Character Discussion Thread

[CyberWolfBia]

What do you guys think we're gonna get first?

A) F-Zero Universe (WiiU racing title)

B) F-Zero Bounty Basher (Streets of Rage styled Beat-Em Up staring Captain Falcon)

You'll really make me choose?.. because I'm willing to post the little girl of "why not both?"

 

[ChikoLad]

We have a dog and a duck fighting together. The fun of Smash Bros. is that it takes ridiculous scenarios like "Wii Fit Trainer, Diddy Kong, Sonic The Hedgehog, Ganondorf, Charizard, Iggy Koopa, Samus Aran, and Shulk all on Hyrule Temple." Dismissing that because of a crossover fighter that skewers canon good by its very existence seems rather exclusionary to me.

Not that I'm particularly advocating Isabelle, but I think that goes for most characters.

But every single character has some kind of base to go off. The Dog and Duck represent shooting mechanics for example. Isabelle has nothing like that.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

But every single character has some kind of base to go off. The Dog and Duck represent shooting mechanics for example. Isabelle has nothing like that.

All of her attacks heal the opponent.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

*enters thread for first time since 58,000 B.C.*
*sees Isabelle discussion*

The way I see it, the entirety of the Animal Crossing series, from it's overall spirit, to the things that make it Animal Crossing, are perfectly represented in Villager. You have the planting, the digging, and even building your dream house. There's absolutely no need for another Animal Crossing fighter, especially Isabelle, unless they can bring something truly new and unique to the table, that actually has to do with Animal Crossing (Ex: No Tom Nook with Tanooki powers).

 

[Arcadenik]

Kinda want Tetra as a surprise announcement now... Maybe this is a sign that we'll finally see Toon Sheik in Smash after all this time.

Tetra is the only acceptable Toon Sheik.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

@ Swamp Sensei x @ Mega Bidoof anyone?

 

[Chandeelure]

Toon Sheik... that thing would be SSS Tier.

 

[N3ON]

It sold somewhere above 200k. It bombed hard in part from the wii u's absolutely horrendous start.

A 2nd game would probably sell a lot better because there are actual wii u owners now but the first one bombed harder than wonder black.

Not sure where you got that number (if it's from VGChartz you can pretty much just discard it), from what I've seen it hasn't even reached 100k.

A 2nd game isn't going to sell "a lot better" just by the virtue of the install base being like five million higher than it was back then. The Wii had a crazy install base but there were still titles that bombed pretty hard like S&P2, Captain Rainbow, Disaster Day of Crisis and the majority of non-casual third-party endeavors.

maybe they're doing a sequel by the good and old "desire to do so"?.. I mean, not all the games need to have more than it to justify themselves; .. maybe they had a sequel planned all the time, without anything related with the reception of the first one.

That's not really how it works though. When a new IP bombs as badly as W101 did, <100k badly, financially it just makes sense to abandon the IP. There's a reason movies that bomb don't get sequels. For some reason Nintendo must have confidence in W102 performing adequately (assuming it's real), but typically a game that did so poorly would never get a follow-up.

And yeah, the product being put out does need to be done so with the intention of at least breaking even for the company to authorize all the costs that go into it, businesses aren't going to needlessly put themselves in the red. Passion projects are one thing, but they're not going to be greenlit without some semblance at a chance of a return on the costs behind them, and W101's performance wouldn't suggest there'd be much confidence in continuing the series, so Nintendo must be up to something if this actually comes to fruition.

 

[JaidynReiman]

Retro Studios is also teasing showing up at Nintendo's E3, so I'd say they're handling Metroid.

Also I know Kamiya is a bit trollish but he isn't really when it comes to games he is hinting at.

Retro is teasing E3, not Metroid. I don't think they're doing Metroid at all, honestly. Not yet, anyway. Maybe it'll be one of their next projects, but their statements last year contradict the notion that they've been working on Metroid since they finished DKC: TF, so I don't buy it at all.


