Character Discussion Thread

[Arcanir]

Sorry lemme re-phrase that
" what is Game Freak's Deal with Pokemon Amiibo not being used for Pokemon related things other than Smash, there's No Mario Kart Costumes and none of them are going to be used in Yoshi's Woolly World either despite everyone else being used*

The Pokémon Company have always been overprotective and reluctant of others to use their IP, even to the point that Sakurai himself has said they're very difficult to work with. Due to that, I wouldn't be surprised if they either vetoed the idea of using their characters in those games, or the creators behind those games didn't even bother to ask due to the difficulty of negotiating with them.

the problem is one or two people cant really do taht (unless you count one or two people botting the ballot. . .)

• This board has ridley discussion quarantined
• reddit hates ridley and doesnt talk about speculation anyway unless it involves indies
• gamefaqs doesnt care for ridley either from what ive seen (or logic for that matter. . .)
• idk about neogaf but i havent heard the greatest of things (wonder red support is pretty great though

Its why im a firm believer that Ridley is the new Krystal or geno. a top contender ("big 3") to someone with a drastically smaller fanbase next game. The bandwagoners have already jumped off and in many groups its okay to be a ridley hater similar how its ok to hate geno.

besides. he knows that ridley is popular. he even said it and saved the ridley boss reveal for it.

I'll add my two cents here: Ridley still has a fanbase in Gamefaqs, it's just that the hatebase is much more vocal. It's the same thing to a much lesser extent with a lot of characters over there as well as you'll see a good number of users/topics pop up about how you shouldn't support K. Rool/Dixie/Isaac/etc. Also, while it is quarantined here, there is still a large fanbase that speaks to each other in private discussions.

He'll definitely have a large hatebase by Smash 5 for certain, this whole mess behind Smash 4 along with the detractors being vindicated by Sakurai himself will make sure of that. However, I do think he'll have a strong fanbase still supporting him through it all, so I don't think he'll be another Geno at least.

 

[StormC]

And Sakurai can change his mind on characters, even if he's said before they have no chance; Villager, for an example, but there's probably others I'm forgetting.

Villager he changed his mind on, yes. He said no to Ridley twice within the span of a decade, despite being one of the most popular requests in both Brawl and 4, and releasing statements in both games about Ridley not being a fighter. Ridley is not going to be playable if Sakurai is in charge, period end.

If nothing else, I admire the man's willingness to stick to his guns on the matter despite the huge... big... notable backlash.

On a side note, about Bowser's size, it fluctuates far more than Ridley. Just looking at the platformers, he's at Smash size here:

So if you count Lost Levels, Bowser has been at a feasible Smash size in 3/5 of the main Mario games before Melee.

 

[Burruni]

actually, hammer isn't really exclusive, but I will agree he;s the most known to have it out of every mario.

Also, the 2d silver you mention reminds me something. I know I really don't like SS, but I saw someone saying an alt idea of him being in a shiny texture from the game and I found the idea awesome

The hammer honestly has been something exclusive to the RPG Marios.

As nothing from the rpgs is present in terms of the moveset for (or 's edit: or ... though has a fair amount of his changes to thank to how Inside Story made him a bipedal BEAST), it'd be exclusive in terms of Smash fighters.

That's all I meant~

 

[StormC]

The mascot so far above anyone else that it is ridicolous (around 807,3722 million when even pokemon have 270.8 million and Wii whatevever games have around 200 million). Another reason why "Mario is overrepped" makes no sense.

Mario is at 509 million, not that big. Just saying.

 

[aldelaro5]

The hammer honestly has been something exclusive to the RPG Marios.

As nothing from the rpgs is present in terms of (or 's) moveset, it'd be exclusive in terms of Smash fighters.

That's all I meant~

There;s actually one thing you overlooked: bowser jr has the slaphammer as pummel.

One thing I really asked myself for so long is why exactly?

