Character Discussion Thread

[Burruni]

Game physics and despite Brawl being casual it hurt more than it helped

Here's mine
Brawl was the best expansion to the roster we've seen and gave us some of the best newcomers in terms of the span and scope. That's my opinion. Do I prefer P:M over Brawl? Yes. But that's namely over making Jiggly and Ganon VIABLE to some extent and the changes to wario.

 

[Zzuxon]

A director that completely ignores popularity starts off shooting themself in the foot.
with a shotgun.

Games are sold to fans. Making a game not meant to appease fans isnt going to go very well. Thankfully sakurai does take it into account so everything is good.

Wjat was the excuse for no f-zero? That the wii u controller wasny compatible? Absurd and either clearly a made up excuse or whoever it was is a bit looney when other racers exist on the console

My philosophy would produce rosters that are much more appealing to fans than what we get. If I were making smash since the beginning, Ridley, K. Rool, Villager, Toad, Ray and Andy would have been in brawl. Charizard would have been in smash 64. I could go on. Heck, I'l show you. Here is what smash 4 would look like if I had directed smash since the beginning:

 

[A Distant Demon]

Game physics and despite Brawl being casual it hurt more than it helped

Didnt brawl sell significantly more than melee?

 

[Champ Gold]

Sales aren't everything folks. I don't hate Brawl but those problems are so glaring it's hard to come back to.

I'm not saying it's bad but damn man those changes, those changes


:I WAS NERFED ALL THE WAY TO BEING STRAIGHT TERRIBLE SO TELL ME IF I ASKED FOR IT, DAMN IT.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Yeah, Duck Hunt for being a very successful game representing back in the old days representing important hardware (and uniqueness, you don't need to bring that up), that's what R.O.B, Mr. Game and Watch, and DH have in common, the same would go for Jumpman too.


It's mostly because the idea wasn't brought up until months ago.

That could change when Smash 5 comes around especially when villain reason is being considered as a valuable one to many people nowadays, especially when every character with a pre-defined role will gain a level of popularity (or bandwagon) again since they have unconfirmed roles in Smash 5, just like Little Mac.


Yeah, I guess I have a flaw in this.
Sakurai will probably just go by who's the newest protagonist like Pokemon (except Pokemon are specifically chosen), regardless of success.


I don't see people stopping their retro support, as long as retro additions keep happening with Sakurai. It's probably going to be a continuing trend that will spread across the internet like the need for villains to keep their support strong. (Just an example)


I'm sure Sakurai has reviewed every possible iconic RH character imaginable. Unless there's a new minigame that ends up taking over the Chorus Kids as the most iconic, he'll likely keep the Chorus Kids idea.


I have less bias for Isaac nowadays and I don't think I'll change his stance on him yet until there happens to be some last minute large amount of demand for Golden Sun out of nowhere. Camelot has made it clear that if a GS4 was to happen, they would have to be a large amount of demand for the game to happen, there's not much of it, most demand is actually towards Isaac happening in Smash instead.

And maybe I've been too hard on K. Rool. Retro has been supporting the idea of Kremlings returning, I guess I'm just more concerned of it actually happening first. :L


Sakurai should be aware of the trend that characters with roles already in Smash 4 are probably going be low, that's why I think he's going to do another poll to see if any demand for certain characters has changed over the past years.

Jumpman is always, ALWAYS called Mario by the majority of fans
Ridley was brought up shortly after Brawl and I'm pretty sure Sakurai mentioned noticing K.Rool as a suggestion, not to mention Little Mac was always popular in the west
Except we only have about 2 villains and that the argument to stop supporting because retro doesn't exist
If Sakurai would take his sweet time to look at EVERY RH character we'd have Dark Samus or the Hunters back in Brawl
I've seen loads of demand for GS4, you aren't looking in the right places
Sakurai can't be predicted. Everyone who claims otherwise is a moron

Sales aren't everything folks. I don't hate Brawl but those problems are so glaring it's hard to come back to.

