Character Discussion Thread

[Lilfut]

I'm gonna say, numbers-wise, that the maximum plausible DLC is 10 characters throughout the game's entire 5-10 year lifespan. Probably not even that much. As much as I want about a million characters (Porky! Tabuu! Simon! Arthur!), I'm pretty sure things will be pretty constrained.

 

[ShrekItRalph]

Oh I wouldn't go as far as ten, Smash characters take a long time to make so I couldn't see us getting over 5 new unique characters (Unless they add more clones then I could see ten).

 

[Lilfut]

Like I said, I'm saying over the game's entire lifespan.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Oh I wouldn't go as far as ten, Smash characters take a long time to make so I couldn't see us getting over 5 new unique characters (Unless they add more clones then I could see ten).

They won't take as long to make if the whole Smash team did all of those DLC characters at the same time, just like they did with the base game. :U

 

[ShrekItRalph]

They won't take as long to make if the whole Smash team did all of those DLC characters at the same time, just like they did with the base game. :U

That's what assuming they will do, I'm just not expecting that many new characters.

 

[PSIBoy]

Personally, I agree to a degree. The issue is that Lucas in many of the basic stats of movement, air speed, weight, etc is a lot more similar to Ness than Falco is to Fox or Ganondorf to Captain.
His different d-air, vertical smashes, grab, and the differences in specials make him more differentiated than the Link clones who DO have stat differences that are significant but have the same moveset. That's my stance on it.
Falco now plays a LOT differently than Fox in this evolution of the game due to general speed and how Falco has a TON of multi-hit moves across his standard A moves that are different than Fox's and Ganondorf is a different beast than Falcon in a number of ways.
I know about Jiggs, people have tried to bring up them as a tier of cloning like Luigi but they're as much clones as Link is to Shulk.

True. I had not considered weight and speed honestly. You bring up a good point. However, I will still argue that Ganondorf still shares a lot of moves with CF (Warlock Punch, Dark Dive, Wizards Foot, F-Smash, D-Smash, U-air, N-air (I think?), and B-air). Of course, they have different effects, speed, vulnerability, and timing, but not different enough to make much of a difference. Falco also shares Fire Bird, F-tilt, D-tilt, B-air, maybe U-air, not sure on that one, and Final Smash (like that one matters, though). Lucas only really 'shares' some of his moves, but the only ones reply tell close in function would be PKT and PSI Magnet, and Final Smash. F-Smash's speed runs circles around Ness's, D-tilt has different animation, PK Fire is more for spacing as opposed to combos, and PK Freeze freezes people and flies much further and faster than PK Flash. Outside of weight and speed, Lucas is far more unique than Falco and Ganondorf.

 

[Burruni]

True. I had not considered weight and speed honestly. You bring up a good point. However, I will still argue that Ganondorf still shares a lot of moves with CF (Warlock Punch, Dark Dive, Wizards Foot, F-Smash, D-Smash, U-air, N-air (I think?), and B-air). Of course, they have different effects, speed, vulnerability, and timing, but not different enough to make much of a difference. Falco also shares Fire Bird, F-tilt, D-tilt, B-air, maybe U-air, not sure on that one, and Final Smash (like that one matters, though). Lucas only really 'shares' some of his moves, but the only ones reply tell close in function would be PKT and PSI Magnet, and Final Smash. F-Smash's speed runs circles around Ness's, D-tilt has different animation, PK Fire is more for spacing as opposed to combos, and PK Freeze freezes people and flies much further and faster than PK Flash. Outside of weight and speed, Lucas is far more unique than Falco and Ganondorf.

Ganondorf's Warlock Punch has IMMENSE super armor on it (CAN TANK REST WITHOUT FLINCHING), while Falcon Punch has none. Dark Dive actually has a strong hitbox at the end of it while Captain's Up+B lacks this attribute. B-Air is an immense kill move just shy of the power of The Knee while it is almost forgotten as an aerial on Captain. N-Air I believe is different altogether.
Falco's Fire Bird has SIGNIFICANTLY less range while having more kill power. Ironic that the bird flies less distance.
Lucas had more unique aerials than I remembered. His F-Smash, D-Tilt, and special differences are no more different than the attributes to Ganondorf and Falco in the way I see it.

