Character Discussion Thread

[Strider_Bond00J]

On the note of Zelda characters, if characters like Impa or Ghirahim become more mainstream and have more frequent appearances in the series in active roles, would people be more likely to consider them as Smash candidates?

 

[Diddy Kong]

On the note of Zelda characters, should characters like Impa or Ghirahim become more mainstream and have more frequent appearances in the series in active roles, would people be more likely to consider them as Smash candidates?

Impa should've already been qualified with Skyward Sword. Am all for them both becoming more prominent in the series however, as they had an awesome rivality in Skyward Sword I felt. And both could add more dept to the story line as well.

 

[Frostwraith]

On the note of Zelda characters, if characters like Impa or Ghirahim become more mainstream and have more frequent appearances in the series in active roles, would people be more likely to consider them as Smash candidates?

I'd say that, yes.

Right now, the character with the most recurring roles besides the Triforce trio is Tingle.

After him, there's Impa, who in Smash would have to be based on Ocarina of Time, Skyward Sword and/or Hyrule Warriors in order to be viable.

All in all, I don't think a Zelda newcomer is very likely, to be honest.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Ocarina of Time, Skyward Sword and Hyrule Warriors as a base would be perfect actually.

Ocarina of Time: Gives her ninja weaponary which she used in the manga, Deku Nuts, and maybe for gigs and giggles give her Zelda's lullaby as a taunt or victory pose.
Skyward Sword: The barrier obviously, as well magical attacks, Timeshift Orbs, high jumping ability, and time-based abilities (as she's a time traveller).
Hyrule Warriors: The giant blade and naginata movesets obviously.

Take note that this is already a far better base for a moveset than anything that and have. And it'd be right about on par with what has.

 

[Wintropy]

ITT: People playing Captain Hindsight and rehearsing ancient arguments.

Does it really matter what's happened in the past? Why bother dredging up old scars just to pick at them?

Let it die.

Re: Ganon, I don't even care for Ganon as a character, but it seems to me like using "HE'S TOO BIG!" as an argument is clutching for reasons to be contradictory. He only needs to be a little bit taller than Ganondorf, surely his enormous muscles and bulky stature would make up for his apparent lack of vertical height?

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I'm hoping Zelda gets a newcomer, just so it can once again be equal to Pokémon in terms of playable characters.

 

[FalKoopa]

I'm not too big on Ganon, partly because the Zelda section would essentially become 2 Links, 2 Zeldas and 2 Ganons.

Tingle and Impa are better choices imo.

 

[BKupa666]

Ganon would be cool to see (although his inclusion doesn't magically make Falcondorf "okay," mind you), and would give a nice sense of structure to the Zelda cast, with two forms of its three main characters.

In terms of his size, I see where the concern comes from, but at the same time, I look at boundaries with Smash movesets as things to stomp on and challenge whenever possible. It's why I'd like to see K. Rool outweigh Bowser if/when he ever joins in. A wide hunched-over Pig Ganon could be great, so long as its hulking nature is still conveyed (same way Ridley need not be his boss size so long as he's still larger/wider than Samus).

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I think when Sakurai turns down a character, it's more because he feels he couldn't do the character justice in his mind. He tries to make characters as accurate as possible, while taking liberties if he feels the need to, or if he has to. However, liberties =/= big design changes.

By that I mean, if certain characters are known for being certain sizes, I feel as if he would want to stay true in some fashion. With Ganondorf being cut down a wee bit, he still maintains his appearance of being larger than Link overall. That's how he should be. If I'm not mistaken, Ganondorf is roughly on par with Bowser in height in Smash Bros.

So now, we take Beast Ganon (Miss Piggy Ganon ) and try to do the same thing. The problem is that Miss Piggy Ganon is meant to be a more brutal, hulking and large version of Ganondorf. Making him into a similar size to his human form (Gerudo anyway) takes away from his former role. He is meant as a transformation from Ganondorf for the purpose of being incredibly strong and intimidating. THAT'S what I think the real problem is.

I'm not trying to say, "I am become Sakurai, destroyer of dreams." I can't read the man's mind (kinda wish I could), but he didn't **** can Ridley simply because he was too big. It was because he felt making him a boss would be better for him, rather than shoehorning him into the game.
---
Anyway, hope we get a Direct soon. Getting antsy for a Mewtwo reveal!

