Character Discussion Thread

[Cutie Gwen]

Yes, but I have changed my way of predicting characters and his obscurity from his franchise makes him very big longshot.


I only put YL at a 25% chance, I also put King K. Rool at 25% too, which isn't saying much or likely.

You think an unpopular character is just a likely to be DLC as the most requested characcer. Here's where your first problem lies

 

[Curious Villager]

It was still pretty neat to see Sable make it in as an Assist Trophy though. I might make a high poly model of him for you one day if you like, Blue. ^^

 

[JayTheUnseen]

All my most wanteds are characters with no chance. For example, almost any Zelda character would make me happy. I don't think we're gonna get that.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

All my most wanteds are characters with no chance.

Fitting avi

 

[Lucimar]

Just wanted to address these two points.

And the whole mask gimmick's dead because, guess what, kinda can't do transformations in this game.

The Mask gimmick is not dead. It's completely doable. Most Young Link movesets I see nowadays have Young Link temporarily transform into his different forms for his special moves and then quickly transform back. I admit that Young Link has many hurdles but having a semi unique moveset is not one of them.

Did you see the ****storm that erupted when Roy got leaked? Young Link would cause the same reaction.

This did not stop plenty of people buying Roy anyway. Almost all of Roy's hate dissolved when he was finally shown in action with a more differentiated move set. Many Roy detractors grew to enjoy him or at the very least became indifferent to him I suspect the same would apply for Young Link too. Can apply to every character actually. Sometimes it takes seeing the character in action before changing somebody's mind on the character.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Blue, you are kinda being a hipster. When you think a clone that got replaced with a better version has more of a chance than one of the most requested Ballot fighters of all, that is so obviously being a hipster. What really makes Young Link any more likely than K.Rool outside of being easy to make? Why should Sakurai bring Young Link back when not many people would use him anyways, there's characters far more people want than him, thus more profitable, and he's already been replaced by a better version? Toon Link is a better Young Link, and since Toon Link's back, there's no reason to drag the inferior of the two back because he's "popular" right now thanks to MM3D.

Toon Link and Young Link are not the exact same thing. Conceptually that may be the case, but play style wise Toon Link just throws projectiles and repels the opponent with areals, while Young Link gets closer to hit some Neutral Areals, and Back Areals; using the projectiles to chain attacks together rather than spacing. Young Link plays more like Link than Toon Link, and if they declone him a bit like they did with Roy, he has a good chance of not even being a semi-clone when compared to Toon Link.

 

[Champ Gold]

The Mask gimmick is not dead. It's completely doable. Most Young Link movesets I see nowadays have Young Link temporarily transform into his different forms for his special moves and then quickly transform back. I admit that Young Link has many hurdles but having a semi unique moveset is not one of them.


This did not stop plenty of people buying Roy anyway. Almost all of Roy's hate dissolved when he was finally shown in action with a more differentiated move set. Many Roy detractors grew to enjoy him or at the very least became indifferent to him I suspect the same would apply for Young Link too. Can apply to every character actually. Sometimes it takes seeing the character in action before changing somebody's mind on the character.

Just wanted to address these two points.

I feel like Roy can get away with it because it's a different character with a similar moveset but YLink is still Link from looks and style and moveset and name

 

[BluePikmin11]

With a multitude of factors considered, yes, he has a reason to have that kind of chance that make up the fact that he's unpopular and the fact that he was replaced by Toon Link.
Let me keep it short:
-He's a veteran, an already established character in Smash that a number of fans want back. (Even if small)
-Has the notable and demanded MM3D to have Sakurai consider him again in the case he's not bringing back every veteran.
-Easier to make clone.
-Comes from one of the most popular franchises.
-Also is the main character of two of the most critically acclaimed Zelda titles ever.
You'll probably (but most likely) disagree with me, but I believe that they certainly help his chances a bit more than you think. He's not likely by any means, but he is in a better position to get in Smash now than he was before. We're probably going to have sales and replaced argument again and were fading away from the Isaac topic right now.

So I'll just end it with this (Because I'm busy playing Metroid Prime right now), I don't see Isaac as likely as people think, he has a shot but not a likely one unless Sakurai miraculously disregards every factor and only focuses on adding popular characters in the game for the sake of meeting demand (Or if theres a new Golden Sun), that's my stance on this discussion.

I feel like Roy can get away with it because it's a different character with a similar moveset but YLink is still Link from looks and style and moveset and name

The only difference is age and era he comes from, those alone shouldn't stop Sakurai from giving him new moves.

