Character Discussion Thread

[Sehnsucht]

Why would Meta Knight be cut? he's one of the most notable newcomers in the game.

If anything, he's the one who cuts.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Why would Meta Knight be cut? he's one of the most notable newcomers in the game.

I'd presume it would be for the weak argument of balance problems, but that shouldn't be the problem considering the developers have the power to adjust his attributes to be more fair.

I mean it's not impossible to do, Project M already proved that he can be nerfed enough to be more fair but still pose a threat, and keep in mind those developers are amateurs compared to official staff members that developed games like Tekken.

 

[AEMehr]

You recommend switching Isaac out when Muddy Mole is on the roster?

What's wrong with some double retro action?? We've been getting two of them for the past two games, no harm in expecting another one to tag along with Takamaru.

I just go for Muddy instead of Lip and Mach Rider because I figure we'd get a Gameboy retro before a SNES or another NES retro character (Although they would be really cool too).

We must keep Muddy Mole to please Opossum.

Well I, for one, welcome our new marsupial overlord.

 

[Opossum]

Opposum is not Sakurai.

Not with that attitude.

Anyway, I'm glad that Diddy was revealed without a Dixie tack-on. Sort of interesting how a Tropical Freeze stage hasn't been shown, while Donkey Kong remains one of only four playable series currently on the roster without a stage (the others being Pokemon, StarFox and Kirby). Perhaps this is a sign that a DK newcomer would have a stage reveal? Perhaps they're waiting for a K. Rool reveal to show Gangplank Galleon? One can only hope.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

"Classic" is a wholly meaningless term as far as Smash goes if we're not referring to retro characters.

I disagree. Little Mac most likely would not have gotten into Smash had Punch-Out not already been a classic franchise.

Impact of the series, importance of the series, audience size of the series, popularity of the characters

All in F-Zero's favor. It is a classic and popular series. Nintendo also clearly cares about how much of an impact F-Zero has because they constantly reference it. The only reason they haven't made a new game is because they can't think of anything innovative.

potential of the characters, even recentness of the characters matters more than a non-retro series being "classic".

Like I said, Punch-Out has been absent for 5 years.

Does "classic" mean age? Mario, Zelda, DK, Metroid, Fire Emblem, Mother, Kid Icarus, Punch-Out, and the retro series are all more "classic" than F-Zero by that distinction.

Well...

Spoiler

clas·sic
ˈklasik/
adjective
adjective: classic

1. 1.
   judged over a period of time to be of the highest quality and outstanding of its kind.
   "a classic novel"
   synonyms:definitive, authoritative;More
   outstanding, first-rate, first-class, best, finest, excellent, superior, masterly
   "the classic work on the subject"
   • (of a garment or design) of a simple elegant style not greatly subject to changes in fashion.
     "this classic navy blazer"
     synonyms:simple, elegant, understated;More
     traditional, timeless, ageless
     "a classic style"
   • remarkably and instructively typical.
     "Hamlet is the classic example of a tragedy"
     synonyms:typical, archetypal, quintessential, vintage;More
     model, representative, perfect, prime, textbook
     "a classic example of Norman design"
     antonyms:atypical

noun
noun: classic; plural noun: classics; plural noun: Classics; noun: Classic
1.
a work of art of recognized and established value.
"his books have become classics"
synonyms:definitive example, model, epitome, paradigm, exemplar;More

And requests for a game don't matter for Smash either.

I'm stating reasons why F-Zero is popular.

F-Zero isn't a major Nintendo series. Being classic doesn't make it so.

I'm sorry, but those are both lies.

Except there is much more demand for many other characters.

And you think that will ultimately define priority?

First, Captain Falcon's moveset is not based on being a racer, with perhaps the exception of his speed. It's based on the beta-fighter from Dragon King.

I'm pretty sure Sakurai said he was based on being a racer.

Second, Goroh is neither similar to Captain Falcon in how he would fight

And you base this on......

nor his body structure.

Body structure eh?

I suppose having a bigger horizontal size of your torso ultimately makes you more different than having a bigger vertical size of your torso...along with a bigger head and stubbier arms.

