Character Discussion Thread

[Deleted member]

Oh yes, that totally doesn't look like bottle of something else. I wonder it would got a T-Rating if he was named 'Vodka Drunkenski'

Shhhhh.
The Ninteninjas will get you.

@GoldenYuiitusin, just gonna say that you're wrong about the Doc thing, at least in the PAL version of Smash 4.

His trophy description specifically states that it's the lab coat that weighs him down. I should know, I've chuckled at it enough times.

There's your problem; I have the US version of Smash 4, and it says nothing about his lab coat. It mentions his MD being the cause, which would tie into the Melee excuse of having a lack of exercise because of his work.

So this little thing?

Please check your facts before telling me I'm wrong, m'kay? :3

Bloody ironic.

So basically, it boils down to this:

MAKE CAPTAIN TOAD'S BACKPACK LIGHTER.

It's that simple. We don't need to arbitrarily redefine the basic mechanics of Smash for the sake of one character; we don't need to make its, and or buts because of one game, even if that game features that element as its central premise. Presumably he's got a lot of stuff to carry in Treasure Tracker, just say that Cee-Tee's done some exercise before Smash and is strong enough to carry its weight in the air now, or that he only brought the essential Smash supplies. Just say that gravity works differently in Smash. Just say anything or offer some reason to justify it, because this argument is just petty and pedantic.

You have this hairbrained scheme in your head that I'm saying Smash has to be worked around just because Captain Toad can't jump, when I'm saying the opposite; Captain Toad would be worked around Smash because he can't jump.
I mean really, think of these questions and answers:

Initial Question: "Why can't Captain Toad jump?" "He's wearing a heavy backpack that prevents him from getting off the ground."

Follow-Up Question: "So how can Captain Toad jump in Smash?"
a. "He uses Jump Blocks to jump." NOTE: I now realize why this idea doesn't work, and it's not for any points you brought up. It's because Jump Blocks don't work that way. You still have to jump off of them; they aren't like springs that bounce you in the air.

b. "He's not wearing the backpack." Arguably the best answer on the list, considering he doesn't really need to wear the backpack at all times, especially when he's in a more combat-centric setting as opposed to an adventuring one.

c. "He's packed only the essential Smash supplies." Only raises further questions. What are "essential Smash supplies"? Why wouldn't they be enough to ground him? What does he actually have in his backpack that keeps him grounded in the first place? etc.
If "essential Smash supplies" also meant "smaller backpack to carry them with", then it'd work IMO.

d. "He's done some exercise and is now strong enough to lift himself into the air with the backpack." Asinine on so many levels.
The biggest one being that since Toads in general are rather low jumpers, Captain Toad being able to go from "no jumping" to "mediocre jumping" (even by Toad standards) would make him worse of an air fighter than Little Mac.

e. "Gravity works different in Smash." This statement is actually accurate, but for not what you think (ergo, inapplicable to the situation): http://www.ssbwiki.com/gravity
Gravity is just the rate it takes for a character to reach their maximum falling speed.

I struggle to justify why this is an issue. It legitimately sounds like people are making excuses to complicate matters for no honest reason or than that "muh yoo-neek-ness". Captain Toad can be unique in plenty of others ways without breaking the entire game. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Yes, because giving him alternative means to jump that don't affect a damn thing in the long run other than giving a reasonable explanation why he's still able to "jump" or taking away the reason why Captain Toad can't jump in the first place (the backpack) in Smash is so ****in' complicated.
And with that, I'm done with this subject. And done with Captain Toad. I tried to be reasonable about the idea and got flak for it just because it wasn't to his fans' liking.

 

[Frostwraith]

A lot of gameplay differences from source games and Smash aren't even explained anyway, though it should be obvious that the reason is due to source games and Smash being different games, thus character design has to adapt to each game.

That way, most RPG characters don't have MP or limited move uses (except for Robin, but even so, his Bronze Sword doesn't wear out). Link can jump anytime (like in Zelda II, a 2D scrolling game, which is what Smash exactly is). Mario can use Fireballs without Fire Flowers.

Canon is disregarded if it harms gameplay.

If Captain Toad is going to be in Smash, he will be able to jump regardless of backpacks, weakness or whatever excuse people make. Because every character in Smash ****ing jumps, because it's part of the game design for Smash. The controls are the same for all characters.

