Character Discussion Thread

[BluePikmin11]

Namely he served as the primary antagonist for 5 Donkey Kong games. (DKC 1-3, Donkey Kong Land 1 because 2 and 3 were just ports of DKC 2 and 3, and DK 64) and lead the Kremling forces.

Imagine if Bowser disappeared from Mario after Super Mario 64 except for some very small games most people forgot about and another character's spin-off sports game, and there were only 3 other "big" Mario games that were 2D platformers released afterwards without sign of Bowser, Goombas, Koopas, etc, and the boss of said third game did a lot of attacks similar to Bowser. Bowser would still be very important, arguably "Needed" to the vast majority of Mario, but just not recently.

Was both of the DKL games really notable titles as DKC? I'm not sure it's one of the known roles K. Rool was known for.
Still that's not enough to cover it for me that he's really the "iconic" antagonist he is.

 

[ihskeyp]

This is a ridiculous argument. King K Rool is the Bowser to Donkey Kong. His precise impact on the games need not be explained, because it cannot be, there are low levels of continuity and even less story.

Except Bowser is still appearing in the new installments of his series.

 

[Diddy Kong]

K.Rool has appeared in his series as the main villain more often than Ganondorf (not Ganon though).

Are we satisfied now?

 

[BluePikmin11]

K.Rool has appeared in his series as the main villain more often than Ganondorf (not Ganon though).

Are we satisfied now?

No, you just telling me the games Rool appeared in and comparing him to an iconic villain and not convincing me he's iconic.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Except Bowser is still appearing in the new installments of his series.

Not always- there are plenty of other people who occasionally do.
We didn't see K Rool in two games- and it is clear that DKCR is bringing back content slowly, based even on the progression we have seen in two games alone.
It is not as if he is gone forever simply because he is absent in two games, which are proving to bring back elements of the old series bit by bit.

 

[Rockaphin]

Where's the huge impact K. Rool did though? You're not specifying.

Being the main antagonist of at least eight games in the Donkey Kong series seems very "impactful" to the series itself if you ask me. Even his minions are lurking in Smash Run.

I'm not a Zelda fan, but I don't think Ganondorf had any significant roles in the latest Zelda games. Does that make him less iconic to the series? No, not really.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Being the main antagonist of at least eight games in the Donkey Kong series seems very "impactful" to the series itself if you ask me.

Even his minions are lurking in Smash Run.

But were they "impactful" appearances he's had in the DKC games?

 

[Burruni]

Was both of the DKL games really notable titles as DKC? I'm not sure it's one of the known roles K. Rool was known for.
Still that's not enough to cover it for me that he's really the "iconic" antagonist he is.

I meant that of the "Core" of Donkey Kong games, in regards to the DK in Smash and not the arcade game, here is what we have

Donkey Kong Country 1-3
Donkey Kong Land 1-3 (GB/GBC titles, only 1 was a "unique" game as 2 and 3 were ports of their Country games with the same number)
Donkey Kong 64
Donkey Kong: Jungle Beat
Donkey Kong Country Returns (with a 3DS port)
Donkey Kong Country Returns: Tropical Freeze.

Barring the remakes, that means we have 8 "core" Donkey Kong games. Of them, 5 have King K. Rool as the antagonist.

Now, when we look at the spin-offs and far more "minor" games...

Donkey Konga 1 & 2
Konga 3 (Japan Only)
Donkey Kong: King of Swing
Donkey Kong: Barrel Blast
Donkey Kong: Jungle Climber.

Of ALL of these 6 titles which are fairly insignificant for the history of DK, King K. Rool is the Primary Antagonist or a "Rival Character" in the case of the Konga games... because it's like Mario DDR Dance Mix.

King K. Rool has been in the series for the VAST Majority, just not in Jungle Beat and the two released Returns games.

Edit: Now, looking at it, he's a prominent role in 11/14 DK games. Just off-hand I think that ratio has a better history than Ganon in Zelda.

Edit to the Edit: Add in the remakes, that's actually 13/17.

 

[Rockaphin]

But were they "impactful" appearances he's had in the DKC games?

I mean, the entire story was surrounded around King K. Rool. You tell me.

 

[BluePikmin11]

I meant that of the "Core" of Donkey Kong games, in regards to the DK in Smash and not the arcade game, here is what we have

Donkey Kong Country 1-3
Donkey Kong Land 1-3 (GB/GB titles, only 1 was a "unique" game as 2 and 3 were ports of their Country games with the same number)
Donkey Kong 64
Donkey Kong: Jungle Beat
Donkey Kong Country Returns (with a 3DS port)
Donkey Kong Country Returns: Tropical Freeze.