 

[False Sense]

No, that wasn't an argument against him (not the main flaw I mentioned earlier that hinders his chances), that was an example of what makes a character an excellent choice. Lots of factors (not just requests and viability) are considered when it comes to playability to be considered an excellent choice.

I am aware of that. I just didn't realize I had to list every one of Isaac's obvious traits that make him a good character choice.

As one of the most requested ballot candidates from what we can tell, I think he has a pretty good chance. He's popular, he obviously has tons of potential for a unique moveset and playstyle, and he doesn't have too much standing in his way. I'd certainly say he's one of the more likely candidates, and I'm hopeful for his inclusion.

 

[Lucimar]

Toon Link and Young Link are not the exact same thing. Conceptually that may be the case, but play style wise Toon Link just throws projectiles and repels the opponent with areals, while Young Link gets closer to hit some Neutral Areals, and Back Areals; using the projectiles to chain attacks together rather than spacing. Young Link plays more like Link than Toon Link, and if they declone him a bit like they did with Roy, he has a good chance of not even being a semi-clone when compared to Toon Link.

This is a good point. Toon Link's already more differentiated from Link than Lucina is from Marth and about the same as Roy I believe so if they differentiate Young Link from Link in a different direction, the 'Link trio' will already be more differentiated as a whole than the 'Marth trio'

 

[oZzIIgk]

If Sakurai wants to include weird characters nobody cares about, he should consider making them entirely broken. Redneck Revenge MC could just be totally overpowered, and then everyone would want to buy him.
also mostly unrelated, Illidan would be badass

 

[Deleted member]

Then clearly, Shrek, Spongebob, and Goku should be in Smash. it's good for business.

Don't forget

Though to be fair, he was a corporate mascot for Sega, which makes him less ridiculous than the other three.
However, he has yet to make an appearance on a Nintendo system outside of Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Let's see Isaac:
+Popular in ballot requests.
+Moveset Potential.
+The main character of a pretty popular franchise that got generally good critical reception with only the first game.
+Viable (Just like every other Nintendo character)

After that there's not much else in his favor.
-He didn't get picked in Brawl and in Smash 4 despite the merits of the franchise he had going for him. He could've easily added this unrepresented franchise in the base game like with Xenoblade, but he didn't two times in a row. It's makes me think that he's lacking in a few factors that would make him a likely choice for DLC. Like I said before, the ballot isn't going to do much for Sakurai to change his mind other than him seeing more (dedicated) demand.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

With a multitude of factors considered, yes, he has a reason to have that kind of chance that make up the fact that he's unpopular and the fact that he was replaced by Toon Link.
Let me keep it short:
-He's a veteran, an already established character in Smash that a number of fans want back. (Even if small)
-Has the notable and demanded MM3D to have Sakurai consider him again in the case he's not bringing back every veteran.
-Easier to make clone.
-Comes from one of the most popular franchises.
-Also is the main character of two of the most critically acclaimed Zelda titles ever.
You'll probably (but most likely) disagree with me, but I believe that they certainly help his chances a bit more than you think. He's not likely by any means, but he is in a better position to get in Smash now than he was before. We're probably going to have sales and replaced argument again and were fading away from the Isaac topic right now.

So I'll just end it with this (Because I'm busy playing Metroid Prime right now), I don't see Isaac as likely as people think, he has a shot but not a likely one unless Sakurai miraculously disregards every factor and only focuses on adding popular characters in the game for the sake of meeting demand (Or if theres a new Golden Sun), that's my stance on this discussion.


The only difference is age and era he comes from, those alone shouldn't stop Sakurai from giving him new moves.

A veteran who's very unpopular, especially compared to Toon Link
Sceptile has ORAS, Takamaru had a worldwide Murasame release
Which means he'll be a clone, what can you really do to make Yink different from Link and Tink?
Because Ridley's obviously playable
Welp, Lyn, Hector and Kamui confirmed then

Tell me, which factors does Isaac NOT have? Popularity? Plenty. Moveset potential? Infinite. Legacy? GS did very well

 

[False Sense]

After that there's not much else in his favor.
-He didn't get picked in Brawl and in Smash 4 despite the merits of the franchise he had going for him. He could've easily added this unrepresented franchise in the base game like with Xenoblade, but he didn't two times in a row. It's makes me think that he's lacking in a few factors that would make him a likely choice for DLC. Like I said before, the ballot isn't going to do much for Sakurai to change his mind other than him seeing more (dedicated) demand.

We really don't know what the reasoning for him not getting in is, as is the case with most unplayable characters. I don't think it's fair to use this vague reasoning as an excuse to say he isn't likely.