Lucas has a more differentiated moveset than Falco or Ganondorf. However, the way that he plays is very similar to the way Ness does because the characters themselves are so similar. Those "Stat" differences are what make significantly more differentiated than someone like . I feel that Ganondorf lacks the "Rush down" Brawler gameplay that Captain has at the exchange of being a very defensive tank who can match a full combo of attacks in percent with only 2 or 3 hits. Falco is a lot more about racking up damage with his swift multi-hit aerials and his projectile is more likely to be used for stopping campers than doing damage outright. Lucas is STILL a small and fairly light Mother Protagonist whose main strengths are PK-Fire harass, great throws, and strong aerials.

I loved Mother 3, and caught far more interest in P:M Lucas than Brawl Lucas. However, I feel that a character who shares a bit more of a moveset but uses it in a different gameplay style and has a significant difference in the "stats" of the character is more unique as a clone-type. You make some good points, I won't argue. I learned a bit more about Lucas through looking up things for this conversation. But... I can't see myself wavering on this issue.

Edit: What I meant about Dark Dive is that there is the normal span where Ganondorf ascends and will latch onto the fighter for the shock attack. However, just at the end of the ascent, The Gerudo King finishes a spiral with a dark flame coating his fist. THAT is a hitbox with a surprising amount of launch.

 

[PSIBoy]

Ganondorf's Warlock Punch has IMMENSE super armor on it (CAN TANK REST WITHOUT FLINCHING), while Falcon Punch has none. Dark Dive actually has a strong hitbox at the end of it while Captain's Up+B lacks this attribute. B-Air is an immense kill move just shy of the power of The Knee while it is almost forgotten as an aerial on Captain. N-Air I believe is different altogether.
Falco's Fire Bird has SIGNIFICANTLY less range while having more kill power. Ironic that the bird flies less distance.
Lucas had more unique aerials than I remembered. His F-Smash, D-Tilt, and special differences are no more different than the attributes to Ganondorf and Falco in the way I see it.

Lucas has a more differentiated moveset than Falco or Ganondorf. However, the way that he plays is very similar to the way Ness does because the characters themselves are so similar. Those "Stat" differences are what make significantly more differentiated than someone like . I feel that Ganondorf lacks the "Rush down" Brawler gameplay that Captain has at the exchange of being a very defensive tank who can match a full combo of attacks in percent with only 2 or 3 hits. Falco is a lot more about racking up damage with his swift multi-hit aerials and his projectile is more likely to be used for stopping campers than doing damage outright. Lucas is STILL a small and fairly light Mother Protagonist whose main strengths are PK-Fire harass, great throws, and strong aerials.

I loved Mother 3, and caught far more interest in P:M Lucas than Brawl Lucas. However, I feel that a character who shares a bit more of a moveset but uses it in a different gameplay style and has a significant difference in the "stats" of the character is more unique as a clone-type. You make some good points, I won't argue. I learned a bit more about Lucas through looking up things for this conversation. But... I can't see myself wavering on this issue.

For some reason, I keep getting knocked out of Warlock Punch even with super armor. Is the super armor only active on a certain part of the attack? Or does it work only up to a certain percent?

While I do see your points, I do not feel Ness and Lucas play anything alike, maining both characters for about two years now. Lucas's grab is really bad despite long reach, so I don't see it used as often as Ness's. Ness relies more on his grabs and what he can do out of them. Ness's PK Fire is more ideal to combos while stick it on Lucas and it would only hamper his fighting style (spacing) and vice versa for Ness. Plus, Ness would do better to fight in the air abusing f-air and n-air as well as using b-air and u-air for kills. On top of that, Ness's b-throw is probably the strongest throw in the game, killing before 125 in some cases. Lucas, however, has a mediocre air game. His f-air lacks range and is slow, his b-air is spiking unlike Ness but lacks range as well. D-air can spike, but is four hits (unlike Ness's one slow big hit) and is more ideally suited to racking up damage instead of giving a slam dunk. Lucas's n-air is good, however, and is for damage, not spacing like Ness. Plus, Lucas's only real KO moves are his smashes, and those aren't always the best. Later on f-air and b-throw can KO at 140 give or take.