Casue don;t get me wrong, it's jsut a move, it doesn't change Paper Mario to be an addition, but the question still bugs me.....

 

[Oz37]

So as much as I respect the Ridley fandom and its tenacity... I understand Sakurai's viewpoint. It'd almost be like wanting King Dodongo as a playable character; he's an iconic boss from multiple games in a franchise, so why not? Well, because he's a big monster that doesn't translate well into a fighting game. Sure, you can come up with a feasible and really cool moveset, but can you honestly be sure it would translate well and be a good representation of the character? Apparently, Sakurai isn't sure. It's disappointing for Ridley's fans, but it may very well be better over all for the games. But who am I kidding? This is the internet, and empathy and understanding don't tend to be in huge supply...

 

[DustyPumpkin]

Villager he changed his mind on, yes. He said no to Ridley twice within the span of a decade, despite being one of the most popular requests in both Brawl and 4, and releasing statements in both games. Ridley is not going to be playable if Sakurai is in charge, period end.

If nothing else, I admire the man's willingness to stick to his guns on the matter despite the huge... big... notable backlash.

On a side note, about Bowser's size, it fluctuates far more than Ridley. Just looking at the platformers, he's at Smash size here:

So if you count Lost Levels, Bowser has been at a feasible Smash size in three out of five of the main Mario games before Melee.

Well to be fair with Brawl, Sakurai never never said "No" at that time, just that he'd need a bit more effort and they'd have to make him a bit slow, which everyone was pretty much for

 

[StormC]

Well to be fair with Brawl, Sakurai never never said "No" at that time, just that he'd need a bit more effort and they'd have to make him a bit slow, which everyone was pretty much for

He specifically said it "would probably be impossible, [but] if we had put our best efforts into it, we may have been able to do it."

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/66789493

There's so much telephone game being played with Sakurai's statements in interviews on the internet.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

So if you count Lost Levels, Bowser has been at a feasible Smash size in three out of five of the main Mario games before Melee.

And so was Ridley. Bowser was likely shrunk to make it easier for the NES to process, like Ridley was. Either count both or count none, don't cherrypick one.

And let's just see how Ridley's size was shown before Melee;

Metroid - See above, about Samus' height.
Metroid II: Return of Samus: Doesn't appear, so no altered data
Super Metroid: Twice Samus' height.

His height was inconsistent as much as Bowser's is.

 

[Burruni]

There;s actually one thing you overlooked: bowser jr has the slaphammer as pummel.

One thing I really asked myself for so long is why exactly?

Casue don;t get me wrong, it's jsut a move, it doesn't change Paper Mario to be an addition, but the question still bugs me.....

Because it's not exactly the Slaphammer.

It's the japanese toy that the slaphammer is based on that is meant to be a joke off of Junior being a kid.

A different interpretation of that toy in the Mario series was Luigi's power special in Power Tennis

Spoiler

That's my thought, at least.

edit:

And so was Ridley. Bowser was likely shrunk to make it easier for the NES to process, like Ridley was. Either count both or count none, don't cherrypick one.

Yes.

But Ridley ever since has ALWAYS been made SIGNIFICANTLY Larger than Samus in Metroid, with his limbs tucked in with most cases.

Spoiler

And most importantly

There have been some games where Bowser is "only" Double Mario's stature at most but nonetheless, him having a rather bulky and bulbous body is easier to scale along than Ridley's lanky frame is... if we're going to go into yet another Ridley size argument.

 

[StormC]

And so was Ridley. Bowser was likely shrunk to make it easier for the NES to process, like Ridley was. Either count both or count none, don't cherrypick one.

And then Bowser did it again in Super Mario Bros. 3, along with Lost Levels. So that's three games versus one. Arguably even Super Mario World as the sprite is pretty unclear. It's only in Super Mario 64 that he's fairly big.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

If only Shokio were here to see this. Oh wait, we would rather not involve that Will Smith son of a ***** here in the first place. Because we all know that he'll resort to using both of his videos as an argument on the issue like some hotshot.

