Character Discussion Thread

[Wolfie557]

just replace Ganondorfs Up, Side and Down special's and I will be happy.

Or Side, Neutral and Down.

 

[A Distant Demon]

just replace Ganondorfs Side special a

no. flame choke is too much fun. also one of the unique parts about him. why replace THAT of all things

 

[Frostwraith]

I agree with the notion in that Ganondorf should be changed more, but they should actually keep the playstyle he currently has.

The interesting about him is that he's balanced pretty well against the other Triforce bearers, as all of their playstyles basically represent each piece of it. Link, the bearer of "Courage" is the fair swordsman with the physical tools. Zelda, the bearer of "Wisdom" is the mage with the ranged, magical based attacks. And 'Dorf, the bearer of "Power", is the monstrously powerful fist fighter.

So, basically this trope: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FighterMageThief

The Triforce trio is even listed as an example.

Ganondorf is the Fighter. He has overwhelming power and knows how to use it to achieve his goals.
Zelda is the Mage. She knows a variety of magical powers, but is more fragile and less experient in fighting.
Link is the Thief. He uses a wide variety of tools that allow him to be versatile in combat.

 

[Wolfie557]

Ganondorfs move design is extremely lazy, he has so much more he could work with from the games but his Moveset will never change so it really doesn't matter sadly.

I still have hope it will change sometime.

I'm blaming Sakurai & Melee for the wasted potential.

no. flame choke is too much fun. also one of the unique parts about him. why replace THAT of all things

Okay, whatever combination as long as 3 special's are replaced.

 

[MoveMan1]

I think I read in an article about Japan's speculation about DLC that they don't want Ganondorf changed, as that would take away from their beloved "ancient master" cliché. I'm not kidding.

(However, they would be find with Black Bull getting his old moves if Ganondorf got new ones.)

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I just realized something. Wario was replaced by Dr Mario in Melee for deserving better. Why didn't Sakurai consider that for Ganondorf?

That is worded oddly. Wario was considered to be a clone of Mario, but Sakuri decided Wario deserved better than clone status, so they added Dr. Mario instead. Same with Wolf. (Falco was added instead.) The point was to make a clone of Mario and Fox, and Wario and Wolf had more potential than that. I think Ganondorf's inclusion may have been on a time crunch, and they just gave him the moveset of the character with the closest stature to his.Captain Falcon.

 

[Frostwraith]

Sakurai did say he added Ganondorf in Melee as a Falcon clone because the Ganondorf model worked well with the animations due to their similar structure. Ganondorf was very wanted in polls conducted prior to Melee, which led to the decision of adding him at the last minute, as priority had been given to Zelda and Sheik. Little did they know that the way he was added would be one of the most controversial things about Smash...

So he was lucky to be included in Melee as a clone, but Sakurai's reluctance to change veterans too much since Melee left quite the side-effect.

In fact, Jigglypuff's inclusion in Smash 64 was due to similar reasons, as her model worked with Kirby's animations well and she was pretty much a Kirby semi-clone, just with different specials and a few different moves or proprieties.

The transition to Melee saw a huge overhaul to the original 12 in regards to animations thanks to the technological leap from the N64 to the GameCube, so both Kirby and Jigglypuff had changes in different directions. Anyway, there are still a few semi-cloned moves in Jigglypuff's moveset such as her forward Smash or her backwards throw.

Since Melee, characters haven't had many changes. Luigi has been getting some overhauls every game but he still has a bunch of cloned moves from Mario, while Falco and Ganondorf got a bunch of changes in Brawl, but overall still based on Fox and Falcon.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

You know who also bugs me? Ike. Ike's fast and strong in FE, but slow in smash. Why? "because he'd fit a heavyweight" Then why make him a heavyweight in the first place? Not to mention they used the Ranger class design in Brawl instead of Lord iirc

 

[Dinoman96]

Since Melee, characters haven't had many changes. Luigi has been getting some overhauls every game but he still has a bunch of cloned moves from Mario, while Falco and Ganondorf got a bunch of changes in Brawl, but overall still based on Fox and Falcon.