I'm not saying it's bad but damn man those changes, those changes


:I WAS NERFED ALL THE WAY TO BEING STRAIGHT TERRIBLE SO TELL ME IF I ASKED FOR IT, DAMN IT.

FOR THE THIRD TIME, BRAWL ALSO HAD HIGHER RATINGS!
As if Melee was perfectly balanced, Melee and Brawl are like MVC2 and MVC3, both have balance issues

 

[Burruni]

Sales aren't everything folks. I don't hate Brawl but those problems are so glaring it's hard to come back to.

I'm not saying it's bad but damn man those changes, those changes


:I WAS NERFED ALL THE WAY TO BEING STRAIGHT TERRIBLE SO TELL ME IF I ASKED FOR IT, DAMN IT.

Oh that's cute.

At least you got in!

EVERYONE HATED ME FOR NOT BEING ASKED FOR

 

[A Distant Demon]

Sales aren't everything folks. I don't hate Brawl but those problems are so glaring it's hard to come back to.

I'm not saying it's bad but damn man those changes, those changes


:I WAS NERFED ALL THE WAY TO BEING STRAIGHT TERRIBLE SO TELL ME IF I ASKED FOR IT, DAMN IT.

For a company working for a profit in which the largest fanbase is happy yeah it pretty much is.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Jumpman is always, ALWAYS called Mario by the majority of fans

Not to Sakurai though.

Ridley was brought up shortly after Brawl and I'm pretty sure Sakurai mentioned noticing K.Rool as a suggestion, not to mention Little Mac was always popular in the west

Ridley support noticeably started back in Melee's reveal trailer when Ridley was shown in the intro.
Although he likely saw K. Rool as a suggestion, I don't think he actually commented on K. Rool yet.
And if it weren't for the new game, the popularity for Mac would not have been so big.

If Sakurai would take his sweet time to look at EVERY RH character we'd have Dark Samus or the Hunters back in Brawl

No he wouldn't, he would evaluate on which character best represents the series as a whole if the franchise has no specific main character to use, and he found that CK were the perfect suggestion.

I've seen loads of demand for GS4, you aren't looking in the right places

I would be hearing as common as Operation Rainfall back then when Xenoblade was demanded to be brought to the west and Mother 3 too.

Sakurai can't be predicted. Everyone who claims otherwise is a moron

I can try my best to though. If I end up being wrong on certain things, I'll just change my mindset and move on from it. I have no reason to call myself a moron over a video game.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Not to Sakurai though.



Ridley support noticeably started back in Melee's reveal trailer when Ridley was shown in the intro.
Although he likely saw K. Rool as a suggestion, I don't think he actually commented on K. Rool yet.
And if it weren't for the new game, the popularity for Mac would not have been so big.


No he wouldn't, he would evaluate on which character best represents the series as a whole if the franchise has no specific main character to use, and he found that CK were the perfect suggestion.


I would be hearing as common as Operation Rainfall back then when Xenoblade was demanded to be brought to the west and Mother 3 too.


I can try my best to though. If I end up being wrong on certain things, I'll just change my mindset and move on from it. I have no reason to call myself a moron over a video game.

Dr. MARIO. Young LINK, not to mention he has to call them by different names than the original in an official game
Judging by the Brawl Ridley stuff, Sakurai's wording made it sound like he never considered making Ridley playable, and I outright said K.Rool was only a suggestion. His Melee trophy said he has loads of fans, can't be the Kremlings as they didn't listen to him in DKC3 and K.Rool being a tyrant in 64. Little Mac was popular BEFORE the Wii game, not to mention I can say the same about RH and Kawashima.
Which is why Chorus Kids aren't playable, nor are they the main characters, nor were they in the first game iirc. By this logic Anna would be in Melee instead of Marth
Every GS related video or E3 releted video I've seen, I found GS4 demand. Xenoblade and Mother 3 were outright stated to not get American/Western releases. GS4 did not. You're comparing 2 different things
Trying leads to failure more often than not. If it wasn't for leaks, who'd have predicted G&W, ROB, DHD and WFT?

