Character Discussion Thread

[Swamp Sensei]

Obviously he wouldn't count suggestions like Shrek, Goku or 'reckless silhouette guy'.

But you never know about characters that actually make at least some sense, like Krystal, Bayonetta, Waddle Dee, Rayman ect.

Chrom and Ridley made sense....

I miss Ridley hype....

Ryu isn't exactly that unique, although different enough, Hadouken, Shoryuken and Tatsumaki Senpukyaku were in Mario's moveset

So = then?

 

[BluePikmin11]

Actually.

The thing about Fighting Game characters was a mistranslation.

Wasn't it @ PushDustIn ?


Regardless, he allowed it to be open ended.

That doesn't mean he's open to anything. You're making a false connection.

Still I can use other arguments like Villager to prove he can change his mind on certain type of characters, including other third-parties.

found it.

Is that PushDustin's translation.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

: Totally Granted. He changed his mind. A game later after the series became far more popular.
Chrom: Of the two major protagonists of Awakening, Sakurai saw more appeal in a magiknight. Is there really an argument against it?
Takamaru: Not popular enough of a Retro without being tied to a piece of hardware () or being part of a unique gimmick ()
Ridley: Fits better as a boss. He's a Charizard with the lankiness of Waluigi. That's his philosophy and there is a significant chunk of people who aggree with him.
Ryu: NEVER BLATANTLY SAID NO. HE SAID THAT FIGHTING GAME CHARACTERS DIDN'T INTEREST HIM AS MUCH TO TRY TO SHOW OFF IN SMASH.
ExciteBiker: We already got a biker that encompassses almost everything about Excite Bike.

I ****ing hate Chrom and like Robin, I was just stating my mind. It's not that hard to find a unique Chrom moveset
Takamaru can turn invisible, that's a good gimmick
I was moreso talking about the 'small wings wouldn't be Ridley' and the 'he wouldn't be able to fly freely' points, and I hate how he said 'this is more threatening' when you can literally hit him once to make him join your side
I misunderstood that
One move =/= entire moveset. I'd love to have Excitebiker/Mach Rider to be playable with a moveset that fully consists of motorcycle action. That's not easy to do, but it could be so stupidly fun

 

[A Distant Demon]

Still I can use other arguments like Villager to prove he can change his mind on certain type of characters, including other third-parties.


Is that PushDustin's translation.

it's a quote found by golden. it's in the leak thread.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

About my statement on Ryu and Mario's moves. I said they are different enough, but resemble each other. Shoryuken being the most obvious but I still see that being different enough

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Actually, how many characters has Sakurai deliberately said no too?
Villager-Wouldn't fit in a fighting game due to peaceful nature-Playable now
Chrom-Too similar to Marth and Ike in comparison to Robin-Skills can be used for a unique moveset
Takamaru-Assumed not popular enough despite appearing in quite a few games, including Murasame GBA which sold well iirc, something that would determine his spot in a previous interview-Blatant lies
Ridley-Multiple reasons though not all make sense-Blatant lies and bias
Ryu-Fighting game characters wouldn't fit in smash to Sakurai-DLC
Excitebiker-No realistic aerial animations-Lack of creativity

I think graphical limitations contributed in the Exitebiker's case. Although, now it would be easier to show the effort the exitebiker exerts when jumping with his vehicle, so there is no excuse for him being left out. (Now would be the perfect time! While he's getting some love.)

So = then?

======== because they all have similar neutral specials. Duh!

 

[BluePikmin11]

I need an understanding here, what exactly was Sakurai trying to say when he said no fighting game character.

Ryu: NEVER BLATANTLY SAID NO. HE SAID THAT FIGHTING GAME CHARACTERS DIDN'T INTEREST HIM AS MUCH TO TRY TO SHOW OFF IN SMASH.

Wouldn't that have affected his decision in adding Ryu in Smash though?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I need an understanding here, what exactly was Sakurai trying to say when he said no fighting game character.

Wouldn't that have affected his decision in adding Ryu in Smash though?

It would, but Sakurai has been known to change his mind. Hence Villager and Pac-Man

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Still I can use other arguments like Villager to prove he can change his mind on certain type of characters, including other third-parties.

That was over the span of years.

You're using the logic that some people use with Ridley....

I need an understanding here, what exactly was Sakurai trying to say when he said no fighting game character.

That's the thing.

He never said no fighting game characters.

 

[PushDustIn]

Actually.

The thing about Fighting Game characters was a mistranslation.

Wasn't it @ PushDustIn ?


Regardless, he allowed it to be open ended.

That doesn't mean he's open to anything. You're making a false connection.

It's a quote that's taken out of context.