I think a similar thing could be said for the unique characters, as well. Pit got new specials based on Uprising as well as some new A moves, but for the most part, his general gists remains the same as it did in Brawl. In both games, he's an archer who uses his bow which splits into two blades for most of his attacks. Much of the essence of his Brawl self remains in his Smash 4 incarnation.

What we need to realize is that Sakurai simply isn't going to do what Capcom did with Jill Valentine in the transition from MVC2 to 3. Jill in MVC2 was a summoner character, but all of that was completely thrown out in MVC3, where she was a fast, ZSS-esque rushdown type of fighter. Absolutely nothing was preserved from her MVC2 design. Sakurai might give certain characters new normals, specials, buffs/nerfs, etc, but for the most part he'll leave most of their previous gist the same as they were in previous installments.

In other words, when a character is added to Smash, they're given a general identity, and for the rest of the time they're in Smash, they're stuck with that identity, in spite of changes done to them. And for better or worse, Ganondorf's identity in Smash is being based on the Cap.

 

[Wolfie557]

Like Pit, Ganon having a move or two or three that are new won't change his 'smash identity' much.

 

[Dinoman96]

Like Pit, Ganon having a move or two or three that are new won't change his 'smash identity' much.

I agree, but that post you're replying to is mainly a response to the people insisting that Ganondorf needs a complete overhaul and he should be using his sword the entire time or something.

 

[Wintropy]

You know who also bugs me? Ike. Ike's fast and strong in FE, but slow in smash. Why? "because he'd fit a heavyweight" Then why make him a heavyweight in the first place? Not to mention they used the Ranger class design in Brawl instead of Lord iirc

Y'know why Ike is a heavyweight fighter?

Because he wields a big ****ing sword.

Ragnell is a two-handed sword by design, but Ike wields it in one hand: this isn't just because he's strong and in good shape, it's because his father taught him to fight with an axe. Ike is an axe fighter by pedigree, he doesn't know how to fight with a sword in the same way that Marth or Link would. He wields his sword like he would an axe: swinging it, chopping it, cleaving it and letting the weight of the sword carry itself. He doesn't thrust or slash, he just pops the sword into the air and lets gravity take over. You aren't gonna say much in the way of formalities when there's four feet of solid steel splitting your skull open like the wrath of the heavens.

Could Ike be super-fast and agile like he is in Radiant Dawn? Probably, but that would totally upset the balance of the game. Having a character that hits like a truck and can outrun Captain Falcon is just asking to break the game; unless you want to go down the route of making him Little Mac, which is unbalanced in a whole 'nother way. The trick with Ike is that he's heavy because his sword is ****ing heavy: it's basically an axe with longer range and a narrower blade. The principle, how and ever, remains the same: swing and splatter. Even taking game balance out of the picture, Ike is a heavyweight because the game could do with more heavyweights; not everybody has to be a glass cannon lightning bruiser, otherwise we'd be playing Captain Falcon Fisticuffs All-Star Battle Royale Melee Mk II, not Super Smash Bros.

 

[Wolfie557]

I agree, but that post you're replying to is mainly a response to the people insisting that Ganondorf needs a complete overhaul and he should be using his sword the entire time or something.

I'd personally like a combination of sword/trident, projectile magic and punchy kicky magic guy he is right now.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Y'know why Ike is a heavyweight fighter?

Because he wields a big ****ing sword.

Ragnell is a two-handed sword by design, but Ike wields it in one hand: this isn't just because he's strong and in good shape, it's because his father taught him to fight with an axe. Ike is an axe fighter by pedigree, he doesn't know how to fight with a sword in the same way that Marth or Link would. He wields his sword like he would an axe: swinging it, chopping it, cleaving it and letting the weight of the sword carry itself. He doesn't thrust or slash, he just pops the sword into the air and lets gravity take over. You aren't gonna say much in the way of formalities when there's four feet of solid steel splitting your skull open like the wrath of the heavens.