Barring the remakes, that means we have 8 "core" Donkey Kong games. Of them, 5 have King K. Rool as the antagonist.

Now, when we look at the spin-offs and far more "minor" games...

Donkey Konga 1 & 2
Konga 3 (Japan Only)
Donkey Kong: King of Swing
Donkey Kong: Barrel Blast
Donkey Kong: Jungle Climber.

Of ALL of these 6 titles which are fairly insignificant, King K. Rool is the Primary Antagonist or a "Rival Character" in the case of the Konga games... because it's like Mario DDR Dance Mix.

King K. Rool has been in the series for the VAST Majority, just not in Jungle Beat and the two released Returns games.

The spin-offs are pretty insignifcant, was K. Rool known for that?
DK64 though seems to be praised alot and it was demanded by people to come to VC, I could call it a major appearance for K. Rool. He only has 4 major known appearances total, but now he's just not appearing in any more new DKC games.

 

[DreamFiend633]

If Mach Rider is in, do you think he could have inherited Snake's moveset?

 

[Diddy Kong]

But were they "impactful" appearances he's had in the DKC games?

Yes. Quite so.

In DKC1, he's a rather straight forward villain: he steals the Kongs bananas, and gets beaten badly for it.

In DKC2, he takes all-out revenge on Donkey Kong alone, capturing him. And tormenting him even with his blunderbuss untill Diddy comes to his resque. He even takes on the attire of a pirate, and takes the captured DK to his own homebase: Crocodile Island.

DKC3 rolls in, and K.Rool captures both DK and Diddy by tricking them, finally forcing them to run his own killer robot. Dixie goes searching for both of her buddies, and finally resques them.

DK64 is where things get real interessting. King K.Rool decides he wants to get rid of the Kongs forever, and builds an ultimate weapon capable of destroying his whole island. Except, the weapon breaks down unexpectedly, so he goes for a new tactic: he captures all Kongs he can, and DK's Golden Bananas / Banana Hoard to stall him out, allowing him to repair the Blast-O-Matic.

What makes K.Rool "impactful" is that he always goes to the extreme, and just a little step further in his ambitions (which ironically change all the time). This makes him a villain who's truely unpredictable, chaotic, and all around badass.

 

[Burruni]

The spin-offs are pretty insignifcant, was K. Rool known for that?
DK64 though seems to be praised alot and it was demanded by people to come to VC, I could call it a major appearance for K. Rool. He only has 4 major known appearances total.

Okay. 4 Major Known Appearances, by how you're tallying that. Then the generic bosses of Jungle Beat, Tiki Tong in DKCR and Lord Frederik in DKCR:TF have only one under each of their belts. Making him still the most iconic villain by far.

Of those games, let's look at Dixie's major roles.

DKC2
DKC3
DKCR:TF

Three games. And I'd argue that her role in TF is made lower in that she is one of three options for a partner, if that game is "recent" enough to factor into her chances for Smash 4.

Edit: I don't really care of either of them make it in, no personal ties to either, but I agree that DK is more than justified a third representative and I would prefer to see K.Rool over Dixie for the variety.

 

[Rockaphin]

The spin-offs are pretty insignifcant, was K. Rool known for that?
DK64 though seems to be praised alot and it was demanded by people to come to VC, I could call it a major appearance for K. Rool. He only has 4 major known appearances total.

While this game isn't very popular, he was the main antagonist of DK King of Swing. Therefore, another game which the story focuses around him.

Also, the DKC series was a huge success. I mean, a HUGE hit on the SNES.

If Mach Rider is in, do you think he could have inherited Snake's moveset?

I would hope that his moveset would mainly focus around his bike. I mean, it's possible for him(or her) to implement some of Snake's moveset.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Donkey Kong Land is also a completely different game from Donkey Kong Country, and of course K.Rool is also in there. DKL2 and DKL3 could be seen more as the same story, but the levels of the game are drastically different. The K.Rool end boss fight is quite different in DKL3 though.

DK Jungle Climber is King K.Rool's last actual role in the series. In that game, he robs an alien from his planet's power source : the Crystal Bananas and plans to take over all there is with them. Which also adds up to his ambitions; he simply doesn't want to destroy Donkey Kong anymore, he moved on to grander things.

 

[NickerBocker]

The reason K Rool hasnt appeared in the DKC games recently is because Retro Games didnt want to ride the coattails of Rare by using Kremlings and K Rool. They wanted to do their own thing to prove they can make DK games.