Point is, Ness seems to be more of a character who relies largely on grabs, possible combos out of them, and aerials to rack up damage, then finish them off with a b-throw or aerial. Lucas, on the other hand, mainly relies on spacing and his superior ground game to rack up damage, then try to connect with a smash to finish them off. If that fails, then b-throw and f-air are available.

I think this is futile, but I am not only enjoying this debate because I can finally talk about Smash and gameplay mechanics and styles, but a small bit of hope that won't die.

 

[Burruni]

For some reason, I keep getting knocked out of Warlock Punch even with super armor. Is the super armor only active on a certain part of the attack? Or does it work only up to a certain percent?

While I do see your points, I do not feel Ness and Lucas play anything alike, maining both characters for about two years now. Lucas's grab is really bad despite long reach, so I don't see it used as often as Ness's. Ness relies more on his grabs and what he can do out of them. Ness's PK Fire is more ideal to combos while stick it on Lucas and it would only hamper his fighting style (spacing) and vice versa for Ness. Plus, Ness would do better to fight in the air abusing f-air and n-air as well as using b-air and u-air for kills. On top of that, Ness's b-throw is probably the strongest throw in the game, killing before 125 in some cases. Lucas, however, has a mediocre air game. His f-air lacks range and is slow, his b-air is spiking unlike Ness but lacks range as well. D-air can spike, but is four hits (unlike Ness's one slow big hit) and is more ideally suited to racking up damage instead of giving a slam dunk. Lucas's n-air is good, however, and is for damage, not spacing like Ness. Plus, Lucas's only real KO moves are his smashes, and those aren't always the best. Later on f-air and b-throw can KO at 140 give or take.

Point is, Ness seems to be more of a character who relies largely on grabs, possible combos out of them, and aerials to rack up damage, then finish them off with a b-throw or aerial. Lucas, on the other hand, mainly relies on spacing and his superior ground game to rack up damage, then try to connect with a smash to finish them off. If that fails, then b-throw and f-air are available.

I think this is futile, but I am not only enjoying this debate because I can finally talk about Smash and gameplay mechanics and styles, but a small bit of hope that won't die.

I'll admit, I don't know WHAT part of Warlock Punch has super armor. I know I've taken a Rest on the chin and a few up smashes from people trying to get an easy attack on me when falling down with the move. I believe it is on the wind up once his hand has fully retracted in the ~1/4th of a second that he charges his fist before the launch.

And.. well, I've never played either of the Mother boys to a far extent. I'm not that big of a fan of projectile-heavy gameplay (despite loving Bowser Junior) and I always felt that their recoveries were too much of an issue. As someone who plays a METRIC TON of Ganon, I felt a need to particularly defend him as you did with Lucas. Thanks for all the info on their differences.
On a numerical value, I'd definitely raise Lucas's "divergence number" almost to the level of Falco. Thanks for your time and knowledge. I surely hope Lucas comes back through DLC with possibly a more "unique" feel to him... but I was in that boat before.

 

[PSIBoy]

I'll admit, I don't know WHAT part of Warlock Punch has super armor. I know I've taken a Rest on the chin and a few up smashes from people trying to get an easy attack on me when falling down with the move. I believe it is on the wind up once his hand has fully retracted in the ~1/4th of a second that he charges his fist before the launch.

And.. well, I've never played either of the Mother boys to a far extent. I'm not that big of a fan of projectile-heavy gameplay (despite loving Bowser Junior) and I always felt that their recoveries were too much of an issue. As someone who plays a METRIC TON of Ganon, I felt a need to particularly defend him as you did with Lucas. Thanks for all the info on their differences.
On a numerical value, I'd definitely raise Lucas's "divergence number" almost to the level of Falco. Thanks for your time and knowledge. I surely hope Lucas comes back through DLC with possibly a more "unique" feel to him... but I was in that boat before.

Hey, no problem. I actually really enjoyed debating with you on this. I think this might have been my first actual debate on this site... Man, I never talked Smash at this kind of level before!

I've also taken a few hits with Ganon and super armor working too, but it just seems to not work most of the time. And I also main Ganon too, but rarely played Falcon and mainly relied upon videos I've seen on YouTube (fail videos are not the best source) and now that I think about it, Ganon's n-air has more hits than Falcon's.

