Character Discussion Thread

[Masonomace]

@MorbidAltruism write that down

 

[Deleted member]

I fail to see how fantasizing about characters riding unicorns provides evidence to anything to be frank.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

Why are we going off topic about characters riding unicorns?!

 

[Masonomace]

Why are we going off topic about characters riding unicorns?!

It was answering a single difference between Dark Pit & Pit. I only have 2 / 23 reasons atm but. .

I can do that later. I'm going to brb & search up anything semi-useful for predicting character's reveals on certain days.

 

[Burruni]

I'm going to try to remove this conversation from the unicorns, and propose a hypothetical situation. If you were able to create an option in the customizable specials of one of the returning veterans we have yet to see in the game, what would you do?

Example 1 (Moderate change): Jiggypuff's Sing is replaced with "Dazzling Gleam", a character within 1.5x the range of sing is facing Jigglypuff when the move is triggered (decent starting windup, akin to the reeling back of DK's B punch) will be stunned as if hit with a Deku nut (instead of being put asleep) and about the same end lag as Sing. Higher risk, higher reward, slightly different properties. [Seems a little imbalanced? Just an idea to implement the Fairy-type.]

Example 2 (Radical): Wario's Shoulder Ram from Project M replacing his Bike move in Brawl. For those who don't know, it is a forward-carrying charge that can travel about half the distance of FD, which gains in damage and knockback the further it travels. Has MAJOR end lag and can be shielded. Can be jumped out of for a bit of distance, but has less power. If it hits a wall, Wario will "bounce" off it. If used in the air and fails to make contact, it puts him in a helpless state.

Example 3 (Minor): Mr. Game & Watch "Mega-Bucket", stores 5 projectiles instead of 3, but gives a higher multiplier to the result damage.

 

[Deleted member]

It doesn't answer anything.
As I said, coloration would be the only thing I'd be able to discern from Mario/Luigi, Fox/Wolf, and Peach/Rosalina (provided Luma's not with her) in the exact same situation.

If you want a list of differences between them in design (as there are plenty outside of just color that I've accidentally discovered) and in a hypothetical scenario where both are separate characters, I can do that.
Just no ridiculous "what-if" scenarios like the unicorn thing.

 

[Masonomace]

@ Burruni
If it were up to me I would make a customize-able UpB option that's a vertical recovery move to react to spikes / meteor smashes.

Example 1: Balloon mechanic: Each time you consume a jump with Jiggs, you intake air making your balloon model size a tad bigger as you expand out during your normal jumping animation of puffing up slightly. The more you collect, the larger distance your UpB deflates with controllable DI guiding replacing her taunt from Brawl so to speak.

Example 2 & 3 for now will be put on hold.

@GoldenYuiitusin
I feel a tad bad because I was semi-adulting around with the Uniquecorn pun, I'm down to list actual characteristic differences between them.

 

[Deleted member]

@ Masonomace
Hate to pull a procrastination case, but I will set up a list tomorrow since I'm rather tired tonight.

Though I will point out for the subject in general that a lot of the points used by people against Dark Pit didn't seem to affect this from happening:

 

[Masonomace]

@GoldenYuiitusin
Understandable, Good Mornight man, Thanks for Chatting!

Edit: That did just kinda disprove clone / semi clone dittos because it's 2 different play-styles going head to head. Identical appearance =/= identical fighting

 

[Spazzy_D]

@ Masonomace
Hate to pull a procrastination case, but I will set up a list tomorrow since I'm rather tired tonight.

Though I will point out for the subject in general that a lot of the points used by people against Dark Pit didn't seem to affect this from happening:

And that's how Dark Pit SHOULD be if he get's in the game. Semi-clone AT THE MOST.

 

[Masonomace]

I'm feeling more confident Dark Pit would be KI:U's 3rd character slot over Medusa, not sure about Hades since I didn't play the game much I'll leave that future debate out & stop while I'm ahead.