And again, we're dealing with the ballot and DLC now; if there's ever a time to appeal directly to the fans, this is it.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Let's see Isaac:
+Popular in ballot requests.
+Moveset Potential.
+The main character of a pretty popular franchise that got generally good critical reception with only the first game.
+Viable (Just like every other Nintendo character)

After that there's not much else in his favor.
-He didn't get picked in Brawl and in Smash 4 despite the merits of the franchise he had going for him. He could've easily added this unrepresented franchise in the base game like with Xenoblade, but he didn't two times in a row. It's makes me think that he's lacking in a few factors that would make him a likely choice for DLC. Like I said before, the ballot isn't going to do much for Sakurai to change his mind other than him seeing more (dedicated) demand.

Young Link didn't get in Brawl or Smash 4 either. I'm noticing a pattern here.

Don't forget

Though to be fair, he was a corporate mascot for Sega, which makes him less ridiculous than the other three.
However, he has yet to make an appearance on a Nintendo system outside of Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed.

But Kamen Rider is already playable

 

[Deleted member]

So let me get this straight.

Current discussion is on Young Link, a character who practically defines the word "redundant", and Isaac, a character I don't give two ****s about.

 

[BluePikmin11]

We really don't know what the reasoning for him not getting in is, as is the case with most unplayable characters. I don't think it's fair to use this vague reasoning as an excuse to say he isn't likely.

And again, we're dealing with the ballot and DLC now; if there's ever a time to appeal directly to the fans, this is it.

I think it's pretty fair, almost every Nintendo franchise added in Smash had at least a notable amount of merit within their franchise in the game. Some are very obvious like Villager and Wii Fit Trainer with their franchise being very popular, while others (despite being niche like Mother and Xenoblade) have game merit going for them. (or have retro status going for their inclusion)

Even back in the Smash Bros dojo mentions it:
http://www.smashbros.com/wii/en_us/gamemode/various/various33.html

"When they’re all lined up like this, it becomes obvious that there is roughly 6-year blank before and after Pikmin. While there have been big series since then like 'Animal Crossing,' 'Brain Age: Train Your Brain in Minutes a Day,' and 'Wii Sports' it does seem that coming up with a completely new character-driven series has gotten more difficult recently."

Never mentions Golden Sun as one of the big Nintendo franchises people claim it to be. This along with Sakurai deciding Isaac's stance being an AT in Brawl is enough to prove that he doesn't consider him worthy enough (Even with popularity and moveset potential provided) to be playable. He's not likely, even in the case of DLC.

He does have an ok shot, but he doesn't have more of a chance than that unless more notable news regarding GS comes up.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I think it's pretty fair, almost every Nintendo franchise added in Smash had at least a notable amount of merit within their franchise in the game. Some are very obvious like Villager and Wii Fit Trainer with their franchise being very popular, while others (despite being niche like Mother and Xenoblade) have game merit going for them. (or have retro status going for their inclusion)

Even back in the Smash Bros dojo mentions it:
http://www.smashbros.com/wii/en_us/gamemode/various/various33.html

Never mentions Golden Sun as one of the big Nintendo franchises people claim it to be. This along with Sakurai deciding Isaac's stance being an AT in Brawl is enough to prove that he doesn't consider him worthy enough (Even with popularity and moveset potential provided) to be playable. He's not likely, even in the case of DLC.

He does have an ok shot, but he doesn't have more of a chance than that unless more notable news regarding GS comes up.

Oh wait, I don't! Little Mac was an AT in Brawl, he's not considered worthy enough to be playable. OH WAIT. HE GOT IN BY FAN DEMAND

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

This gif is very disturbing... Time for me to leave.

 

[DustyPumpkin]

wait what's going on now?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

This gif is very disturbing... Time for me to leave.

I wouldn't blame you, it's from MiraiNikki, one of the most gruesome anime I've heard of. You don't need to guess what happens to dear old #9 here judging by the finger's motion

 

[BluePikmin11]

He's from a retro franchise though, he doesn't have to go through some of the hoops Nintendo newcomers go through

Oh wait, I don't! Little Mac was an AT in Brawl, he's not considered worthy enough to be playable.

But Isaac didn't make the cut from AT to playable in Smash 4, right? Even when Isaac's popularity was still going strong at the time and he still didn't get in the base game when it was a good time to do so. If he couldn't make it in despite the claimed merits he had in Smash 4, it's not going to change much when it comes to the ballot for DLC.

