Character Discussion Thread

[SmashChu]

First off, no, jumps are used for much more than just recovery. Jumps are also required for dodging projectiles, following up attacks and load of advanced techniques.

Let us a take a situation: Capt. Toad used an Up Smash, and the character gets knocked far enough upwards. What is he going to do then? Sit like an idiot waiting for the opponent to come back?

Or take another case: Falco starts lasering him. Without a jump, he can only shield for so long before he gets trapped by the stun and HE CANNOT ESCAPE IT BECAUSE HE CANNOT JUMP.

Or ROB places a gyro on the ground: He cannot get past it without hurting himself. See where this is going?

I repeat, not having jumps is a terrible idea for a Platform Fighter like smash. Unless you give a good work-around, I'm not moving from my position.


True. Robo burner is laggy and is unwieldy for general purpose, but it kind of works, I guess.

He could just have bad jumps. You can even make his second jump puny as you see him struggle to jump. Not sure why it's an issue.

 

[FalKoopa]

He could just have bad jumps. You can even make his second jump puny as you see him struggle to jump. Not sure why it's an issue.

That was the point I was trying to make. DukeNapoleon was suggesting taking away his ability to jump, as a gimmick. >_>

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

He could just have bad jumps. You can even make his second jump puny as you see him struggle to jump. Not sure why it's an issue.

Because, people like to make everything an issue.

 

[Chandeelure]

Wat?! XD

So ... he can jump.
That changes everything ... ugh, just make his jumps crap like Little Mac.

All this debate for nothing.

 

[N3ON]

I think that Toad is Toad.
I also think that Toad by himself isn't that enticing of a Smash fighter.
And, evidently I am not the only one, as he has never been in Smash Bros.

That's not the sturdiest of logic. In that vein one could say Ridley isn't that enticing of a Smash fighter because he's never been in Smash. Or K. Rool. Or Krystal. Or Dixie. Or Geno, etc. etc. etc.

Toad isn't the most popular candidate... but he's not unpopular. He was demanded just as much as any Mario character before the roster started being revealed.

 

[pupNapoleon]

You all are welcome to your opinions.
It must be nice to be so amazed when we do get characters like DHD or WFT or ... quite frankly, anyone.
The lack of creativity amongst Smash fans has yet to stop amazing me, but I suppose since we cannot actually contribute to the game, and only play what we are given, it is a more grateful stance, to just be in awe of everything done because it all seems impossible before shown.

 

[A Distant Demon]

You all are welcome to your opinions.
It must be nice to be so amazed when we do get characters like DHD or WFT or ... quite frankly, anyone.
The lack of creativity amongst Smash fans has yet to stop amazing me, but I suppose since we cannot actually contribute to the game, and only play what we are given, it is a more grateful stance, to just be in awe of everything done because it all seems impossible before shown.

Duck hunt and WFT aren't missing an entire part of gameplay. There is a difference between being unique and unnecessarily convoluted

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Toad is a specific character too.

I mean he's about as specific of a character as a regular Waddle Dee.

 

[N3ON]

Hey u guys lets make a character that can jump and attack but can't move.

No?

You guys are uncreative.

 

[Baskerville]

Purposefully getting rid of jumping =/= Creativity.
Like really, do you WANT Captain Toad to be the most gimpable character in the entire series?

 

[Kenith]

That's not the sturdiest of logic. In that vein one could say Ridley isn't that enticing of a Smash fighter because he's never been in Smash. Or K. Rool. Or Krystal. Or Dixie. Or Geno, etc. etc. etc.
Toad isn't the most popular candidate... but he's not unpopular. He was demanded just as much as any Mario character before the roster started being revealed.

That's...not what I meant at all.
I'm saying that I think Toad would have been in Smash by now if Sakurai thought he would warrant an interesting move set.

 

[Kalimdori]

Hey u guys lets make a character that can jump and attack but can't move.

No?

You guys are uncreative.

Yes! Awesome! I've always wanted a Thwomp as a playable character!

 

[FalKoopa]

You all are welcome to your opinions.
It must be nice to be so amazed when we do get characters like DHD or WFT or ... quite frankly, anyone.
The lack of creativity amongst Smash fans has yet to stop amazing me, but I suppose since we cannot actually contribute to the game, and only play what we are given, it is a more grateful stance, to just be in awe of everything done because it all seems impossible before shown.