Could Ike be super-fast and agile like he is in Radiant Dawn? Probably, but that would totally upset the balance of the game. Having a character that hits like a truck and can outrun Captain Falcon is just asking to break the game; unless you want to go down the route of making him Little Mac, which is unbalanced in a whole 'nother way. The trick with Ike is that he's heavy because his sword is ****ing heavy: it's basically an axe with longer range and a narrower blade. The principle, how and ever, remains the same: swing and splatter. Even taking game balance out of the picture, Ike is a heavyweight because the game could do with more heavyweights; not everybody has to be a glass cannon lightning bruiser, otherwise we'd be playing Captain Falcon Fisticuffs All-Star Battle Royale Melee Mk II, not Super Smash Bros.

Meanwhile Rosalina and Mewtwo are light as hell

 

[Wintropy]

Meanwhile Rosalina and Mewtwo are light as hell

Yes, because:

A. They don't wield giant meat cleavers bigger than most full-grown men: they are a cosmic mother and a psychic abomination, respectively, neither of which screams "lead-statured tank"; at least not to the same extent as "six-foot warrior kitted out in heavy leather armour and wielding a sword as heavy as an axe" does.

B. Why would they possibly be heavyweights from a balancing perspective? Neither of them would benefit from it at all, it'd just inhibit them without justification.

You're cherry-picking arbitrary examples that don't have anything to do with the central thesis. "Why is Ike a heavyweight but Rosalina and Mewtwo aren't?" Umm I dunno I guess because those two things have literally nothing to do with each-other?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Yes, because:

A. They don't wield giant meat cleavers bigger than most full-grown men: they are a cosmic mother and a psychic abomination, respectively, neither of which screams "lead-statured tank"; at least not to the same extent as "six-foot warrior kitted out in heavy leather armour and wielding a sword as heavy as an axe" does.

B. Why would they possibly be heavyweights from a balancing perspective? Neither of them would benefit from it at all, it'd just inhibit them without justification.

You're cherry-picking arbitrary examples that don't have anything to do with the central thesis. "Why is Ike a heavyweight but Rosalina and Mewtwo aren't?" Umm I dunno I guess because those two things have literally nothing to do with each-other?

Problem: If Ike was made heavy first because of Ragnell's weight, what about Mewtwo and Rosalina to stay true to the canon? If the decision was made later on for balance, then thst means Ike was planned to be slow from the beginning

 

[Dinoman96]

Is it possible for an extremely strong and fast character to even be remotely balanced? Are there any Smash characters like that?

The closest I can think of is Little Mac, and he's the guy with, you know, an utterly worthless air game. If he had good aerials and recovery in addition to his ferocious ground game, he'd be kinda broken.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Is it possible for an extremely strong and fast character to even be remotely balanced? Are there any Smash characters like that?

The closest I can think of is Little Mac, and he's the guy with, you know, an utterly worthless air game. If he had good aerials and recovery, in addition to his ferocious ground game, he'd be kinda broken.

I'm not saying Ike should be brutally strong AND mind-blowingly quick, I'm bothered with how Ike's that diffirent from FE. I'm fine with Ike's playstyle, I just don't think it fits him being slow yet brutal

 

[A Distant Demon]

Is it possible for an extremely strong and fast character to even be remotely balanced? Are there any Smash characters like that?

The closest I can think of is Little Mac, and he's the guy with, you know, an utterly worthless air game. If he had good aerials and recovery, in addition to his ferocious ground game, he'd be kinda broken.

Thats kind of the point. Mobility and strength are most of the game other than projectile game. If someone is fast and syrong balancr issues occur

Hence little mac having a wrak air game to balance out the fact he is fast and strong. Its prety much a balnce or on or the other


Why would mewtwo and rosalina be heavy anyway? Mewtwo is kind of sort of fragile looking and rosalina is literally floating.

 

[Wintropy]

Problem: If Ike was made heavy first because of Ragnell's weight, what about Mewtwo and Rosalina to stay true to the canon? If the decision was made later on for balance, then thst means Ike was planned to be slow from the beginning

When are Rosalina and Mewtwo ever explicitly stated to be heavyweight individuals? Yeah, they don't exactly move around much and Mewtwo's Pokédex entry proves that he's not exactly a pushover or anything, but why on earth would that translate to "martial tank"?

