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pupNapoleon

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There are a lot of people posting that 'it doesn't matter if he jumps.' I don't think you've done any research on the game at all, if you feel that way. It is the entire basis for the conception of Captain Toad's game. Literally dozens of articles such as this one
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/12/captain-toads-treasure-tracker-wont-make-you-jump-jump/
go into detail about it.

Sakurai can say '**** it,' sure- but he has also demonstrated that there are core parts of a character that cannot change. Captain Toad not jumping falls into this category.

Here is more on the subject: the entire conception of Captain Toad's game, the only reason the character even saw any light of day, was based on NOT BEING ABLE TO JUMP. It is, by no means, a throwaway gag, @ Wintropy Wintropy . It is the entire soul of the development. The backpack is merely the scapegoat for story explaination as to why he cannot jump- the point is that he was very choice in not being able to do this.
http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2014/11/captain_toad_treasure_tracker_evolved_from_a_zelda_concept
 
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Wintropy

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There are a lot of people posting that 'it doesn't matter if he jumps.' I don't think you've done any research on the game at all, if you feel that way. It is the entire basis for the conception of Captain Toad's game. Literally dozens of articles such as this one
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/12/captain-toads-treasure-tracker-wont-make-you-jump-jump/
go into detail about it.

Sakurai can say '**** it,' sure- but he has also demonstrated that there are core parts of a character that cannot change. Captain Toad not jumping falls into this category.
And Mario can only take one hit if he doesn't have a...no, wait, that's not right.

Okay, so you can only choose four moves for Pikachu to use, and then...oh, darn it.

Right, but y'know how Mega Man dies instantly if he touches spikes? Well, how about...oh, okay.

But this one's for sure. So Villager can't fight, because he never fights in his game, and...oh, come on!

And so forth.
 

JaidynReiman

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There are a lot of people posting that 'it doesn't matter if he jumps.' I don't think you've done any research on the game at all, if you feel that way. It is the entire basis for the conception of Captain Toad's game. Literally dozens of articles such as this one
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/12/captain-toads-treasure-tracker-wont-make-you-jump-jump/
go into detail about it.

Sakurai can say '**** it,' sure- but he has also demonstrated that there are core parts of a character that cannot change. Captain Toad not jumping falls into this category.

Here is more on the subject: the entire convention Captain Toad was based around was NOT BEING ABLE TO JUMP.
http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2014/11/captain_toad_treasure_tracker_evolved_from_a_zelda_concept
You can literally say that about half the characters playable in Smash Bros. Captain Toad being unable to jump in Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker is completely and totally 100% IRRELEVANT. It absolutely DOES NOT matter whether a hypothetical addition of Captain Toad to Smash Bros. can jump or not due to everything all kinds of other playable Smash characters can or cannot do in their original games, but can do so in Smash Bros. regardless of the fact that they can't do them outside of it.
 

pupNapoleon

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You can literally say that about half the characters playable in Smash Bros. Captain Toad being unable to jump in Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker is completely and totally 100% IRRELEVANT. It absolutely DOES NOT matter whether a hypothetical addition of Captain Toad to Smash Bros. can jump or not due to everything all kinds of other playable Smash characters can or cannot do in their original games, but can do so in Smash Bros. regardless of the fact that they can't do them outside of it.
No, you cannot say that about anyone. Read the creators words, man. Captain Toad as a game would not exist if the character could jump. It is the core foundation of what the character is about. It has nothing to do with 'minor adjustment to Smash,' and more to do with 'Completely altering the very essence of the character.' To say otherwise shows lack of comprehension, and unless an actual argument is made on the matter relating to Captain Toad's intrinsic necessity not to jump, I'm not going to bother with responses that deny this fact.
http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/12/02/how-captain-toad-became-the-star-of-his-own-game "Nintendo General Manager Shigeru Miyamoto rejected the pitch, but he thought the concept [not being able to jump] had potential. It just needed a different main character [thus, they chose Captain Toad]."
http://www.polygon.com/2014/11/17/7232863/captain-toad-treasure-tracker-super-mario-nintendo "Super Mario minus the jumping"

Seriously, there is not any evidence that Captain Toad NOT jumping was a minor detail. In fact, it has been stated, that if he could Jump, if the game had not been founded on the antithesis, then they would never have made the game.
 
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Godzillathewonderdog

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Captain Toad's first appearance was in Super Mario Galaxy where we can see him jump up and down. Hey guys, F-Zero wouldn't exist if the characters didn't drive in racecars, so we should have Captain Falcon driving in one when he fights.
 
