohesiveness. I mean, Green Missile is amazing.
 

Solfiner

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While that's true, Speed is adapted better than it possibly could be, and I'm willing to forgive Jump and Smash. Just don't use Buster and Shield instead of Enchant and Armour
Yeah, I personally would have given him speed, armour and enchant. I still like the way he plays and was implemented, but I always like canon movesets, which is why I wish Ness could get a revamp. That's never happening though.
 

Dinoman96

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Yeah, I personally would have given him speed, armour and enchant. I still like the way he plays and was implemented, but I always like canon movesets, which is why I wish Ness could get a revamp. That's never happening though.
I like Ness's current moveset because it lets him represent all aspects of Earthbound, rather than just his abilities as a character. As Sakurai stated over here...

http://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/06/28/sakurais-famitsu-column-vol-457-abilities-unlike-any-other/

Although Robin doesn’t use dark magic in FE:A, I decided to assign it as his down special. It isn’t the first time I’ve given moves to a character that they don’t use in their respective game in order to capture certain aspects of the original title.
In Duck Hunt, the dog doesn't kick cans from Hogan's Ally, nor does he summon cowboys from Wild Gunman, but in the context of Smash, the character Duck Hunt is meant to be a personification of NES Zapper games. Kinda the same thing with Ness and Earthbound (and Lucas/Mother 3).
 

Cutie Gwen

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Yeah, I personally would have given him speed, armour and enchant. I still like the way he plays and was implemented, but I always like canon movesets, which is why I wish Ness could get a revamp. That's never happening though.
Don't forget Lucas, who plays differently in Mother 3 than he does in Smash! ****ing Lucas stealing Kumatora's moves and Rope Snake
 

BKupa666

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Another thing that bothers me when people talk about Sakurai is this notion that he's incredibly lazy or tone-deaf/out of touch when it comes to making character movesets. A lot of people went up in arms about this after Sakurai said he strives for characters to be accurate as much as possible. "But but, you gave this character this thing he doesn't do in his game!". People like this: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=140133763&postcount=60

There are a few characters I feel who aren't exactly up to snuff (Ganondorf, Wario, etc) but I honestly do think Sakurai did proper justice for most of the characters in Smash, especially a lot of the newcomers in Smash 4 like Mega Man, Ryu, Shulk, Villager, and such. He makes some elements up, but for the most part it usually fits the character in question. Luigi doesn't launch himself like a missile in Mario games, and yet it works because Luigi is weird, awkward, and yet amazing, as is Green Missile. :p

Even the characters who have entirely made up movesets still make sense within the context of their series. Star Fox characters fight like arwings, being able to shoot, boost forward, and reflect. Falcon is basically an F-Zero vehicle with legs: Fast, hits like a truck, sharp turns, the fire, etc.
Yeah, the laziness arguments are almost always wrong. Apathy may be more applicable where series like DK, Metroid and Wario Land are concerned, but I don't think anyone could look at the product we got and doubt the mountain of work that went into making it.

On the other hand, "the developer did it and he knows best " is a poor excuse for...anything, really. You can accept that Ridley is a boss in this game and the philosophies that went into that choice, for example, but for no reason should anyone feel pressure to "shut up and stop discussing" a character they feel passionately about, no matter how many less passionate individuals deem it "whining." Ridley may never become playable, but he definitely won't if his fans are harangued at whenever they poke their heads up to express support (which, post-SSB4, requires disagreeing with Sakurai's philosophy).
 

Wintropy

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Again, though, there does come a point at which it becomes repetitive to hear the same old routine being played ad nauseum.

I sympathise with Ridley fans, I am a Ridley fan, but when every message is a variation on the theme of "Sakurai's a hack who hates Ridley and fun", I just tune out.

Criticism is great for the consumer and the developer alike, it just has to be tempered with realistic expectations and a modicum of respect, self or otherwise.

God damn I don't mean to be needling you Kupa I just happened to come across your messages when you said 'em.
 

StormC

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I sympathise with Ridley fans, I am a Ridley fan, but when every message is a variation on the theme of "Sakurai's a hack who hates Ridley and fun", I just tune out.
This, 100%. Often it feels like people reduce legitimate criticisms to be had towards Sakurai/Smash to "RIDLEYRIDLEYRIDLEY"
 

BKupa666

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Nah, it's all good.

See, I haven't seen a ton of Ridley messages that overtly call Sakurai "a fun-hating hack" or whatever. The ones that call him stupid or lazy or whatever are bad and the people who make them should feel bad. But it seems like the mere mention of the character or the idea that this could be one area where Sakurai's attention to detail is misguided nowadays prompts ****posting about "LOL DEAD HORSE" or some other meme.