 

[StormC]

And let's just see how Ridley's size was shown before Melee;

Metroid - See above, about Samus' height.
Metroid II: Return of Samus: Doesn't appear, so no altered data
Super Metroid: Twice Samus' height.

His height was inconsistent as much as Bowser's is.

Except that Ridley wasn't up to bat as a playable fighter in Melee. It was only in Brawl that he started to get serious consideration, which had the Prime games and Zero Mission to cement his size.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

So as much as I respect the Ridley fandom and its tenacity... I understand Sakurai's viewpoint. It'd almost be like wanting King Dodongo as a playable character; he's an iconic boss from multiple games in a franchise, so why not? Well, because he's a big monster that doesn't translate well into a fighting game. Sure, you can come up with a feasible and really cool moveset, but can you honestly be sure it would translate well and be a good representation of the character? Apparently, Sakurai isn't sure. It's disappointing for Ridley's fans, but it may very well be better over all for the games. But who am I kidding? This is the internet, and empathy and understanding don't tend to be in huge supply...

The difference is that Ridley is highly requested, is actually sentient and is always one of the last bosses with some kind of role. And it will be a good representation of a character if done properly. There are a lot of things about Ridley that can easily be translated into his moveset outside of attacks (he is rather sluggish on the ground, fast and mobile in the air, hits hard, has rather fragile look outside of Other M = low ground speed, high start up or end lag on attacks, high aerial mobility and multiple jumps, high damage and knockback, rather low weight for a big guy).
He looks like a monster, but he isn't a mindless one. Kinda like Bowser, except more evil than f***ing Ganondorf.

Mario is at 509 million, not that big. Just saying.

I count all Mario games. Thats what wiki tells at least.

And then Bowser did it again in Super Mario Bros. 3, along with Lost Levels. So that's three games versus one. Arguably even Super Mario World as the sprite is pretty unclear. It's only in Super Mario 64 that he's fairly big.

Bowser is a lot bigger than Mario here:

Its safe to assume that only half of his body is shown here. And even his upper half is as big as Mario.
But if we are seriously talking about Ridley being too big, then take a look at that size comparison in one of my previous posts here and see just how much it matters to him. And there already are characters that are obviously resized like Pikachu, Lucario, Ganondorf, etc.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Except that Ridley wasn't up to bat as a playable fighter in Melee. It was only in Brawl that he started to get serious consideration, which had the Prime games and Zero Mission to cement his size.

And even then, it's still inconsistent.
Seriously, look at all the inconsistent sizes that Ridley's gone through;

How is any of this different from Bowser's size changes?

 

[StormC]

I count all Mario games. Thats what wiki tells at least.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_game_franchises

Mario: 509.4922 million

How is any of this different from Bowser's size changes?

Most of them are too big.

 

[aldelaro5]

Because it's not exactly the Slaphammer.

It's the japanese toy that the slaphammer is based on that is meant to be a joke off of Junior being a kid.

A different interpretation of that toy in the Mario series was Luigi's power special in Power Tennis

Spoiler

That's my thought, at least.

edit:


Yes.

But Ridley ever since has ALWAYS been made SIGNIFICANTLY Larger than Samus in Metroid, with his limbs tucked in with most cases.

Spoiler

And most importantly

There have been some games where Bowser is "only" Double Mario's stature at most but nonetheless, him having a rather bulky and bulbous body is easier to scale along than Ridley's lanky frame is... if we're going to go into yet another Ridley size argument.

OMG, I FINALLY KNOW WHY!!!

Dude, thanks for telling it, i was sure it was a sticker star move

Now, I actually don't make this post for only this, I jsut got a new thought I never had before on Paper Mario.

What if he's actually G&W case?