Captain Toad jumping in Smash, but not in his game, would have an easy explanation: different games with different mechanics.

This should be ****ing obvious, but apparently it isn't.

 

[FalKoopa]

Can we talk about something else? This is getting worse than Jumpman. >_>

 

[A Distant Demon]

Let's talk about viridi

have retro characters already been done to death?

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

c. "He's packed only the essential Smash supplies." Only raises further questions. What are "essential Smash supplies"? Why wouldn't they be enough to ground him? What does he actually have in his backpack that keeps him grounded in the first place? etc.
If "essential Smash supplies" also meant "smaller backpack to carry them with", then it'd work IMO.

Because those are some truly hard hitting questions that really need to be addressed.

Let's talk about viridi

have retro characters already been done to death?

I think most people agree that we're probably not going to get any new retro characters as DLC, and that the most likely new ones for the next game would be Takamaru and Mach Rider. That's at least from what I've seen.

 

[BluePikmin11]

"Worse than Jumpman"
There have been worse arguments.

 

[A Distant Demon]

"Worse than Jumpman"
There have been worse arguments.

examples. give them to me.

I can't see arguing over whether or not a character in the game isn't in the game for the sake of muh repping.

 

[IsmaR]

It seems mentioning any character with 'Jump' as a central focus never ends well.

Perhaps a spin-off called Super Jump Bros. can mitigate this.

Otherwise looking in the opposite direction, characters that can't not-jump are far and few. Mayhaps a perma-air fighter with next to no ground game should be explored.

 

[JaidynReiman]

Let's talk about viridi

have retro characters already been done to death?

The only Retro I really want (if she counts as a Retro; since she hasn't appeared in anything except one small cameo in recent years I think she counts) is Lip, honestly. She could be a fairly unique character, represent Nintendo's puzzle game genre and a fairly long-running franchise (Lip herself hasn't appeared recently but her franchise has appeared as recently as 2008), and Panel de Pon is just freaking awesome.


I don't see Assist Trophies happening as DLC at all. I'm also mixed on Mach Rider. But at the same time, I don't think retro's will be DLC either (not even bringing back Ice Climbers), so the only way I see Lip happening is a proper Panel de Pon revival coming soon. (God I wish it would happen.)


Frankly, though, I think Lip is more likely than Mach Rider or Takamaru... but even then I'd say her chances are still slim-to-none.

 

[Wintropy]

This dogmatic approach to sniping other people's arguments leaves me cold. Believe what you will.

 

[A Distant Demon]

It seems mentioning any character with 'Jump' as a central focus never ends well.

Perhaps a spin-off called Super Jump Bros. can mitigate this.

Otherwise looking in the opposite direction, characters that can't not-jump are far and few. Mayhaps a perma-air fighter with next to no ground game should be explored.

gee I wonder where I have heard that before

TBH Ridley would be a more enjoyable time then this.


maybe someone from pilotwings could be a flying character. That game has jetpacks right?

 

[Kenith]

Retros?
Not TECHNICALLY a retro, but is in practice...
Why not Excite Bike?

I mean, it's not like it's the best idea ever or anything, but it totally is.

 

[JaidynReiman]

Retros?
Not TECHNICALLY a retro, but is in practice...
Why not Excitebike?

I mean, it's not like it's the best idea ever or anything, but i totally is.

Excitebike is brought up pretty often. Sakurai dismissed it prior because he couldn't think of an interesting moveset. Mach Rider would be better as he'd have more material to work with and would still represent the Excite series.

 

[Kenith]

Excitebike is brought up pretty often. Sakurai dismissed it prior because he couldn't think of an interesting moveset. Mach Rider would be better as he'd have more material to work with and would still represent the Excite series.

But...he wouldn't. >.>
Also, when did he say this?

 

[Lucimar]

I know this Captain Toad debate is over but I always thought that the Captain could just bounce of springy mushrooms as his jumps similar to how Toad bounces of the mushrooms in his special moves in Mario Sports Mix.

Example:

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Inb4 an Excitebiker vs. Mach Rider argument ensues.

 

[FalKoopa]

"Worse than Jumpman"
There have been worse arguments.

I meant the atmosphere, not the arguments.

 

[Kenith]

Inb4 an Excitebiker vs. Mach Rider argument ensues.