That said, I could be wrong now. BUT I DON'T THINK SO. (lol)


Ok, anyway, regardless of what their new project is, I DEFINITELY think they are announcing Diddy Kong Racing. In fact, that could be the only thing they announce. They may not even announce their new project post-TF at all.

 

[CyberWolfBia]

That's not really how it works though. When a new IP bombs as badly as W101 did, <100k badly, financially it just makes sense to abandon the IP. There's a reason movies that bomb don't get sequels. For some reason Nintendo must have confidence in W102 performing adequately (assuming it's real), but typically a game that did so poorly would never get a follow-up.

And yeah, the product being put out does need to be done so with the intention of at least breaking even for the company to authorize all the costs that go into it, businesses aren't going to needlessly put themselves in the red. Passion projects are one thing, but they're not going to be greenlit without some semblance at a chance of a return on the costs behind them, and W101's performance wouldn't suggest there'd be much confidence in continuing the series, so Nintendo must be up to something if this actually comes to fruition.

Oh, I know how game development and franchise continuation works;.. but I'm just hoping that they keep away that financial logic, for once. It's hard to believe that someone would do that nowadays, but when you think that Wonderful 101 also suffered with all the problems the Wii U had at launch, could make sense they would want to give the IP another go that the console has a more solid installed base. =P (It's not like comparing to Drill Dozer situation, as instance)
Well.. we live in a world where another Sonic Boom game was announced; :\/

 

[JaidynReiman]

I think Kamiya will definitely do another Wonderful 101 eventually. I just doubt its happening now, he'll probably go for something more financially viable first.

 

[CyberWolfBia]

and besides everything; Kamiya is the "hardcore rebel" of industry; if happens of a Wonderful 101 sequel be announced, will be because he wants and that's it.. =P

 

[BluePikmin11]

*enters thread for first time since 58,000 B.C.*
*sees Isabelle discussion*

The way I see it, the entirety of the Animal Crossing series, from it's overall spirit, to the things that make it Animal Crossing, are perfectly represented in Villager. You have the planting, the digging, and even building your dream house. There's absolutely no need for another Animal Crossing fighter, especially Isabelle, unless they can bring something truly new and unique to the table, that actually has to do with Animal Crossing (Ex: No Tom Nook with Tanooki powers).

If you want unique characteristics, both have pretty interesting characteristics to make a moveset from to get in the base game too. With Tom Nook, given the fact he's a merchant, he could use merchant tools (Like Anna) for battle. Isabelle having her moveset based on the "mayor factor" of Animal Crossing; Villager's moves are mainly based on the usual AC activities, while her moves could involve public work projects and more.
There's potential when you look at the characteristics and what they actually do in their respective roles in AC. There's plenty to offer even though it may not seem like it at first, like Rosalina with literally no combat based moves in the SMG games, but when looking at the characteristics of a cosmic princess, there's plenty of moves that could be used for a moveset.

 

[Arcadenik]

The thing about all of these retro reps so far is that they made an impact in some way back in the day. Our token retro this time was Duck Hunt Duo, because that's an extremely iconic game and it basically kickstarted the shooter genre, and remains one of the best selling shooters of all time. THAT'S impact an popularity.

A few people getting hopeful and scraping the bottom of the barrel because they HAVE to anticipate someone, is not popularity. If people genuinely played Takamaru's games and want him on that basis, that's fine, but he's definitely one of those characters people latched on to for no particular reason, outside of Japan.

Now that we have all the iconic retro/revived Nintendo video game characters in Smash arguably there really isn't any iconic retro Nintendo video game characters left to add for SSB5... and that's why I am personally hoping for Captain N to be the token retro character for SSB5... he may be a cartoon character but he is a NINTENDO cartoon character... and he was pretty popular with the Nintendo fans who watched the Mario, Zelda, and Captain N cartoons from 1989 to 1991. I truly believe Captain N will make the gaming social media board the hype train just like what's happened when Duck Hunt Dog was leaked/confirmed.