 

[Charkoaler]

Waluigi is best playable character

 

[Masonomace]

Best support playable character,

 

[Charkoaler]

I would father Waluigi's children, he needs to be playable in smash

 

[~Krystal~]

Clearly one of the most powerful ATs.

 

[Masonomace]

Waluigi's ground-pounding stomps into the ground is DK level, & attack speed faster than rapid jabs. That tennis swing though, definitely aces a KO.
Edit: You know when your AT in the next game isntallment is buffed & more vpowerful, that sets you up in a good position for AT - Playable status.

Oh man I could make an AT tier list, but don't feel like it. I might dip out to sleep myself.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I completely believe she would be a clone. Part of why I think Toon Zelda has a good chance of being on the roster is because it seems to me that they tweaked a lot of Zelda's moves in order to get ready for a variation. Not to mention the Phantom Slash, which would have been a perfect side special for Toon Zelda had they wanted to make her an original character. I'm not sure how much you read of the conversation I had a couple nights ago, but I mentioned that Marth was changed up in certain areas that people complained about before we got Lucina. The same could be happening with Zelda. My thought was that Zelda will have a better air game, while Toon Zelda would have the advantage on the ground with quicker attacks and what not.

Now only adding a clone to the Zelda roster might seem a little out of left field when you consider that just about every other newcomer has been very unique, and even when we got a clone we also got a unique newcomer from the same franchise. To justify adding Toon Zelda, I think Ganondorf will end up getting revamped, or at least do to him what they did to Bowser. When you think about how bad of a character Ganondorf was considered as in Brawl, I feel as if they have to change him up somehow. We would then have four characters and two clones representing Zelda, which seems like an alright ratio when you consider that we have Fox, a clone, and a semi-clone representing Star Fox. It may not be what most people desire, but it's definitely not anywhere out of the realm of possibility.

Here is the thing, and I just thought of this...
They did not change Marth to add Lucina, they changed Lucina from being exactly akin to Marth when she was a costume. It was not in contrast at the time. (well, upon typing this, I find, it may have been, that just seems strange to me).
I cannot say for sure what made them decide to add her- as Sakurai's explanation is in fact not an explanation at all. Yet, it does seem clear it did not involve altering Marth in the first place FOR her. She was going to be an alternate costume, and then was not.
If Toon Zelda is in she had to have been a planned clone, unlike Lucina; she is just like Toon Link, with planned differences, namely height, which could have never allowed her to be considered an alternate costume (if Toon Link himself was not considered one... which perhaps he was? We aren't fully told he was not. Hmm, interesting point, Duke.). This could have meant altering Zelda for her, which I do not see indication of them having done (and is just too difficult to tell from such little evidence and the necessity of changes to Zelda given her loss of Sheik and inherent rebalance from such).

I
I'm not sure why everyone is suddenly lowering their opinions on K. Rool and Ridley, it seems odd that Mega Man is the only "heavy hitter," the only character who had massive amounts of requests. Sure, Mac and Palutena had decent support, but it was nowhere near that level, surely Sakurai is hiding some of the more requested characters, he does know what people ask for. Similarly with Mewtwo, while not a newcomer he is the most requested character that isn't Mega Man, I don't personally care whether he's in or out, but it would still be a big kick to the balls and a middle finger to the fans if he weren't included.

Precisely; and it is why, from a marketing standpoint, I have said since I got to this forum (though hoped otherwise) that it would be unlikely that, if they were revealed AT ALL, it would be any time other than right before the game, yet likely more so they are secret.

Sakurai has shown that he is listening to the fans requests and giving more than the things we thought we wanted- he implements the ideas we ask for on a way that appeals to far more than the ones who ask, to actually appeal to the detractors of the requested idea as well!
After as much thought as he has put into balancing additions for casual and competitive gamers alike, as well as Nintendo's involvement in promoting Smash to promote Nintendo, I could not at all think we would not see fan service to adding in characters who are the 'big obvious ones wanted.' The quite literal only reason not to add someone like K Rool, Ridley, or Mewtwo at this point is because he does not want to- they are highly desired, deserving on any front, requested, have movesets that write themselves, have huge legacies with Nintendo...
Not just that, being fully aware of just how badly the fans of this series actually want these three characters, and then going out of his way to hint, tease, and lead them on for over a year, to then not offer them to a fully satisfactory level is entirely an irreverent act toward fans, and that is not him.