And yeah, of course Ike was planned to be heavy from the beginning. BECAUSE THAT'S HOW GAME BALANCE WORKS. You don't just take a character who's super fast, super strong, super agile and super durable in their source material and have them fight the exact same way in a game that's supposed to have an essential tenet of balance to it: that's just awful design, and it ensures that there's no point in even playing the game because who could possibly beat the unbreakable killing machine?

There's also the fact that Ike is designed as a contrast to Marth: the latter is a graceful and lithe swordfighter whose style resembles fencing, a sport traditionally favoured by nobility and those of well-heeled upbringing; contrast that with Ike, a mercenary who doesn't have a trace of royal blood in him and who learned to fight from his father, a homespun hero that made a living off of getting his hands dirty and cracking skulls for coin. The two styles are naturally going to be very different, and this is reflected in how they fight. The differences are further hewn in Smash, wherein Marth is the fast, athletic swordfighter and Ike is the brash, brutal warrior, the latter an archetype that had never appeared in Smash before Brawl.

tl;dr - Why is Ike a heavyweight? Because it works, and that's that.

 

[MoveMan1]

He's not that slow. And his range and quick draw make up for it.

 

[Wintropy]

He's not that slow. And his range and quick draw make up for it.

This.

Ike isn't even nearly as sluggish as people make him out to be. He just requires patience and a good setup. He's pretty impressive once he gets going.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

He's not that slow. And his range and quick draw make up for it.

But Ike is pretty fast in FE, THAT'S what I'm referring to

When are Rosalina and Mewtwo ever explicitly stated to be heavyweight individuals? Yeah, they don't exactly move around much and Mewtwo's Pokédex entry proves that he's not exactly a pushover or anything, but why on earth would that translate to "martial tank"?

And yeah, of course Ike was planned to be heavy from the beginning. BECAUSE THAT'S HOW GAME BALANCE WORKS. You don't just take a character who's super fast, super strong, super agile and super durable in their source material and have them fight the exact same way in a game that's supposed to have an essential tenet of balance to it: that's just awful design, and it ensures that there's no point in even playing the game because who could possibly beat the unbreakable killing machine?

There's also the fact that Ike is designed as a contrast to Marth: the latter is a graceful and lithe swordfighter whose style resembles fencing, a sport traditionally favoured by nobility and those of well-heeled upbringing; contrast that with Ike, a mercenary who doesn't have a trace of royal blood in him and who learned to fight from his father, a homespun hero that made a living off of getting his hands dirty and cracking skulls for coin. The two styles are naturally going to be very different, and this is reflected in how they fight. The differences are further hewn in Smash, wherein Marth is the fast, athletic swordfighter and Ike is the brash, brutal warrior, the latter an archetype that had never appeared in Smash before Brawl.

tl;dr - Why is Ike a heavyweight? Because it works, and that's that.

I used Rosalina and Mewtwo as heavyweight examples because Mewtwo is canonically the heaviest pokemon in smash and Rosalina is a ****ing heavyweight in Mario games

 

[Wintropy]

But Ike is pretty fast in FE, THAT'S what I'm referring to

And he's not in Smash.

Because Smash is not Fire Emblem.

I used Rosalina and Mewtwo as heavyweight examples because Mewtwo is canonically the heaviest pokemon in smash and Rosalina is a ****ing heavyweight in Mario games

Right, right. Rosalina is a heavyweight in the Mario series because of balance.

She's a lightweight in Smash for the same reason.

 

[A Distant Demon]

But Ike is pretty fast in FE, THAT'S what I'm referring to

I used Rosalina and Mewtwo as heavyweight examples because Mewtwo is canonically the heaviest pokemon in smash and Rosalina is a ****ing heavyweight in Mario games

So accurate portrayls part 2 instead of basing them on how they would logically act?

And he's not in Smash.

Because Smash is not Fire Emblem.



Right, right. Rosalina is a heavyweight in the Mario series because of balance.

She's a lightweight in Smash for the same reason.

Also these

 

[Frostwraith]

Some people would be better off learning some game design principles...