I don't think someone as famous and recognizable as Captain N would be scrapping the bottom of the barrel... but obscure nobodies like Sheriff, Diskun, Daitoryo, etc. are. Takamaru may be an obscure nobody here in the West but at least he's got a cult following in Japan.

 

[StormC]

Yeah, Takamaru is probably the only retro character left to add that makes sense. Even by retro standards, most of the other choices are obscure (Lip, Sukapon, Muddy Mole).

 

[Starcutter]

We could have the excitebiker for a retro rep I guess.

Also hey guys haven't seen you in a while!

Remember me?

 

[Burruni]

We could have the excitebiker for a retro rep I guess.

Also hey guys haven't seen you in a while!

Remember me?

The name seems a little familiar.
But... excitebiker. Part of me feels like what Sakurai had in mind for that character ironically got moved over to .

That's the only reason I have for the 3rd most requested newcomer for Melee to have a moveset and general representation either pulled out of thin air or based on a spin-off series that came out AFTER Melee.

 

[StormC]

The name seems a little familiar.
But... excitebiker. Part of me feels like what Sakurai had in mind for that character ironically got moved over to .

That's the only reason I have for the 3rd most requested newcomer for Melee to have a moveset and general representation either pulled out of thin air or based on a spin-off series that came out AFTER Melee.

Didn't Sakurai rule out Excitebiker because he wanted to keep him on the bike at all times but couldn't see how it'd work?

 

[Burruni]

Didn't Sakurai rule out Excitebiker because he wanted to keep him on the bike at all times but couldn't see how it'd work?

Something along those lines. Saying a joke like "I'd have to install ramps onto all the stages for him to jump."

Thus, I conclude that is the true reason that Wario's actual protagonist games are almost completely ignored for Smash.

He's just how Sakurai embodied Excitebiker.

 

[Starcutter]

*enters thread for first time since 58,000 B.C.*
*sees Isabelle discussion*

The way I see it, the entirety of the Animal Crossing series, from it's overall spirit, to the things that make it Animal Crossing, are perfectly represented in Villager. You have the planting, the digging, and even building your dream house. There's absolutely no need for another Animal Crossing fighter, especially Isabelle, unless they can bring something truly new and unique to the table, that actually has to do with Animal Crossing (Ex: No Tom Nook with Tanooki powers).

I read this earlier with a lot of disagreement, but I didn't realize it was you. hey by the way

Hey, did you know that it's possible for a character to get in even if their playstyle isnt the most unique? Woah look at that there's a tenth of the cast with unoriginal movesets, would you look at that?

Also Villager doesn't exactly cover everything in new leaf. He covers what was in the first few games, but not much more. There's not much of his mayoral duties in smash, like getting people to sign petitions, or building public works projects (closest to that is the side b).

Point I'm trying to make here is that if they REALLY wanted to make Isabelle playable they could, even as a villager clone.

Didn't mean to write so much oops

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

We could have the excitebiker for a retro rep I guess.

Also hey guys haven't seen you in a while!

Remember me?

Did you vote for the Stork in the fighter ballot?

 

[Johnknight1]

*comes in*
Hey guys, what's goin-...
*sees sales charts, "reps" discussion, and franchise validity discussions*
...oh.

...I miss measuring characters based on the merits of what they'd bring to the gameplay of the game, rather than the outside contexts.

(not condemning anyone who says that, but remember, we play the game at the end of the day)

If you wanna convince anyone of your argument, use gameplay examples or share your vision of what said character(s) would look like if they were playable. Just be sure to keep it in contexts we can understand. Make us understand the character, and want this character specifically to play as or against this character.

That is a lot more effective than listing off "series relevancy," "sales of the series," "franchise importance," or "importance to the series."

Although please, we don't need to discuss the 49th most important Zelda character. Sorry Groose fans.

Didn't Sakurai rule out Excitebiker because he wanted to keep him on the bike at all times but couldn't see how it'd work?

In Melee, yes.