He wanted to add in the New IPs, and that is what he has done, to appeal to more fans. This raised hype, got more people on board for smash during the year, and got all of us who were interested anyway to see more possibilities, and to become aware of more games while waiting for Smash (yay, gaming!).
He announced all of these characters earlier on when we weren't counting down the last few characters, so that we would have time to warm up to them, accept them into the family, and not place unreasonable demands on only our favorites. How angry would EVERYONE be if Wii Fit Trainer were revealed TODAY instead of last year? It set the stage quite well.
We fans who have wanted one of the big Three in were going to buy this game anyway- new people may buy this game because of Robin, Villager, Pacman, Little Mac, or Miis.

Furthermore, the trailers serve to introduce newcomers. Who needs an introduction to one of the three most requested characters for this game? We stuck around and helped generate publicity by getting more and more involved in the announcements for this game, from direct, to E3, to tournament, tweet, post, hashtag wars, you name it- the marketing plan for this game has been absolutely genius!...
And it will be concluded, most likely with either a big reveal before the game, if Sakurai wants no surprises- or with, the surprises he wanted in the game since 64- a warning: challenger approaching, and unsuspecting fans flipping out over Ridley, Over King K Rool, over Mewtwo- because they did not see them in the trailers in the game at purchase, but instead, just stumbled upon the battle, and freaked out. Sakurai lives to freak fans out with that joy.

 

[pupNapoleon]

*Sorry for the double post, thought that someone would post in between. Please don't merge them as they are quite different, and both would be nullified if merged.*

ROB wasn't the best or most flushed out character in Brawl. But you know what he has? An original friggin' moveset that nobody can really replace. It's why I am so upset when people say Jigglypuff is going to be cut because she isn't that key to the Pokemon games anymore. Character's role in smash > Role in their own games when it comes to being kept imo.

Umm...
There are characters who can do Jigglypuffs moveset better than she can.
And considering Jigglypuff is a character on the MOST dynamic and competitive franchise for spots in smash, it would be absolutely feasible to give her move set to someone else.
She is great for her move set and terrible for her Intellectual Property. The most obvious compromise is to retire her and allow her to spiritually live on by giving her move set to another character.
Keeping something the same just because that is how it has always been without any option to accept change or reasonably see the necessity of it is inherently the breakdown of, and I use this word quite literally, EVERYTHING.
While I do not proclaim that keeping Jigglypuff in the game will be the demise of the quality and the games themselves, I do in fact state that the mentality she must stay because she is in and it cannot thusly be changed for no other reason, that change is bad because it is change (like in any other case where flexibility cannot be reached) will be the doom.

 

[Jiggly]

Umm...
There are characters who can do Jigglypuffs moveset better than she can.
And considering Jigglypuff is a character on the MOST dynamic and competitive franchise for spots in smash, it would be absolutely feasible to give her move set to someone else.
She is great for her move set and terrible for her Intellectual Property. The most obvious compromise is to retire her and allow her to spiritually live on by giving her move set to another character.
Keeping something the same just because that is how it has always been without any option to accept change or reasonably see the necessity of it is inherently the breakdown of, and I use this word quite literally, EVERYTHING.
While I do not proclaim that keeping Jigglypuff in the game will be the demise of the quality and the games themselves, I do in fact state that the mentality she must stay because she is in and it cannot thusly be changed for no other reason, that change is bad because it is change (like in any other case where flexibility cannot be reached) will be the doom.

this is why we need a dislike button

jkjk, but man, you need to notice something. People aren't all about characters bc of movesets, they like them because they enjoy the series, or the character itself. yes they could easily give Jigg's moveset to someone else, but it's JIGGLYPUFF. She was a big anime influence, and recently was affected by the new type. It it a cool character, and that's why I like her, not bc of how her moveset it, but because it is jigglypuff. Many people like Ganondorf, and ganondorf is a terrible character. Sure we discuss how they could make him better, but having him in the game makes many fans happy.