While I hope for Lucas's return, I do not view it likely unless a Mother 3 worldwide release happens. That or Sakurai bias, and the latter didn't help for him getting into the game in the first place it seems like.

And sorry if I offended you in any way, shape, or form.

 

[Burruni]

Hey, no problem. I actually really enjoyed debating with you on this. I think this might have been my first actual debate on this site... Man, I never talked Smash at this kind of level before!

I've also taken a few hits with Ganon and super armor working too, but it just seems to not work most of the time. And I also main Ganon too, but rarely played Falcon and mainly relied upon videos I've seen on YouTube (fail videos are not the best source) and now that I think about it, Ganon's n-air has more hits than Falcon's.

While I hope for Lucas's return, I do not view it likely unless a Mother 3 worldwide release happens. That or Sakurai bias, and the latter didn't help for him getting into the game in the first place it seems like.

And sorry if I offended you in any way, shape, or form.

Not at all, but it basically came down to "I put Lucas as more of a clone than Ganon and Falco because he physically is really similar to Ness and frankly I haven't played either of them so I'mma ramble about ThunderCougarFalcondorf."
I'd love to chat more on Personal Messages than clogging up the character discussion thread with some of the nitty-gritty discussion of how one particular character falls within a hierarchy.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Barely anyone really complains about semi-clones like Lucas in this forum anyway.

 

[Burruni]

Barely anyone really complains about semi-clones like Lucas in this forum anyway.

My original point was the issue being clones that were "clonier" than Lucas, definitely along the lines of and to a lesser extent . As I cited before, Dixie vs King K. Rool. The debate for the next bit was how much Lucas was a clone in comparison to "Falcondorf" and Falco.

 

[Arcadenik]

Barely anyone really complains about semi-clones like Lucas in this forum anyway.

That's only because Dark Pit and Lucina made Lucas haters suddenly realize that Lucas wasn't a clone... you know, since those two (especially Dark Pit) made Lucas look better in comparison... that, combined with the anti-cutting mentality around here made Lucas retroactively popular and unique. JMO

 

[LasermasterA]

Yea Lucas and Wolf are not much of clones especially compared to Dark Pit and Lucina.

Lucina does deal damage differently but Dark Pit is almost completely just a palette swap. Sakurai said that he had to make Dark Pit a new character altogether, just so that he can have a different Final Smash.

Obviously, it is the demand for cut veterans to be added back that is fueling Lucas and Wolf's much increased popularity. Even Snake in that case. That is why the poll for DLC demands has them with some of the highest votes.

http://smashboards.com/threads/poll-vote-for-your-preferred-smash-bros-dlc-choices.375784/

For newcomers the highest votes are for Dixie, K. Rool and Isaac.

 

[[Obnoxshush/Dasshizer]]

Yea Lucas and Wolf are not much of clones especially compared to Dark Pit and Lucina.

Lucina does deal damage differently but Dark Pit is almost completely just a palette swap. Sakurai said that he had to make Dark Pit a new character altogether, just so that he can have a different Final Smash.

Obviously, it is the demand for cut veterans to be added back that is fueling Lucas and Wolf's much increased popularity. Even Snake in that case. That is why the poll for DLC demands has them with some of the highest votes.

http://smashboards.com/threads/poll-vote-for-your-preferred-smash-bros-dlc-choices.375784/

For newcomers the highest votes are for Dixie, K. Rool and Isaac.

Where did Sakurai say that? Link please

 

[LasermasterA]

Where did Sakurai say that? Link please

Yea over here:

http://nintendoeverything.com/sakurai-on-the-clone-characters-in-smash-bros-wii-u3ds/

"Sakurai goes on to say that Lucina and Marth have different sword properties. While Dark Pit and Pit are the same, making Dark Pit a separate character was required in order to give him “his unique arm and Final Smash”. And as far as Dr. Mario is concerned, the team felt “old Dr. Mario fans would not agree to Dr. Mario being the same as Mario, so we went on to give him a unique customizable set.”

He made Dark Pit separate for the unique arm and a different Final Smash.