In Brawl he ruled out Miis, Pac-Man, and the Villager, and look how that turned out in Smash 4. Things can change.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

*comes in*
Hey guys, what's goin-...
*sees sales charts, "reps" discussion, and franchise validity discussions*
...oh.

...I miss measuring characters based on the merits of what they'd bring to the gameplay of the game, rather than the outside contexts.

(not condemning anyone who says that, but remember, we play the game at the end of the day)

If you wanna convince anyone of your argument, use gameplay examples or share your vision of what said character(s) would look like if they were playable. Just be sure to keep it in contexts we can understand. Make us understand the character, and want this character specifically to play as or against this character.

That is a lot more effective than listing off "series relevancy," "sales of the series," "franchise importance," or "importance to the series."

Although please, we don't need to discuss the 49th most important Zelda character. Sorry Groose fans.

In Melee, yes.

In Brawl he ruled out Miis, Pac-Man, and the Villager, and look how that turned out in Smash 4. Things can change.

It's a ghost!

 

[JaidynReiman]

That is a lot more effective than listing off "series relevancy," "sales of the series," "franchise importance," or "importance to the series."

That's true, but at the same time, those do help for comparisons when the gameplay argument has already been discussed.

 

[StormC]

Also, any character can be a unique fighter. We've seen Wii Fit Trainer and Villager turn into two of the most unique fighters in Smash history. A character has more to offer than their unique gameplay if you're trying to make a plea as to why that character should be in a crossover between Nintendo all-stars.

 

[Johnknight1]

It's a ghost!

Swamp it's nearly summer and it doesn't rain in NorCal (except today), so I can't be that white anymore.

But hi.

That's true, but at the same time, those do help for comparisons when the gameplay argument has already been discussed.

For comparisons or as part of a greater discussion yeah, there's a place for them, but overall they're pretty boring to talk about.

Such topics makes federal income tax accounting sound exciting. And trust me, that is the opposite of exciting.

Really though, the only reason we should talk "series popularity" is when discussing third party franchises given that Fire Emblem has had 5 playable characters, Star Fox has had 3, and the Donkey Kong/Mario connected series (which includes Mario, Yoshi, DK and Wario) has 11 playable characters (and 7 alternate characters).

As for "relevance to the series," like I said, any major player in a series should be brought up. Obviously with a series like Pokemon or even Mario that's so gigantically popular and big that's a little muddy though.

 

[N3ON]

*comes in*
Hey guys, what's goin-...
*sees sales charts, "reps" discussion, and franchise validity discussions*
...oh.

...I miss measuring characters based on the merits of what they'd bring to the gameplay of the game, rather than the outside contexts.

(not condemning anyone who says that, but remember, we play the game at the end of the day)

If you wanna convince anyone of your argument, use gameplay examples or share your vision of what said character(s) would look like if they were playable. Just be sure to keep it in contexts we can understand. Make us understand the character, and want this character specifically to play as or against this character.

That is a lot more effective than listing off "series relevancy," "sales of the series," "franchise importance," or "importance to the series."

Although please, we don't need to discuss the 49th most important Zelda character. Sorry Groose fans.

We weren't talking about sales in reference to Smash inclusion, it was sales in reference to the continuation of a series.

Also, talking about gameplay is nice and all... but more people get won over when they believe the character in question actually has a decent shot at inclusion, not simply because they'd have an interesting playstyle. There are hundreds of characters with potentially interesting playstyles, but there certainly aren't hundreds of potential characters with notable Smash fanbases...

People would rather be convinced with "K. Rool is the most popular candidate" and "DK is woefully underrepresented" and even "moar villains!!" than "K. Rool could use a blunderbuss and crown throws and shockwaves"...

 

[StormC]

Really though, the only reason we should talk "series popularity" is when discussing third party franchises given that Fire Emblem has had 5 playable characters, Star Fox has had 3, and the Donkey Kong/Mario connected series (which includes Mario, Yoshi, DK and Wario) has 11 playable characters (and 7 alternate characters).

So what, it's open season now and any Nintendo character goes because they could be an interesting fighter? I can't accept that.

 

[Berserker.]