I would be very disappointed if they gave away jigglypuff's moveset, because she is one of my favorite characters :D

 

[TeenGirlSquad]

Cutting Jigglypuff would be like cutting Captain Falcon, it just can't be done.

 

[Niala]

this is why we need a dislike button

jkjk, but man, you need to notice something. People aren't all about characters bc of movesets, they like them because they enjoy the series, or the character itself. yes they could easily give Jigg's moveset to someone else, but it's JIGGLYPUFF. She was a big anime influence, and recently was affected by the new type. It it a cool character, and that's why I like her, not bc of how her moveset it, but because it is jigglypuff. Many people like Ganondorf, and ganondorf is a terrible character. Sure we discuss how they could make him better, but having him in the game makes many fans happy.

I would be very disappointed if they gave away jigglypuff's moveset, because she is one of my favorite characters :D

I quite agree with your overall point that people are free to like characters for a multitude of reasons, not just for their moveset. The criteria I use to define what makes a character deserving or not is most certainly different from yours, which is most certainly different from that of everybody else. We'd run out of things to talk about if we all agreed so simply on which characters are most likely/deserving. It's our unique choices that make it interesting, and make our rosters reflect us as people, rather than a community at large.

 

[pupNapoleon]

this is why we need a dislike button

jkjk, but man, you need to notice something. People aren't all about characters bc of movesets, they like them because they enjoy the series, or the character itself. yes they could easily give Jigg's moveset to someone else, but it's JIGGLYPUFF. She was a big anime influence, and recently was affected by the new type. It it a cool character, and that's why I like her, not bc of how her moveset it, but because it is jigglypuff. Many people like Ganondorf, and ganondorf is a terrible character. Sure we discuss how they could make him better, but having him in the game makes many fans happy.

I would be very disappointed if they gave away jigglypuff's moveset, because she is one of my favorite characters :D

She was not that important to the anime, and ultimately what you just said is merely that a lot of people like her. I don't find that to be a very valid reason, because I guarantee that many people like her for play style, and then others just like her because she is cute. Everyone won't like any decision.
I don't like that Squirtle is likely cut. I'm sure many don't. He is more prominent in the anime, and in the games. If you don't want her to be cut, fine, but your entire reason for her staying is that she has a fan base, so she should stay. In which case I say, she can be an alt character swap for whomever her move set is given to- because as much as anyone wants to argue it, there are a limited number of slots for each series, otherwise we could easily have 18 Pokemon.

This leads me to another point- have we ever officially analyzed why we think Squirtle and Ivysaur are out? I, too, believe they are gone- yes. Yet, we discuss everything else in 'matter of fact, science points to this, analysis indicates that' faux-consort. Well, the analysis we have of Squirtle and Ivysaur is that Sakurai stated that he does not want to cut any characters, and so far, all Transformation characters have been shown. By any logical standard, they actually hold incredibly high chances of return.
All I can gather is that we all seem to consider them cut, because having that many gen one Pokemon as different slots (gasp, that forbidden word), seems aesthetically strange. This is funny- it is deemed to be such a given, and yet we base it on ideals that are such taboos in any other discussion, such as 'feelings,' or 'too many characters in a series.' Ultimately what feels right does in fact validate itself. Such as a lack of Dark Pit.