Please don't. >.>
I'm guessing that Sakurai said he couldn't of a moveset for Excitebiker for...Melee?
At this point that tidbit seems...rather irrelevant.

 

[FalKoopa]

Isn't Mach Rider's design basically a darker and edgier Excitebiker.

I'd still take Excitebiker for being a larger series and having the NES game as a kid.

 

[RobinOnDrugs]

Inb4 an Excitebiker vs. Mach Rider argument ensues.

Honestly, either one of those characters would be nice for DLC or at least as newcomers for the next game.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Sakurai said that he couldn't think of a way to make Excite Biker realistically jump...... and it all comes back to JUMPING again.

 

[A Distant Demon]

I haven't played wither game and barely know either character. ignorance is bliss

mach rider's melee trophy makes him look cooler at least.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Sakurai said that he couldn't think of a way to make Excite Biker realistically jump...... and it all comes back to JUMPING again.

You know, talking about unlikely Mario characters like Geno and Daisy would be better than running into another jumping controversy again.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Hey wait a minute, Sakurai said that he didn't make Excite Biker playable because he couldn't think of a way to make him realistically jump. Wouldn't that mean that making him a fighter that couldn't jump was out of the question?

 

[FalKoopa]

Sakurai said that he couldn't think of a way to make Excite Biker realistically jump...... and it all comes back to JUMPING again.

To be exact, he had said that he would have to install ramps for him to move around the stage... but ramps are used for jumping in Excitebike.

Well, I suggest that we jump to another topic.

 

[JaidynReiman]

Hey wait a minute, Sakurai said that he didn't make Excite Biker playable because he couldn't think of a way to make him realistically jump. Wouldn't that mean that making him a fighter that couldn't jump was out of the question?

The problem being that Captain Toad can jump. He just can't specifically in Treasure Tracker as a gameplay mechanic.

You know, talking about unlikely Mario characters like Geno and Daisy would be better than running into another jumping controversy again.

Honestly, my preferred idea for a new Mario character is actually Fawful. He's the most recurring Mario spinoff villain, is extremely popular and has a ton of unique mechanics going for him. Oh, and Nintendo ACTUALLY owns him, unlike Geno. Plus he plotted to become the main antagonist for three games.


Of course, we'll probably get Daisy long before Fawful. But honestly I feel that if there's one spinoff character who deserves to appear in more games, its Fawful.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Honestly, my preferred idea for a new Mario character is actually Fawful. He's the most recurring Mario spinoff villain, is extremely popular and has a ton of unique mechanics going for him. Oh, and Nintendo ACTUALLY owns him, unlike Geno. Plus he plotted to become the main antagonist for three games.


Of course, we'll probably get Daisy long before Fawful. But honestly I feel that if there's one spinoff character who deserves to appear in more games, its Fawful.

We did get the likes of Rosalina before Toad and Daisy, so anything is possible since Sakurai loves messing around with our minds.

That being said, Fawful would be a genius idea since he does have some inventions up his disposal and he represents a Mario spinoff that had less content than Paper Mario. Imagine him saying "I have the chortles!" or his famous food metaphors in spoken dialogue for the first time in history. Similarly to Wii Fit Trainer, he could have various lines to spout depending on his attacks or taunts.

Oh, and Dark Fawful would be the best Final Smash in history if pulled off right.

 

[Deleted member]

The only Retro I really want (if she counts as a Retro; since she hasn't appeared in anything except one small cameo in recent years I think she counts) is Lip, honestly. She could be a fairly unique character, represent Nintendo's puzzle game genre and a fairly long-running franchise (Lip herself hasn't appeared recently but her franchise has appeared as recently as 2008), and Panel de Pon is just freaking awesome.

already reps the puzzle game genre, somehow.

EDIT : 777th message.

 

[JaidynReiman]

already reps the puzzle game genre, somehow.

EDIT : 777th message.

Not really since the only thing he even does from the Dr. Mario games is throw pills.

We did get the likes of Rosalina before Toad and Daisy, so anything is possible since Sakurai loves messing around with our minds.

That being said, Fawful would be a genius idea since he does have some inventions up his disposal and he represents a Mario spinoff that had less content than Paper Mario. Imagine him saying "I have the chortles!" or his famous food metaphors in spoken dialogue for the first time in history. Similarly to Wii Fit Trainer, he could have various lines to spout depending on his attacks or taunts.