 

[Deleted member]

I know Ridley won't get in for a long time, used that as an example, because the argument DOES have some holes. Accuracy to the character and wing stuff. Blue's saying his arguments are logical because he made the arguments

How is there holes in the "wing stuff"?
He said that among other things that would need to be altered about Ridley to make Ridley work as a balanced fighter, his wings would need to be smaller.
Are you honestly saying he's wrong here?
Even if Ridley is closer to the playable characters' scales such as this image (though it's actually Bowser that was scaled up to be closer to Ridley), those wings clearly have some adjustments that need to be made:

Spoiler

And how are there holes in him stating that providing accurate portrayals of characters is something he wants to pay ample attention to?
All of the characters in Smash are made as close to the source material as possible in how they appear. Ridley is no exception here. While aesthetic alterations may be made (or some not-so aesthetic like Wolf's claws or Zamus' Jet Boots), none of the characters have had to have aspects drastically reduced or taken away solely to work as a balanced fighter like what would be required for Ridley.

 

[POKEMANSPIKA]

I don't know why but I really want the character from Harvest Moon in Smash. Might just be because I grew up with A Wonderful Life.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

How is there holes in the "wing stuff"?
He said that among other things that would need to be altered about Ridley to make Ridley work as a balanced fighter, his wings would need to be smaller.
Are you honestly saying he's wrong here?
Even if Ridley is closer to the playable characters' scales such as this image (though it's actually Bowser that was scaled up to be closer to Ridley), those wings clearly have some adjustments that need to be made:

Spoiler

And how are there holes in him stating that providing accurate portrayals of characters is something he wants to pay ample attention to?
All of the characters in Smash are made as close to the source material as possible in how they appear. Ridley is no exception here. While aesthetic alterations may be made (or some not-so aesthetic like Wolf's claws or Zamus' Jet Boots), none of the characters have had to have aspects drastically reduced or taken away solely to work as a balanced fighter like what would be required for Ridley.

About wings. Ridley's wings have been small in every 2D game outside of Smash U. Sakurai said the wings were a reason to exclude him. Ridley does NOT join sides, Team Jiggle Physics did this right in their fighting game. "Ridley wouldn't be able to fly freely anymore" Didn't stop Kirby, Dedede, Meta Knight, Dark Pit, Bowser Jr and Charizard, did it?

 

[BluePikmin11]

Which is why Chorus Kids aren't playable, nor are they the main characters, nor were they in the first game iirc. By this logic Anna would be in Melee instead of Marth

Then why were they planned anyway, doesn't that ruin your point? He didn't really care if they weren't the main character at all.

Every GS related video or E3 releted video I've seen, I found GS4 demand. Xenoblade and Mother 3 were outright stated to not get American/Western releases. GS4 did not. You're comparing 2 different things

I know, but I am specifically talking about demand here, and demand is decent, but not to the point where it's extremely noticeable in loads of gaming websites, like people demanding a new F-Zero, Star Fox, and Metroid.

Trying leads to failure more often than not. If it wasn't for leaks, who'd have predicted G&W, ROB, DHD and WFT?

I have fun predicting even though I get some things wrong, if Sakurai were to just add popular newcomers, I would've not continued speculation because the line-up would be predictable and not as fun to predict.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Then why were they planned anyway, doesn't that ruin your point? He didn't really care if they weren't the main character at all.


I know, but I am specifically talking about demand here, and demand is decent, but not to the point where it's extremely noticeable in loads of gaming websites, like people demanding a new F-Zero, Star Fox, and Metroid.

I have fun predicting even though I get some things wrong, if Sakurai were to just add popular newcomers, I would've not continued speculation because the line-up would be predictable and not as fun to predict.

