Character Discussion Thread

[Zzuxon]

No.
Ice Climbers represent ONE IP of the NES and their 2 Smash appearances.
at least represents Gyromite & Stack-Em.
Sheik represents the most unanimously praised Zelda title alongside LttP and was brought back to the cross fic of the Zeldaverse ONTOP OF now 3 Smash appearances.

Not only is your view of representation exceptionally narrow, it is objectively false. proves that characters can represent more than the game they are from. ROB is important to game history, it basically saved the NA video game market. That is what it represents, not 2 bad games for a bad peripheral.

Except here's the thing. Characters like Goku and Shadow aren't playable. Sheik has been in all but one Smash game and two stupidly popular Zelda games

I honestly don't understand what you are getting at with this post.

No reason for hyperbole there mate. One can easily take fan demand and counterbalance it with importance.

Hence why Pit was added in Brawl.
or sonic.

and more.

godangit ninjas again. . . dang it Burruni

If fan demand is accepted as a valid criterion for inclusion it necessarily follows that Goku and Shadow are good choices. There is no middle ground here.

 

[Burruni]

Not only is your view of representation exceptionally narrow, it is objectively false. proves that characters can represent more than the game they are from. ROB is important to game history, it basically saved the NA video game market. That is what it represents, not 2 bad games for a bad peripheral.


I honestly don't understand what you are getting at with this post.


If fan demand is accepted as a valid criterion for inclusion it necessarily follows that Goku and Shadow are good choices. There is no middle ground here.

No, it isn't.
is an embodiment of the Zapper hardware and the 3 games that came of it. Edit: It was fairly out of left field for a newcomer and everyone was as shocked about how it came out as they were about .

are VETERANS, we KNOW what they represent because it is a pre-defined objective fact based on their two previous entries into Smash with little to no change between the two. A moveset that's a motley of their own game, the concept of mountain climbing, and 's Ice and Hammer powers.

Ask anyone who's glanced by the Anna thread today, I can have a VERY creative span of representation with a character. Edit: Or my Waluigi moveset encompassing damn-near every Mario spin-off in which he appears and even some good call backs to Wrecking Crew

You can't ADD it to a veteran though.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Trust me, you don't want me to...

I know Ridley won't get in for a long time, used that as an example, because the argument DOES have some holes. Accuracy to the character and wing stuff. Blue's saying his arguments are logical because he made the arguments

 

[random rendum]

I only played the modern dk games, but from what I heard he was in the majority, its like dedede, never a villain anymore but still considered a main character, imo dk deserves 2 more reps, dixie and k. rool

 

[BKupa666]

You, a Rare lover, are mocking the Banjo stuff? Damn

I adore Banjo as much as the next guy, but the people who think a single tweet overrides every other obstacle in his path are difficult to understand.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I honestly don't understand what you are getting at with this post.

Sheik has been playable in 3 games and is very popular with the Smash bros fanbase ever since she was in Melee. Cutting her because "Muh relevancy" is essentially suicide, lots of people were worried that Sheik wouldn't be playable when the Phantom was shown, others were confident she'd be in regardless. You were comparing a playable character to characters who aren't playable

 

[Swamp Sensei]

If fan demand is accepted as a valid criterion for inclusion it necessarily follows that Goku and Shadow are good choices. There is no middle ground here.

Are you kidding me?

What the **** is a sonic then?

 

[A Distant Demon]

There is no middle ground here.

this is plain stubbornness. Its possible for their to be more than one criteria of adding a character. Popularity and importance are two of them.

No middle ground? Heh

 

[Swamp Sensei]

this is plain stubbornness. Its possible for their to be more than one criteria of adding a character. Popularity and importance are two of them.

No middle ground? Heh

Not to mention that Sakurai stated popularity was considered and valued.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Not to mention that Sakurai stated popularity was considered and valued.

I mean you could also just look at the ballot but i think this is less what sakurai thinks and what zzuxon would do if he were sakurai

 

[Champ Gold]

I adore Banjo as much as the next guy, but the people who think a single tweet overrides every other obstacle in his path are difficult to understand.