“The biggest feature we look at in Smash Bros. is, ‘What does this character bring to Smash Bros. that other characters don’t?’ If you look at… someone from a fighting game already, and people like fighting with this character, from my point of view, it’s like ‘this guy does what this guy already does. He fills the role that this character already has. So while you may like this character and he’s interesting, that doesn’t really merge well, here.”

He's talking about the need for interesting characters, not that all fighting game characters wouldn't work. He used fighting game characters as a potential example. Unfortunately, I don't have the full interview so we don't have the complete context.

 

[A Distant Demon]

see. i toold you i found it

 

[Burruni]

I need an understanding here, what exactly was Sakurai trying to say when he said no fighting game character.

Wouldn't that have affected his decision in adding Ryu in Smash though?

Affect it? Yes. It'd be a weight against him. But Sakurai never explicitly stated that he wanted no characters from fighting games in Smash, nor specifically against Ryu. He said that there was less that the team could do with a fighting game character to make them "unique" in Smash from their original medium. Then again, we also have the theory that Ryu was part of a "deal" to get Megaman in and frankly.... if there was ANY sole fighting game character that was Smash worthy, it WOULD be Ryu.

 

[Frostwraith]

Whoa! Sakurai changes his mind and opinions over time! Just like, you know, any normal human being.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Not to mention that unlike Mega Man, Crapcom hasn't been trying to kill Street Fighter but have showered it in money

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

It would, but Sakurai has been known to change his mind. Hence Villager and Pac-Man

And Mii Fighters.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Sometimes Sakurai changes his mind on who he thinks could work well in Smash, that doesn't mean he'll just as easily change his mind on what 3rd party characters he thinks are worthy of getting in Smash.

 

[Burruni]

And Mii Fighters.

When has Sakurai been on record to say anything against Miis? All I remember was something around the age of Brawl that he wanted to have them in but at the time they had little from source material to run off of as a fighter

 

[Wolfie557]

I think graphical limitations contributed in the Exitebiker's case. Although, now it would be easier to show the effort the exitebiker exerts when jumping with his vehicle, so there is no excuse for him being left out. (Now would be the perfect time! While he's getting some love.)

======== because they all have similar neutral specials. Duh!

I'd personally take Mach Rider over Excite Biker for the following reasons:

• Guns
• Regeneration
• Better Bike
• Awesome
• Probably easier to animate jumps ect.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

When has Sakurai been on record to say anything against Miis? All I remember was something around the age of Brawl that he wanted to have them in but at the time they had little from source material to run off of as a fighter

E3 last year, same reason with Villager, violence was wrong for the character

I'd personally take Mach Rider over Excite Biker for the following reasons:

• Guns
• Regeneration
• Better Bike
• Awesome
• Probably easier to animate jumps ect.

Moar Kamen Rider

 

[Wolfie557]

Sometimes Sakurai changes his mind on who he thinks could work well in Smash, that doesn't mean he'll just as easily change his mind on what 3rd party characters he thinks are worthy of getting in Smash.

Doesn't mean it would take longer to change his mind on what 3rd party characters should get in.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Affect it? Yes. It'd be a weight against him. But Sakurai never explicitly stated that he wanted no characters from fighting games in Smash, nor specifically against Ryu. He said that there was less that the team could do with a fighting game character to make them "unique" in Smash from their original medium. Then again, we also have the theory that Ryu was part of a "deal" to get Megaman in and frankly.... if there was ANY sole fighting game character that was Smash worthy, it WOULD be Ryu.

So it would still be a large point against him?
I'm reading this carefully, and I still don't get the point being said, the point against fighting characters that they would've been less unique still would've ended up making Ryu out of Sakurai's radar at the time.

 

[PushDustIn]

Actually, how many characters has Sakurai deliberately said no too?
Villager-Wouldn't fit in a fighting game due to peaceful nature-Playable now
Chrom-Too similar to Marth and Ike in comparison to Robin-Skills can be used for a unique moveset
Takamaru-Assumed not popular enough despite appearing in quite a few games, including Murasame GBA which sold well iirc, something that would determine his spot in a previous interview-Blatant lies
Ridley-Multiple reasons though not all make sense-Blatant lies and bias
Ryu-Fighting game characters wouldn't fit in smash to Sakurai-DLC
Excitebiker-No realistic aerial animations-Lack of creativity

I think you are looking for this.

For Excitebiker it was because he would have to install ramps into the levels (how would he jump?)

Ridley is known to be a huge boss character. He can easily pick up Samus, with the exception of one appearance (Snes.