Except that we don't know how early development the Gematsu stuff is. Judging by the orde of the files Rosalina, a character who WASN'T in the Gematsu leak, was the first character worked on. Sakurai could easily think "Yeah, these guys aren't good"
GS isn't as big nor is it as popular as those franchises. Not a fair comparison
Not saying we should have just popular characters without the oddball now and then, but every roster you make prioritizes characters who are oddballs more than anything and rarely has popular characters

 

[XStarWarriorX]

Sales aren't everything folks. I don't hate Brawl but those problems are so glaring it's hard to come back to.

I'm not saying it's bad but damn man those changes, those changes


:I WAS NERFED ALL THE WAY TO BEING STRAIGHT TERRIBLE SO TELL ME IF I ASKED FOR IT, DAMN IT.

The only bad change was the tripping and the overall defensiveness, Brawl had way more tech then smash4 can ever hope to have, and this is coming from a melee fan....and my main is the worst character in smash history, and I loved the additions more than brawls... yep.

Even so, brawl was an okay game in its own right, its just so damn defensive, kinda like this one but hey its got kewl characters. and thats what people want, thats what sells.

Though you know, im still waiting for the "pick your own style of smash" for smash 5. also mk was nerfed yes but he isnt that bad guys.

Then why were they planned anyway, doesn't that ruin your point? He didn't really care if they weren't the main character at all.

I know, but I am specifically talking about demand here, and demand is decent, but not to the point where it's extremely noticeable in loads of gaming websites, like people demanding a new F-Zero, Star Fox, and Metroid.

I have fun predicting even though I get some things wrong, if Sakurai were to just add popular newcomers, I would've not continued speculation because the line-up would be predictable and not as fun to predict.

Uh blue you know sakurai doesnt do rosters to be unpredictable, he does it to suit his vision of how his roster should be. (also i've seen hella alot of demand for GS and MOTHER especially mother, they're cultists I tell you!) you should quit while your ahead man, I like you so I dont wanna see you get teared up, even I can see holes in your arguments.

Look what you guize made me do, i wanted to lurk more. but this back and forth intrigues me.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Except that we don't know how early development the Gematsu stuff is. Judging by the orde of the files Rosalina, a character who WASN'T in the Gematsu leak, was the first character worked on. Sakurai could easily think "Yeah, these guys aren't good"

Not really, especially when Chorus Kids have more unique characteristics than Chrom himself as an ordinary swordsman to be playable.

Not saying we should have just popular characters without the oddball now and then, but every roster you make prioritizes characters who are oddballs more than anything and rarely has popular characters

If you look at it hypothetically and consider franchise futures, noticeable advertising of a character, look at trends on what kind of characters people support, you'll get a good idea on what support will spike or decline as the years go by. And I consider the ones I argued about earlier to be popular when the next years come by and Smash 5 is announced.

Uh blue you know sakurai doesnt do rosters to be unpredictable, he does it to suit his vision of how his roster should be. (also i've seen hella alot of demand for GS and MOTHER especially mother, they're cultists I tell you!) you should quit while your ahead man, I like you so I dont wanna see you get teared up, even I can see holes in your arguments.
Look what you guize made me do, i wanted to lurk more. but this back and forth intrigues me.

I know that already, he said it in the Villager and Wii Fit Trainer interview. There is value and merit in some newcomers, some people just don't see it because the certain newcomer is unpopular.

 

[Burruni]

Then why were they planned anyway, doesn't that ruin your point? He didn't really care if they weren't the main character at all.


I know, but I am specifically talking about demand here, and demand is decent, but not to the point where it's extremely noticeable in loads of gaming websites, like people demanding a new F-Zero, Star Fox, and Metroid.

I have fun predicting even though I get some things wrong, if Sakurai were to just add popular newcomers, I would've not continued speculation because the line-up would be predictable and not as fun to predict.