Because Banjo belongs to Nintendo not Microsoft, damnit. They killed his series despite Rare being incompetent f***wads and lazy idiots that hurt the franchise's brand but Nintendo can save it. I mean it did more for Megaman all because of a final smash but it did more than Capcom

Spoiler

This why I hate the "Nintendo's Home for Nostalgia IPs" idea. Why do you someone to save something who can't save themselves (see Star Fox, Metroid and as of lately Zelda)

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Because Banjo belongs to Nintendo not Microsoft, damnit. They killed his series despite Rare being incompetent f***wads and lazy idiots that hurt the franchise's brand but Nintendo can save it. I mean it did more for Megaman all because of a final smash but it did more than Capcom

Spoiler

This why I hate the "Nintendo's Home for Nostalgia IPs" idea. Why do you someone to save something who can't save themselves (see Star Fox, Metroid and as of lately Zelda)

Okay, Star Fox and Metroid haven't had games in a while, but how is Zelda in trouble?

The new ones are universally loved and the series has always sold well.

 

[Burruni]

Because Banjo belongs to Nintendo not Microsoft, damnit. They killed his series despite Rare being incompetent f***wads and lazy idiots that hurt the franchise's brand but Nintendo can save it. I mean it did more for Megaman all because of a final smash but it did more than Capcom

Spoiler

This why I hate the "Nintendo's Home for Nostalgia IPs" idea. Why do you someone to save something who can't save themselves (see Star Fox, Metroid and as of lately Zelda)

>Star Fox U

>Other M was a poorly recieved game. The title before it? Prime 3. A VERY well recieved game

>Skyward Sword is about as controversial as any other 3D Zelda that isn't on the N64 and then LINK BETWEEN WORLDS HAPPENED AND ROCKED THE 3DS. AND HYRULE WARRIORS BECAME A SYSTEM SELLER Edit: The raw hype over Z-U is as thick as Midna's hair.

& would be far better examples.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

If I were to choose the characters, I'd obviously prioritize characters I personally want but would have to keep things in consideration. Lyn? Love her. Would I make her playable? Not until she's important again. Ray MKIII? Sure, would be unique and may help the franchise. Fan popularity, relevancy, recency, copyright and fun are what would determine the roster

 

[A Distant Demon]

Because Banjo belongs to Nintendo not Microsoft, damnit. They killed his series despite Rare being incompetent f***wads and lazy idiots that hurt the franchise's brand but Nintendo can save it. I mean it did more for Megaman all because of a final smash but it did more than Capcom

Spoiler

This why I hate the "Nintendo's Home for Nostalgia IPs" idea. Why do you someone to save something who can't save themselves (see Star Fox, Metroid and as of lately Zelda)

Star fox is getting a game. Do is zelda and it just had a spinoff.

Fzero and metroid maybe but those 2? Nah

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I'd say Metroid is getting a game announced this year honestly

 

[Champ Gold]

Okay, Star Fox and Metroid haven't had games in a while, but how is Zelda in trouble?

The new ones are universally loved and the series has always sold well.

>Star Fox U

>Other M was a poorly recieved game. The title before it? Prime 3. A VERY well recieved game

>Skyward Sword is about as controversial as any other 3D Zelda that isn't on the N64 and then LINK BETWEEN WORLDS HAPPENED AND ROCKED THE 3DS. AND HYRULE WARRIORS BECAME A SYSTEM SELLER

& would be far better examples.

Let me explain;

Metroid Other M put a franchise dormant for 5 years because they were out of ideas and damage control

Star Fox Command was disaster on all fronts and benched the franchise hard for 7-8 yet as because they outsource the series again.

And look back at every Zelda game post Wind Waker not named ALBW and Hyrule Warriors and tell me something wasn't wrong.

F-Zero was prefect example but it's been 10 years and saving is an understatement. Mother couldn't ever be saved and it's finished at this point.

I'm just Sayain

 

[Burruni]

I'd say Metroid is getting a game announced this year honestly

Next Level Games announces a 3DS Metroidvania title.

Retro Studios announces DKCR3 with the Kremlings and K. Rool Returning

Camelot announces Golden Sun 4

Hal announces WiiU Kirby with 4 player co-op again with Bandana Dee being a bro again.

Laugh infinitely.

Edit:

Let me explain;

Metroid Other M put a franchise dormant for 5 years because they were out of ideas and damage control

Star Fox Command was disaster on all fronts and benched the franchise hard for 7-8 yet as because they outsource the series again.