K Rool might not be back, but he hasnt been phased out. He just hasnt appeared.

Keep in mind Ganondorfs last (canon) game was Twilight Princess.

 

[Masonomace]

If Mach Rider is in, do you think he could have inherited Snake's moveset?

As long as Mach Rider is WiiU exclusive for HD purposes, gets added to 3DS later, & if Sakurai personally contacting Michael Bay for explosions. Much win right guys?

 

[BluePikmin11]

Now I'm convinced Sakurai is going to think that K. Rool is no longer the main villain of new DK games, and since recency is a factor for today's marketing, they are probably going to roll with Dixie instead.

The reason K Rool hasnt appeared in the DKC games recently is because Retro Games didnt want to ride the coattails of Rare by using Kremlings and K Rool. They wanted to do their own thing to prove they can make DK games.

K Rool might not be back, but he hasnt been phased out. He just hasnt appeared.

Keep in mind Ganondorfs last (canon) game was Twilight Princess.

What about Wind Waker HD?

 

[~Krystal~]

As long as Mach Rider is WiiU exclusive for HD purposes, gets added to 3DS later, & if Sakurai personally contacting Michael Bay for explosions. Much win right guys?

You sound disappointed. Whatsa matter? Not feeling it?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Problem is that Nintendo still refuses to do much with DKC themselves. They either just don't know how to handle the series or are far too stubborn to give what fans really want, and always try and let another developer 'give it their best shot'. Retro seems to listen to most what fans say, having included both Dixie Kong as a character and David Wise as a composer to Tropical Freeze (a game I haven't even played I'll tell you) but the series needs more than that alone. And it can do so much more! Am just dissapointed that with all the new approaches Nintendo seems to take on their excisting franchises, examples being : Pokken, Hyrule Warriors, Fire Emblem x SMT - they are still leaving out Donkey Kong.

 

[Burruni]

Problem is that Nintendo still refuses to do much with DKC themselves. They either just don't know how to handle the series or are far too stubborn to give what fans really want, and always try and let another developer 'give it their best shot'. Retro seems to listen to most what fans say, having included both Dixie Kong as a character and David Wise as a composer to Tropical Freeze (a game I haven't even played I'll tell you) but the series needs more than that alone. And it can do so much more! Am just dissapointed that with all the new approaches Nintendo seems to take on their excisting franchises, examples being : Pokken, Hyrule Warriors, Fire Emblem x SMT - they are still leaving out Donkey Kong.

This I agree with for simple reasons.

Like the original Mario trilogy on the NES, DKC had 3 BIG games on the SNES that were insanely profitable and printed money.

Like Mario, it had one big console game on the 64 that was a massive collectathon that people thought was the second coming of gaming Jesus.

The difference is that Micro$oft took the main developers to go make Kameo, Viva Pinata, and otherwise exclusively terrible games.

Nintendo LOST the team that made Donkey Kong Country was it was, naturally they were cautious as to what to do with it... but I feel for a bit too long.

I love the reward of what we got with Retro Studios with the Returns games because they feel just like the Rareware titles... just with less Kremlings.

I do sincerely hope DKCR3 will have the rebirth of Kremlings and K.Rool, since the first two proved that they can succeeed without riding on the coat tails associated with the characters and thus can move onto making some with them.

Honestly, most of DK's experimentation into different genres happened with Diddy Kong Racing and the Konga-based games.
I'm not EXACTLY sure where you would go with the characters, really.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Duck Hunt is your spiritual Banjo Kazooie character

I was just starting to think that the mutt might be a neat addition.

Are you trying to make me hate him with a burning fury?

 

[NickerBocker]

Now I'm convinced Sakurai is going to think that K. Rool is no longer the main villain of new DK games, and since recency is a factor for today's marketing, they are probably going to roll with Dixie instead.

What about Wind Waker HD?

I wasn't including remakes

 

[CrusherMania1592]

Dr.Mario is a ****.

I really want to be like you when I grow up, but damn man chillax. Not a good role model to do that kind of behavior on the internet.

 

[Burruni]

I was just starting to think that the mutt might be a neat addition.

Are you trying to make me hate him with a burning fury?

Why exactly would Duck Hunt using some moves similar to Banjo & Kazooie make you hate him?

Spiritual character doesn't mean that they'd be just applying their assets, it means that there'd be clear aspects of the N64 dynamic duo into the moveset because there isn't a TON from the original source. Is that so bad?