OH WAIT. HE GOT IN BY FAN DEMAND

Not only that though, he also got in with his retro status and the fact that he had a recently released Punch-Out game that did successful at the time. (Even becoming one of Nintendo Selects for the Wii before the Wii U took over)

 

[Cutie Gwen]

He's from a retro franchise though, he doesn't have to go through some of the hoops Nintendo newcomers go through



But Isaac didn't make the cut from AT to playable in Smash 4, right? Even when Isaac's popularity was still going strong at the time and he still didn't get in the base game when it was a good time to do so. If he couldn't make it in despite the claimed merits he had in Smash 4, it's not going to change much when it comes to the ballot for DLC.


Not only that though, he also got in with his retro status and the fact that he had a recently released Punch-Out game that did successful at the time. (Even becoming one of Nintendo Selects for the Wii before the Wii U took over)

Are you saying Young Link doesn't need to fit all those criteria? Yep, you're genuinely a ****ing hipster

Mewtwo wasn't in the basegame

Retro. 2009 release. Pick one

 

[BluePikmin11]

Are you saying Young Link doesn't need to fit all those criteria? Yep, you're genuinely a ****ing hipster

Mewtwo wasn't in the basegame

Retro. 2009 release. Pick one

He doesn't because he's already an established character in Smash whom Sakurai found feasible enough to be playable in Smash at the time.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I think it's pretty fair, almost every Nintendo franchise added in Smash had at least a notable amount of merit within their franchise in the game. Some are very obvious like Villager and Wii Fit Trainer with their franchise being very popular, while others (despite being niche like Mother and Xenoblade) have game merit going for them. (or have retro status going for their inclusion)

Even back in the Smash Bros dojo mentions it:
http://www.smashbros.com/wii/en_us/gamemode/various/various33.html

Never mentions Golden Sun as one of the big Nintendo franchises people claim it to be. This along with Sakurai deciding Isaac's stance being an AT in Brawl is enough to prove that he doesn't consider him worthy enough (Even with popularity and moveset potential provided) to be playable. He's not likely, even in the case of DLC.

He does have an ok shot, but he doesn't have more of a chance than that unless more notable news regarding GS comes up.

Point invalid.

Golden Sun was released before Pikmin.

Moreover, he changed his mind about Animal Crossing. You know better than to use stuff he already changed his mind about.

 

[Chandeelure]

OK, about the Isaac negative points...hmmm... let me try:

-Isaac is only popular for hardcore Smash fans, and don't say "But only hardcore Smash fans buy DLC", because that's not true. Casual fans are very important to Sakurai because they are more and that means more money... and for casuals Isaac is just magic anime guy number 745, who also doesn't have a recent game to promote, like Shulk.

-Golden Sun doesn't have new games and I doubt they will make a new one soon thanks to Mario Tennis.
This matters when you consider that all the newcomers are very iconic/important to Nintendo's history (the third parties, retros, Little Mac, etc) or recent (Palutena, Rosalina, Dark Pit, Shulk, Robin, Lucina, Greninja, etc). Isaac is not really iconic or recent.

-His AT was removed and he is probably not a pre-ballot character (because veterans), so the conclusion is that he was removed because he is not relevant anymore.

-The Golden Sun music sounds in random stages (Norfair and Palutena's Temple I think), the music sounding in other characters's stages is something negative IMO, for Isaac and also for Rhythm Heaven characters.

Isaac is like Ness, but Ness was included in the first game thanks to HAL bias, making him and his franchise more popular and a staple in the Smash series. But yeah, this is just my opinion, and if Isaac has a lot of ballot votes, it obviously can happen.
I think he has 40% chances.

Also remember that the ballot is a suggestion box, the characters with more votes like K.Rool are not a shoo-in, sadly.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

He doesn't because he's already an established character in Smash whom Sakurai found feasible enough to be playable in Smash at the time.

Which is why Toon Link outright replaced him. Also, if Little Mac's 2009 game is retro, if we use Isaac's older designs, the good ones, he'd be retro too. Hell, as Smash was released last year, Dark Dawn is retro now! Therefore he doesn't need criteria. Boom.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Point invalid.

Golden Sun was released before Pikmin.

Moreover, he changed his mind about Animal Crossing. You know better than to use stuff he already changed his mind about.

His logic would still apply to series before Pikmin, he even mentions before in the quote:

"When they’re all lined up like this, it becomes obvious that there is roughly 6-year blank before and after Pikmin. While there have been big series since then like 'Animal Crossing,' 'Brain Age: Train Your Brain in Minutes a Day,' and 'Wii Sports' it does seem that coming up with a completely new character-driven series has gotten more difficult recently."