 

[Curious Villager]

I remember when people used to complain for days on end when Toon Link was confirmed. (Which as a Toon Link main, was a bit of a headache after a while....) Then it slowly died down when Lucina was confirmed and the bickering shifted over to her, and it was a whole other story when Dark Pit and Dr. Mario where leaked....

I guess most people generally got over him when they found out there was bigger fish to fry, as Arcadenik stated....

 

[Twin Shot]

Could see Young Link as DLC if he was an Alt Skin (ala Alph) for Toon Link.
Only problem with that is that the animations for all of the moves would need to be made non-toony for that specific skin.

Third Parties that would stand a chance would be Snake and Ray-man, don't see others happening.

 

[LasermasterA]

I doubt ANY (including the cut veteran Snake) 3rd parties will be in DLC.

Nintendo has already tons of Nintendo characters queuing up for a chance in Smash. I would prefer if Nintendo stuck to those.

 

[JaidynReiman]

I doubt ANY (including the cut veteran Snake) 3rd parties will be in DLC.

Nintendo has already tons of Nintendo characters queuing up for a chance in Smash. I would prefer if Nintendo stuck to those.

There is a difference between "prefer" and "expect." I do agree that I would prefer Nintendo to add their own DLC's as characters. That said, I do feel that if Nintendo and Sakurai wanted to add Snake in the game, they would have kept him in the game by default. I also think third-party DLC will be much harder to add than getting them in the game by default.

 

[LasermasterA]

There is a difference between "prefer" and "expect." I do agree that I would prefer Nintendo to add their own DLC's as characters. That said, I do feel that if Nintendo and Sakurai wanted to add Snake in the game, they would have kept him in the game by default. I also think third-party DLC will be much harder to add than getting them in the game by default.

Well I should have mentioned both then.

Snake was completely removed. His codec conversations which were one of the most unique things about him were replaced by Palutena's Guidance. Snake would have stayed if he was on Nintendo consoles but he is just not important enough to guarantee an inclusion again. Even Kojima didn't really expect Snake to stick and he did not say he asked Sakurai like he did during Brawl.

3rd party DLC is a no from me and probably a no from Nintendo as well. Unless it is a 3rd party exclusive series which are sort of non-existent on Wii U but some are there on 3DS but they would have been included if they were to be. Like you said.

Bayonetta is too adult for Smash and cutting that part of her will cut from her character as well so not her as well.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Well I should have mentioned both then.

Snake was completely removed. His codec conversations which were one of the most unique things about him were replaced by Palutena's Guidance. Snake would have stayed if he was on Nintendo consoles but he is just not important enough to guarantee an inclusion again. Even Kojima didn't really expect Snake to stick and he did not say he asked Sakurai like he did during Brawl.

3rd party DLC is a no from me and probably a no from Nintendo as well. Unless it is a 3rd party exclusive series which are sort of non-existent on Wii U but some are there on 3DS but they would have been included if they were to be. Like you said.

Bayonetta is too adult for Smash and cutting that part of her will cut from her character as well so not her as well.

B-b-b-b-b-but Bayonetta has so much potential as a fighter

 

[LasermasterA]

B-b-b-b-b-but Bayonetta has so much potential as a fighter

Hey don't worry

I would love her to be added but I doubt it because without all that she won't be Bayonetta anymore.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

B-b-b-b-b-but Bayonetta has so much potential as a fighter

True she has moveset potential, but let's be real here, she will not happen.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

True she has moveset potential, but let's be real here, she will not happen.

Whats makes you say that? Moveset potential is a lot, because they don't have to detract much from her. Most people don't look past the whole "It's Rated M" thing, I mean sure some of her moves will have adult themes, but that's the thing! A bit of change to one or two moves, but you don't have to dig to find child friendly moves that also fit her theme. Gimme a sec to find example.
EDIT:

This is just one example from Bayo 2.
Keeping her clothed isn't such a hard task, it's just that people are only looking at the sexual themes as a reason not to include her. I sped through writing this so forgive me for grammar and spelling mistakes

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

Whats makes you say that? Moveset potential is a lot, because they don't have to detract much from her. Most people don't look past the whole "It's Rated M" thing

Who cares about the rated M argument? Bayonetta is THIRD PARTY. We don't need any more third party characters.

