Character Discussion Thread

[JamesDNaux]

The time has come.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Let's have a character that can't use one of the most basic mechanics in Smash Bros.! That will surely be a good and balanced design, right?

It's called an imagination, it solves all sorts of problems and turns them into strengths.

I meant what @ Wintropy meant, you see. Just because I said in a overly sarcastic manner, it doesn't invalidate my point.

Your comment on Zelda's moves has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make. Zelda has what are called creative liberties, which are a necessity when taking characters to a differently designed game.

Toad not being able to jump is basically having a character who can't use one of the game's universal mechanics (i.e. any character can jump). That is bad design by itself.

One thing is to have characters and mechanics based on their source material. No problem here as long as they work well within Smash Bros.'s environment. Another is to remove an essential mechanic from a character.

Characters only need to jump to move vertically, and there is nothing that keeps Captain Toad from moving vertically with another mechanism that isnt a first and second jump. A strong upB and he will make up for recovery.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

It's called an imagination, it solves all sorts of problems and turns them into strengths.

Characters only need to jump to move vertically, and there is nothing that keeps Captain Toad from moving vertically with another mechanism that isnt a first and second jump. A strong upB and he will make up for recovery.

And using aerials.

 

[FalKoopa]

It's called an imagination, it solves all sorts of problems and turns them into strengths.

Characters only need to jump to move vertically, and there is nothing that keeps Captain Toad from moving vertically with another mechanism that isnt a first and second jump. A strong upB and he will make up for recovery.

You do realise that not being able to jump will make him unable to use aerial attacks? Grab ->Throw -> Aerial are the butter-&-butter combos across the entire cast (that's what Hoo Hah essentially is.) Take out his jumps if and only if you make him a joke character.

 

[Frostwraith]

It's called an imagination, it solves all sorts of problems and turns them into strengths.

I can see your ignorance in quality game design written all over that post.

Jumping in Smash is an essential mechanic. It's part of the basis of the game.

Every single character has the following bases for granted:
- 4 ground moves
- 1 running attack
- 5 aerial moves
- 3 Smash attacks
- 4 special moves
- Final Smash
- 3 taunts
- shield
- grab
- pummel
- 4 directional throws
- rolls, spot dodge and air dodge
- jump and at least one mid-air jump
- footstool jump
- running grab
- recovery attacks and rolls

Those are what make up the core mechanics and characters are all designed with those in mind, no exceptions. Take one of them and you effectively break the game. It's like taking a pillar out of a building: everything falls apart.

 

[Chandeelure]

Captain Toad uses Jump Blocks in his jump and double jump animations:

And a Super Jump Block as his Up Special:

The End.

 

[pupNapoleon]

And using aerials.

Not a necessity for a character. If he has other options for attacks, then he has other attacks. Aerials are just one type of attack.

You do realise that not being able to jump will make him unable to use aerial attacks? Grab ->Throw -> Aerial are the butter-&-butter combos across the entire cast (that's what Hoo Hah essentially is.) Take out his jumps if and only if you make him a joke character.

To build on that, there are other types of combos. Just means he has to be spot checked for them; honestly I find that a fallaciously docile argument.

I can see your ignorance in quality game design written all over that post.

Jumping in Smash is an essential mechanic. It's part of the basis of the game.

Every single character has the following bases for granted:
- 4 ground moves
- 1 running attack
- 5 aerial moves
- 3 Smash attacks
- 4 special moves
- Final Smash
- 3 taunts
- shield
- grab
- pummel
- 4 directional throws
- rolls, spot dodge and air dodge
- jump and at least one mid-air jump
- footstool jump
- running grab
- recovery attacks and rolls

Those are what make up the core mechanics and characters are all designed with those in mind, no exceptions. Take one of them and you effectively break the game. It's like taking a pillar out of a building: everything falls apart.

In the place of the pillar, put a more stable foundation and supportive side walls. Then the pillar is shown to have been helpful in other situations, but not necessary to every solid structure.