We can sit here and analyze until the cows come home, but I guarantee you that I will find more similarities in their body structures than in Pikachu & Pichu's.

Those are the factors which get semi-clones included.

These are the 2 factors
Factor A: The character shares significant similarities in appearance, role, and body structure. (The key word being "significant" and not "exact"}
Factor B: The character is originally capable of performing a significant amount of abilities as the same character so long as they satisfy Factor A. (The only known exception to this is Ganondorf. An exception made at a time of desperate clone phone ins.)

You do not need the exact same body structure. You need similar body structure. Samurai Goroh is roughly similar to Captain Falcon's body structure. The exception being that he is wider. But, again Pichu is wider AND shorter.

Plus, Sakurai doesn't include semi-clones because they should be clones, he includes them because they could be clones. If you find even one source where Sakurai said he included a clone because they should be a clone and not because they were similar to an existing character in some regard or because they would make a feasible clone, please share it.

When I said Sakurai thinks a character should be a clone, it is under the rational assumption that said character is similar. Sakurai does state the criteria that Toon Link MUST share moves with Adult Link.

In Melee, Sakurai actually passed on characters because they were too similar to others before he decided he needed to pad the roster.

The relevance?

No, but having nothing in common with the fighting style or body structure of the original character usually does.

Nothing in common with the fighting style? As far as I know neither characters have ever fought outside of Super Smash Brothers so Samurai Goroh's fighting style would logically be the same as Captain Falcon if he was a character.

Sakurai already decided who he thought was the best fit for a Captain Falcon clone, and it wasn't Goroh.

Sakurai ultimately decided who the best fit for a Fox clone was. And it wasn't Wolf.

So obviously Goroh was not a plausible Captain Falcon clone to Sakurai. And it's not like Goroh would slip Sakurai's mind, he was even in the intro.

I'm still not getting your argument. You're saying that because he came across Ganondorf first and ultimately decided he wanted that character over Goroh that Goroh never crossed his mind? I mean the situation was that Ganondorf got in because of his similar body type. Not that he was the only choice of the many characters who had a similar body type. For all you know it was planned to be Goroh before he decided Ganondorf would work better.

Sakurai mentioned that Ganondorf was "lucky" to get in and that he only got in because he had a similar body style to Captain Falcon and he couldn't think of any more viable clones.

Notice Captain Falcon's name is not before the word "clones". He just couldn't think of any. Wolf was in the opening and he didn't think of him.

 

[N3ON]

What's wrong with some double retro action?? We've been getting two of them for the past two games, no harm in expecting another one to tag along with Takamaru.

That's assuming G&W and ROB were added because they were retro, and not for historical/hardware/etc (whatever it might be) purposes. I very much doubt Muddy (or any standard retro) could get in under the same conditions as G&W and ROB, they seem to have had ulterior reasons for inclusion.

Not to mention Sakurai has said he's only sought after a sole classic character for Melee and has "one" in mind this time around, not two.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Though I would personally consider which franchise has the most potential for a revival, I think it's a great way of finding out who the retros are in the roster.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Anyway, I'm glad that Diddy was revealed without a Dixie tack-on. Sort of interesting how a Tropical Freeze stage hasn't been shown, while Donkey Kong remains one of only four playable series currently on the roster without a stage (the others being Pokemon, StarFox and Kirby). Perhaps this is a sign that a DK newcomer would have a stage reveal? Perhaps they're waiting for a K. Rool reveal to show Gangplank Galleon? One can only hope.

The main thing here is that if we do get any newcomers relating to Donkey Kong, it's not going to be notably tied into promotion. Which is a benefit for pretty much any candidate. But I will say that with Diddy and Dixie no longer being a thing, I am grateful for that because Diddy by himself is already a total beast, and to add a easily exploitable gimmick to the mix would of been worse then Ice Climbers.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

reasons for inclusion.
Not to mention Sakurai has said he's only sought after a sole classic character for Melee and has "one" in mind this time around, not two.

I don't recall. I thought the quote was that he's working harder to bring back more older characters.