Blue. We don't truly know if they were planned. I'm just going to say that. They were in the second half of the Gematsu leak which even I followed pretty much to a T until the Robin/Lucina reveal.

We have an emblem from the series and that is it when it comes to facts about development found.

We know Chrom and Takamaru were considered as fighters, Ridley was written off for being a more fitting boss in Sakurai's eyes, and Icies were cut due to some technical limitations on the 3DS version.

Those are the 4 characters we know by what grounds they were worked on.

We have an Emblem for rhythm heaven, alongside one for swapnote, brain age, electroplankton, and the virus files for Dr. Mario.

I always found it... odd how the leaker phrased them as "Chorus Men" when they're labeled as kids in the japanese version of Rhythm Heaven and just "Glee Club" in the states, but that's another matter.

Is it likely? Yes. But don't state it as a fact because we don't have a confirmation about this.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Reading some of this stuff gives me a headache...oy.

I feel like some of you guys spend more time talking about the damn game than playing it.

 

[XStarWarriorX]

Reading some of this stuff gives me a headache...oy.

I feel like some of you guys spend more time talking about the damn game than playing it.

Thats speculation for ya.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Reading some of this stuff gives me a headache...oy.

I feel like some of you guys spend more time talking about the damn game than playing it.

I actually played too much of it last night.

I'm getting burn out. T.T

 

[Arcadenik]

Ugh... Jumpman... SMH

I'd rather have Pauline. At least she's not a different version of Mario. And she's a Nintendo starlet.

She could even summon Donkey Kong Jr. and Stanley to assist her. For example, Up+B for Donkey Kong Jr. to carry Pauline up the vines... Neutral B for Stanley to shoot the bug spray can up like Ivysaur's Neutral B move.

And she could use her parasol and purse for her normal moves... and throw random Mini toys (including Snapjaws) to attack enemies with Side+B... and summon a burning oil drum with fireball enemies coming out of the barrel with Down+B... her Final Smash could be 8-Bit Donkey Kong coming down the vines and knocking bee hives to make bees swarm the stage.

 

[Champ Gold]

Reading some of this stuff gives me a headache...oy.

I feel like some of you guys spend more time talking about the damn game than playing it.

No seriously, do you know what this place is?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

No seriously, do you know what this place is?

He was the OP of the original thread.

Regardless, don't get so uppity. His statement is valid.

 

[Champ Gold]

He was the OP of the original thread.

Regardless, don't get so uppity. His statement is valid.

It was joke, no one was ever being uppity.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It was joke, no one was ever being uppity.

I was....

 

[Deleted member]

About wings. Ridley's wings have been small in every 2D game outside of Smash U. Sakurai said the wings were a reason to exclude him. Ridley does NOT join sides, Team Jiggle Physics did this right in their fighting game. "Ridley wouldn't be able to fly freely anymore" Didn't stop Kirby, Dedede, Meta Knight, Dark Pit, Bowser Jr and Charizard, did it?

This tells me you have not only not paid attention to what Sakurai was actually saying, but you ignored what I just pointed out as well.

Sakurai DID NOT SAY that Ridley's wings were reason for exclusion. He said that part of what would need to be done to make Ridley work as a fighter would be that wings would have to be scaled down.

Also, it does not matter if his wings are tiny in the 2D games (and even then, they're only tiny for spriting purposes; if you look at what Ridley is SUPPOSED to look like in the official artwork for Super Metroid and Zero Mission, you'll see his wings are not meant to be pathetically small like in-game), this is Other M Ridley. Other M Ridley has a very large wingspan.

And I will say this again: "All of the characters in Smash are made as close to the source material as possible in how they appear. Ridley is no exception here. While aesthetic alterations may be made (or some not-so aesthetic like Wolf's claws or Zamus' Jet Boots), none of the characters have had to have aspects drastically reduced or taken away solely to work as a balanced fighter like what would be required for Ridley."