The entire lack of ingenuity is absolutely baffling and saddening to me. Everything you all have brought up would be arguments you could make about other characters. "A dual character could never work, you would have twice the attacks each hit as anyone else; it would break the foundation of the game!" "A character cannot transform, then they will have access to twice as many moves, and it would make every other character with less moves underpowered; it would break the foundation of the game." Or, "A character cannot have five jumps..."

You can call me ignorant all you want, I call you incapable of conception, and proven wrong by precedent. I accept that you will now attempt to find some statements as to why past precedents are different, despite not actually being so.

 

[pupNapoleon]

*completely new essay from last post, needs to be separate*

Okay, so, from what I gather, Jumpman would fight with hammers, oil drums, barrels, fireballs, ladders and scaffolding.

Yep, totally things that no other character could do.

Spoiler

I actually like the idea of Jumpman in Smash.

Just not as a separate character - but if he was a costume, then yeah, I'd sure as hell play as Tex Avery's Snidely Mariolash.

I know that twelve pages later (maybe less.. I don't know how much of Jumpman I missed) but what I keep seeing missing from all of this Jumpman talk is the actual experience of playing as Jumpman.

Each character does its best to make you feel like you are playing a piece of the world they are from- Megaman from his series, Rosalina from Galaxy as a subseries... the point of new characters is showing very specifically to have little to do with the visual (oh man he whacked you with what my visual analysis of the digital pixels perceives as a hammer) and more to do with the actual GAMEPLAY.

The gameplay of Jumpman/avatar player in Donkey Kong, and SUPER Mario, is exceptionally different. Jumpman must avoid EVERYTHING, and is incredibly incapable of being hit. This is not just a tribute to DONKEY KONG, but to the main protagonist of most early platform games, who were exceptionally more vulnerable than they are now.

Super Mario, while he couldn't be hit, had from the get go more of an arsenal available to him; Jumpman, if he was lucky, only had a timed hammer which was much more difficult to use. Mario at the start had powerups that stayed with him as an extra barrier between him and death/gameplay start over. In actuality, the Star is actually what became of the hammer- it allowed a way to be invincible for a short time, and kill anything hit along the way.

Jumpman being Mario is not important, we already have to rectify within our brains Sheik and Zelda, ZSS and Samus- they are the 'same person.' Yet Toon Link and Link, Dark Pit and Pit, Mario and Dr... they 'arent' the same person, yet represent only minor variations of a clearly identical concept.

In recap:
-It doesn't matter if Jumpman and Mario are the same person, not in Smash Bros anyway. At least here we have an actual differentiation by name, rather than just a modifier telling you that the name alone is not another character (Samus, Pit, Link, Mario)
-The gameplay of Jumpman and Mario would be nothing alike. Jumpman would have very poor defense, exceptional jumping and aerial abilities (maybe even being able to 'land' in the air, on ladders he creates), the goal would be, more than anyone else, DO NOT GET HIT
-Jumpman represents not just Donkey Kong, but the style of early platform gaming- the necessity of needing to perfect a run before the dreaded game over made you start at point one.

 

[FalKoopa]

Not a necessity for a character. If he has other options for attacks, then he has other attacks. Aerials are just one type of attack.

To build on that, there are other types of combos. Just means he has to be spot checked for them; honestly I find that a fallaciously docile argument.

In the place of the pillar, put a more stable foundation and supportive side walls. Then the pillar is shown to have been helpful in other situations, but not necessary to every solid structure.

The entire lack of ingenuity is absolutely baffling and saddening to me. Everything you all have brought up would be arguments you could make about other characters. "A dual character could never work, you would have twice the attacks each hit as anyone else; it would break the foundation of the game!" "A character cannot transform, then they will have access to twice as many moves, and it would make every other character with less moves underpowered; it would break the foundation of the game." Or, "A character cannot have five jumps..."

You can call me ignorant all you want, I call you incapable of conception, and proven wrong by precedent. I accept that you will now attempt to find some statements as to why past precedents are different, despite not actually being so.