Takamru- unknown in the West, but Sakurai actually loves the character. If anything, but not including him it's further proof that Sakurai isn't biased. That comment about sales is currently unconfirmed.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Sakurai is a strange little man who can't be predicted nor does he have consistency. Basing something on 'what if' has to be the worst thing to do. He is rather biased, by making Dark Pit playable for one minor inaccurate detail while not doing that to a large variety of NPC's. He can be somewhat lazy as Star Fox, DK and Metroid stage locations have shown, having similar environments despite a large variety in the actual games.

I think you are looking for this.

For Excitebiker it was because he would have to install ramps into the levels (how would he jump?)

Ridley is known to be a huge boss character. He can easily pick up Samus, with the exception of one appearance (Snes.

Takamru- unknown in the West, but Sakurai actually loves the character. If anything, but not including him it's further proof that Sakurai isn't biased. That comment about sales is currently unconfirmed.

Smash isn't realistic, meaning you could just make him jump like any other character
Said one appearance is coincidentally his most iconic design, when fans say they want Ridley, they'll usually point to that appearance
Takamaru isn't well known? Samurai Warriors 3 and Nintendo Land did something to that. I got the sales thing from your site, must have read it wrong then. My apologies

 

[BluePikmin11]

That was over the span of years.

You're using the logic that some people use with Ridley....

What is this logic exactly? Can you guys be more specific with this please.

 

[PushDustIn]

Sakurai is a strange little man who can't be predicted nor does he have consistency. Basing something on 'what if' has to be the worst thing to do. He is rather biased, by making Dark Pit playable for one minor inaccurate detail while not doing that to a large variety of NPC's. He can be somewhat lazy as Star Fox, DK and Metroid stage locations have shown, having similar environments despite a large variety in the actual games.

You could argue that the Fire Emblem stages are also lazy using that same.logic, which is a series many claim he has bias towards.

Dark Pit was meant to be an alternative costume. That's why he appears with no splash in Palutenas reveal, and Pits alts were hidden before release. Creating Dark Pit did not cause another character to not make it in. He's stated multiple times, since Melee that the clone characters take up much less development time. Dark Pit has a ton of innaccuriases if I remember correctly. His moveset is based around Pits character and not his own.

 

[Burruni]

So it would still be a large point against him?
I'm reading this carefully, and I still don't get the point being said, the point against fighting characters that they would've been less unique still would've ended up making Ryu out of Sakurai's radar at the time.

Lemme boil this down.
We don't know.
We can only make speculations and guesses into the twisted mind of Sakurai. He just said that fighting game characters are less interesting as a concept for a character to chose, based on people translating his words.
Could it simply be that Ryu being the single most iconic fighting game character whose series revolutionized competitive gameplay being something of two players going against eachother instead of who can get the most points? Maybe.
Could it be the series history on Arcades and Nintendo, since Megaman and Pac-Man are clearly chosen with the older years of gaming in mind? Maybe.
Could it be that Capcom forced Ryu into Sakurai's hands? Maybe.
But we don't know because there is no official word about anything between Ryu and Smash. We are making guesses based on correlations from interviews from over a year ago, choices in other 3rd parties, and the existance of ONE SOUND FILE in the game that was data mined.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

What is this logic exactly? Can you guys be more specific with this please.

Blue. You know what I'm talking about.

The "BUT HE COULD CHANGE HIS MIND!" argument is baseless.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

You could argue that the Fire Emblem stages are also lazy using that same.logic, which is a series many claim he has bias towards.

Dark Pit was meant to be an alternative costume. That's why he appears with no splash in Palutenas reveal, and Pits alts were hidden before release. Creating Dark Pit did not cause another character to not make it in. He's stated multiple times, since Melee that the clone characters take up much less development time. Dark Pit has a ton of innaccuriases if I remember correctly. His moveset is based around Pits character and not his own.

Fire Emblem only has 2 stages so that's why I haven't judged it, and Dark Pit was made playable because otherwise he'd use the 3 Sacred Treasures. That's Sakurai's reasoning

 

[PushDustIn]

Fire Emblem only has 2 stages so that's why I haven't judged it, and Dark Pit was made playable because otherwise he'd use the 3 Sacred Treasures. That's Sakurai's reasoning

2 stages which are uninteresting. I'm talking about his general moveset, not his Final Smash. Also like I said, Dark Pit was going to have the 3 Sacred Treasures as his final smash for most of the development. They had some time to add clone characters but not enough to add a unique character. It's the same situation as Melee.

 

[Wolfie557]

Blue. You know what I'm talking about.

The "BUT HE COULD CHANGE HIS MIND!" argument is baseless.

I dunno.

To me all speculation is a mish mash of things that are usually baseless.(not talking moveset-wise but like why it should/snouldn't be a character ect.)