 

[Diddy Kong]

I really want to be like you when I grow up, but damn man chillax. Not a good role model to do that kind of behavior on the internet.

Am not supposed to be nobody's role model on here. You are on the internet, and I'm not here to post to please people. I just wanted to share my opinion.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I think that regardless what happens with Smash and the veterans that could be cut, those veterans cuts should return as DLC. Yes, even Snake.

Each character represents something that can really make Smash great. Wolf is essentially completely unique from his Star Fox furfriends, Lucas could use a little bit to differentiate further but would be good anyway, Ice Climbers are the Ice Climbers, and Snake brings a trap setting archetype that was represented well in his moveset. Simply adding those guys back as DLC would take this game a long way in my opinion. I might be biased with Snake, but I don't think anybody can deny what he brought to Smash.

 

[Rockaphin]

If DLC becomes a thing, I think the cut veterans should become top priority.

 

[False Sense]

I think that regardless what happens with Smash and the veterans that could be cut, those veterans cuts should return as DLC. Yes, even Snake.

Each character represents something that can really make Smash great. Wolf is essentially completely unique from his Star Fox furfriends, Lucas could use a little bit to differentiate further but would be good anyway, Ice Climbers are the Ice Climbers, and Snake brings a trap setting archetype that was represented well in his moveset. Simply adding those guys back as DLC would take this game a long way in my opinion. I might be biased with Snake, but I don't think anybody can deny what he brought to Smash.

Well, he brought a ton of hilarious codec conversations, that's for sure.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Snake always screamed 'guest character' the most to me. But I wouldn't be opposed to his return at all. I just feel that Villager took a lot of inspiration from Snake's playstyle.

Wolf and Lucas am the most anxious about actually. But that screenshot with Wolf and Impa makes me feel somewhat at ease with Wolf. I just can't see a good reason to cut Lucas, if they bring back clones as Dr.Mario and add Dark Pit. A semi-clone like Lucas wouldn't take that much extra effort? I'd even take it if they made Ness a sort of hybrid version of Ness / Lucas and made Lucas a complete clone of that.

 

[Burruni]

Just wanted to state now that is actually pretty different from . In general, his speicals are more-utility, less-damaging versions of Ness's and their dash attacks are about the same. Otherwise, his tilts, Aerials, and vertical smashes were completely different, he had a tether grab/recovery, and really differentiated himself out.. he's not as clone-y as he first appears.

 

[MagnesD3]

I think that regardless what happens with Smash and the veterans that could be cut, those veterans cuts should return as DLC. Yes, even Snake.

Each character represents something that can really make Smash great. Wolf is essentially completely unique from his Star Fox furfriends, Lucas could use a little bit to differentiate further but would be good anyway, Ice Climbers are the Ice Climbers, and Snake brings a trap setting archetype that was represented well in his moveset. Simply adding those guys back as DLC would take this game a long way in my opinion. I might be biased with Snake, but I don't think anybody can deny what he brought to Smash.

I concur it is a freaking crime that a main character from a series like Wolf would just be cut like that, it disgusts me.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Why exactly would Duck Hunt using some moves similar to Banjo & Kazooie make you hate him?

Spiritual character doesn't mean that they'd be just applying their assets, it means that there'd be clear aspects of the N64 dynamic duo into the moveset because there isn't a TON from the original source. Is that so bad?

My salty tears come solely from Banjo never being able to make his way to Smash. I hate everything that reminds me of that.

Pure bias on my part, my apologies.

On the topic of cut veterans, all I need is Snake. Just Snake alone would make everything so much better.

 

[Masonomace]

Knowing that Banjo-Kazooie may never be in Smash Brothers as any cameo appearance let alone a fighter, DHD would be a spiritual reminder for them. I'm still baffled that Ducks are friendly with DHD but this is video game logic so moving on.

I like this discussion. Archetype character styles missing in this game- though I think honestly Sakurai has gone above this to make certain characters of these styles more fleshed out than ever seen before- and other concepts entirely original in their own right.
I'd love to see:

• Of course, the Grappler
• A healing character. I do not count Wii Fit.
• A trap character; this is where I see King K Rool. Or Andy. Setting up bases, etc.
• A summoner. Isaac or Pokemon Trainer would do this well.
• A functional move stealing character, something akin to Mokujin, or Shang Tsung

Sakurai has stated point blank that he is not doing that in this game, and that each character is being derived from scratch. I believe this is the reason we will get this game competitive, actually- but this is my personal take. Rather than having many across the board mechanics, such as in melee, each character will have a world of individual utilities to perfect.