Instead of talking in hypotheticals, if you can provide a good example/moveset of how a character would work without jumping, we'll be more inclined to listen.

 

[Wintropy]

Yeah I get all that, but I still think it's scraping the bottom of the (literal / metaphorical) barrel.

Not gonna tell you who you should or shouldn't support, I just don't think it's good to be repping a game for the sake of repping a game, and there are many, many, many, many other characters I'd much rather have before Handlebar Mariostache.

EDIT: Also what Phanpy said. I know he's talking about Captain Toad, but I think the same principle applies to the Scaffolding Scourer.

 

[Diddy Kong]

After playing a lot of Smash yesterday night since a long time (I guess 3 weeks or so) I am now heavily considering dropping ...

Am seriously much better with both and . And I especially surprised myself with my skill in , as I was able to beat my friend's with him (who destroyed all my other attempts of beating her with: ). It was funny seeing him with a character that could ****stomp my characters as well as I usually do with .

Also, I found out that my also sucks. At least, in comparision to my other characters. And... is actually quite cool to play as.

So, characters I'll put my focus on: (*)
Characters I'll put less focus on:

*: My body wasn't yet ready for a competitively viable Yoshi but now I am.

 

[Xzsmmc]

After playing a lot of Smash yesterday night since a long time (I guess 3 weeks or so) I am now heavily considering dropping ...

Am seriously much better with both and . And I especially surprised myself with my skill in , as I was able to beat my friend's with him (who destroyed all my other attempts of beating her with: ). It was funny seeing him with a character that could ****stomp my characters as well as I usually do with .

Also, I found out that my also sucks. At least, in comparision to my other characters. And... is actually quite cool to play as.

So, characters I'll put my focus on: (*)
Characters I'll put less focus on:

*: My body wasn't yet ready for a competitively viable Yoshi but now I am.

DK sucks in this game. I have no idea why he was nerfed so much from Brawl, where he was average at best.

 

[Wintropy]

No shame in dropping a character if you don't feel they work for you. I planned on playing Greninja and Cap this time, but neither of them really work for me.

It's also great to expand your horizons. I'm so glad I picked up 'Dorf and Duck Hunt, they're immensely fun and so satisfying~

 

[Deleted member]

I came into Smash 4 fully expecting to main Wario and secondary Bowser and Doc like I did in Brawl (sans Doc of course).

......slowly but surely, I think I'm becoming a Bowser main this time. It just feels more natural.


I mean, this was an omen....

 

[Kalimdori]

Instead of talking in hypotheticals, if you can provide a good example/moveset of how a character would work without jumping, we'll be more inclined to listen.

I don't necessarily agree with DukeNapoleon, but I think it is possible to do. Imagine if ROB didn't have any jumps, just his Up B, maybe make it slightly longer and faster on takeoff to compensate. He could still do aerials, still do combos, still maneuver around decently well, but wouldn't have any actual jumps.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Instead of talking in hypotheticals, if you can provide a good example/moveset of how a character would work without jumping, we'll be more inclined to listen.

I already did. A jump is only necessary for recovery, and you can go back to my previous and thesis post on the matter if you want to dispute it. Jumping is not necesary in this game- what IS necessary for gameplay is to be able to move vertically, and there are other ways Captain Toad could do that without jumping, such as his heavily advertised CART, and even something like a grappling hook to tether.

The only statement you have all said is that 'then he wouldn't have aerials,' to which I also responded. A character need not have aerials, as not all characters* actually have the same number of moves.

*This is even more prominent in a playable perspective scenario, in which characters like Zelda and Sheik pre-Sm4sh had an arsenal of double the moves, which was balanced by making transformation costly.

Yeah I get all that, but I still think it's scraping the bottom of the (literal / metaphorical) barrel.

Not gonna tell you who you should or shouldn't support, I just don't think it's good to be repping a game for the sake of repping a game, and there are many, many, many, many other characters I'd much rather have before Handlebar Mariostache.

EDIT: Also what Phanpy said. I know he's talking about Captain Toad, but I think the same principle applies to the Scaffolding Scourer.