The point was that he still continues to use big franchises for new franchise newcomers, and he didn't consider GS to be worthy enough for character representation and added him as an AT instead.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

You know what? **** it, I'm tired of arguing with someone who is 100% convinced popularity means nothing in a ****ing ballot where the company literally asked to send requests

 

[BluePikmin11]

Popularity is still going to matter, but not to a large extent you think it would be.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Popularity is still going to matter, but not to a large extent you think it would be.

I want Isaac more than ever now just to rub it in your face. Honestly, your predictions are mostly ****. ESPECIALLY DLC

 

[BluePikmin11]

We'll see then.
If I see Isaac playable in the game, I'll be pretty hyped for him and admit I was wrong.

 

[YoshiandToad]

I want Isaac more than ever now just to rub it in your face. Honestly, your predictions are mostly ****. ESPECIALLY DLC

That's unnecessary.

I also subscribe to Isaac being more likely than Young Link, since having three Links who all do the exact same thing would be utterly pointless filler, but you're getting a little personal there, chap.

I think Chandelure probably brought up the best negative points against Isaac. Discussing that is probably far more beneficial than you banging your head against a wall in irritation and due to arguing with Blue.

OK, about that Isaac negative points...hmmm... let me try:

-Isaac is only popular for hardcore Smash fans, and don't say "But only hardcore Smash fans buy DLC", because that's not true. Casual fans are very important to Sakurai because they are more and that means more money... and for casuals Isaac is just magic anime guy number 745, who also doesn't have a recent game to promote, like Shulk.

What is everyone's opinion on this particular point? It's true a lot of less hardcore Smash fans will be voting for Isaac, do you think they'll sway the ballot against him, or that enough people will nominate him to get Sakurai to notice at the very least?

 

[MoveMan1]

Personally, I think characters that don't require a new stage will be a priority. I don't believe there will be a shortage of stages after the n64 stuff, but not needing a stage is definitely a bonus.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

That's unnecessary.

I also subscribe to Isaac being more likely than Young Link, since having three Links who all do the exact same thing would be utterly pointless filler, but you're getting a little personal there, chap.

I think Chandelure probably brought up the best negative points against Isaac. Discussing that is probably far more beneficial than you banging your head against a wall in irritation and due to arguing with Blue.




What is everyone's opinion on this particular point? It's true a lot of less hardcore Smash fans will be voting for Isaac, do you think they'll sway the ballot against him, or that enough people will nominate him to get Sakurai to notice at the very least?

I remember only seeing positive reactions on Miiverse back in day

We'll see then.
If I see Isaac playable in the game, I'll be pretty hyped for him and admit I was wrong.

I don't want you to admit you're wrong. I want you to stop using 'could' for almost every single argument. Never 'Isaac IS not playable because Sakurai said something', not 'Isaac WAS never considered' but 'Sakurai COULD think Isaac isn't worthy' Saying 'could' as your argument doesn't work in a debate because the only way you'll be taken seriously is by showing logic, understanding and a lack of bias. That's why I believe GoldenYuitsuin is the best debater on the net, he pulls sources, he uses logic and is willing to prove people wrong even if he kind of agrees. It's like how I defended Inklings once

 

[BluePikmin11]

If the logic is popular characters only, then I'm not going to side with it. I already committed myself not to trust that logic since it's been proven wrong with multiple newcomers in multiple Smash games.

Never 'Isaac IS not playable because Sakurai said something', not 'Isaac WAS never considered' but 'Sakurai COULD think Isaac isn't worthy'

That's what I did.

You guys should more willing to defend characters who don't have as much requests too. :L
Even Golden does that from time to time, especially with Dark Pit. (he owned the support thread at the time)

 

[DustyPumpkin]

Wait.. So, he's trying to make it that Popularity is not important,
in a ballot,
where if a character is known enough and requested enough
makes them the popular choice

 

[Cutie Gwen]

If the logic is popular characters only, then I'm not going to side with it. I already committed myself not to trust that logic since it's been proven wrong with multiple newcomers in multiple Smash games.


That's what I did.

You guys should more willing to defend characters who don't have as much requests too. :L
Even Golden does that from time to time, especially with Dark Pit. (he owned the support thread at the time)

Why would you not

 

[BluePikmin11]

Wait.. So, he's trying to make it that Popularity is not important,
in a ballot,
where if a character is known enough and requested enough
makes them the popular choice

It's going to help consider them for playability, but after that, the other negative factors hurt his chances.