THAT is the context of the "accurate portrayal" statement. Ridley teaming up with the players (which was a clear attempt to make up for the fact players couldn't actually control him that was poorly executed) does not fall in context of the statement. And really, it's no bloody different than having Ghirahim willingly help out Link or Zelda when summoned by them or Andross willingly help out whoever summoned him, even if it's Fox or Falco.

As for those characters you listed....

Kirby characters:
-Sakurai's own creations. He has more free reign to change aspects about them than any other character.
-Kirby and Dedede have a particular limit on being able to fly as long as they can hold their breath.
-Limitations on jumps are specifically nixed for playable characters in the Kirby series for the younger players, which negates the above limitation (though Kirby 64 features said limitation for Kirby).
-Meta Knight is the only one without a reasonable set limitation, however considering he's chivalrous, it can be handwaved that he limits how much he can fly himself to fight fair.

Dark Pit:
-CANNOT FLY ANYMORE!!! By the end of Uprising, Dark Pit lost his ability to fly when Pandora left Dark Pit's body. He has to rely on Palutena or Viridi to grant him Power of Flight like Pit does.

Bowser Jr.:
-The Clown Cars used by Jr. and the Koopalings are mass-produced models (with Jr.'s being more personalized due to getting special treatment) that trade flight capability for increased weapon function.

Charizard:
-Despite having wings, it is rarely portrayed fighting while casually flying around outside of the anime.


And something to note about Charizard and Meta Knight is that they had the ability to glide through the air in Smash initially (so did Pit, strangely enough). Gliding was then removed from the series for reasons unknown, thought it may have been because of bs like this:

In comparison, Ridley has been portrayed in Smash previously as never touching the ground except to leap from it or slam into it. Hell, Ridley even flies completely out of bounds and attacks from the background, something that would KO a player attempting to do so without outside assistance (Final Smash, Dragoon, etc.). That is what it means for Ridley to be able to fly around freely.
To go from that to having no flight at all with no reasonable excuse would understandably be a big change.
Which, if the only one, would be no issue. But it isn't the only one, now is it?

 

[Kenith]

My philosophy would produce rosters that are much more appealing to fans than what we get. If I were making smash since the beginning, Ridley, K. Rool, Villager, Toad, Ray and Andy would have been in brawl. Charizard would have been in smash 64. I could go on. Heck, I'l show you. Here is what smash 4 would look like if I had directed smash since the beginning:
View attachment 55319

I can confirm your philosophy is not accurate. I would have absolutely hated this roster.

 

[N3ON]

He was the OP of the original thread.

His was the third, this is the fourth. Xiivi was the OP of the "original".

 

[StormC]

Man, you guys are tearing good into @ BluePikmin11 and @ Zzuxon in this thread, eh? Not that I mind, it makes for an interesting discussion. At the very least, I'm glad Sakurai is in charge of the game at the end of the day, as historically speaking he's good at both pleasing fans and keeping them on their toes. Most people who think of Smash rosters just think of self-indulgent fan wishes and ultra-logical character choices (and I'm guilty of that too).

Although he likely saw K. Rool as a suggestion, I don't think he actually commented on K. Rool yet.

Right here he mentions him by name. So he's been aware of fan demands since pre-Brawl.

it's happening, folks.

 

[G0LD3N L0TUS]

Here is my updated Dream3.0. Removed Marshal & Takamaru to make space for Ryu & Roy. Tried rearanging but then it looked like an upside down pyramid type thing.

Also, replaced Slime/DQ Hero with Lara Croft. I feel Square doesn't want me to support DQ characters since they don't give me DQ .

On the topic.......#Lara4Smash!!!!

Rosters are still a thing? Well, it's here, so it's my job to ba-I mean, fairly critique it in comparison to my own ideals.

76 characters, huh, wow....that's a lot of DLC. Like, I feel it's weird to judge roster by size because it IS DLC, but keep in mind that each character, in theory, will cost $4. 76 characters makes 28 DLC characters, which costs us $112, or $140 for both versions. That's pretty insane.