 

[Cutie Gwen]

2 stages which are uninteresting. I'm talking about his general moveset, not his Final Smash. Also like I said, Dark Pit was going to have the 3 Sacred Treasures as his final smash for most of the development. They had some time to add clone characters but not enough to add a unique character. It's the same situation as Melee.

In Melee, Sakurai went for Quantity over Quality iirc. I remembered Ferox just now, and scrolling stages are in my heart for some reason. I remember Sakurai specifically mentioning final smash in those articles. He used a food analogy too iirc. The problem with clones here is that ironically enough, Dr Mario is the only one who feels different

 

[Burruni]

2 stages which are uninteresting. I'm talking about his general moveset, not his Final Smash. Also like I said, Dark Pit was going to have the 3 Sacred Treasures as his final smash for most of the development. They had some time to add clone characters but not enough to add a unique character. It's the same situation as Melee.

And let's look at our alternate costume options from the work that they were at as costumes.
- Were one of if not the very last unique character made, almost got cut due to time. And frankly it'd make no sense to make ONE koopaling unique if ALL of them aren't. Plus this worked beautifully with the 8 color thing.
//: Just gender flipped version of the same character with no unique abilities or properties as a fighter.
: Could...... have used rock pikmin instead of purples? Honestly the only difference between these two IN THEIR HOME GAMES is that Olimar goes slowly insane with Greed between Pikmin 2 and 3 while Alph stays as a kind-hearted explorer trying to help his employers and team mates. Gameplay wise they're entirely identical otherwise barring game-specific upgrades like Dodge Whistle instead of the NapSack.

Edit: In comparison, the three that were promoted to clones.
:
: Most popular female character in FE13, third protagonist to the game, and a similar but not identical sword. Canonly adapted her looks and fighting style to mirror the Hero King in hopes of saving her kingdom.
: Shadow of the Sonic franchise. Can do basically everything Sonic can, but has enough differences on his own. Plus a weapon named after him.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Blue. You know what I'm talking about.

The "BUT HE COULD CHANGE HIS MIND!" argument is baseless.

Is that what is being said when people ask for Ridley as DLC?
He already said his official words to specifically Ridley for this game and already has a role in Smash 4 that probably won't change for DLC anytime soon. I'm not sure if that's the right comparison. ?_?

 

[Wolfie557]

I would be happy for the current 3 last minute clones to return next time as last minute clones of that's the only way they could return.

(except maybe Dr.Mario, I would be fine with him a Alph/Olimar thing with Mario, even though I do like him.)

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Is that what is being said when people ask for Ridley as DLC?
He already said his official words to specifically Ridley for this game and already has a role in Smash 4 that probably won't change for DLC anytime soon. I'm not sure if that's the right comparison. ?_?

Point is, both have a problem, Bayonetta's main thing was her stripperific powers. Ridley's problem being he's already an NPC. I think it's safe to say Ridley would have an easier time being platform in general than Bayonetta solely based on that

 

[A Distant Demon]

Is that what is being said when people ask for Ridley as DLC?
He already said his official words to specifically Ridley for this game and already has a role in Smash 4 that probably won't change for DLC anytime soon. I'm not sure if that's the right comparison. ?_?

ridley fans say he could change his mind.

you are saying he could change his mind about 3rd parties being an icon.

 

[PushDustIn]

The problem with clones here is that ironically enough, Dr Mario is the only one who feels different

I don't think you quite understand what a clone character is suppose to be. See Ryu/ Evil Ryu / Akuma? / Ken for additional details.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Here's what should happen in the next smash. Take the clone characters and promote them to semi clones. Toon Link's debatable but I feel like he should have a few more differences, Roy, Lucina, Dark Pit however are easy to declone because of weapons/skills. Pichu and Dr Mario are the only problems as one is still Mario and the other doesn't have much to work with

 

[Dinoman96]

I don't think you quite understand what a clone character is suppose to be. See Ryu/ Evil Ryu / Akuma? / Ken for additional details.

The thing is, despite reusing animations, the clones in Melee felt different enough to be their own character. One really can't play as Fox in the same way they could play as Falco. In terms of playstyle, they're completely different beasts. Dark Pit's playstyle, however, is just generally the same as Pit, but very slightly modified.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I don't think you quite understand what a clone character is suppose to be. See Ryu/ Evil Ryu / Akuma? / Ken for additional details.

I understand the difference, but I'm specifically talking about Smash4 clones, Dark Pit's differences aren't noticeable, Lucina is essentially a Marth who can't tip, Dr Mario however feels different due to speed, recovery, power and Down B. The point of clones is to pad out the roster and to give an old moveset a twist