Sometimes characters have to be tweaked to work in other game genres. If it means defying some canon traits, so be it. Gameplay is always more important.

 

[Wolfie557]

But Ike is pretty fast in FE, THAT'S what I'm referring to

I used Rosalina and Mewtwo as heavyweight examples because Mewtwo is canonically the heaviest pokemon in smash and Rosalina is a ****ing heavyweight in Mario games

One phrase:

Smash Bros. is not cannon.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

And he's not in Smash.

Because Smash is not Fire Emblem.



Right, right. Rosalina is a heavyweight in the Mario series because of balance.

She's a lightweight in Smash for the same reason.

Smash isn't FE? True, but again, if Sakurai is going to be 'as accurate as possible' then why change it? And about Rosalina being light for the sake of balance. According to this

And yeah, of course Ike was planned to be heavy from the beginning. BECAUSE THAT'S HOW GAME BALANCE WORKS

It means they did it from the beginning and another thing about balance. Things change in development because of balance, meaning if they make a character too light, they make said character heavier or boost their other things. By saying "Because it's smash and not their game" you are also saying it doesn't matter if something is true to the canon in smash. At least you won't defend Monado Buster...

 

[A Distant Demon]

you are also saying it doesn't matter if something is true to the canon in smash. At least you won't defend Monado Buster...

Because it doesnt matter. Because smash isnt canon. And game balance requires it to be. If it was canon mewtwo would 1 shot most characters and ness wouldnt have a moveset

 

[Wintropy]

Smash isn't FE? True, but again, if Sakurai is going to be 'as accurate as possible' then why change it? And about Rosalina being light for the sake of balance. According to this

He's not being as accurate as possible.

Stop using that (awful) Ridley excuse to ironically faux-rationalise everything Sakurai does.

It means they did it from the beginning and another thing about balance. Things change in development because of balance, meaning if they make a character too light, they make said character heavier or boost their other things. By saying "Because it's smash and not their game" you are also saying it doesn't matter if something is true to the canon in smash. At least you won't defend Monado Buster...

Umm, no?

I'm saying that it's redundant to make a fuss over why Ike isn't 100% true to the source material when the source material would not work in Smash.

You're right that things are tweaked throughout the development process to better balance the game, but you're missing the point of game design if you think the developers would suddenly say, "Oh, whoops, Rosalina's too light now, better make Ike faster to make up for it." Characters don't do a full 180 over the course of their development: they have a basic idea in mind and the character, and the rest of the roster relative to that character, is balanced from that essential standard.

And where are you getting this "canon doesn't matter because it's not canon" argument? I never said that: I said that you can't compare FE Ike to Smash Ike and expect them to be absolutely verbatim ports, because this is a very different style of game and exceptions have to be made for the sake of balance. Canon and game design have absolutely nothing to do with each-other, your argument is just drawing my statement to an absurd extreme to try and prove a point that you're not fully grasping in the first place. Canon is important up to a point - and yet if we had everybody true to their source material, there would be no roster, since it'd just be a toss-up between Ganondorf, Palutena, Rosalina, Mewtwo, etc.

Also the whole Monado Buster controversy is just silly. I never got why people make a big deal about it.

 

[Pakky]

Other than the few mentioned here who else is a flagship leader in a genre of video games? I want to say that sports games are missing, but then, you have the mario cast so I don't know how that pans out.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Because it doesnt matter. Because smash isnt canon. And game balance requires it to be. If it was canon mewtwo would 1 shot most characters and ness wouldnt have a moveset

I understand the need for balance. I get why Mewtwo was made light despite not being good in Melee, I just don't get why being 'as accurate as possible' is soooooo important if you're willing to change things up for a different playstyle and keeping said playstyle balanced. For instance, Ike's brutal, give him attacks with decent strength but not as strong as it is now and make him quick, Ike can then rushdown on enemies to strike like a savage

 

[Frostwraith]

Smash isn't FE? True, but again, if Sakurai is going to be 'as accurate as possible' then why change it? And about Rosalina being light for the sake of balance. According to this

It means they did it from the beginning and another thing about balance. Things change in development because of balance, meaning if they make a character too light, they make said character heavier or boost their other things. By saying "Because it's smash and not their game" you are also saying it doesn't matter if something is true to the canon in smash. At least you won't defend Monado Buster...