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pupNapoleon

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Captain Toad's first appearance was in Super Mario Galaxy where we can see him jump up and down.
RETCON:
Retroactive Continuity.

Reframing past events to serve a current plot need. The ideal retcon clarifies a question alluded to without adding excessive new questions. In its most basic form, this is any plot point that was not intended from the beginning. The most preferred use is where it contradicts nothing, even though it was changed later on.
 

Godzillathewonderdog

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Or he didn't have as much stuff in his bag in Galaxy as he did in Captain Toad, (and wouldn't have in Smash) allowing him to jump, but no, that would be too easy.
 

pupNapoleon

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Or he didn't have as much stuff in his bag in Galaxy as he did in Captain Toad, (and wouldn't have in Smash) allowing him to jump, but no, that would be too easy.
And if Mario were given a Powersuit he could be Samus.

The bag was used as an excuse for the gameplay, not the other way around.
 
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JamesDNaux

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If Ganondorf can be a clone of Captain Falcon, Captain Toad can fly around like Jigglypuff for all I care.


Why is this even an argument? No character 100% fits to their own games, not even Sakurai's own babies.
 

Godzillathewonderdog

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And if Mario were given a Powersuit he could be Samus.
Because a character obtaining a suit from a character from an entirely different game universe and wearing it thus magically becoming the character who normally wears the suit is as logical as a character removing things from their backpack.
 

pupNapoleon

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Do you guys remember the subject of Sakurai not including Mii fighters in Brawl? I know one of the reasons listed had to do with them not having arms and legs (and thus, why they do now, after changing them). Do you think that Rayman would have to have the same thing done, since it's never been done? It may not be crucial to gameplay, but Sakurai actually listed it as a reason not to use the Miis.

It doesn't really matter if you give Rayman arms and legs, right? They make all sorts of changes to gameplay canon. I mean, c'mon, it's Smash!
 

Godzillathewonderdog

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Do you guys remember the subject of Sakurai not including Mii fighters in Brawl? I know one of the reasons listed had to do with them not having arms and legs (and thus, why they do now, after changing them). Do you think that Rayman would have to have the same thing done, since it's never been done? It may not be crucial to gameplay, but Sakurai actually listed it as a reason not to use the Miis.

It doesn't really matter if you give Rayman arms and legs, right? They make all sorts of changes to gameplay canon. I mean, c'mon, it's Smash!
Where did you hear that? Miis have had arms and legs since their creation. Turn on a Wii and go to the Mii Plaza and you'll see that.
 

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Rayman being limbless wouldn't cause any trouble at all. It's not like he's going to fly apart into a bunch of separate items.

Rayman's fists would be no worse than Link's boomerang.
 

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Characters that have their apparent (double) jumping prowess explained through their game/canon logic:

Characters with inhale/multi-jumps or wings (meaning Kirby/Kid Icarus series, and Charizard/Jigglypuff)
Samus due to Space Jump/thrusters and Zero Suit Samus due to jet heels
Yoshi due to Flutter Jump
Ness (and Lucas/Mewtwo) due to PSI
R.O.B. due to thrusters

For everyone else, jumping while mid-air doesn't make a lick of sense. This isn't even accounting for characters that have been shown to clearly be able to levitate/float through other means (mostly Bowser Jr. being in a flying clown car, and Rosalina/Robin/Ganondorf because magic).

That all said, I wouldn't be against them going the extra mile/explaining why "suddenly x can do y." It just seems superfluous at a point in the game/series where "Mac can't jump well because boxing takes place on the ground" is about as justifiable and unquestionable logic as it gets.

I can accept "Villager/Mii being too peaceful" before I can accept Toad is literally defined by not being Mario/having the ability to jump.
 

pupNapoleon

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Rayman being limbless wouldn't cause any trouble at all. It's not like he's going to fly apart into a bunch of separate items.

Rayman's fists would be no worse than Link's boomerang.
Toad not being able to jump does not inherently cause trouble in the game, it merely provides a challenge.
Additionally, we don't actually know that hitbox and frames to calculate 8 Rayman's, each with six different parts, would not be a technical issue for Rayman.

I actually think that is the best comparison available; Rayman was conceived, as were his games, by being a character without arms or legs. Akin to CT's inability to jump.
 

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Toad not being able to jump does not inherently cause trouble in the game, it merely provides a challenge.
Additionally, we don't actually know that hitbox and frames to calculate 8 Rayman's, each with six different parts, would not be a technical issue for Rayman.

I actually think that is the best comparison available; Rayman was conceived, as were his games, by being a character without arms or legs. Akin to CT's inability to jump.
Forget oranges, this is apples to corn. What at all does not jumping have to do with technical limitations?