 

[BluePikmin11]

I say we wait for the next few DLC character reveals, that will probably determine if we'll likely get more 3rd parties as DLC.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

I say we wait for the next few DLC character reveals, that will probably determine if we'll likely get more 3rd parties as DLC.

Yeah, but I highly doubt we will get any more third party characters as DLC.

Hell, I even doubt my avatar will make it in as DLC. See?

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Who cares about the rated M argument? Bayonetta is THIRD PARTY. We don't need any more third party characters.

Nintendo has a treasure trove of characters they can use,
however if they were taking 3rd parties into consideration, I'd say Platinum would receive a bit more attention.
Platinum Games may be 3rd party, however they have a better relationship with Nintendo than say, Konami.
I'm not expecting her, I am simply saying she has a lot of potential as a fighter.
Which does happen to apply to a lot of characters

 

[JaidynReiman]

Nintendo has a treasure trove of characters they can use,
however if they were taking 3rd parties into consideration, I'd say Platinum would receive a bit more attention.
Platinum Games may be 3rd party, however they have a better relationship with Nintendo than say, Konami.
I'm not expecting her, I am simply saying she has a lot of potential as a fighter.
Which does happen to apply to a lot of characters

No one denied she has potential as a fighter.


The problem with Bayoneta is she's too mature, she'd bring the rating of Smash Bros. up. If she's toned down, then its not suited to her style.

Speaking of which, Snake is in a very similar boat. Snake was a more mature character. Even when toning him down, Brawl still got a T rating. This game is E-10+, and even Tharja had to be removed as a trophy to keep the rating. Bayoneta is even worse than Tharja.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

No one denied she has potential as a fighter.


The problem with Bayoneta is she's too mature, she'd bring the rating of Smash Bros. up. If she's toned down, then its not suited to her style.

Speaking of which, Snake is in a very similar boat. Snake was a more mature character. Even when toning him down, Brawl still got a T rating. This game is E-10+, and even Tharja had to be removed as a trophy to keep the rating. Bayoneta is even worse than Tharja.

I'm blinded by bias.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

I'm blinded by bias.

Actually, Jaidyn's right on this one. Snake being from a Rated M series and the character he is, it would've been really hard to make him look child friendly, hence why Bayo would be the same problem.

And he's right about Tharja too. Here's a source to prove it.
http://nintendoeverything.com/rumor...om-smash-bros-3ds-to-avoid-higher-age-rating/

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Actually, Jaidyn's right on this one. Snake being from a Rated M series and the character he is, it would've been really hard to make him look child friendly, hence why Bayo would be the same problem.

And he's right about Tharja too. Here's a source to prove it.
http://nintendoeverything.com/rumor...om-smash-bros-3ds-to-avoid-higher-age-rating/

I remember the whole thing about Tharja. Also I was agreeing with Jaidyn, I just didn't write it out properly XD. I understand, but I'm still going to hope.

 

[BluePikmin11]

No one denied she has potential as a fighter.


The problem with Bayoneta is she's too mature, she'd bring the rating of Smash Bros. up. If she's toned down, then its not suited to her style.

Speaking of which, Snake is in a very similar boat. Snake was a more mature character. Even when toning him down, Brawl still got a T rating. This game is E-10+, and even Tharja had to be removed as a trophy to keep the rating. Bayoneta is even worse than Tharja.

Why can't you do something similar to Rosalina's galaxy censor?:

 

[LasermasterA]

I remember the whole thing about Tharja. Also I was agreeing with Jaidyn, I just didn't write it out properly XD. I understand, but I'm still going to hope.

Here's to hope that they can tone down Bayonetta without making her lose her charm.

Obviously I will support Isaac first.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Here's to hope that they can tone down Bayonetta without making her lose her charm.

Obviously I will support Isaac first.

Impa before Bayonetta of course

 

[LasermasterA]

Impa before Bayonetta of course

I don't mind.

Isaac before both

 

[Deleted member]

Can someone explain to me how Snake was "toned down" aside from not smoking?

 

[vaanrose]

Is the "Bayonetta should be in Smash" thing a joke I'm not it on, or are people serious with this?

Because I don't see how she compares as a third party to Snake, let alone Pac-Man, Mega Man or Sonic.