You act like all characters have to be exactly like their original game counterparts, when it's literally impossible to do that when taking characters from different genres of games.

Liberties have to be taken in order to have well-designed game.

What Sakurai means with "accurate portrayals" is not defying the essential traits of a character when taking those from their original games to Smash.

He has gone on record to state that he consults with the creators of those characters to point what can and what shouldn't be changed from source material. This is one of the trials in creating characters for Smash, as both parties (Sakurai and the owners of the characters) must agree on how the character is designed and portrayed in Smash Bros.

Sakurai worked with Game Freak to design Greninja. He worked with Eiji Aonuma to design the Zelda characters back in Brawl. Sakurai stated that third-party companies oversee the use of their IPs in Smash.

People say "Sakurai this" and "Sakurai that", thinking like he does everything in the game, when it couldn't be further from the truth.

 

[Dinoman96]

I get the feeling that TehEpicRyuga is still upset over Ridley.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I'm saying that it's redundant to make a fuss over why Ike isn't 100% true to the source material when the source material would not work in Smash.

You're right that things are tweaked throughout the development process to better balance the game, but you're missing the point of game design if you think the developers would suddenly say, "Oh, whoops, Rosalina's too light now, better make Ike faster to make up for it." Characters don't do a full 180 over the course of their development: they have a basic idea in mind and the character, and the rest of the roster relative to that character, is balanced from that essential standard.

And where are you getting this "canon doesn't matter because it's not canon" argument? I never said that: I said that you can't compare FE Ike to Smash Ike and expect them to be absolutely verbatim ports, because this is a very different style of game and exceptions have to be made for the sake of balance. Canon and game design have absolutely nothing to do with each-other, your argument is just drawing my statement to an absurd extreme to try and prove a point that you're not fully grasping in the first place. Canon is important up to a point - and yet if we had everybody true to their source material, there would be no roster, since it'd just be a toss-up between Ganondorf, Palutena, Rosalina, Mewtwo, etc.

Also the whole Monado Buster controversy is just silly. I never got why people make a big deal about it.

Because Ike is quite inaccurate, Ftilt not even being his, Eruption and Great Aether being non existent in FE and how his stats are different.
When did I imply "X too light, speed Y up"? I meant "X is too light, let's see give X a bit more weight and see how well it goes"
I'm ranting about "canon doesn't matter because it's not canon" because about 3 people here just said that.
Monado Buster- Powerful single-use sword strike to deal damage
Monado Enchant- Deal extra damage to Mechon
Which one would you use to make Shulk's moves do more damage? The move that's a stat buff, or the powerful hit?

I get the feeling that TehEpicRyuga is still upset over Ridley.

That's true, yes, but there are lots of things that are questionable regardless if Ridley's playable or not,

You act like all characters have to be exactly like their original game counterparts, when it's literally impossible to do that when taking characters from different genres of games.

Liberties have to be taken in order to have well-designed game.

What Sakurai means with "accurate portrayals" is not defying the essential traits of a character when taking those from their original games to Smash.

He has gone on record to state that he consults with the creators of those characters to point what can and what shouldn't be changed from source material. This is one of the trials in creating characters for Smash, as both parties (Sakurai and the owners of the characters) must agree on how the character is designed and portrayed in Smash Bros.

Sakurai worked with Game Freak to design Greninja. He worked with Eiji Aonuma to design the Zelda characters back in Brawl. Sakurai stated that third-party companies oversee the use of their IPs in Smash.

People say "Sakurai this" and "Sakurai that", thinking like he does everything in the game, when it couldn't be further from the truth.

Wasn't the Zelda thing strictly getting concept art for Sheik?

 

[A Distant Demon]

I understand the need for balance. I get why Mewtwo was made light despite not being good in Melee, I just don't get why being 'as accurate as possible' is soooooo important if you're willing to change things up for a different playstyle and keeping said playstyle balanced. For instance, Ike's brutal, give him attacks with decent strength but not as strong as it is now and make him quick, Ike can then rushdown on enemies to strike like a savage

So instead of doing something unique with a heavy swordsman make him something else. Why let canon stop a unique moveset (like ikes) from happening.

making a character interesting >making them canon.