 

[BluePikmin11]

When I think about it more, since we have two "old characters" in each installment, I'm starting to really think there's no real thing as a historical character. Or maybe they are using the historical slot for another retro to revive this time around.

 

[Fire Emblemier]

With all the DK veterans confirmed, do you think it's plausible Sakurai will only show a newcomer from an already repped series once all the vets are revealed? Hey it happened with Mario, thoughts?

 

[FlareHabanero]

Historical rep is a fan coined term, so don't take it as status quo.

In fact, many rep arguments are just that. Just a theory, not a fact.

 

[pikachugamer21]

why are we talking about Meta Knight being cut please don't tell me someone actually considers that a possibility

 

[BluePikmin11]

Now I'm really wondering what the real reasons of R.O.B. and Mr. G&W are then. Besides representing Nintendo's history, what other reasons are there for their inclusion.

 

[Will]

Breaking News! Well,not really....

Is Samus doing a NEW Air Move?
Is this her new B-Air?
WHAT IS THIS?

 

[Starcutter]

Breaking News! Well,not really....

View attachment 8982

Is Samus doing a NEW Air Move?
Is this her new B-Air?
WHAT IS THIS?

I think it's just her B-air at an odd timing.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Breaking News! Well,not really....

View attachment 8982

Is Samus doing a NEW Air Move?
Is this her new B-Air?
WHAT IS THIS?

Back air.

In fact, every character in that picture is using their back aerial attack.

 

[XStarWarriorX]

With all the DK veterans confirmed, do you think it's plausible Sakurai will only show a newcomer from an already repped series once all the vets are revealed? Hey it happened with Mario, thoughts?

Indeed. My bets are on King K. Rool @e3

For the next direct, I'm gonna assume he's going to reveal a newcomer on every direct until release... so in April we'll get chrom or palutena. followed by Ike as a vet reveal later in the month.

 

[josh bones]

why are we talking about Meta Knight being cut please don't tell me someone actually considers that a possibility

In 2008 mewtwo being cut wouldn't be considered a "possibility"

 

[pikachugamer21]

With all the DK veterans confirmed, do you think it's plausible Sakurai will only show a newcomer from an already repped series once all the vets are revealed? Hey it happened with Mario, thoughts?

That is my guess and it's most likely the case

 

[Kenith]

I'm posting a new roster with a unique layout. Instead of usual series grouping, I've arranged this roster
based on the way I think the tier list will look (roughly)

Just a fun exercise.

 

[pikachugamer21]

In 2008 mewtwo being cut wouldn't be considered a "possibility"

Meta Knight isn't going anywhere I'm not arguing over this

 

[BluePikmin11]

Wii Fit Trainer top tier? I doubt that, but we'll have to see.

 

[NickerBocker]

Just a fun exercise.

I don't really understand how were supposed to rate this one, we don;t really know how strong/weak characters attacks are or what buffs or nerfs they recieved.

I do like it though. My only problem is Ike being bottom tier.

Dat forward smash...

 

[AEMehr]

That's assuming G&W and ROB were added because they were retro, and not for historical/hardware/etc (whatever it might be) purposes. I very much doubt Muddy (or any standard retro) could get in under the same conditions as G&W and ROB, they seem to have had ulterior reasons for inclusion.

Well being a historical character still make you retro, technically anyways.

Not to mention Sakurai has said he's only sought after a sole classic character for Melee and this time around, not two.

Really? I only remember him being interested in bringing back old characters, never anything about him only wanting to bring back a specific amount.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

So I was thinking of cut characters, and I came across a locked thread made by @ Ura .
It was about what characters would be locked, and it was locked due to it being absolutely pointless.

I thought I'd post his thoughts of who would get cut, and share my thoughts on his thoughts.

This is what he said:
"It's always unfortunate when it happens but sometimes, it has to be done. Ever since Brawl, there's always been a few characters that end up not making the cut. I suspect that this will be the case as well with SSB4.

So, just who exactly is getting the boot? Here are my predictions...

Ike: His game was almost 10 years ago. I figured that he made it into Brawl since he was the popular Fire Emblem character at the time but that has since changed. I would be surprised to see him again in SSB4.