Because removing an option is a such a unique idea.

Uniqueness should be an ability to do something differently, not a disability. It's violates the most basic principle of game design, "The character should be fun to play."

 

[pupNapoleon]

Captain Toad would not be the first character in Smash Bros. that does not jump in their own games. If they need him to have jumps to a functional character in Smash, they're not going to come up with a complicated workaround, they're just going to give him weak jumps.
Which, iirc, is not a trait exclusive to just Captain Toad.

My moveset for him involved actually changing the weight of his backpack by digging up treasure then tossing at his enemies. Killing two birds with one stone essentially and making him somewhat unique.

He would be the first character in the game who does not jump in his, who was specifically decided to not jump as an extreme part of game design, and has yet to be given (to be fair, it it is new), an item upgrade to do so.

It is not nearly as defining of a trait for other characters who do not jump; for Toad it was the starting point of the world creation and the first thing the creators mention regarding why the game is different.

and arguably .

Sorry, felt like nitpicking.

There is nothing in those games, as far as I know, that would lead us to believe they cannot jump- versus Captain Toad, who is constantly stated to 'not be able to jump.' If someone can find an instance of a character in Smash, wherein the CREATORS of he game have repeatedly gone on in advertisements and interviews to state that "The character cannot jump," or, "As we decided the character could not jump..."

 

[N3ON]

Some gimmicks end up being more fun, or at least well-received than others, but none are going to outright cut a huge element of gameplay, even if that means tweaking a character's canon abilities, or lack thereof. Smash itself it the epitome of non-canon.

I mean he's about as specific of a character as a regular Waddle Dee.

Or a regular Yoshi.

He might look like any regular Toad but he's still recognizable as the specific Toad.

That's...not what I meant at all.
I'm saying that I think Toad would have been in Smash by now if Sakurai thought he would warrant an interesting move set.

Oh. You should've specified you were talking about Sakurai, because there are a lot of people who find that Toad would be an enticing fighter.

 

[FalKoopa]

There is nothing in those games, as far as I know, that would lead us to believe they cannot jump- versus Captain Toad, who is constantly stated to 'not be able to jump.' If someone can find an instance of a character in Smash, wherein the CREATORS of he game have repeatedly gone on in advertisements and interviews to state that "The character cannot jump," or, "As we decided the character could not jump..."

Except that, y'know, he said 'does not'. He did not say 'can not'.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Because removing an option is a such a unique idea.

Uniqueness should be an ability to do something differently, not a disability. It's violates the most basic principle of game design, "The character should be fun to play."

Firstly, this argument is based on nothing; you are claiming a conceived character isn't fun to play as? Not only is that your completely ignorant opinion (ignorant because it hasn't happened), but who is to say that is what others would think? I'm almost certain the general masses would have said Wii Fit Trainer would not be fun to play as before she was announced.

Purposefully getting rid of jumping =/= Creativity.
Like really, do you WANT Captain Toad to be the most gimpable character in the entire series?

Duck hunt and WFT aren't missing an entire part of gameplay. There is a difference between being unique and unnecessarily convoluted

In any artistry, there are limitations. They exist inherently in life- not enough resources (often money or time, or energy), not enough space (to create the image you conceived on canvas), there is a pillar (haha) in the sightline of the theater.

Sure, it is possible to completely ignore these issues, and pay no conscientiousness to them. A truly gifted artist, however, will use these weaknesses, pay them attention, and turn them into a strength. By paying attention to what difficulties exist, rather than just ignoring them, they can be highlighted and then made to showcase what is unique.
The barriers which once existed them become walls to bounce off of.

 

[Kenith]

Why can't Captain Toad jump? Because his backpack has weight.
Seriously, you could give him the ability to jump in Smash Bros., and write it off as saying his backpack is less heavy than in his own game.
Easy fix.

 

[RobinOnDrugs]

Or maybe make him a fast falling character because his backpack is very heavy.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Some gimmicks end up being more fun, or at least well-received than others, but none are going to outright cut a huge element of gameplay, even if that means tweaking a character's canon abilities, or lack thereof. Smash itself it the epitome of non-canon.


Or a regular Yoshi.

He might look like any regular Toad but he's still recognizable as the specific Toad.