It's a character discussion thread each individual is consciously electing to read, and if the discussion is not always focused on the characters you personally want to see discussed, tough. I mean, you want to talk about whining? I see much more from the people "tired of Ridley" than his actual fans, who are mostly underground now, getting bopped down like moles whenever one ever pops up in here.
 

Ura

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Also we need more swordsmen, and Pokemon because Smash doesn't have that many.
You're way too lenient man! What we really need is more blue-haired FE Marth clone swordsmen because the community is upset about the overrepresentaion of DK and Metroid characters while series like FE (as well as Mario and PKMN) are way too underrepresented in the game. Just give us more Marth/Mario clones instead of giving us unique characters, that's what we want as a fanbase.

:troll:
 

Cutie Gwen

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You're way too lenient man! What we really need is more blue-haired FE Marth clone swordsmen because the community is upset about the overrepresentaion of DK and Metroid characters while series like FE (as well as Mario and PKMN) are way too underrepresented in the game. Just give us more Marth/Mario clones instead of giving us unique characters, that's what we want as a fanbase.

:troll:
Eirika and that blue-haired Anna! Total DLC shoe-ins!
 

Pakky

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You're way too lenient man! What we really need is more blue-haired FE Marth clone swordsmen because the community is upset about the overrepresentaion of DK and Metroid characters while series like FE (as well as Mario and PKMN) are way too underrepresented in the game. Just give us more Marth/Mario clones instead of giving us unique characters, that's what we want as a fanbase.

:troll:
LOL On a serious note though Roy is amazing. Marth looks like a bum in comparison, that range.
 

Yomi's Biggest Fan

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You're way too lenient man! What we really need is more blue-haired FE Marth clone swordsmen because the community is upset about the overrepresentaion of DK and Metroid characters while series like FE (as well as Mario and PKMN) are way too underrepresented in the game. Just give us more Marth/Mario clones instead of giving us unique characters, that's what we want as a fanbase.

:troll:
You fool, the only character that deserves the title of a shoo-in should be none other than Brash. And you know what really makes him angry, false misconceptions like these and those who have zero faith in the real Rarebare's inclusion. This sort of attitude really makes my want blow up in a fit of hair-raising rage.



On a side note, Brash's reaction can be best described as whiny Smash fans in a nutshell.
 

josh bones

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You're way too lenient man! What we really need is more blue-haired FE Marth clone swordsmen because the community is upset about the overrepresentaion of DK and Metroid characters while series like FE (as well as Mario and PKMN) are way too underrepresented in the game. Just give us more Marth/Mario clones instead of giving us unique characters, that's what we want as a fanbase.

:troll:
:warioc: is now a mario clone. :4myfriends: is now a Marth clone. :4jigglypuff: is back to a kirby clone. Please understand.
 

Wintropy

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Nah, it's all good.

See, I haven't seen a ton of Ridley messages that overtly call Sakurai "a fun-hating hack" or whatever. The ones that call him stupid or lazy or whatever are bad and the people who make them should feel bad. But it seems like the mere mention of the character or the idea that this could be one area where Sakurai's attention to detail is misguided nowadays prompts ****posting about "LOL DEAD HORSE" or some other meme.

It's a character discussion thread each individual is consciously electing to read, and if the discussion is not always focused on the characters you personally want to see discussed, tough. I mean, you want to talk about whining? I see much more from the people "tired of Ridley" than his actual fans, who are mostly underground now, getting bopped down like moles whenever one ever pops up in here.
I think you're misinterpreting my point.

My point is not "Ridley fans never shut up about Ridley and unanimously hate Sakurai", it's that there are other things to talk about besides Ridley. It just makes me sigh when people take anything and everything as an excuse to slip in a jab at Sakurai, as though we haven't heard it before.

It's not the sentiment that irks me, it's the obstinacy. Just, y'know, vary it from time to time.
 

BKupa666

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I think you're misinterpreting my point.

My point is not "Ridley fans never shut up about Ridley and unanimously hate Sakurai", it's that there are other things to talk about besides Ridley. It just makes me sigh when people take anything and everything as an excuse to slip in a jab at Sakurai, as though we haven't heard it before.

It's not the sentiment that irks me, it's the obstinacy. Just, y'know, vary it from time to time.
Yeah, I agree, variety is always good. Thing is, I've found most Ridley discussions (if you can call one or two supportive posts followed by SHADDUP a discussion) stem from topics we've also brought up many times...think "who did you vote for?" or "Rank the characters' chances." If we can branch out from those too, I think you'll see more freshness in general in terms of which characters get brought up and how.
 

StormC

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My completely selfish complaint is in the K. Rool thread it used to feel like we talked about Ridley as much as K. Rool. That's generally died down, though.
 
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