*comes in*
Hey guys, what's goin-...
*sees sales charts, "reps" discussion, and franchise validity discussions*
...oh.

...I miss measuring characters based on the merits of what they'd bring to the gameplay of the game, rather than the outside contexts.

The one time I decide to randomly go to this thread and I bump into you. What a coincidence.

 

[Johnknight1]

Also, talking about gameplay is nice and all... but more people get won over when they believe the character in question actually has a decent shot at inclusion, not simply because they'd have an interesting playstyle. There are hundreds of characters with potentially interesting playstyles, but there certainly aren't hundreds of potential characters with notable Smash fanbases...

People would rather be convinced with "K. Rool is the most popular candidate" and "DK is woefully underrepresented" and even "moar villains!!" than "K. Rool could use a blunderbuss and crown throws and shockwaves"...

True, but if you reasonably deduct any potential additions to the roster to all the candidates with any realistic shot, there won't be "hundreds of characters" there will be "two to five dozen characters."

Of course, I didn't say deducing to that amount of characters was boring or worthless or that we shouldn't talk about it...

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I've been Wonder-ing. Why isn't Wonder Red an AT? His game bombed financially, but considering Robin was chosen before Awakening released and saved the series, if Awakening bombed, Robin would be in regardless.

 

[StormC]

Fire Emblem has a precedent for Smash. Besides, he isn't the only notable recent Nintendo character excluded from a role.

 

[Johnknight1]

The one time I decide to randomly go to this thread and I bump into you. What a coincidence.

"What a terrible night knight for a curse."

So what, it's open season now and any Nintendo character goes because they could be an interesting fighter? I can't accept that.

Actually no it isn't. It's like this: any major character in any Nintendo franchise that hasn't been confirmed or deconfirmed (the latter of which can be flimsy: see the multiple Toads/Ridley's arguments, the alt outfit argument, etc) still has something of a shot. A select few of these characters have a reasonable shot.

In regards to Fire Emblem... Fire Emblem is an odd series. It introduces dozens of new characters nearly every game, with at least one new main character in every game except the remakes. It's not a series like Mario where you play as Mario every time and fight Bowser nearly every time.

With Roy all but confirmed thanks to the 1.06 patch file discoveries revealing that, there's not a lot left for the series. So far in Smash, we've only gotten main characters (aka Lords and Tacticians/Avatars) as playable characters, and unless that trend breaks (which if it does, it'll probably be Tiki), this is how it is:
Marth is the main protagonist of Fire Emblem 1, 3, 11, and 12.
Roy is the main protagonist of Fire Emblem 6.
Ike is the main protagonist of Fire Emblem 9 and 10.
Robin and Lucina are 2 of the 3 main protagonists of Fire Emblem 13 (the other is Chrom, who is in Robin's Final Smash).

That leaves the main protagonist(s) of Fire Emblem 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, and 14 left.

Of the main characters in those games, the only characters interesting and popular enough that would likely be considered are Sigurd (FE4) and Hector (FE7). It seems with those 2 characters "their time has passed" as we only get veteran Fire Emblem characters and newer Fire Emblem characters as playable characters in Smash games.

That leaves the soon to be released Fire Emblem 14. The entire plot revolves around the avatar character (and their choice). So yeah, that means the Avatar character (like Robin) in Fire Emblem 14 is the most likely candidate. Even the, the Avatar of both sexes could just be an alternate outfit for Robin, held off for a future Smash game, or like the Fire Emblem 7 and 8 characters in between Melee's and Brawl's development periods, "passed over" for newer Fire Emblem game protagonists.

 

[Croph]

*comes in*
Hey guys, what's goin-...
*sees sales charts, "reps" discussion, and franchise validity discussions*
...oh.

...I miss measuring characters based on the merits of what they'd bring to the gameplay of the game, rather than the outside contexts.

(not condemning anyone who says that, but remember, we play the game at the end of the day)

If you wanna convince anyone of your argument, use gameplay examples or share your vision of what said character(s) would look like if they were playable. Just be sure to keep it in contexts we can understand. Make us understand the character, and want this character specifically to play as or against this character.