And look back at every Zelda game post Wind Waker not named ALBW and Hyrule Warriors and tell me something wasn't wrong.

F-Zero was prefect example but it's been 10 years and saving is an understatement. Mother couldn't ever be saved and it's finished at this point.

I'm just Sayain

You mean like Four Swords Adventures, which is universally loved. Minish Cap which was adored. Twilight Princess which people have gotten over their issues with. So that leaves... the DS games and Skyward Sword?

Aaand the last two games were bringing the series back with the third being supremely hyped? Yeah. I don't think the "can't help themselves" point is very apt.

 

[Zzuxon]

No, it isn't.
is an embodiment of the Zapper hardware and the 3 games that came of it.

are VETERANS, we KNOW what they represent. A moveset that's a motley of their own game, the concept of mountain climbing, and 's Ice and Hammer powers.

Ask anyone who's glanced by the Anna thread today, I can have a VERY creative span of representation with a character.

You can't ADD it to a veteran though.

I'm not adding anything. Interviews with Sakurai have made it clear that he wanted an NES rep and chose ice climbers to fill that niche.

Sheik has been playable in 3 games and is very popular with the Smash bros fanbase ever since she was in Melee. Cutting her because "Muh relevancy" is essentially suicide, lots of people were worried that Sheik wouldn't be playable when the Phantom was shown, others were confident she'd be in regardless. You were comparing a playable character to characters who aren't playable

Don't put words in my mouth. Relevancy has far less merit as a criterion than fan demand. Ghirahim would also be a stupid choice for a zelda character.

I mean you could also just look at the ballot but i think this is less what sakurai thinks and what zzuxon would do if he were sakurai

Bingo. It is quite clear that Sakurai thinks fan demand is valuable. I don't.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Let me explain;

Metroid Other M put a franchise dormant for 5 years because they were out of ideas and damage control

Star Fox Command was disaster on all fronts and benched the franchise hard for 7-8 yet as because they outsource the series again.

And look back at every Zelda game post Wind Waker not named ALBW and Hyrule Warriors and tell me something wasn't wrong.

F-Zero was prefect example but it's been 10 years and saving is an understatement. Mother couldn't ever be saved and it's finished at this point.

I'm just Sayain

Metroid Other M wasn't made due to lack of ideas. Why am I certain? At the end of the timeline, Samus blew up a Galactic Federation laboratory against their decision. She's a criminal now. That's more than enough
1 bad game=dormant. Otherwise plenty of franchises would be dormant
Those Zelda games weren't called bad and have lots of fans
F-Zero is the stuff of Miyamoto's nightmares
Itoi said the series is done, so why would it need saving?

I'm not adding anything. Interviews with Sakurai have made it clear that he wanted an NES rep and chose ice climbers to fill that niche.


Don't put words in my mouth. Relevancy has far less merit as a criterion than fan demand. Ghirahim would also be a stupid choice for a zelda character.


Bingo. It is quite clear that Sakurai thinks fan demand is valuable. I don't.

That's implying IC was the only thing Sakurai came up with
You said Sheik was irrelevant due to her 'only' appearance being OoT, I said it's dumb to cut for that
You'd be the Community Manager of Mighty No.9 levels of controversial then

 

[Swamp Sensei]

And look back at every Zelda game post Wind Waker not named ALBW and Hyrule Warriors and tell me something wasn't wrong.

All of those games were home to critical acclaim and tons of sales and gave birth to legions of fans.

Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean others don't.

 

[Burruni]

I'm not adding anything. Interviews with Sakurai have made it clear that he wanted an NES rep and chose ice climbers to fill that niche.

Yes. Ice Climbers are an NES IP chosen as a retro rep Sakurai chose. An essentially dead series from the NES that could embody a unique gimmick.

That doesn't mean that they represent every NES IP out there, which is what it sounded like you were meaning. It means... they represent Ice Climber(s). (And yes, the title of it in Japan is singular).

 

[Cutie Gwen]

All of those games were home to critical acclaim and tons of sales and gave birth to legions of fans.

Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean others don't.

I feel like this is something that almost everyone on this site needs to understand

 

[Champ Gold]

Metroid Other M wasn't made due to lack of ideas. Why am I certain? At the end of the timeline, Samus blew up a Galactic Federation laboratory against their decision. She's a criminal now. That's more than enough
1 bad game=dormant. Otherwise plenty of franchises would be dormant
Those Zelda games weren't called bad and have lots of fans
F-Zero is the stuff of Miyamoto's nightmares
Itoi said the series is done, so why would it need saving?