• Many things can be done to answer these styles of game-play. Grappler throughout Smash, the closest thing to it was IC's with their grab gimmicks, but the battle style that IC's portrayed did not fill the Grappler quota. Grappler as a fighter would introduce for the first time ever in Smash Brothers, an air grab like Lucario's Air Force Palm in Project M. Other qualities can go into Grapplers being grab-heavy etc..
• Healing character or just more healing moves in general are barely touched on & would believe that Robin's Nosferatu won't be the last. A play-style revolving around heavy healing as a tactic would go to an obvious choice like Project M Ivysaur or Sceptile being Grass-type solar powered pokemon, or perhaps HOT (healing over time) moves for a utility special move for custom move-sets.
• Abstaining from Trap Characters. Although I felt Snake was a trap character? Maybe Idk what a 'trap' character is.
• Summons would be do-able. Zelda's Down B already makes this reailty & can co-exist in Smash. Abstaining from Issac due to lack of knowledge, PT would be great with very quick thrown start-up pokeball summons compared to the regular time to throw a regular Pokeball item.
• Villager using pocket for this meta is as true as Summons being in the game via Zelda's DownB. It can be a continuing mechanic that others may use through custom move-sets or more of a concept like your examples including Rogue from X-men.

 

[Pakky]

Speaking purely hypothetically, who would be a better villain from the Mother series, Porky or the Masked man (Claus)? Also I'm starting to think that Wolf is more important than Falco.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Speaking purely hypothetically, who would be a better villain from the Mother series, Porky or the Masked man (Claus)?

None of the above/Giygas/Giegue.

 

[Burruni]

None of the above/Giygas/Giegue.

Actually, I argue Porky because just how utterly cruel and standing he is as a villain is possibly grander than Giygas/Giegue.

Giegue felt like he had less impact on the world, and happened to be what you had to stop for the plot.

Giygas was this looming thing, with Porky always turning up that appears always wanting Ness to join him.

Porky, in Mother 3, ends up ruining EVERYTHING and ultimately... it could be said that he wins, while Lucas pulls the 7th Needle, Porky survives the end of the world as an immortal being. Giegue/Giygas was a grander evil, some supernatural entity. Porky was such a more emotional boss that you almost feel sad for with how much he misses his only friend, Ness, in the events of Mother 2 and 3 and makes you hate him so much at the same time.

That's my opinoin.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Actually, I argue Porky because just how utterly cruel and standing he is as a villain is possibly grander than Giygas/Giegue.

Giegue felt like he had less impact on the world, and happened to be what you had to stop for the plot.

Giygas was this looming thing, with Porky always turning up that appears always wanting Ness to join him.

Porky, in Mother 3, ends up ruining EVERYTHING and ultimately... it could be said that he wins, while Lucas pulls the 7th Needle, Porky survives the end of the world as an immortal being. Giegue/Giygas was a grander evil, some supernatural entity. Porky was such a more emotional boss that you almost feel sad for with how much he misses his only friend, Ness, in the events of Mother 2 and 3 and makes you hate him so much at the same time.

That's my opinoin.

Eh, I just care more for the actual big bad rather than the lacky. It'd be like getting Zant over Ganondorf.

...My opinion isn't as deep and detailed.

 

[MagnesD3]

Speaking purely hypothetically, who would be a better villain from the Mother series, Porky or the Masked man (Claus)? Also I'm starting to think that Wolf is more important than Falco.

Of course he is the main rival/antagonist of Star Fox and is the leader of the Star Wolf Team!!!

Also about your question HalfDead encapsled spider bot Porky is definitely the best villain to be an earthbound rep, hes consistent to the series and unique.

My salty tears come solely from Banjo never being able to make his way to Smash. I hate everything that reminds me of that.

Pure bias on my part, my apologies.

On the topic of cut veterans, all I need is Snake. Just Snake alone would make everything so much better.

As a Diehard Banjo Kazooie fan and Starfox fan videogame life is difficult... Ive lost Rare, I almost have lost star fox and am apparently about to lose Wolf from smash. Its pretty awful...

 

[mark welford]

all I know is that wolf deserves to be in. he is unique, he is a main character of his series plus we need more villains lord knows we do sometimes I buy games just to play as the villains. I'm knocking the doc but seriously? Dr. Mario? of all characters to bring back from the dead they could of did better cutting wolf (if he is cut of course) for this guy? what is sakurai thinking? guess we will never know.