You know, G&W DOES NOT EXIST outside of smash. The character is not present anywhere even in the G&W games. he was an original character made in smash, but the reason should be logically obvious: it was a neat way to include the representation of the G&W hardware and the distinct animations as well as the 2d graphics. It's THE ONLY reason he was created, if there was a recurrent protagonist, it would be taken over an original character which takes more effort.

You could argue the same for ROB, he doesn't appear in any game, the concept of him being an actuall IRL toy was "characterisised" in smash to have this toy and a part of the NES era represented with moves from his game....and some imaginatives one.

Where I'm getting at is that Paper Mario might be similar.

THE ONLY TIME "Paper Mario" is mentioned is in trophy description as a character. The thing: same goes for wedding bowser, the word "paper" is mroe used as an adjective than a name.

And you know what makes me feel it holds up? Toon link, the only time we call him "toon" link is when we talk abotu smash, same goes for his game, except his name is never mentioned because it depends ont he filename, but the point is, factually, he doesn't exist outside of smash and it's more just one entity being link that exist.

As for doctor mario, idk, but I woul be surprised to see his game label him as "dr mario" instead of just mario.

Why it matters is it would mean that Paper Mario would be "characterisised" to have representation from his games, but the truth is outside of smash, he's still jsut mario.

You get the logic here? It would basically mean that if he was in smash, he's no longer mario, but Paper Mario, the game would treat them as separate entities even though outside of the game, mario and Paper Mario are the same character.

Meaning that the another mario logic might be even more flawed because if it's in smash context, it would actually mean that he's not mario.....which is kinda confusing, but consistent at the same time.

Anyone get my point?

 

[Curious Villager]

Toon Link is just a nickname to set him apart from Link. Although if they are going to keep both Roy names then that might start making it a little redundant I guess.... The audience even cheers for him by just calling him simply Link....

 

[aldelaro5]

Toon Link is just a nickname to set him apart from Link. Although if they are going to keep both Roy names then that might start making it a little redundant I guess.... The audience even cheers for him by just calling him simply Link....

I could swear even the audience says toon link.....that I think I recall it.....

It's still means it's made to separate them which = not the same in smash context....

 

[Curious Villager]

I could swear even the audience says toon link.....that I think I recall it.....

It's still means it's made to separate them which = not the same in smash context....

There's a video uploaded online that shows the audience cheer for every character. Toon Link's was the same as Link if I recall correctly.

And yeah, they are technically not the same character.

 

[aldelaro5]

There's a video uploaded online that shows the audience cheer for every character. Toon Link's was the same as Link if I recall correctly.

And yeah, they are technically not the same character.

after doing some reasearch, I found we are both right.

It;s just link in ssb4, NOT IN BRAWL which was what my memory told me.

Basically, I think it might be for another reasons: saving on assets.

Cause they at least took the time to have toon link in brawl while he was added first.

Meaning in the end, my point still kinda stands

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Most of them are too big.

Yes, yes, go on about the size argument.

Actually, let's see how well that holds up;

Kirby - 8 inches tall
Mario - 5 feet, 1 inch
Bowser - 8 feet, 7 inches
Donkey Kong - 6 feet, 1 inch
Samus - 6 feet, 3 inches
Ridley - 11 feet, 10 inches/12 feet, depending on game
Ganondorf - 7 feet, 6 inches
Captain Olimar - 0.75 inches tall...etc.

Evidently, it holds up horribly. To put this in perspective, Ridley is only 3 feet, 3 inches taller than Bowser is.

See Bowser here?

Ridley's chest would be about there. His head would be a bit higher than where Lakitu is with a fully extended neck. With a neck in neutral posture, Ridley would be a head taller than Bowser, and that's it.
Also, Peach (6'1'') is only two inches shorter than Samus (6'3'').

 

[Curious Villager]

after doing some reasearch, I found we are both right.

It;s just link in ssb4, NOT IN BRAWL which was what my memory told me.

Basically, I think it might be for another reasons: saving on assets.

Cause they at least took the time to have toon link in brawl while he was added first.