 

[Scamper52596]

Here is the thing, and I just thought of this...
They did not change Marth to add Lucina, they changed Lucina from being exactly akin to Marth when she was a costume. It was not in contrast at the time. (well, upon typing this, I find, it may have been, that just seems strange to me).
I cannot say for sure what made them decide to add her- as Sakurai's explanation is in fact not an explanation at all. Yet, it does seem clear it did not involve altering Marth in the first place FOR her. She was going to be an alternate costume, and then was not.
If Toon Zelda is in she had to have been a planned clone, unlike Lucina; she is just like Toon Link, with planned differences, namely height, which could have never allowed her to be considered an alternate costume (if Toon Link himself was not considered one... which perhaps he was? We aren't fully told he was not. Hmm, interesting point, Duke.). This could have meant altering Zelda for her, which I do not see indication of them having done (and is just too difficult to tell from such little evidence and the necessity of changes to Zelda given her loss of Sheik and inherent rebalance from such).

You're really looking for ways to refute my points, aren't you? Haha, that's alright. I appreciate the feedback.

We don't know if Lucina was ever even programmed to be an alternate costume. The quote from the interview says this, "Initially, I had considered including Lucina as one of Marth's alternate costumes." That tells me that Sakurai was deciding between making her a costume or a clone character before development of the roster likely began. In essence that would make her no different from being a planned clone, just like Toon Zelda would have to be.
Sorry, but I'm also not going to believe that they would add Lucina to the roster and not change Marth even slightly in order to make the two feel just a little different when playing them. I think the goal would be to make them feel similar, but not the same.

 

[pupNapoleon]

You're really looking for ways to refute my points, aren't you? Haha, that's alright. I appreciate the feedback.

We don't know if Lucina was ever even programmed to be an alternate costume. The quote from the interview says this, "Initially, I had considered including Lucina as one of Marth's alternate costumes." That tells me that Sakurai was deciding between making her a costume or a clone character before development of the roster likely began. In essence that would make her no different from being a planned clone, just like Toon Zelda would have to be.
Sorry, but I'm also not going to believe that they would add Lucina to the roster and not change Marth even slightly in order to make the two feel just a little different when playing them. I think the goal would be to make them feel similar, but not the same.

You've actually convinced me on a number of points, I just bring out anywhere I see a hole that needs to be patched for it to make sense to me. While I disagree with a good number of your points as well, and am not convinced in the slightest that she is going to be playable, it is not disconfirmed as a possibility, to me. I still believe she was planned to be an alt character based on the way the argument was presented to us by Sakurai, and also going forward my own assumptions as to why that whole thing even was stated to us in the first place, but you have quite well given me the information to entertain the point.

 

[Niala]

She was not that important to the anime, and ultimately what you just said is, a lot of people like her. I don't find that to be a very valid reason, because I guarantee that many people like her for playstyle, and then others just like her because she is cute. Everyone won't like any decision.
I don't like that Squirtle is likely cut. I'm sure many don't. He is more prominent in the anime, and in the games. If you don't want her to be cut, fine, but your entire reasoning is because she is well liked. In which case I say, she can be an alt character swap for whomever her move set is given to- because as much as anyone wants to argue it, there are a limited number of slots for each series, otherwise we could easily have 18 Pokemon.

This leads me to another point- have we ever officially analyzed why we think Squirtle and Ivysaur are out? I also believe they are gone- yes. Yet, we discuss everything else in 'matter of fact, science points to this, analysis indicates.' Well, the analysis we have of Squirtle and Ivysaur is that Sakurai said he doesn't want to cut any characters, and so far, all Transformation characters have been shown. By any logical standard, they actually hold incredibly high standards.
All I can gather is that we all seem to consider them cut because having that many gen one Pokemon as different slots (gasp, that forbidden word), seems aesthetically strange. This is funny- it is such a given, and yet we base it on ideals that are such taboos in any other discussion, such as 'feelings,' or 'too many characters in a series.'

I think the reason the majority of people assume Squirtle and Ivysaur are cut is because of the emphasis they placed on Charizard returning, as well as the transformation mechanic having been cut completely. There's been no mention of either of them since his unveiling, and while the same can be said for ZSS and Sheik, the Pokemon returning wasn't as essential. The space they filled can be filled by new Pokemon who are arguably more relevant now, rather than Squirtle and Ivysaur who haven't been around much recently.