Which games did this specific Toad you're talking about appear in exactly?

 

[N3ON]

Why can't Captain Toad jump? Because his backpack has weight.
Seriously, you could give him the ability to jump in Smash Bros., and write it off as saying his backpack is less heavy than in his own game.
Easy fix.

Or just say **** it its Smash. That's what happened to Sonic's new found ability to splash around in water as opposed to instantly sinking.

Which games did this specific Toad you're talking about appear in exactly?

http://www.mariowiki.com/toad

 

[FalKoopa]

Firstly, this argument is based on nothing; you are claiming a conceived character isn't fun to play as? Not only is that your completely ignorant opinion (ignorant because it hasn't happened), but who is to say that is what others would think? I'm almost certain the general masses would have said Wii Fit Trainer would not be fun to play as before she was announced.

Were you really around here when WFT was announced? While she was derided for being so out-of-the-left-field, everyone acknowledged the uniqueness of the idea.

Yes, I know that what is fun is subjective. But a little common sense dictates that deliberately crippling a character is not going to be fun, at least for the majority of players. And to get sales, a game has to cater to the majority demographic.

 

[Kenith]

Or just say **** it its Smash. That's what happened to Sonic's new found ability to splash around in water as opposed to instantly sinking.

http://www.mariowiki.com/toad

Believe me, that is not an alien concept to me.
I'm just trying to find a way to express an idea more than two people agree on.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I must say, It's a bit strange to be in the extremely small minority of two arguments, debating for two characters, one named Jumpman and the other being derived from NOT jumping.

 

[Baskerville]

In any artistry, there are limitations. They exist inherently in life- not enough resources (often money or time, or energy), not enough space (to create the image you conceived on canvas), there is a pillar (haha) in the sightline of the theater.

Sure, it is possible to completely ignore these issues, and pay no conscientiousness to them. A truly gifted artist, however, will use these weaknesses, pay them attention, and turn them into a strength. By paying attention to what difficulties exist, rather than just ignoring them, they can be highlighted and then made to showcase what is unique.
The barriers which once existed them become walls to bounce off of.

Except in the context of a fighting game, a limitation such as not being able to jump is only going to hurt them more in the long run. It's not art, it's bad design choice.

 

[N3ON]

Believe me, that is not an alien concept to me.
I'm just trying to find a way to express an idea more than two people agree on.

It's like when people suggest Ridley's intro should be him using a Poison Mushroom.

I get it, but with Smash... you don't even really an explanation for something like this. I guess the explanation here would be... it's Smash; characters jump. xD

 

[pupNapoleon]

Of course, Sakurai could decide '**** it, he can jump.' I just don't think he would, as, the way I see it, not being able to jump is an integral part of Captain Toad's makeup. A Captain Toad who jumps is inherently just Toad with a Captain outfit on, and compromises the intention of the created character.

Not being able to jump does not mean he is not a fun fighter- he'd still be able to move vertically in some way, of course. The fact that Captain Toad cannot jump may in fact be the key feature that gets him into Smash at all, the source of inspiration for Sakurai, the reason he is intrigued by a clearly popular option; especially for Mario characters, it seems Sakurai for to extend his reach any further, he must find the character truly innovative; this is why we got Rosalina, it is why we got Koopalings.
Creative vertical moving could even be the balance Toad needs, for being a tiny heavyweight with a lot of Power .

Believe me, that is not an alien concept to me.
I'm just trying to find a way to express an idea more than two people agree on.

It doesn't matter how many people agree with anyone in these boards.
It does not influence the game nor are we the only Smash audience, or even the only online English Speaking one.
The purpose of the interaction of ideas would be more thorough if every debate was an option to actually hear new ideas. I've just... never seen that happen here, wherein one side usually decides it is correct early on, develops a massive hype with other like-minded people to talk themselves into that opinion being the evident way Sakurai feels, and then 1 in 5 times, being completely shocked the idea was actually implemented, despite 'mass consensus' of whomever was on anytime the conversation was brought up.

 

[N3ON]

It doesn't matter how many people agree with anyone in these boards.
It does not influence the game nor are we the only Smash audience, or even the only online English Speaking one.
The purpose of the interaction of ideas would be more thorough if every debate was an option to actually hear new ideas. I've just... never seen that happen here, wherein one side usually decides it is correct early on, develops a massive hype with other like-minded people to talk themselves into that opinion being the evident way Sakurai feels, and then 1 in 5 times, being completely shocked the idea was actually implemented, despite 'mass consensus' of whomever was on anytime the conversation was brought up.