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

On the subject of Ridley, though; Ridley is large, yes, but he's by no means the size of any modern Ganon incarnation; he's actually (using Super Metroid as a baseline) in-around 12 feet tall, about the same size as a Tyrannosaurus. Ganon is, in Twilight Princess, a gargantuan beast that's probably around 18-20 feet tall and 9-10 feet wide, using Link as a basis. Bowser is generally 7-8 feet tall and 8-9 feet wide (which, to Ridley, would be about stomach level).

What really makes Ridley seem so gargantuan is his enormous wingspan, not his body itself; if Ridley is 12 feet tall, his wingspan would have to be around twice that; so Ridley's wingspan is approximately 24 feet in width. If we estimate Ridley's actual body at about 8 feet wide, that gives him a total width of 32 feet with fully stretched wings.
Considering Ridley tends to flare his wings a fair amount, that probably contributes to why he looks so much bigger than he actually is; it's a tactic to intimidate Samus. Take away his enormous wingspan and Ridley becomes a supersized cheetah on steroids; lithe and tall-legged.

 

[BKupa666]

We're talking about the Pig wizard form from the older games, not Beast Ganon from Twilight Princess, right? The latter, I'd have trouble seeing outside of a boss character mode. The former, however, could definitely become a hunched-over heavyweight, akin to Brawl Bowser, just a bit wider and a hair taller. I know concept art exists depicting him as larger, and he's a stronger transformation anyway, but since Ganondorf is still just a moderately-wide humanoid by Smash terms, I still think Ganon could look sufficiently brutish next to him.

Agreed with @ Scoliosis Jones assessment on Sakurai and size, it's just whether one man should have all that power (to put it in terms of that one hip-hop song). One man determines what characters get in based on how he personally "feels," and based off of Greninja being mapped out in one night, one man also decides how they're represented in game. Maybe a team approach is idealistic when time constraints are a concern, but they'd still be nice to see where controversial characters are involved.

 

[Yoship]

I think when Sakurai turns down a character, it's more because he feels he couldn't do the character justice in his mind. He tries to make characters as accurate as possible, while taking liberties if he feels the need to, or if he has to. However, liberties =/= big design changes.

By that I mean, if certain characters are known for being certain sizes, I feel as if he would want to stay true in some fashion. With Ganondorf being cut down a wee bit, he still maintains his appearance of being larger than Link overall. That's how he should be. If I'm not mistaken, Ganondorf is roughly on par with Bowser in height in Smash Bros.

So now, we take Beast Ganon (Miss Piggy Ganon ) and try to do the same thing. The problem is that Miss Piggy Ganon is meant to be a more brutal, hulking and large version of Ganondorf. Making him into a similar size to his human form (Gerudo anyway) takes away from his former role. He is meant as a transformation from Ganondorf for the purpose of being incredibly strong and intimidating. THAT'S what I think the real problem is.

I'm not trying to say, "I am become Sakurai, destroyer of dreams." I can't read the man's mind (kinda wish I could), but he didn't **** can Ridley simply because he was too big. It was because he felt making him a boss would be better for him, rather than shoehorning him into the game.
---
Anyway, hope we get a Direct soon. Getting antsy for a Mewtwo reveal!

I'm not too sure if he tries to make it EXTREMELY accurate, considering the Levin sword isn't a melee weapon, and you can't use Nosferatu as a tactician (default My Unit class in Fire Emblem Awakening)

 

[BluePikmin11]

The problem with Ridley is trying to balance him.

It's really hard to maintain a balance with his fast air speed and attacks, fierce power, and heavyweight status Ridley is well known for; as it could potentially break enjoyment of the game if he's unbalanced. Pig Ganon doesn't have a sheer problem with balance, he's not known to be a fast OP character in his games like Sephiroth (best example I could provide) that would require heavy balancing while staying true to his character.