Because Ike is quite inaccurate, Ftilt not even being his, Eruption and Great Aether being non existent in FE and how his stats are different.
When did I imply "X too light, speed Y up"? I meant "X is too light, let's see give X a bit more weight and see how well it goes"
I'm ranting about "canon doesn't matter because it's not canon" because about 3 people here just said that.
Monado Buster- Powerful single-use sword strike to deal damage
Monado Enchant- Deal extra damage to Mechon
Which one would you use to make Shulk's moves do more damage? The move that's a stat buff, or the powerful hit?

Canon DOESNT matter though. Its why zss exists. Characters are made primarily to be unique while using their games as a guideline.. its not set in stone ans thats why these characters are so fun

 

[Dinoman96]

NeoGAF's Ryce once again made a fantastic post on this subject.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=155563156&postcount=361

Sakurai’s approach to character design is building a move set around a core principle, and sometimes pre-existing attacks fit that principle, but he rarely goes out of his way to include a referential move if it doesn’t jell with everything else. Mario, Donkey Kong, Kirby, and a bunch of others have original attacks where referential attacks could just as easily be placed. Donkey Kong doesn’t throw barrels because he’s supposed to be a close range power archetype in the vein of Zangief or E. Honda, and Mario doesn’t use a whole lot of power-ups because he’s supposed to be an all-around beginner character like Ryu.

I think Sakurai’s vision for Smash Bros. is “how would these characters fight if they were thrown onto a battlefield,” and that doesn’t always mean a character is going to resort to attacks they’ve used in the past. With the exception of certain clones, every single mannerism in a given character’s move set fits their style and personality to a T. I’m not giving Sakurai a free pass here (changing Wario’s side smash still troubles me), but I often see people criticizing Smash Bros. for “missing” certain attacks when the reality is that the characters play the way they do for a reason and that Sakurai is anything but lazy. Coming up with a new motion from scratch isn’t any easier than watching a few minutes of old game footage on YouTube. There’s nothing wrong with the fan-made move set approach of inharmoniously throwing in every single reference to the source material for the sake of it; it’s just that there are different approaches to design that are no better or worse than each other.

I apologize for the rant, but it seems like everyone focuses on the two or three characters whose move sets aren’t entirely up to snuff and ignores the majority of the roster that is faithfully depicted. It creates this false impression that Sakurai is bad at what he does or that he needs to step down, and that bothers me. I feel the same way about people who think the roster is terrible because it’s missing their most-wanted newcomer.

 

[Frostwraith]

Wasn't the Zelda thing strictly getting concept art for Sheik?

I'll just leave this here:

GI: Have you been consulted at all for the usage of Link or Sheik or Ganondorf for Smash Bros. Brawl?

Aonuma: I’ve been working with Sakurai for a very long time with this new Smash Bros., because the Wii came out and when discussion for a new Smash Bros. took place nobody could think of anyone other than Sakurai working on it. He was kind of the default, and I was very happy to hear that he would be working on it. Actually, my designers did work on the designs for Sheik and Link and Ganondorf. So they submitted the initial designs, and so it would fit in the Smash Bros. Brawl environment, they’ve had to tweak some of the designs. But Sakurai has brought those altered designs to NCL. We’re working very closely with the team of Smash Bros. Brawl to make sure the characters look their best.

Bolded the more relevant parts.

Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20070818...com/News/Story/200708/N07.0802.1741.54921.htm

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Canon DOESNT matter though

Real ****ing convincing argument, say this, when argued at, say "Why are you thinking people say this?" and say it again. Ike could still be unique with speed and less strength

 

[Frostwraith]

Canon matters, but it's not the only thing that matters.

There has to be a primary design for the characters. A defined foundation. Is this character going to be a lightweight or heavyweight? Fragile speedster, mighty glacier or glass cannon?

It's basically going from a general gist to working with which moves from source material have synergy with the primary design.