I feel like I provided just one quick example of how Mario and Jumpman would differ utilizing Jumpmans moveset as well. I can be more explicit in this case, as I can see where it may be necessary.


NeutralB: Evasive Jump. He avoids a characters attack by jumping around the character coming for him. This would probably work better visually if the jump were viewed as being in height and not a background dimension.
DownB: A Spring that can launch him in any direction pressed immediately following the input of the move. He cannot attack in the first few frames of the launch.
SideB: Hammer Charge. He goes forward a certain distance smashing his Hammer up and down. Standard enough to be balanced in the gameplay by changing lag, speed, distance, etc.
UpB: Ladder Jump. He creates a landing platform, in the form of a climbable ladder, on which he can build up to three tracks to move upward. He can jump out of this ladder, and form another one, up to two times, before landing on 'main Smashing' ground. This gives him the ability to evade highly in the air, since he is exceptionally poor in defense and is also a lighter weight than Mario.

There ya go- a completely unseen type of character moveset, not in the slightest overpowered, and representing classic arcade Jumpman beautifully. Now the sad part comes and I am remiss about actually wanting the moves I just made.

*Sidenotes: Jumpman can remain in 8bits, because that is his form, and that differntiates him from Mario moreso- especially as we have no 8bit characters. I never thought of Jumpman as being graphically updated as DHD and ICs were.
Additionally, I am aware I only made the special moves, but in my interpretation that is how a character is made. Yes, other moves are vital to gameplay, but I think they emerge most of the time as visual cues out of balancing a character while playing, based off of the main Special moves.

 

[FalKoopa]

I already did. A jump is only necessary for recovery, and you can go back to my previous and thesis post on the matter if you want to dispute it.

The only statement you have all said is that 'then he wouldn't have aerials,' to which I also responded. A character need not have aerials, as not all characters* actually have the same number of moves.

*This is even more prominent in a playable perspective scenario, in which characters like Zelda and Sheik pre-Sm4sh had an arsenal of double the moves, which was balanced by making transformation costly.

First off, no, jumps are used for much more than just recovery. Jumps are also required for dodging projectiles, following up attacks and load of advanced techniques.

Let us a take a situation: Capt. Toad used an Up Smash, and the character gets knocked far enough upwards. What is he going to do then? Sit like an idiot waiting for the opponent to come back?

Or take another case: Falco starts lasering him. Without a jump, he can only shield for so long before he gets trapped by the stun and HE CANNOT ESCAPE IT BECAUSE HE CANNOT JUMP.

Or ROB places a gyro on the ground: He cannot get past it without hurting himself. See where this is going?

I repeat, not having jumps is a terrible idea for a Platform Fighter like smash. Unless you give a good work-around, I'm not moving from my position.

I don't necessarily agree with DukeNapoleon, but I think it is possible to do. Imagine if ROB didn't have any jumps, just his Up B, maybe make it slightly longer and faster on takeoff to compensate. He could still do aerials, still do combos, still maneuver around decently well, but wouldn't have any actual jumps.

True. Robo burner is laggy and is unwieldy for general purpose, but it kind of works, I guess.

 

[pupNapoleon]

First off, no, jumps are used for much more than just recovery. Jumps are also required for dodging projectiles, following up attacks and load of advanced techniques.

Again- give him a means to gain vertical distance (which is what I mean when I say recover), and problem solved. He doesnt need to be able to move 'up' whenever you tilt up on the control stick. In fact, maybe something else happens when you do this, and it gives him further distinction.

Let us a take a situation: Capt. Toad used an Up Smash, and the character gets knocked far enough upwards. What is he going to do then? Sit like an idiot waiting for the opponent to come back?

He could have other distance moves to attack with, in addition to moves that help him navigate the terrain without being able to jump, such as my aforementioned cart and grapple combo. Hell, if his up tilt plucked a turnip from the ground (a quick example), he could then launch that! Of course, I don't think his up tilt should do that, but just one quick suggestion.