 

[BKupa666]

To clarify before anyone jumps to rebut my assertion, I know that Sakurai doesn't just snap his fingers and POOF characters into the game. There are numerous companies involved in approving character portrayals (although, have they ever not approved a character depiction to our knowledge?), and a recent interview features a bit about how Sakurai allows
for some team creativity, including a few ideas through that weren't necessarily his first choices. That being said, he still gets the final say in everything, when idealistically, splitting the power of director between two or maybe three individuals with different backgrounds and views could be beneficial in the long run (certainly as a checks and balance system on ideas like tripping).

 

[A Distant Demon]

The problem with Ridley is trying to balance him.

It's really hard to maintain a balance with his fast air speed and attacks, fierce power, and heavyweight status Ridley is well known for; as it could potentially break enjoyment of the game if he's unbalanced. Pig Ganon doesn't have a sheer problem with balance, he's not known to be a fast OP character in his games like Sephiroth (best example I could provide) that would require heavy balancing while staying true to his character.

Balance is certainly not the issue. Nerfs exist for a reason.


range speed power etc can all be changed lol

 

[BluePikmin11]

It can, but then it wouldn't stay true to the character, which is something Sakurai talked about before.

 

[Wintropy]

The problem with Ridley is trying to balance him.

It's really hard to maintain a balance with his fast air speed and attacks, fierce power, and heavyweight status Ridley is well known for; as it could potentially break enjoyment of the game if he's unbalanced. Pig Ganon doesn't have a sheer problem with balance, he's not known to be a fast OP character in his games like Sephiroth (best example I could provide) that would require heavy balancing while staying true to his character.

Ridley's not even that heavy. Or that big. He's fast and strong and can fly, in addition to plasma breath, claws, talons and a prehensile stinger-equipped tail. But he's not a heavyweight brute.

That may sound imbalanced on paper, but that's to wantonly overlook the fact that there are plenty of other characters that are similarly balanced in Smash whilst staying "true to character".

Enormous brute that's almost always invulnerable to everything except external forces (lava pits, explosive mines, etc)
Can fly indefinitely in addition to everything else he can already do
Is literally a deity
Can potentially be fast, powerful, accurate and have damn good luck
Nigh-indestructible, can and does obliterate planets on a regular basis
The fastest thing alive, should logically be ripping through opponents like they're tissue paper
Can KO enemies with a single hit (PK Flash)
Fast, strong, has access to a near-infinite repertoire of powers, can crush enemies with a single jump
Super strong, super fast, super durable, super handsome...what can't he do?

I'll leave aside such characters as DK and Ganondorf since their "true to character" depiction is sketchy, but that's still a pretty solid list of characters whose innate powers have been balanced to fit into Smash. Arguing that Ridley is "unbalanced" because he's fast, strong and can fly is just looking for reasons to be spiteful.

He's almost never shown fighting on the ground, and for good reason: he sucks at it. So make him the anti-Mac, or a bigger and scarier Jigglypuff: awful on the ground, a terror in the air. Make him a glass cannon, fast and strong, but he breaks with a single punch.

None of this is new. Claiming "it won't work because reasons" isn't a sufficient validation for why he shouldn't appear. Offer alternative perspectives. Determine how to resolve these issues rather than seeing them as insurmountable stumbling blocks.

It can, but then it wouldn't stay true to the character, which is something Sakurai talked about before.

Now you're just parroting Sakurai to prove your point.

Almost nobody in Smash is portrayed with absolute accuracy, and I will provide a detailed list if you would like me to.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Ridley could just be a combo-glass-cannon.

Can both combo and be comboed from here to Zebes.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

He's almost never shown fighting on the ground, and for good reason: he sucks at it. So make him the anti-Mac, or a bigger and scarier Jigglypuff: awful on the ground, a terror in the air. Make him a glass cannon, fast and strong, but he breaks with a single punch.

Actually, Ridley's about as competent on the ground as he is in the air, if we use Other M, Metroid Prime and Prime 3: Corruption. But making him a Lightning Bruiser with deceptively light weight for his size is the perfect way to balance him out; he's fast and powerful, but he can be sent flying easier than other fighters.

 

[Wintropy]

Actually, Ridley's about as competent on the ground as he is in the air, if we use Other M, Metroid Prime and Prime 3: Corruption. But making him a Lightning Bruiser with deceptively light weight for his size is the perfect way to balance him out; he's fast and powerful, but he can be sent flying easier than other fighters.