Meaning in the end, my point still kinda stands

Oh you where referring to Brawl? Yeah they did call him Toon Link there. I thought you where talking about Smash 4, my bad then.

 

[aldelaro5]

Oh you where referring to Brawl? Yeah they did call him Toon Link there. I thought you where talking about Smash 4, my bad then.

I was talking about smash in general though....

 

[Curious Villager]

I was talking about smash in general though....

Oh okay... guess I should probably just call it a day then. ^^;

 

[StormC]

in neutral posture, Ridley would be a head taller than Bowser, and that's it.

I can't say I want a character that much taller than Bowser. His head would clip straight through Battlefield platforms.

I'm fine with Ridley being resized (awkward proportions aside) but let's not try to bring him in at actual character height.

 

[Burruni]

Yes, yes, go on about the size argument.

Actually, let's see how well that holds up;

Kirby - 8 inches tall
Mario - 5 feet, 1 inch
Bowser - 8 feet, 7 inches
Donkey Kong - 6 feet, 1 inch
Samus - 6 feet, 3 inches
Ridley - 11 feet, 10 inches/12 feet, depending on game
Ganondorf - 7 feet, 6 inches
Captain Olimar - 0.75 inches tall...etc.

Evidently, it holds up horribly. To put this in perspective, Ridley is only 3 feet, 3 inches taller than Bowser is.

See Bowser here?

Ridley's chest would be about there. His head would be a bit higher than where Lakitu is with a fully extended neck. With a neck in neutral posture, Ridley would be a head taller than Bowser, and that's it.
Also, Peach (6'1'') is only two inches shorter than Samus (6'3'').

Bowser is around a head taller than Peach (and fittingly Samus) by reference picture. That's... 2'6" by the measurements you gave, a bit over half of the size gap for Ridley.
That still would be around half of any human fighter above Bowser in regards to comparing raw canon size.
But raw size doesn't always matter in Smash.
What is the biggest matter is PROPORTIONS.
Many Metroid fans hate the Roidley design. They want "Classic" Ridley, and it'd be the design that doesn't truly clash with Pyrosphere Ridley.
Fine. Makes sense. That's his more uniform design.
Let's look at those proportions, going off of that design's adaptation in Brawl.

Namely it's the grounds that he has fairly scrawny limbs, VERY thin neck, and elongated tail.
Congrats, this is the argument that's been done to death.
That Project M mod with the Other M design does make a fairly convincing case for how it can work.
But when we go for the more beloved design when trying to be made into a fighter by fan mods....
Some results are not nearly as pretty.

Spoiler

THAT NECK.

The Other M design was the far more probable one to be converted into a fighter than the Super Metroid onwards one because its bodyshape was more natural and burly.
Has Bowser been scaled? Up down and sideways in both his own games and Smash. But his body is one that can go through it pretty seemlessly.
Ridley is meant to be a living totem of terror. I'd rather see a design that looks better as a fighter while retaining an intimidating look from the Metroid series to be interpreted in Smash... that people don't despite namely due to the game it's from.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I can't say I want a character that much taller than Bowser. His head would clip straight through Battlefield platforms.

I'm fine with Ridley being resized (awkward proportions aside) but let's not try to bring him in at actual character height.

Ew Ridley talk. But here is my two cents. A head taller than bowser would work as a playable character, especially since his head is so flat. F.Y.I. Bowser's hair phases through the platforms on Battlefield normaly, his Down Taunt causes his shell to phase through them, and his Idle Animation occasionally makes his nose phase through the platforms.

 

[StormC]

Ew Ridley talk. But here is my two cents. A head taller than bowser would work as a playable character, especially since his head is so flat. F.Y.I. Bowser's hair phases through the platforms on Battlefield normaly, his Down Taunt causes his shell to phase through them, and his Idle Animation occasionally makes his nose phase through the platforms.

Hair phasing through platforms is nothing compared to Ridley's honker cutting right through 'em.