Or take another case: Falco starts lasering him. Without a jump, he can only shield for so long before he gets trapped by the stun and HE CANNOT ESCAPE IT BECAUSE HE CANNOT JUMP.

Or ROB places a gyro on the ground: He cannot get past it without hurting himself. See where this is going?

I repeat, not having jumps is a terrible idea for a Platform Fighter like smash. Unless you give a good work-around, I'm not moving from my position.


True. Robo burner is laggy and is unwieldy for general purpose, but it kind of works, I guess.

I think the rest of this is moot because you never actually read what I first posted when I responded, that he can move vertically, just not by tapping the control stick. I repeat, JUMPING AND VERTICAL MANEUVERING ARE NOT SYNONYMS.

 

[Wintropy]

Yeah, it's a nice moveset and all, but it still doesn't do anything for me.

Look, I'm not telling you it's a bad idea or you should forget about it, I'm just saying you're not necessarily going to convince anybody of its merits by reiterating the same points.

If, by some stretch of the imagination, Jumpman did get into Smash, I'd be okay with it. I'm not actively opposed to the idea. I just think there are a lot of characters I'd much rather see.

The other thing that puts me off is how, quite honestly, these Jumpman arguments seem to stem from a personal affront at the thought that Jumpman wouldn't work. I don't know about anybody else, but I'm sure as hell not telling you it's a bad idea or that you shouldn't support it, so there's no need to vindicate yourself.

And yeah, again, Phanpy's right - not having jumps would be a terrible idea. That's eliminating an entire dimension of that character's moveset; having an up-b alone does not mitigate it. Even Little Mac, a character who stands firmly rooted to the ground and punches people, has some semblance of jumping and diversity in his movement.

 

[FalKoopa]

I think the rest of this is moot because you never actually read what I first posted when I responded, that he can move vertically, just not by tapping the control stick. I repeat, JUMPING AND VERTICAL MANEUVERING ARE NOT SYNONYMS.

You edited that after I posted. >_>

Well, looking at your Specials moveset, you did give him an evasive JUMP.

Still my point is that if he has a move to maneuver vertically, it makes little sense for it to be not assigned to the jump button, as the purpose is the same. That would actually still add to his uniqueness, as he would have a non-standard jump.

EDIT: Y'know, it has been a while since I've argued with someone online. It was fun.

 

[Wintropy]

In addition, why do we even need to complicate things?

Reinventing the wheel for the sake of "uniqueness" is not a fun gimmick, it's just obnoxious.

 

[Frostwraith]

Having a character who can't jump via normal jump button breaks the game's premise of having the same controls for all characters. That would be faulty design.

Every character follows the same control scheme, no exceptions:
- Attack button for normal moves, aerial moves and Smash attacks
- Special button for special moves, with each character having their own set of special moves
- Jump button
- Shield button
- Grab button

When you have a character that doesn't adhere to this basic scheme, the game's quality is torn apart.

Seriously, it seems people here don't even play the games themselves.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Let's add a character that isn't able to walk, we can just give him a side special that will allow him to move around.

 

[EmceeEspio]

Having a character who can't jump via normal jump button breaks the game's premise of having the same controls for all characters. That would be faulty design.

Every character follows the same control scheme, no exceptions:
- Attack button for normal moves, aerial moves and Smash attacks
- Special button for special moves, with each character having their own set of special moves
- Jump button
- Shield button
- Grab button

When you have a character that doesn't adhere to this basic scheme, the game's quality is torn apart.

Seriously, it seems people here don't even play the games themselves.

When selecting characters, I keep in mind their stature and how fluidly they would move around the battlefield.

With character suggestions like Diskun, you have to take in how each animation would look and determine if it would work. Sakurai said it himself, Ridley was too bulky and awkward, disregarding size and simply looking at posture and natural looking animation, and that compromised his inclusion.

With characters like , say, Takamaru, and even Toad, you can imagine how each character would move around and attack, at a point where it would look polished, as intended.

 

[Arcadenik]

I don't want a playable Toad in Smash if he does not have the ability to do a simple jump.