That's implying you haven't been given valid thoughtful counterpoints to your arguments, which you have. You can blame it on "mass consensus", which, granted, does lean towards the established, but isn't inherently always some thoughtless hive mind incapable of acknowledging when a point crosses from unorthodox to detrimental or discern between a foreign concept and a bad idea.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Or just say **** it its Smash. That's what happened to Sonic's new found ability to splash around in water as opposed to instantly sinking.


http://www.mariowiki.com/toad

The idea of a "specific Toad" was a bunch of BS craped out by the Mario Wiki, Nintendo has never confirmed that these Toads are the same character. I remember they listed that Captain Toad in Galaxy was the specific Toad and that the Captain Toad in 3D World was a different Toad from the Mario Galaxy one just so it would line up with their BS

 

[pupNapoleon]

That's implying you haven't been given valid thoughtful counterpoints to your arguments, which you have. You can blame it on "mass consensus", which, granted, does lean towards the established, but isn't inherently always some thoughtless hive mind incapable of acknowledging when a point crosses from unorthodox to detrimental or discern between a foreign concept and a bad idea.

I truly don't believe I have been given any valid counter thoughts, though pardon me if I have not discerned them from the Caustic superfluous retorts that tend to come to view from the past few pages.

 

[Wintropy]

I don't distinguish between Captain Toad and vanilla Toad.

They're the same thing, as far as I'm concerned, Captain Toad just has a cooler outfit and a more exciting design.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Hmmm a interesting read i did

Turns out theres going to be a spirital succesor to banjo and kazooie.

 

[Wintropy]

Hmmm a interesting read i did

Turns out theres going to be a spirital succesor to banjo and kazooie.

inb4 slowpoke.png

Can of worms time~

Supposing the option was presented to you to add any third-party / non-Nintendo-owned character of your choice.

Would you, and who would it be?

 

[A Distant Demon]

inb4 slowpoke.png

Can of worms time~

Supposing the option was presented to you to add any third-party / non-Nintendo-owned character of your choice.

Would you, and who would it be?

1. Viewtiful Joe
2. Rayman
3. Snake
4. Banjo
5. Black mage. forgot about him.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

Supposing the option was presented to you to add any third-party / non-Nintendo-owned character of your choice.

Would you, and who would it be?

I would turn it down, because I'm pretty sure almost nobody here wants the character I'd put in. (On the other hand, neither do I)

 

[Kalimdori]

inb4 slowpoke.png

Can of worms time~

Supposing the option was presented to you to add any third-party / non-Nintendo-owned character of your choice.

Would you, and who would it be?

Rayman, Bomberman, Banjo and Kazooie, Black Mage, and Shovel Knight.

 

[SegaNintendoUbisoft]

inb4 slowpoke.png

Can of worms time~

Supposing the option was presented to you to add any third-party / non-Nintendo-owned character of your choice.

Would you, and who would it be?

1.) Rayman
2.) Sackboy
3.) Banjo-Kazooie
4.) Dr. Eggman
5.) Conker

 

[Wintropy]

Interesting answers. I'm noticing a few common suggestions, that's pretty neato.

As for yours truly, if I could just add one, it'd be Professor Layton. I would kill to play as the good Prof in a Smash setting~

Presuming it could be any vidya character, even one that has nothing to do with Ninty, then it'd be Sakuya Izayoi.

Touhou Smash Battles totally counts in her favour, yo~ :3

 

[Xzsmmc]

inb4 slowpoke.png

Can of worms time~

Supposing the option was presented to you to add any third-party / non-Nintendo-owned character of your choice.

Would you, and who would it be?

Course I'd add Simon mudda****ing Belmont.

 

[FalKoopa]

inb4 slowpoke.png

Can of worms time~

Supposing the option was presented to you to add any third-party / non-Nintendo-owned character of your choice.

Would you, and who would it be?

I don't think it would be a can of worms as long as it's wishful thinking.

Anyway,

• Dr. Eggman
• Banjo and Kazooie
• Black Mage
• Phoenix Wright
• Prof Layton