Also, something to consider is that Pokemon has the highest rate of cut characters right now, being Pichu and Mewtwo, the other three being Dr. Mario, Roy, and Young Link. Even having those two characters cut, they received still more reps in Brawl than they had in Melee, while the other series in question either went even or lost total reps. It seems to be that Pokemon are more easily replaced, simply because of the vast selection.

That being said, there's no real reason they can't be returning. It would just mean we're likely to not see them until after the release.

 

[LeeYawshee]

She was not that important to the anime, and ultimately what you just said is, a lot of people like her. I don't find that to be a very valid reason, because I guarantee that many people like her for playstyle, and then others just like her because she is cute. Everyone won't like any decision.
I don't like that Squirtle is likely cut. I'm sure many don't. He is more prominent in the anime, and in the games. If you don't want her to be cut, fine, but your entire reasoning is because she is well liked. In which case I say, she can be an alt character swap for whomever her move set is given to- because as much as anyone wants to argue it, there are a limited number of slots for each series, otherwise we could easily have 18 Pokemon.

Jigglypuff is actually so popular in Japan that she is considered the mascot my some, is one of the original 12, can represent normal types and fairy types, has a very popular following with both casuals and competitive players (Wall of Pain, anyone?), had a decent role in the anime(won't say important because like you said, Squirtle is more prominent), and has had quite the effect on Pokemon. Giving a moveset to someone else is silly because you can do that to just about any character. This would not just disrespect the fans of Jigglypuff but it would also add a character that may or may not be liked. Jigglypuff is a safe choice because people recognize her and love her, but there are also people who dislike her. However, these people that dislike her have been around for a while, so their effect is not as bad as the new people that could come and hate the replacement character. This is why replacing characters is very dangerous and requires a lot of thought. I truly understand your distaste for Jigglypuff but the idea of removing her moveset just seems so wrong...

Despite your thoughts on Jigglypuff, I want to state that I agree with a lot of the points you have made on other threads so keep at that.

Jigglypuff Fun Facts:

• When children were asked to name female Pokemon (before they were given genders), Jigglypuff was the most mentioned, even moreso than Jinx.
• Jigglypuff has an incredible amount of merchandise, both Pokemon and Smash.
• Jigglypuff's evolution, Wigglytuff, had an incredibly important role in one of the Pokemon spin-off games.
  

 

[Jiggly]

Just a question, who would you want to take Jigglypuff's moveset???

 

[pupNapoleon]

I think the reason the majority of people assume Squirtle and Ivysaur are cut is because of the emphasis they placed on Charizard returning, as well as the transformation mechanic having been cut completely. There's been no mention of either of them since his unveiling, and while the same can be said for ZSS and Sheik, the Pokemon returning wasn't as essential. The space they filled can be filled by new Pokemon who are arguably more relevant now, rather than Squirtle and Ivysaur who haven't been around much recently.

Also, something to consider is that Pokemon has the highest rate of cut characters right now, being Pichu and Mewtwo, the other three being Dr. Mario, Roy, and Young Link. Even having those two characters cut, they received still more reps in Brawl than they had in Melee, while the other series in question either went even or lost total reps. It seems to be that Pokemon are more easily replaced, simply because of the vast selection.


That being said, there's no real reason they can't be returning. It would just mean we're likely to not see them until after the release.

We cannot really go on a pattern when it has only happened one time.
We were flat out told that we were given clones in Melee to pad out the roster- what is surprising about clones then being cut before Brawl? The only surprise cut we can really surmise from this is Mewtwo. I don't think we can use this as a pattern for who is likely to be cut this game.

As for having seen them or not since Charizard's reveal- I'm not sure why we would have seen them; if anything, not seeing them as an item, or Stage Hazard, seems to help. I would also not call someone like Sheik essential, not at all, particularly when we have the extremely prominent Impa.

 

[Masonomace]

At first I briefly thought this page was discussin about Falcon vs Jiggly. . .
I am so glad I read it all. And,
@ TeenGirlSquad
Yes, . . and No. I really want to leave it at that.