Yes, but he's not "known" for that, which is apparently what we're going for here.

C'mon, Dast, gotta stay true to character!

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Sakurai doesn't care about Ridley's kind of attacks when he gives him the clawy powah swipe as a stage boss.

 

[Substitution]

If we're getting any Zelda rep, it needs to be Octorok.
After all, where's the minion love?

 

[Chandeelure]

Super strong, super fast, super durable, super handsome...what can't he do?

Show symphaty.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Yes, but he's not "known" for that, which is apparently what we're going for here.

C'mon, Dast, gotta stay true to character!

Yeah, like how we're staying true to Sonic's character by making him run at....not-sonic speeds. Or how we're staying true to Ganondorf's character by....not letting him use a sword at all in his default moveset. Or how we're staying true to Olimar's character by...only letting him have 3 or 6 Pikmin at a time.

Something tells me Sakurai wants/wanted Ridley in as a playable character, but every time he's thought about it he's worried about the potential of losing sales and/or not doing Ridley as we've envisioned him playing and so he just leaves him out each time or puts him in some other role that he hopes won't make him into a base-breaker. I mean, Sakurai originally planned for Ridley to be an Assist Trophy in Brawl, so....maybe he was going to be playable this time but ended up as a stage boss due to time constraints?

Sakurai doesn't care about Ridley's kind of attacks when he gives him the clawy powah swipe as a stage boss.

He seems to care a lot about Yellow Devil's attacks, though....

 

[Substitution]

Oh come on guys, Ridley ain't that big. I mean, look at him:

That's maybe what? Olimar? Kirby? Hell, he probably needs to be bigger.

 

[Deleted member]

Oh come on guys, Ridley ain't that big. I mean, look at him:

That's maybe what? Olimar? Kirby? Hell, he probably needs to be bigger.

We need to go deeper....

 

[Substitution]

We need to go deeper....

You sure? Okay then...

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

So all this talk about Ridley and playable status made me do this;

I am so. so. sorry!

 

[Deleted member]

You sure? Okay then...

You know, I've always wondered why Ridley's sprite was blue in the manual....

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

But is there any other reason apart from curiosity?

You what, to tell the truth about ridley i do believe the interview of sakurai on ridley balance is the problem.

There are some errors with the reasoning, of ridley is the weird thing. (Exspect the spec can break the game part)



The shrink the wings so he can't fly thing

How did get playable then? Charizard flys around just as much as ridley does in the anime. (Not all the time.)

Plus i do recall ridley not always relieing on air attacks, he does just as much ground attacks as air attacks.


The size balance of too big.

But is the reverse of that hes no bigger than a dime.


And the ruin his meneceness part

There are beyond videos and pictures prooving ridley shruken does not ruin his menancing looks.



There thats the only reason its still a little confused.


But I do truely know as long as sakurai is the leader of smash series, ridley is not getting to playable status.

 

[Substitution]

You know, I've always wondered why Ridley's sprite was blue in the manual....

Most likely the same reason they were able to get away with nudity in the Kid Icarus NES manual.

 

[Dinoman96]

Sakurai doesn't care about Ridley's kind of attacks when he gives him the clawy powah swipe as a stage boss.

Um, Ridley does attack with his claws in the boss fight with him in Other M, which the Pyrosphere is obviously based on.

 

[Kalimdori]

You laugh, yet you completely fail to understand the meaning of the picture; that's Bowser's natural size (and it's not shorter than in Smash, what in the Hell are you smoking?).

I don't really care (or respect for that matter) for this argument enough to continue, especially arguing the natural size of Bowser. Which you are trying to prove using a picture that was made 7 years ago that I can't even find an official source for. (But you found it on Mario wiki, so I'm sure it must be true)

You sure? Okay then...

Am I the only one who would be perfectly fine with this incarnation of Ridley in Smash?

 

[BKupa666]

People like to say Smash fans have no idea what they're talking about in terms of characters. While I disagree with that in terms of who would make for quality characters, I couldn't agree more in terms of balance.