Snake: Excluding that one 3DS game, Snake hasn't appeared in a Nintendo console for quite some time now. This and the fact that Sakurai doesn't want a lot of third party characters also lessens his chance due to the popular inclusion of Megaman and the returning Sonic.

R.O.B: I think he was a one time only deal. It was just Nintendo's way to showcase the history of the NES. Would be surprised to see him return.

Lucas: The hype for Mother 3 has fizzled out since Brawl's release. I don't think Lucas will end up in SSB4 mainly due to the fact that the Mother franchise isn't really active anymore. Ness is the only lock when it comes to Mother related characters.

Kanto Pokemon Trainer: I do believe that a Pokemon Trainer will be playable in SSB4 but not the Kanto one. I think Nintendo is going to roll with a more recent trainer from the Unova/Kalos region and they will use PKMN from one of the 2 regions. That's just my guess.

Ganondorf (possibly): He hasn't appeared in a Nintendo game (excluding Brawl) since 2006. Sure, he was in ALBW but not in the main villain role. I could see him not returning to SSB4 but given the fact that he was present in Melee and Brawl, I wouldn't could him out just yet.

So who do you see not returning to SSB4?"

My thoughts:
Ike: Unlike Roy, he wasn't a clone, and had a completely different Moveset from Marth. The fact that he has a different and unique Moveset should keep him from being cut. Being a clone was one of the main factors that Roy was cut.

Snake: Question. How long was it since he appeared on a Nintendo system since the release of Brawl. Also, Snake Eater 3D.

R.O.B.: Then what do you call Mr. Game & Watch?

Lucas: Brawl came out 2 years after Mother 3. There was no reason for "hype." Even if you mean popularity of Mother 3, you'd still be wrong. There are still many Mother fans who are passionate about getting Mother 3 in America.

Kanto Pokémon Trainer: If Sakurai wanted to have a recent Pokémon Trainer in Smash, he would have had Sinnoh Trainer in Brawl instead of the classic one. Plus Kanto Trainer has some of the most popular Pokémon ever: Charizard, Squirtle, and to an extent Ivysaur, even though the other forms of it are more popular.

Ganondorf: He is still the main antagonist of the Zelda series. The only reason that he hasn't appeared since 2006 is because there hasn't been a Zelda console game since then that he would make sense to appear in. I know there was Skyward Sword, but that was supposed to be an origin story, and story-wise, it wouldn't make sense for him to appear in it.

 

[Kenith]

Wii Fit Trainer top tier? I doubt that, but we'll have to see.

Maybe not the very top, but I'm sure she'll be up there. Same for Mac, he looks like a monster.

Spoiler

Especially like this.

 

[?????????????]

@ Mega Bidoof

SMX already posted that on this thread last night, after the original thread was locked.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

@ Mega Bidoof

SMX already posted that on this thread last night, after the original thread was locked.

Oh.

Did he get raged at?

 

[Fire Emblemier]

I'm posting a new roster with a unique layout. Instead of usual series grouping, I've arranged this roster
based on the way I think the tier list will look (roughly)

View attachment 8984

Just a fun exercise.

For tier placement I would switch around Ganondorf and Lucas, as I suspect Lucas and Ness will usually be about even and Ganondorf, wouldn't rise up that much. Fox should be higher, behind MK is my bet. Ike should be right in front of PKMN trainer, I'm not expecting any huge nerfs from him, as he wasn't OP, and usually only the OP get the big nerfs. I'm not totally sure about the rest just using my knowledge.

 

[pikachugamer21]

So I was thinking of cut characters, and I came across a locked thread made by @ Ura .
It was about what characters would be locked, and it was locked due to it being absolutely pointless.

I thought I'd post his thoughts of who would get cut, and share my thoughts on his thoughts.

This is what he said:
"It's always unfortunate when it happens but sometimes, it has to be done. Ever since Brawl, there's always been a few characters that end up not making the cut. I suspect that this will be the case as well with SSB4.

So, just who exactly is getting the boot? Here are my predictions...

Ike: His game was almost 10 years ago. I figured that he made it into Brawl since he was the popular Fire Emblem character at the time but that has since changed. I would be surprised to see him again in SSB4.