 

[LeeYawshee]

As for having seen them or not since Charizard's reveal- I'm not sure why we would have seen them; if anything, not seeing them as an item, or Stage Hazard, seems to help. I would also not call someone like Sheik essential, not at all, particularly when we have the extremely prominent Impa.

This. Sheik has really only appeared in two Zelda games, one which wasn't made by the normal Zelda team and Impa has been in both of the games that Sheik has been in plus more. Both are Sheikah characters and there's a looooong list.

Edit: I would like to note that this does not mean "REPLACE IMPA WITH SHEIK" by any means. I just believe that Impa is more prominent than Sheik.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

We're discussing Jigglypuff's importance again? Her importance doesn't really matter when she makes for the most unique Pokémon character in Smash really, and giving her moveset to someone else doesn't make any sense since she's the only one who does what she does (unless you can find someone else who can Rollout, Sing, Rest, and do all of her normal moves, be my guest), plus it'd just serve to piss off Jigglypuff fans, nothing good would come out of it really. Just because a few people have a grudge against her does not make it a good decision, in fact it'd be one of the most stupid decisions they could make, even more so than the idea of replacing Sheik with Impa.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Jigglypuff is actually so popular in Japan that she is considered the mascot my some, is one of the original 12, can represent normal types and fairy types, has a very popular following with both casuals and competitive players (Wall of Pain, anyone?), had a decent role in the anime(won't say important because like you said, Squirtle is more prominent), and has had quite the effect on Pokemon. Giving a moveset to someone else is silly because you can do that to just about any character. This would not just disrespect the fans of Jigglypuff but it would also add a character that may or may not be liked. Jigglypuff is a safe choice because people recognize her and love her, but there are also people who dislike her. However, these people that dislike her have been around for a while, so their effect is not as bad as the new people that could come and hate the replacement character. This is why replacing characters is very dangerous and requires a lot of thought. I truly understand your distaste for Jigglypuff but the idea of removing her moveset just seems so wrong...

Despite your thoughts on Jigglypuff, I want to state that I agree with a lot of the points you have made on other threads so keep at that.

Jigglypuff Fun Facts:

• When children were asked to name female Pokemon (before they were given genders), Jigglypuff was the most mentioned, even moreso than Jinx.
• Jigglypuff has an incredible amount of merchandise, both Pokemon and Smash.
• Jigglypuff's evolution, Wigglytuff, had an incredibly important role in one of the Pokemon spin-off games.

This is all good and well, but what makes this a reason Jigglypuff should not be cut where others should? All characters hold merits to stay if they are going to stay, they all have followings.
Most of your points in regard to her following outside of smash are outdated, so much so as to reference 'Before Pokemon had Genders.' I am aware Jigglypuff was popular in Japan, but it is rather difficult to quantify exactly how popular, particularly in present day. If you can find actual data, I will be more yielding to this point, but I still would hold true that the original starters will always be exceptionally prominent in Pokemon as well. As will Mewtwo. Regardless, her prominence in Japan in the slightest is essentially the single point as to why she is relevant today. What makes her different from someone like Captain Falcon is that Captain Falcon represents his series entirely on his own, and Jigglypuff, on the flip side, is in the way of the single handedly most competitive and difficult-to-properly-represent franchise.

I'm not against Jigglypuff- not at all. I'm against the notion that she is infallible and cannot be cut. I like the pink poof. But if there are characters that need to be cut, because we need to cut characters, she is on the list. If we are keeping all characters, no limit to size, etc- all for her. Yet the moment the axe comes down because of this idea that sometimes we cut some-- she is on the block; no matter how many times she may manage to roll off, she will always be on the block.

Just a question, who would you want to take Jigglypuff's moveset???

King/Boo (should Luigi's Mansion branch off enough to become it's own representation).
Again, it is in part because I love him. It is too difficult to remove desire from this type of equation. I just think Boo utilizes her established move set far better and canonically.