Basically, groups of fans spout off all the potential strengths a character could have and none of the weaknesses, and act as though that's grounds for writing the character off as "broken," and therefore "impossible." As the protagonist of AoStH says, "that's no good."

Here, let's apply that lens to some other characters who didn't quite turn out that way.

: Dude, Bowser is super heavy, has amazing range with his fireballs and hammers, his fire breath would be like a Fire Flower he could use at ANY time, has a spiky shell for amazing defense, has insane power and jumps incredibly high. Impossible to balance!

: Oh man, Mewtwo's the strongest Pokemon in existence (at the time, anyway) who's also got a ton of projectiles, is fast, heavy, and can also fly/hover indefinitely, which means he'd also be an aerial god. Impossible to balance!

: Ganondorf has the Triforce of Power AND a sword AND dark magic projectiles AND charges at you really fast in Twilight Princess, plus he also flies/hovers indefinitely in OoT. Impossible to balance!

/: They're a literal god(dess), which means they have nearly unlimited power and speed and weight and stuff, plus ranged weapons. Impossible to balance!

Really, it seems as though the vast majority of people bringing up balance against character options are either oblivious to how balance works or know better and just want to tar&feather characters they personally don't like.

 

[IsmaR]

I would argue balance isn't so much an actual issue as it is a perceived one.

Having a character "stay/be true to themselves" is respectable logic until you start digging at what that actually means/has meant in the past for other characters. For simplicity's sake, I'll use the comparison of Mewtwo and other Pokémon. Not even counting anime/movies in which Mewtwo is made to be comparable to DBZ-esque/equivalent of eldritch abomination, balancing from Pokémon already indicates short of obvious level handicap, Mewtwo would mop the floor with any of its same-series adversaries, not even factoring stuff like max potential/training (e.g. - wild Lv. 70 Mewtwo). Yet his balance in Smash allows for it to be both a "fair" match, regardless of everyone knowing Pikachu would not stand a realistic chance of defeating it on an "even" playing field whilst staying true to the canon source material. I don't see it as any different from stuff like Wolverine being able to Magneto in MvC, or Agitha being able wreak just as much havoc as Ganondorf in Hyrule Warriors.

I accept the "boss = true to character" thing for Ridley all the same, but I do believe if Sakurai put his mind to it,he'd be a little slow *laughs* balance would be as much an issue as it would be for all characters.

 

[Kenith]

You sure? Okay then...

Speaking of NES Ridleuy, apparently this was what Ganon looked like in the original Zelda...

*pukes*
Why though?

 

[Substitution]

Speaking of NES Ridleuy, apparently this was what Ganon looked like in the original Zelda...

*pukes*
Why though?

And now we wait 'till this becomes an alt for Ganon.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Speaking of NES Ridleuy, apparently this was what Ganon looked like in the original Zelda...

*pukes*
Why though?

Nobody did this to me!

#LinkisOdysseusconfirmed

I bet MedusaXGanondorf is OTP now.

 

[BluePikmin11]

He's almost never shown fighting on the ground, and for good reason: he sucks at it. So make him the anti-Mac, or a bigger and scarier Jigglypuff: awful on the ground, a terror in the air. Make him a glass cannon, fast and strong, but he breaks with a single punch.

If he was awful in power and speed on the ground and flinched very easily, then it wouldn't feel like Ridley. Ridley is pretty much fearsome in every area whether it be on ground or air.

With Dastardly's example, it wouldn't feel right and natural if Ridley was easy to kill as Jigglypuff.

None of this is new. Claiming "it won't work because reasons" isn't a sufficient validation for why he shouldn't appear. Offer alternative perspectives. Determine how to resolve these issues rather than seeing them as insurmountable stumbling blocks.

They are kind of insurmountable when character portrayal is also in mind.

I think now it's not so much about the moves that prevent Ridley's inclusion, but rather the physical traits. (speed, power, weight are some examples of traits) A few occasion out-of-place moves are fine for creative liberty, but messing with their traits and capabilities for the sake of balance wouldn't Ridley feel and play right, as the traits greatly contribute to the character and their playstyle.

 

[Substitution]

Hypothetically speaking, Sakurai could make him a Mighty Glacier (strong and can take hits, but slow).