That's implying IC was the only thing Sakurai came up with
You said Sheik was irrelevant due to her 'only' appearance being OoT, I said it's dumb to cut for that
You'd be the Community Manager of Mighty No.9 levels of controversial then

1 bad game does equal dormant after what happen with Golden Sun, happen to Star Fox and F-Zero had the same problem considering the GBA exist and people forgot about those.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

1 bad game does equal dormant after what happen with Golden Sun, happen to Star Fox and F-Zero had the same problem considering the GBA exist and people forgot about those.

Dark Dawn had good ratings and good sales
Miyamoto said that Star Fox U was in development hell, they started on it since the Wii
Miyamoto is making excuses for F-Zero
What does the GBA have to do with this? You mean Zelda stuff? Minish cap was pretty popular last time I checked

 

[Swamp Sensei]

1 bad game does equal dormant.

Darn.

Mario is dormant....

 

[Champ Gold]

Dark Dawn had good ratings and good sales
Miyamoto said that Star Fox U was in development hell, they started on it since the Wii
Miyamoto is making excuses for F-Zero
What does the GBA have to do with this? You mean Zelda stuff? Minish cap was pretty popular last time I checked

See. No one remembers the F-Zero GBA games. They think I'm talking about Zelda

 

[Zzuxon]

You said Sheik was irrelevant due to her 'only' appearance being OoT, I said it's dumb to cut for that
You'd be the Community Manager of Mighty No.9 levels of controversial then

I didn't say irrelevant, I said unimportant. There is a difference. ROB, Duck Hunt, and G&W are very important but not at all relevant. They are among the best roster choices Sakurai ever made.
I'm aware that cutting Sheik would be a controversial choice. I just don't really care.

Yes. Ice Climbers are an NES IP chosen as a retro rep Sakurai chose. An essentially dead series from the NES that could embody a unique gimmick.

That doesn't mean that they represent every NES IP out there, which is what it sounded like you were meaning. It means... they represent Ice Climber(s). (And yes, the title of it in Japan is singular).

Well, I do think that means that they represent all those NES IPs. However, what Sakurai said is subject to interpretation, so you can't really do much arguing over this point.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

See. No one remembers the F-Zero GBA games. They think I'm talking about Zelda

You said past Wind Waker, not to mention I'm not an F-Zero fan, but best of all: YOU ONLY MENTIONED THE GBA AND GAVE NO OTHER CONTEXT

I didn't say irrelevant, I said unimportant. There is a difference. ROB, Duck Hunt, and G&W are very important but not at all relevant. They are among the best roster choices Sakurai ever made.

You sir, are thinking of recency. relevancy is how important they are. Sheik's latest appearance was Hyrule Warriors so that argument of yours in already in the bin

 

[Burruni]

See. No one remembers the F-Zero GBA games. They think I'm talking about Zelda

That's because the last F-Zero game was GX on the Gamecube and was stellar. Sakurai (Edit: Miyaomoto, too much Smash talk got me on Sakurai) made the excuse on the Wii that the controller set up did not work well with the fast percision that the series required.

And now he's just going "Uhm" when people ask why 200CC on Mario Kart 8 on karts styled like F-Zero and a F-Zero minigame at Nintendoland are fine but a new F-Zero game isn't here.

 

[A Distant Demon]

A director that completely ignores popularity starts off shooting themself in the foot.
with a shotgun.

Games are sold to fans. Making a game not meant to appease fans isnt going to go very well. Thankfully sakurai does take it into account so everything is good.

Wjat was the excuse for no f-zero? That the wii u controller wasny compatible? Absurd and either clearly a made up excuse or whoever it was is a bit looney when other racers exist on the console

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Sakurai

*Miyamoto

 

[Champ Gold]

You said past Wind Waker, not to mention I'm not an F-Zero fan, but best of all: YOU ONLY MENTIONED THE GBA AND GAVE NO OTHER CONTEXT

You sir, are thinking of recency. relevancy is how important they are. Sheik's latest appearance was Hyrule Warriors so that argument of yours in already in the bin

Due read my comment. I said the F-Zero GBA games specifically. I meant them in the comment

A director that completely ignores popularity starts off shooting themself in the foot.
with a shotgun.