I don't care if Captain Toad cannot jump because his bag is too heavy. Smash isn't canon anyway and it doesn't have to be 100% accurate. Captain Toad should be able to jump even if he is a poor jumper like Little Mac.

 

[Kenith]

Captain Toad would not be the first character in Smash Bros. that does not jump in their own games. If they need him to have jumps to a functional character in Smash, they're not going to come up with a complicated workaround, they're just going to give him weak jumps.
Which, iirc, is not a trait exclusive to just Captain Toad.

My moveset for him involved actually changing the weight of his backpack by digging up treasure then tossing at his enemies. Killing two birds with one stone essentially and making him somewhat unique.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

I can never tell whether Captain Toad haters are biased because they don't want him in, or if they just think he won't take off his heavy backpack before going into a fight.

I myself would like to see Captain Toad in Smash, but if this is the next "Ridley is too big" sort of argument, things are going too far.

 

[N3ON]

I'd rather just have Toad.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I just want the captain for the movement and the fact that he's a specific character. Regular Toad should definitely be a costume though along with Captain Toadette and I guess regular Toadette.

 

[Wintropy]

I actually specifically want Captain Toad.

I like vanilla Toad, of course, but it's the cute little explorer getup and the backpack mechanic that really intrigues me.

 

[N3ON]

Toad is a specific character too.

 

[FalKoopa]

I'd rather just have Toad.

B-but Capt. Toad looks so much cooler. He's an explorer.

 

[Kenith]

I actually specifically want Captain Toad.
I like vanilla Toad, of course, but it's the cute little explorer getup and the backpack mechanic that really intrigues me.

I agree, the explorer theme really speaks to my imagination.

Let's add a character that isn't able to walk, we can just give him a side special that will allow him to move around.

They did, he's called Ganondorf.

 

[A Distant Demon]

captain toad has a light on his head and a backpack. regular toad doesn't

the winner is obvious

I don't care which gets in both are great.

 

[FalKoopa]

Captain Toad would not be the first character in Smash Bros. that does not jump in their own games.

and arguably .

Sorry, felt like nitpicking.

 

[Chandeelure]

There is a difference between the character DOESN'T jump and the character CAN'T jump.

 

[N3ON]

I think Captain Toad getting in over Toad would be like Dr. Mario getting in over Mario.

Yeh he had a recent game, which matters more than it should nowadays, but Toad is an iconic series staple while the Captain counterpart isn't. However it's quite possible Sakurai doesn't see him as a viable fighter, while who knows where he stands on Captain Toad. I don't think it will really matter unless CT gets more games... because in like five years when the next roster is being made his one game is going to be old news.

 

[random rendum]

The thing with Captain Toad not jumping, is that it is literally the defining factor of his games. The creators have gone on record stating that the worlds of the game were even created as they were, tiny and box like, because of this trait.

I think having a moveset based around this perceived variance is what gives him the best shot at getting in.

Not being able to jump isn't defining his worlds were like that because its a puzzle game its only there for the game

 

[Kenith]

I think that Toad is Toad.
I also think that Toad by himself isn't that enticing of a Smash fighter.
And, evidently I am not the only one, as he has never been in Smash Bros.

There is a difference between the character DOESN'T jump and the character CAN'T jump.

In the context of a video game, not really.
If Captain Toad had the physical prowess to jump with his backpack, but doesn't due to nature of his game, then what difference does it make?

 

[A Distant Demon]

I think Captain Toad getting in over Toad would be like Dr. Mario getting in over Mario.

Yeh he had a recent game, which matters more than it should nowadays, but Toad is an iconic series staple while the Captain counterpart isn't. However it's quite possible Sakurai doesn't see him as a viable fighter, while who knows where he stands on Captain Toad. I don't think it will really matter unless CT gets more games... because in like five years when the next roster is being made his one game is going to be old news.

Unless captain toad becomes DLC in which case all logic goes out the window.
Of course that would probably mean they intend to make him stick around anyway.