He would have no more separate models than any other characters. You know they could give him "limbs" and just make them invisible and remove the hitbox, right? Him throwing his fist would be no more complicated than Diddy's Lanky arms.
 
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This is such an arbitrary and pointless debate. I'm sorry, but we are literally arguing over whether a character should be able to jump or not.

Captain Toad doesn't jump for purely technical reasons in his native game. Even the manual explains that it's because of the weight of his backpack (a similar reason is offered in Smash to explain Doc's weight difference to Mario, to wit: his heavy lab coat weighs him down).
a. Dr. Mario is the same exact weight as Mario (outside of PAL Melee). Not only that, but his labcoat isn't even used as an excuse for why he can't jump as high.
In Melee, his "lack of exercise" is used. In Smash 4, his MD is the reason why he's slower and doesn't jump as high. His medical degree. Now, unless you're believing that a piece of paper is literally slowing him down and limiting his jumping ability, it's referring to the fact that his focus on working in the medical field leaves his athletic ability to be a bit rusty. So just like Melee, a lack of exercise.

b. Captain Toad is given specific reasoning for his inability to jump. That I'm not denying.
What I'm saying is that taking that specific reasoning and shrugging it off doesn't make a lick of sense. If Captain Toad is incapable of jumping with the backpack, then in order to feasibly make him jump without outside help, he's going to need to ditch the backpack.


There are countless examples in Smash of characters who can't do things, very simple things, for gameplay reasons. I am baffled as to why this is necessarily the exception.
Outside of cases that break canon a bit such as Mario not needing a Fire Flower to shoot fireballs (though Mario's broken this limit several times in the non-platforming games with his general pyrokinetic prowess) or Sonic being able to briefly swim slowly instead of sinking like a rock, most cases are cases of don't as opposed to can't.
They don't do these things because they weren't given the button command to do so or the game's design simply doesn't allow the option (i.e. an RPG doesn't typically let you run and jump around while fighting like a Beat 'Em Up would). It isn't literally impossible for them to actually do so if given the option like it is for Captain Toad.



Marth, Ike, Robin and Lucina can only attack once or twice of their own accord, and then can't attack unless they're attacked fist.
There's literally nothing preventing them from doing so other than the fact the gameplay is turn-based.
In Captain Toad's case, he's directly limited because of the backpack.

Pikachu can't do anything unless he's specifically commanded to by his / her Trainer.
First of all, if a Pikachu can't attack unless commanded to, then a wild Pikachu would just sit there like a dunce as you're beating the snot of it.
Second, (considering you're going to use the "Pikachu comes out of a Poké Ball, so it's owned by a Trainer" counterpoint), as the player, you're giving Pikachu commands just like a Trainer anyway.
Third, the gameplay focusing on the player Trainer leading their team does not mean every single goddamn Pokémon is incompetent without a Trainer. If you look at plenty of other games where the gameplay focuses directly on the Pokémon themselves rather than the Trainers, you'd see they're more than capable of handling themselves (or at least most of them are).


Sonic can't swim.
The only legitimate counter so far. Though technically, he isn't so much swimming as he is treading water, which Sonic has been shown capable of doing temporarily in some games.



Palutena can only use her Powers a limited number of times.
Correction; Pit can only use the Powers a limited number of times because that's the limit Palutena set for the individual versions she's created for him to use.
Palutena, being a goddess and a troll, can pretty much screw the rules she has green hair and make some with infinite uses solely for herself.


Mario can only throw fireballs with the aid of a Fire Flower.
As stated before, several games have Mario using pyrokinesis without the aid of a Fire Flower.

Yoshi has to swallow enemies before throwing eggs.
Much like Mario, Yoshi has broken this limitation through non-platforming titles.
Until we see Captain Toad jumping normally with his backpack in one of these games, these points are invalid.

And so forth.
I'm going to need to see this "so forth", because the only point that works is Sonic's inability to swim, and even that has a bit of a "loophole" of sorts, kind of like what I'm trying to suggest for Captain Toad.

So why is it a big deal that Captain Toad shouldn't be able to jump?
Because he literally can't with the backpack.
It shouldn't be so damn difficult to get, but it apparently is.


It's a throwaway gag intended as a coy vindication of a very simple gameplay mechanic. Are we reduced to literally justifying why a character can't perform one of the most fundamentally basic options in Smash?
It isn't a "throwaway gag".
A "throwaway gag" would be like explaining why Wario's teeth are always so clean being because all the garlic he eats scares off germs that cause tooth decay and he himself eats any plaque brave enough to stay (an actual non-made up statement from the Wario World manual). It holds no relevance outside of answering a random question with a silly answer.
Explaining why Captain Toad is incapable of jumping when that's the focus of his game being because of his heavy backpack is legitimately answering a serious question (one that doesn't even need a written explanation given you can try to jump and see for yourself).