Oh, and Dark Fawful would be the best Final Smash in history if pulled off right.

That is true, but the difference is Rosalina is a rising star while Daisy is a one-off who was brought back in spinoff games. Rosalina has now been in 3 main Mario games (granted, her roles were reduced, but she still appeared, and was even playable in one of them). Toad I'll give since he's been playable in quite a few Mario games.


But I don't really see it happening since they pretty much never represent spinoffs. Hence why Daisy and Waluigi have never been playable.

 

[FalKoopa]

Fawful is one of my "so amazing yet so unlikely" character. He's just flat out hilarious. He has quite a variety of robotic weapons, like his versatile head helmet, which can work as a tether, a rocket recovery and shoot energy balls. He also has a laser gun which shoots rings, a summonable boar-armadillo hybrid, and would have the coolest victory lines and would certainly be a fountain of memes. What's not to like?

 

[Deleted member]

I know this Captain Toad debate is over but I always thought that the Captain could just bounce of springy mushrooms as his jumps similar to how Toad bounces of the mushrooms in his special moves in Mario Sports Mix.

Example:

I know I said I was done with the subject, but thank you for reminding me of this.
This was kind of the idea I had with the Jump Blocks before I realized Jump Blocks don't work that way. Glad to see the concept is still viable through springy mushrooms.

 

[AEMehr]

When it comes to the classic characters, my favorites are Excitebike Racer and Muddy Mole for the potential they can add to the game play.
I also really enjoy the franchises they come from too so a little biased, but I think a character who can turn themselves into a walking hitbox and a character that can have a focus on stage control through moving an object around the stage and burrowing through the ground sounds promising to me.

Fawful is probably like my most wanted Mario character up with Waluigi, so much interesting potential for a lightweight villain like him with his Headgear.

 

[Staarih]

Takamaru would be my retro pick. Let him get the Little Mac treatment next game haha! A revival of Mysterious Murasame Castle would help immensely, but I don't know if Takamaru would be counted as retro at that point anymore. Hmm.

Out of all past and present AT's I still need Isaac to be promoted to playable status before anyone else tho.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Takamaru would be my retro pick. Let him get the Little Mac treatment next game haha! A revival of Mysterious Murasame Castle would help immensely, but I don't know if Takamaru would be counted as retro at that point anymore. Hmm.

Out of all past and present AT's I still need Isaac to be promoted to playable status before anyone else tho.

I've been watching a certain Platinum Games director for quite some time in hopes of knowing what his next project would be in the near future. Remembered him saying that he would be interested in the revival, but that was around the time he was wanting to do Star Fox (In which he quits because of whining fans annoying him all the time).

I would die happy the day he finally announced that title, even if I were to become a middle aged man. Right, as if I'll stick around for Round 5 of speculation the next time.

 

[BluePikmin11]

At this point, I think retros (not historical retros) need to have a new game in order to be elligible. Then again, if there's less plausible contenders in Smash 5, Sakurai might have to resort to a retro revival newcomer like Pit in Brawl.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Unless the term "historical retro" came from Sakurai himself, then no such thing exists.


A character is a character, how is that complicated?

 

[BluePikmin11]

Yeah why don't we discuss if historical retros exist as a topic instead, not currently in the mood to discuss deeply right now and I still stand by my opinion that it exists and will continue to be a tradition in future Smash games until there's none left.

 

[False Sense]

At this point, I think retros (not historical retros) need to have a new game in order to be elligible. Then again, if there's less plausible contenders in Smash 5, Sakurai might have to resort to a retro revival newcomer like Pit in Brawl.

If retro characters can't get in unless they have a new game, are they even retro characters at that point?

 

[Deleted member]

Historical: of or concerning history; concerning past events/belonging to the past, not the present.
Retro: imitative of a style, fashion, or design from the recent past.


By definition, I don't think "historical retro" can technically exist.

 

[AEMehr]

At this point, I think retros (not historical retros) need to have a new game in order to be elligible. Then again, if there's less plausible contenders in Smash 5, Sakurai might have to resort to a retro revival newcomer like Pit in Brawl.

Is that not counter productive to the retro appeal of a character? Besides, I don't exactly understand why you're calling Pit a retro revival character during Brawl's development.

What matters is gameplay and if the character can appeal to audiences, there's a fair selection of classic Nintendo characters that can offer new ways to play and appeal to the player base.