There's far too much here to go through individually, I'll let other people do that.

 

[Kenith]

Here is my updated Dream3.0. Removed Marshal & Takamaru to make space for Ryu & Roy. Tried rearanging but then it looked like an upside down pyramid type thing.

Also, replaced Slime/DQ Hero with Lara Croft. I feel Square doesn't want me to support DQ characters since they don't give me DQ .

On the topic.......#Lara4Smash!!!!

Lara Croft for Smash makes little sense and would probably piss a lot of people off.
I support.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

This tells me you have not only not paid attention to what Sakurai was actually saying, but you ignored what I just pointed out as well.

Sakurai DID NOT SAY that Ridley's wings were reason for exclusion. He said that part of what would need to be done to make Ridley work as a fighter would be that wings would have to be scaled down.

Also, it does not matter if his wings are tiny in the 2D games (and even then, they're only tiny for spriting purposes; if you look at what Ridley is SUPPOSED to look like in the official artwork for Super Metroid and Zero Mission, you'll see his wings are not meant to be pathetically small like in-game), this is Other M Ridley. Other M Ridley has a very large wingspan.

And I will say this again: "All of the characters in Smash are made as close to the source material as possible in how they appear. Ridley is no exception here. While aesthetic alterations may be made (or some not-so aesthetic like Wolf's claws or Zamus' Jet Boots), none of the characters have had to have aspects drastically reduced or taken away solely to work as a balanced fighter like what would be required for Ridley."

THAT is the context of the "accurate portrayal" statement. Ridley teaming up with the players (which was a clear attempt to make up for the fact players couldn't actually control him that was poorly executed) does not fall in context of the statement. And really, it's no bloody different than having Ghirahim willingly help out Link or Zelda when summoned by them or Andross willingly help out whoever summoned him, even if it's Fox or Falco.

As for those characters you listed....

Kirby characters:
-Sakurai's own creations. He has more free reign to change aspects about them than any other character.
-Kirby and Dedede have a particular limit on being able to fly as long as they can hold their breath.
-Limitations on jumps are specifically nixed for playable characters in the Kirby series for the younger players, which negates the above limitation (though Kirby 64 features said limitation for Kirby).
-Meta Knight is the only one without a reasonable set limitation, however considering he's chivalrous, it can be handwaved that he limits how much he can fly himself to fight fair.

Dark Pit:
-CANNOT FLY ANYMORE!!! By the end of Uprising, Dark Pit lost his ability to fly when Pandora left Dark Pit's body. He has to rely on Palutena or Viridi to grant him Power of Flight like Pit does.

Bowser Jr.:
-The Clown Cars used by Jr. and the Koopalings are mass-produced models (with Jr.'s being more personalized due to getting special treatment) that trade flight capability for increased weapon function.

Charizard:
-Despite having wings, it is rarely portrayed fighting while casually flying around outside of the anime.


And something to note about Charizard and Meta Knight is that they had the ability to glide through the air in Smash initially (so did Pit, strangely enough). Gliding was then removed from the series for reasons unknown, thought it may have been because of bs like this:

In comparison, Ridley has been portrayed in Smash previously as never touching the ground except to leap from it or slam into it. Hell, Ridley even flies completely out of bounds and attacks from the background, something that would KO a player attempting to do so without outside assistance (Final Smash, Dragoon, etc.). That is what it means for Ridley to be able to fly around freely.
To go from that to having no flight at all with no reasonable excuse would understandably be a big change.
Which, if the only one, would be no issue. But it isn't the only one, now is it?