Games are sold to fans. Making a game not meant to appease fans isnt going to go very well. Thankfully sakurai does take it into account so everything is good.

Wjat was the excuse for no f-zero? That the wii u controller wasny compatible? Absurd and either clearly a made up excuse or whoever it was is a bit looney when other racers exist on the console

Say that to Melee fans.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Due read my comment. I said the F-Zero GBA games specifically. I meant them in the comment


Say that to Melee fans.

Remember: I'm sleep deprived. Should fix that actually

Eeeexcept Melee had not only lower sales but also lower ratings than the Smash games after it

 

[Deleted member]

That's because the last F-Zero game was GX on the Gamecube and was stellar. Sakurai made the excuse on the Wii that the controller set up did not work well with the fast percision that the series required.

F-Zero: GP Legend and F-Zero: Climax were both on GBA and released after F-Zero GX.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Due read my comment. I said the F-Zero GBA games specifically. I meant them in the comment


Say that to Melee fans.

Is this about the melee roster or the game physics? Because brawl was made for casuals. AKA the larger fanbase and thus the ones being sold to.

 

[Burruni]

F-Zero: GP Legend and F-Zero: Climax were both on GBA and released after F-Zero GX.

...Really?
My timeline's off then.
My bad.

 

[Champ Gold]

Is this about the melee roster or the game physics? Because brawl was made for casuals. AKA the larger fanbase and thus the ones being sold to.

Game physics and despite Brawl being casual it hurt more than it helped

 

[BluePikmin11]

But they were all added for reasons that weren't we need a historical retro.

Yeah, Duck Hunt for being a very successful game representing back in the old days representing important hardware (and uniqueness, you don't need to bring that up), that's what R.O.B, Mr. Game and Watch, and DH have in common, the same would go for Jumpman too.

Then why hasn't it happened already?

K.Rool and Ridley have been popular for a long time.

Why did Ganon not gain their popularity already?

He's been apearing here and there.

Just because a character is a villain doesn't mean instant popularity.

Besides, most people are satisfied with Ganondorf anyways.

It's mostly because the idea wasn't brought up until months ago.

That could change when Smash 5 comes around especially when villain reason is being considered as a valuable one to many people nowadays, especially when every character with a pre-defined role will gain a level of popularity (or bandwagon) again since they have unconfirmed roles in Smash 5, just like Little Mac.

Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn are considered some of the best FEs ever made.

They flopped.

Wonderful 101 is universally loved.

It flopped.

Quality =/= sales.

Yeah, I guess I have a flaw in this.
Sakurai will probably just go by who's the newest protagonist like Pokemon (except Pokemon are specifically chosen), regardless of success.

That's some backwards logic.

I don't see people stopping their retro support, as long as retro additions keep happening with Sakurai. It's probably going to be a continuing trend that will spread across the internet like the need for villains to keep their support strong. (Just an example)

What if they just didn't end up liking the idea? What if they get an idea they like more?

I'm sure Sakurai has reviewed every possible iconic RH character imaginable. Unless there's a new minigame that ends up taking over the Chorus Kids as the most iconic, he'll likely keep the Chorus Kids idea.

Blue, forgive me for becoming an old meiser with this but...

No you won't.

You just don't like them. You've made that clear multiple times.

I have less bias for Isaac nowadays and I don't think I'll change his stance on him yet until there happens to be some last minute large amount of demand for Golden Sun out of nowhere. Camelot has made it clear that if a GS4 was to happen, they would have to be a large amount of demand for the game to happen, there's not much of it, most demand is actually towards Isaac happening in Smash instead.

And maybe I've been too hard on K. Rool. Retro has been supporting the idea of Kremlings returning, I guess I'm just more concerned of it actually happening first. :L

This has absolutely no basis and is going against what is being said in plain Japanese.

There is literally nothing proving this.

Sakurai should be aware of the trend that characters with roles already in Smash 4 are probably going be low, that's why I think he's going to do another poll to see if any demand for certain characters has changed over the past years.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Game physics and despite Brawl being casual it hurt more than it helped

Irrelevant. Oni's point was how it was made for casual fans who are the majority. If it hurt more than it helped...how did Brawl get better ratings and sales?