Snake: Excluding that one 3DS game, Snake hasn't appeared in a Nintendo console for quite some time now. This and the fact that Sakurai doesn't want a lot of third party characters also lessens his chance due to the popular inclusion of Megaman and the returning Sonic.

R.O.B: I think he was a one time only deal. It was just Nintendo's way to showcase the history of the NES. Would be surprised to see him return.

Lucas: The hype for Mother 3 has fizzled out since Brawl's release. I don't think Lucas will end up in SSB4 mainly due to the fact that the Mother franchise isn't really active anymore. Ness is the only lock when it comes to Mother related characters.

Kanto Pokemon Trainer: I do believe that a Pokemon Trainer will be playable in SSB4 but not the Kanto one. I think Nintendo is going to roll with a more recent trainer from the Unova/Kalos region and they will use PKMN from one of the 2 regions. That's just my guess.

Ganondorf (possibly): He hasn't appeared in a Nintendo game (excluding Brawl) since 2006. Sure, he was in ALBW but not in the main villain role. I could see him not returning to SSB4 but given the fact that he was present in Melee and Brawl, I wouldn't could him out just yet.

So who do you see not returning to SSB4?"

My thoughts:
Ike: Unlike Roy, he wasn't a clone, and had a completely different Moveset from Marth. The fact that he has a different and unique Moveset should keep him from being cut. Being a clone was one of the main factors that Roy was cut.

Snake: Question. How long was it since he appeared on a Nintendo system since the release of Brawl. Also, Snake Eater 3D.

R.O.B.: Then what do you call Mr. Game & Watch?

Lucas: Brawl came out 2 years after Mother 3. There was no reason for "hype." Even if you mean popularity of Mother 3, you'd still be wrong. There are still many Mother fans who are passionate about getting Mother 3 in America.

Kanto Pokémon Trainer: If Sakurai wanted to have a recent Pokémon Trainer in Smash, he would have had Sinnoh Trainer in Brawl instead of the classic one. Plus Kanto Trainer has some of the most popular Pokémon ever: Charizard, Squirtle, and to an extent Ivysaur, even though the other forms of it are more popular.

Ganondorf: He is still the main antagonist of the Zelda series. The only reason that he hasn't appeared since 2006 is because there hasn't been a Zelda console game since then that he would make sense to appear in. I know there was Skyward Sword, but that was supposed to be an origin story, and story-wise, it wouldn't make sense for him to appear in it.

I doubt if anyone here would actually agree with him I know I don't

 

[Kenith]

So I was thinking of cut characters, and I came across a locked thread made by @ Ura .
It was about what characters would be locked, and it was locked due to it being absolutely pointless.

I thought I'd post his thoughts of who would get cut, and share my thoughts on his thoughts.

This is what he said:
"It's always unfortunate when it happens but sometimes, it has to be done. Ever since Brawl, there's always been a few characters that end up not making the cut. I suspect that this will be the case as well with SSB4.

So, just who exactly is getting the boot? Here are my predictions...

Ike: His game was almost 10 years ago. I figured that he made it into Brawl since he was the popular Fire Emblem character at the time but that has since changed. I would be surprised to see him again in SSB4.

Snake: Excluding that one 3DS game, Snake hasn't appeared in a Nintendo console for quite some time now. This and the fact that Sakurai doesn't want a lot of third party characters also lessens his chance due to the popular inclusion of Megaman and the returning Sonic.

R.O.B: I think he was a one time only deal. It was just Nintendo's way to showcase the history of the NES. Would be surprised to see him return.

Lucas: The hype for Mother 3 has fizzled out since Brawl's release. I don't think Lucas will end up in SSB4 mainly due to the fact that the Mother franchise isn't really active anymore. Ness is the only lock when it comes to Mother related characters.

Kanto Pokemon Trainer: I do believe that a Pokemon Trainer will be playable in SSB4 but not the Kanto one. I think Nintendo is going to roll with a more recent trainer from the Unova/Kalos region and they will use PKMN from one of the 2 regions. That's just my guess.