So, for iteration, since Captain Toad's problem comes from his backpack, there's only two logical solutions:
-Work around the problem through alternative means (i.e. Jump Blocks).
-Remove the source of the problem.
 
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D

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There's been plenty worse.
You just haven't been around long enough to know.
 

JamesDNaux

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I'm more interested in Little Mac's miraculous ability to grab things with boxing gloves.

He should have had the gimmick of not having a grab button and an inability to pick up items.
 
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I'm more interested in Little Mac's miraculous ability to grab things with boxing gloves.

He should have had the gimmick of not having a grab button and an inability to pick up items.
Question: Have you ever played Punch-Out?

If "Yes": Are you aware that many of Mac's opponents are capable of grabbing and holding things while wearing gloves?

If "No": What are you waiting for? Go play it right nao! :awesome: ...and yeah, many of Mac's opponents are capable of grabbing and holding things with their gloves on, JSYK.
 
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D

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Curses, foiled again by jokes taken seriously.

But no, I've never touched Punch-Out.
If "No": What are you waiting for? Go play it right nao! :awesome: ...and yeah, many of Mac's opponents are capable of grabbing and holding things with their gloves on, JSYK.
One of the most noteworthy examples is Soda Popinski, due to being shown drinking a bottle of soda even on the NES:
 
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JamesDNaux

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Punch-Out is somewhere near the bottom of my list of Smash induced games to try.


Right behind F-Zero and ahead of Wii Fit. Just doesn't seem like my kind of game.
 

[Obnoxshush/Dasshizer]

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If Henry is DLC, this has to be his final smash, note this video contains spoilers for all the characters and their special attacks in Codename Steam,
 

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If Captain Toad was in a Smash Brothers game, he would need to be able to jump. Smash is platforming fighting game, the characters will need to be able to do basic functions of a platforming game, which includes jumping. A good portion of the game takes place off stage, without the ability to jump you make Captain Toad complete garbage for the sake of forcing canon (and how exactly would someone be able to play Smash Run or Classic mode with him, you need to jump in Smash Run. Classic Mode on the Wii U version has Master Fortress). Something a good balancing team would be pretty against having happen for the sake of making Captain Toad usable.

Now granted, it would be a pretty trashy jump, I mean Toads have historically had pretty bad jump height. But to argue that exceptions won't be made to make him playable is crazy, especially the concept of incorporating his only way to jump through his up special. It may sound interesting in theory, but it would more than likely be pretty horrid in practice. I mean if you think Little Mac has it bad just imagine someone who is pretty much gone as soon as he hits 20/30%, thrown off stage, gets hit by an aerial, and they're done. Unless he gets something even crazier and better than Villager's absurd Up Special, I don't see a jump-less Captain Toad being a viable situation.
Punch-Out is somewhere near the bottom of my list of Smash induced games to try.


Right behind F-Zero and ahead of Wii Fit. Just doesn't seem like my kind of game.
Don't knock it till you try it IMO. It's a pretty neat puzzle game, Wii version is pretty fantastic.
 

Scoliosis Jones

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Bottom line is that gameplay concerned, Captain Toad would be trash if he can't jump. So the logical answer is to make him have a ****ty jump.

Don't change the ways of the game for it. Just make it not that great.

Or, let's make him unique while we're at it and give him a weight class shifting moveset that involves putting stuff in his backpack and/or taking it out to attack. He can hardly jump with a full pack (Captain Toad) but has slightly less that average jumping ability in general. His up b could be good to help the situation.
 
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Bottom line is that gameplay concerned, Captain Toad would be trash if he can't jump. So the logical answer is to make him have a ****ty jump.

Don't change the ways of the game for it. Just make it not that great.
This.

It's bad game design to remove an essential game mechanic from a character. A lot of characters in Smash already take creative liberties in the transition from their source games to Smash. That is a necessity due to gameplay differences.

People are forgetting an important thing with all this "Toad can't jump" bull****: GAMEPLAY. GAME DESIGN.

Seriously, are people this dense?

Sure, there are a lot of characters that have gameplay mechanics from their games incorporated, but that's because they work in Smash. Robin having limited uses for weapons or Olimar using Pikmin work in Smash. A character not having a gameplay option that is universal to the game doesn't work and is a horrible game design choice. It destroys a basic premise and would be an awfully balanced character with a glaring weakness.