Then you get into the problems of really big hitboxes.

 

[BluePikmin11]

You know, I've been thinking about it for a while, and I think I have pinpointed on why I think retros have a very little chance is because Nintendo hasn't notably revived any of the old IPs with a new game like they did with Little Mac as of recent. Though if there is an upcoming game for one of them, he may try to promote it through developing a character.

 

[Burruni]

You know, I've been thinking about it for a while, and I think the reason why I think retros have a very little chance is because Nintendo hasn't notably revived any of the old IPs with a new game like they did with Little Mac as of recent. Though if there is an upcoming game for one of them, he may try to promote it through developing a character.

Like how Sakurai chose because there was planning for an upcoming revival for that IP....

HEY WAIT A MINUTE!

 

[BluePikmin11]

I know, but he has changed his mindset a bit on selecting retros over time. I don't think he's looking for a specific type of character (like NES representative in Melee), nor is he using popularity in mind when it comes to selecting retros anymore. Even then most notable retro candidates have already been reconfirmed as ATs now.

 

[aldelaro5]

So, I just got a VERY silly character idea that might sounds like a joke, but after thinking about it, might be really cool.

idk how you can do this from a game design perspective, but Nintendo really seems to do a lot of joke refference to the virtual boy even if we all know how much of a failure the system was.

What if smash could pull another G&W and have a character that reps that system?

Think about it, you would have animation based on red lasers that simulates 3d objects.

idk how it can be done, but does anyone feel this idea can go a lot further?

cause idk, but for me, it sounds really awesome

 

[StormC]

I think with Smash 4 he just became more concerned with choosing more "relevant" characters.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Hair phasing through platforms is nothing compared to Ridley's honker cutting right through 'em.

Then you get into the problems of really big hitboxes.

I think it would only cut off the top of his head. Brains are overrated anyways. Looking at Charizard under the effects of a Super Mushroom, he is a head taller than bowser (Ignoring his wings because Ridley is more upright and wouldn't have his wings in that position.), and only the top of his head cuts through. As far as really big Hurtboxes, I'm sure there is a way to balance this out. But anyways, that's just what I think. I'm not going to spend pages arguing over a character I don't even support. I'm just saying it could be done and nothing more.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I wonder, if Ridley did appear in a new Metroid game, and was around Bowser/DK/K.Rool size and looked good.

Would your thoughts change?

 

[Burruni]

I wonder, if Ridley did appear in a new Metroid game, and was around Bowser/DK/K.Rool size and looked good.

Would your thoughts change?

On his inclusion... basically, yeah. My point is that he doesn't have a current design that the fans as a whole like, scales well, and retains a good amount of intimidation WHEN scaled.

As soon as Metroid manages to do this kind of design in their own games, you'll hear me behind him come Smash 5.

 

[StormC]

I wonder, if Ridley did appear in a new Metroid game, and was around Bowser/DK/K.Rool size and looked good.

Would your thoughts change?

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if that happened. I'd definitely be open to the idea; honestly, Other M Ridley is already halfway there. He has the proportions to make downsizing feasible. Just not the actual size.

For what it's worth, I've never not been in favor of Ridley; I think he could be great to have and I'd be totally fine with him in Smash if he looked good, if not perfect. But I think people often underestimate the work taken to make Ridley not look awkward in the game. He's unique as a Smash candidate in this regard, with both his height and his design working against him.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Speaking of retro characters, in your opinion, what are the chances we'll get another historical retro as DLC? (Like DH, R.O.B., G&W)

 

[Burruni]

Speaking of retro characters, in your opinion, what are the chances we'll get another historical retro as DLC? (Like DH, R.O.B., G&W)

I think hopes for Retro are with another title, not as DLC IMO.
That's just me.
But Retro characters who can be tied in to a specific piece of hardware are the go to with the other hope being if Sakurai has a particular fondness for the character as a moveset/mechanic