The reason why I use the wing argument is this: Ridley got a slight redesign here. They changed the colour of his chest and gave his wings extra spikes.
Brawl's artwork of Ridley has him with small wings aswell, and what does it matter if it's the Other M design? Samus still has her power suit with Super Metroid looks, only with Other M added
You admitted yourself, it was poorly executed, if something's poorly executed, there aren't any excuses. Again, Team Jiggle physics did better, and considering Sakurai said 'It wouldn't be Ridley anymore' then I don't think he should try to compensate by going "Beat up Ridley and he will help"
I'll give you props for Meta Knight, but saying "It's Sakurai's characters so it's okay" is just dumb to me. He doesn't own them nor has he made a Kirby game since Air Ride. Does Dark Pit still have a purple aura when flying? If yes, then he's using Pandora's power to fly, which was his own will. Bowser Jr's model has something that outright lets him fly infinitely. By saying they traded lack of flight for weapons...Where's the official statement on that? Otherwise it's meaningless.
Charizard may not be shown constantly flying, but the point is, he can fly infinitely, so why can't he here?
Gliding was indeed a mechanic, but that's not flying
You mean like how Charizard would only attack by spewing flames to barely doing that now? You said Sakurai said 'wings' because it's Other M's design, in Other M, Ridley spent almost all his time on the ground. Smash portrayal? I don't see Rayquaza doing all the stuff he did in Brawl. Besides, Falco's playstyle was completely changed
Honestly, I only started this because I tried to use it as an argument against Blue.

 

[Sir Gengar de Èctoplasma]

Were making Smash 5 (or 6 if you count Wii U and 3DS as separate) prediction rosters now?

Here's mine (don't have roster maker):

Spoiler

(Cpt. Toad)

(Dixie) (K. Rool)

(Zelda newc.)

(BDee)



(7th gen Pkmn)
(FE newc.)
(Isaac) (Inkling)
(Ryu) (3rd party newc.)

(, and return as alt costumes, Bowser receives Dry Bowser alt)

64 characters total.

 

[Kenith]

Reading some of this stuff gives me a headache...oy.
I feel like some of you guys spend more time talking about the damn game than playing it.

I was playing the game when I saw this post.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

once again it further emphasizes the point that poeple should really support who they want instead of saying....'Welp! Not happening Isaac 4 Smash!

I don't think I understand.

(To be honest Fawful is a character I'd probably support more if I didn't feel he was beyond hopeless.)

 

[Kenith]

I don't think I understand.
(To be honest Fawful is a character I'd probably support more if I didn't feel he was beyond hopeless.)

That's the point we're making.
Supporting Fawful might make him not be "beyond hopeless".
Everyone's just so eager to give up on anyone not named Isaac and King K. Rool.

 

[Wintropy]

I will never give up on Manakete Maiden and The Shopkeeper Sacré.

I will go down with this multi-hued, emblemised ship.

EDIT: Also, no offense, but a roster without Palutena is a roster I think needs work.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

As much as I don't really care for Palutena, I don't want her to go. I'm terrible with her, don't care for the character and have othr KI preferences, Hades and a revamped Dark Pit with Claws. However, she's important to her franchise (Kid Icarus has the name Palutena or something iirc) and she got in due to fan demand

 

[Wintropy]

As much as I don't really care for Palutena, I don't want her to go. I'm terrible with her, don't care for the character and have othr KI preferences, Hades and a revamped Dark Pit with Claws. However, she's important to her franchise (Kid Icarus has the name Palutena or something iirc) and she got in due to fan demand

Hikari Shinwa Parutena no Kagami (Light Myth: Palthena's / Palutena's Mirror).

You really can't have any of those other characters without Ladypal. That'd be like adding Bowser without Luigi or K. Rool without Diddy Kong. She is that important to her native series.

EDIT: It's also denying the fact that she was a very highly requested character and a central character in one of the most highly-acclaimed titles on the 3DS. That's worth remembering.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Honestly, if I were in charge of the next smash, I'd try to bring back every veteran and make them all feel different, for their fans. Especially as DLC is a thing, I could also do characters that didn't get finished as DLC or scrapped fighters as DLC. I'd also personally lower their price as they were intended if possible