Ganondorf (possibly): He hasn't appeared in a Nintendo game (excluding Brawl) since 2006. Sure, he was in ALBW but not in the main villain role. I could see him not returning to SSB4 but given the fact that he was present in Melee and Brawl, I wouldn't could him out just yet.

So who do you see not returning to SSB4?"

My thoughts:
Ike: Unlike Roy, he wasn't a clone, and had a completely different Moveset from Marth. The fact that he has a different and unique Moveset should keep him from being cut. Being a clone was one of the main factors that Roy was cut.

Snake: Question. How long was it since he appeared on a Nintendo system since the release of Brawl. Also, Snake Eater 3D.

R.O.B.: Then what do you call Mr. Game & Watch?

Lucas: Brawl came out 2 years after Mother 3. There was no reason for "hype." Even if you mean popularity of Mother 3, you'd still be wrong. There are still many Mother fans who are passionate about getting Mother 3 in America.

Kanto Pokémon Trainer: If Sakurai wanted to have a recent Pokémon Trainer in Smash, he would have had Sinnoh Trainer in Brawl instead of the classic one. Plus Kanto Trainer has some of the most popular Pokémon ever: Charizard, Squirtle, and to an extent Ivysaur, even though the other forms of it are more popular.

Ganondorf: He is still the main antagonist of the Zelda series. The only reason that he hasn't appeared since 2006 is because there hasn't been a Zelda console game since then that he would make sense to appear in. I know there was Skyward Sword, but that was supposed to be an origin story, and story-wise, it wouldn't make sense for him to appear in it.

Ganondorf cut? No. Thank. You.

 

[Peekolow]

duck hunt dog
duck hunt dog

 

[?????????????]

Oh.

Did he get raged at?

It's on page 153.

 

[NickerBocker]

Ganondorf (possibly): He hasn't appeared in a Nintendo game (excluding Brawl) since 2006. Sure, he was in ALBW but not in the main villain role. I could see him not returning to SSB4 but given the fact that he was present in Melee and Brawl, I wouldn't could him out just yet.

This is why the thread was locked.

Spoiler

But in all seriousness, Skyward Sword pretty much had Ganondorf. Sure, Demise wasn't exactly Ganondorf, but besides the name, there was really no difference whatsoever. At the end of SS, Demise says something along the lines "I will haunt your sons and daughters for generations to come" basically saying I will return to have my revenge. What form is that exactly? Ganon, or Ganondorf, depending on the incarnation. Ganondorf never went away, he just took on a different form. The spirit of Ganondorf was alive and well, in the form of his ancestor(?)

 

[Mega Bidoof]

duck hunt dog
duck hunt dog

That's a nice spam ya got there.
It would be a shame if someone were to report it.

This is why the thread was locked.

Spoiler

But in all seriousness, Skyward Sword pretty much had Ganondorf. Sure, Demise wasn't exactly Ganondorf, but besides the name, there was really no difference whatsoever. At the end of SS, Demise says something along the lines "I will haunt your sons and daughters for generations to come" basically saying I will return to have my revenge. What form is that exactly? Ganon, or Ganondorf, depending on the incarnation. Ganondorf never went away, he just took on a different form. The spirit of Ganondorf was alive and well, in the form of his ancestor(?)

[collapse=Skyward Sword spoilers]
Skyward Sword's whole purpose was to explain the origins of the Master Sword, and Ganon himself. Which is why Ganondorf himself didn't appear.
I'd put money on the fact that he will appear in Zelda U.
[/collapse]

 

[BluePikmin11]

It's not spam, he's new here.
Give him a chance.

 

[Sehnsucht]

duck hunt dog
duck hunt dog

Gesundheit.

 

[Ura]

Oh.

Did he get raged at?

Somewhat. I just need people to know that the list I posted isn't characters I want to get cut but rather characters that may get cut from SSB4. If they all end up returning, that would be just fine.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

Somewhat. I just need people to know that the list I posted isn't characters I want to get cut but rather characters that may get cut from SSB4. If they all end up returning, that would be just fine.

Ok, good.

To be fair, there are the most popular characters proposed to be cut.
There are just justifications against that for all of them.