That is a lot more effective than listing off "series relevancy," "sales of the series," "franchise importance," or "importance to the series."

Although please, we don't need to discuss the 49th most important Zelda character. Sorry Groose fans.

In Melee, yes.

In Brawl he ruled out Miis, Pac-Man, and the Villager, and look how that turned out in Smash 4. Things can change.

Omg it's you

If/when Roy's confirmed, you gonna come party with me and the Bois?

It's weird, I didn't really care about looking at characters from a gameplay perspective and coming up with such arguments in the beginning. But, the more I got into Smash (and I mean seriously), the more I started to care. But gameplay is on the list of Sakurai's credentials, and it's important as well. And it's not something Sakurai would quickly look over and disregard.

Some people can't be won over by saying, "Hey this character is very popular and totally deserves to get in. So support him today!" but have to be approached with a gameplay perspective in mind. And that's fine. We all have different mindsets and things that interest us.

What I'm trying to get at... I don't even know... it's way too late here, can't think lol.

 

[Baskerville]

In my opinion, if you're trying to get people to support a character they either never knew or never cared for about by using popularity, or representation and such as a reason, that probably won't sway a lot of people. Interesting gameplay concepts for said characters can do a lot, since it brings out a lot of the creative flair those characters have in their games.

 

[Johnknight1]

Omg it's you

If/when Roy's confirmed, you gonna come party with me and the Bois?

Bruh we're gonna have a Skype party. Just be sure to practice your "Surprised" reaction for Roy and Ryu. Because. You Know. It's supposed to be a "surprise!"

It's weird, I didn't really care about looking at characters from a gameplay perspective and coming up with such arguments in the beginning. But, the more I got into Smash (and I mean seriously), the more I started to care. But gameplay is on the list of Sakurai's credentials, and it's important as well. And it's not something Sakurai would quickly look over and disregard.

I think it was Disfunk who once said "come for the characters, stay for the gameplay" and that is very true. Nobody would give much of a crap about 64 for more than 3 hours if the gameplay was garbage. Eventually, the novelty of the "Nintendo characters beating each other" would wear off, just like it did for similar crossovers like Shrek Super Slam, Cartoon Network Super Punch, and TMNT Smash Up.

And character design goes a lonnnnng way in achieving that. In Smash for instance, few people think "that doesn't feel like Mario or Luigi" because they've somewhat loosely emulated their attacks, movement, and jumping. The same applies for other characters from platforming games. Even for characters like Pikachu, Fox, and Captain Falcon, they play and feel like what you imagine they would play like. Pikachu of course being the quick electric rodent, Fox using essentially super speed moves and Arwing-esk attacks, and Captain Falcon dishing out offense and high octane speed with style. Most of the characters move and attack and feel like they should.

There's a big draw on that, and I think people take it for granted so much that they don't realize how great it is. If you play other crossover games that are bad (like TMNT Smash Up or Cartoon Network Super Punch) and realize how lame characters feel compared to what they should, you'll realize how important that is. You tend to appreciate the great character designs in crossovers like Smash, Marvel vs. Capcom, and Capcom vs. SNK can be a lot of the time.

 

[YoshiandToad]

We could have the excitebiker for a retro rep I guess.

Also hey guys haven't seen you in a while!

Remember me?

Hey I remember you. Where have you Bee-n?

Very odd you, Mega Bidoof, Berserker and Johnknight all decided to come back at the same exact time though.

I feel like there's some smashboards conspiracy none of us are privvy too. Either that or with E3 coming up you've decided to come see what us lower mortals are upto.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

It's a ghost!

You spelled "g-g-g-g-g-g-g-ghooooooost!" wrong.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Tetra is the only acceptable Toon Sheik.

Impa counts as a "Toon Sheik" to, right?

 

[Arcadenik]

Impa counts as a "Toon Sheik" to, right?

No... but Fat Impa counts.