Seriously, how reliable would a no-jump Toad be in modes like Smash Run or when playing on moving stages? Have people given thought to such possibilities?

Smash is a hybrid fighting-platforming game. Both genres have jumping as part of the gameplay. By doing a character that cannot jump, you're making that character that doesn't adhere to the core mechanics. By definition, that is poor design.

I don't give a **** if people claim it's imagination or art, this is a GAME first and foremost. Gameplay comes before anything else.

Oh, and I know people will be going to my ignore list should this crap continue. There's only so much stupid and ignorance that I can handle for my own mental health.
 
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Wintropy

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@GoldenYuiitusin, just gonna say that you're wrong about the Doc thing, at least in the PAL version of Smash 4.

His trophy description specifically states that it's the lab coat that weighs him down. I should know, I've chuckled at it enough times.

Please check your facts before telling me I'm wrong, m'kay? :3

So basically, it boils down to this:

MAKE CAPTAIN TOAD'S BACKPACK LIGHTER.

It's that simple. We don't need to arbitrarily redefine the basic mechanics of Smash for the sake of one character; we don't need to make its, and or buts because of one game, even if that game features that element as its central premise. Presumably he's got a lot of stuff to carry in Treasure Tracker, just say that Cee-Tee's done some exercise before Smash and is strong enough to carry its weight in the air now, or that he only brought the essential Smash supplies. Just say that gravity works differently in Smash. Just say anything or offer some reason to justify it, because this argument is just petty and pedantic.

I struggle to justify why this is an issue. It legitimately sounds like people are making excuses to complicate matters for no honest reason or than that "muh yoo-neek-ness". Captain Toad can be unique in plenty of others ways without breaking the entire game. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
 
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AEMehr

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Here's another thing:
If it's determined by the dev team that him jumping would actually be breaking character and unfaithful to who he is, then Captain Toad can never be playable. No jump = Not viable, he'd be too heavy. :troll:
 

Jason the Yoshi

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This Captain Toad thing is still going on?

We need to find some kind of middle ground here. We won't really know if this "Captain Toad can't be in because he can jump" thing is legit unless whoever does the next Smash says so like Sakurai said Ridley was indeed too big.
 

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This Captain Toad thing is still going on?

We need to find some kind of middle ground here. We won't really know if this "Captain Toad can't be in because he can jump" thing is legit unless whoever does the next Smash says so like Sakurai said Ridley was indeed too big.
If you actually understood game design, you would understand that Sakurai didn't just brush off Ridley as being "too big".

Then again, I'm convinced that a large percentage of this fanbase doesn't understand a lick about game design and development, so I'm not too surprised by the ignorant comments and misinterpretation of Sakurai's interviews.
 
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Sakurai saying captain toad's inability to jump being a problem wouldn't stop support or the arguments anyway. See Ridley debates still going strong for people who aren't just plain tired of them like myself.
 
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One of the most noteworthy examples is Soda Popinski, due to being shown drinking a bottle of soda even on the NES:
Oh yes, that totally doesn't look like bottle of something else. I wonder it would got a T-Rating if he was named 'Vodka Drunkenski' :laugh:

:231:
 

Godzillathewonderdog

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I love Sakurai's reasonings for why Doc is different from normal Mario, like how he's stronger because his knowledge on human anatomy allows him to pinpoint the areas in a person's body that would cause more pain if hit there.
 

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To this very day, I don't see what's the point in discussing the issue of jumping for Captain Toad. Just the idea of a character that can't jump in Smash seems like a terrible decision since the Smash franchise always had elements of platforming and recovery with a mixture of that and an Up Special (depending on the character) is highly important.

We technically had never seen a single Fire Emblem character jump during usual FE gameplay with the exception of Ike, yet here they are having such a function in the Super Smash Bros. franchise. So it wouldn't hurt to just give the explorational Toad some way of jumping with either randomly spawning Jump Blocks or just ditch the backpack altogether. A character that has no means of jumping would be more of a burden than a completely viable fighter IMO. Next thing you know, people would start thinking it's a good idea for a character to have no dodging or shielding mechanics.
 

N3ON

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The lack of jumping is crucial to the Captain Toad game. The presence of jumping is crucial to Smash.

The basic elements of Smash supersede basic elements of other games in Smash.

Disagree all you want but then you should also be complaining about how Sonic doesn't immediately sink when in water, how the Pokemon don't run out of their moves after using them a certain amount of times, how Samus has an infinite amount of missiles, how normal Mario can throw fireballs, how opponents don't get swallowed by Kirby after being inhaled, how Zelda's attacks work completely different than in the Zelda games, etc etc etc.

We done now?
 
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