-Floating would be identical
-Kicks replaced with his tail
-Rollout replaced with a Charge/Pounce/Chase
-Rest replaced with a Boo (Scare/Laugh!)
-Sing replaced with an intangible moment where you are not hit by opponents.

 

[~Krystal~]

This is all good and well, but what makes this a reason Jigglypuff should not be cut where others should? All characters hold merits to stay if they are going to stay, they all have followings.
Most of your points in regard to her following outside of smash are outdated, so much so as to reference 'Before Pokemon had Genders.' I am aware Jigglypuff was popular in Japan, but it is rather difficult to quantify exactly how popular, particularly in present day. If you can find actual data, I will be more yielding to this point, but I still would hold true that the original starters will always be exceptionally prominent in Pokemon as well. As will Mewtwo. Regardless, her prominence in Japan in the slightest is essentially the single point as to why she is relevant today. What makes her different from someone like Captain Falcon is that Captain Falcon represents his series entirely on his own, and Jigglypuff, on the flip side, is in the way of the single handedly most competitive and difficult-to-properly-represent franchise.

I'm not against Jigglypuff- not at all. I'm against the notion that she is infallible and cannot be cut. I like the pink poof. But if there are characters that need to be cut, because we need to cut characters, she is on the list. If we are keeping all characters, no limit to size, etc- all for her. Yet the moment the axe comes down because of this idea that sometimes we cut some-- she is on the block; no matter how many times she may manage to roll off, she will always be on the block.



King/Boo (should Luigi's Mansion branch off enough to become it's own representation).
Again, it is in part because I love him. It is too difficult to remove desire from this type of equation. I just think Boo utilizes her established move set far better and canonically.

-Floating would be identical
-Kicks replaced with his tail
-Rollout replaced with a Charge/Pounce/Chase
-Rest replaced with a Boo (Scare/Laugh!)
-Sing replaced with an intangible moment where you are not hit by opponents.

During this intangible period, would you yourself be able to hit the opponent?

 

[LeeYawshee]

King/Boo (should Luigi's Mansion branch off enough to become it's own representation).
Again, it is in part because I love him. It is too difficult to remove desire from this type of equation. I just think Boo utilizes her established move set far better and canonically.

-Floating would be identical
-Kicks replaced with his tail
-Rollout replaced with a Charge/Pounce/Chase
-Rest replaced with a Boo (Scare/Laugh!)
-Sing replaced with an intangible moment where you are not hit by opponents.

As of now, I have no counter argument for your other post. It's late and I will try later if I can...

Floating and kicks are fine. But replacing the other moves is not really that great. King Boo also needs to use his tongue, which is a constant. Boos are fine but they have about as much chance as being playable as Goombas/Koopas so that's wistful thinking.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

We're discussing Jigglypuff's importance again? Her importance doesn't really matter when she makes for the most unique Pokémon character in Smash really, and giving her moveset to someone else doesn't make any sense since she's the only one who does what she does (unless you can find someone else who can Rollout, Sing, Rest, and do all of her normal moves, be my guest), plus it'd just serve to piss off Jigglypuff fans, nothing good would come out of it really. Just because a few people have a grudge against her does not make it a good decision, in fact it'd be one of the most stupid decisions they could make, even more so than the idea of replacing Sheik with Impa.

Kirby could perform all of Jigglypuff's normal moves, and as for Rollout, Sing, and Rest.

Spoiler

 

[pupNapoleon]

We're discussing Jigglypuff's importance again? Her importance doesn't really matter when she makes for the most unique Pokémon character in Smash really, and giving her moveset to someone else doesn't make any sense since she's the only one who does what she does (unless you can find someone else who can Rollout, Sing, Rest, and do all of her normal moves, be my guest), plus it'd just serve to piss off Jigglypuff fans, nothing good would come out of it really. Just because a few people have a grudge against her does not make it a good decision, in fact it'd be one of the most stupid decisions they could make, even more so than the idea of replacing Sheik with Impa.

Eh, your refusal to acknowledge a point really drives a lot of the things I've said true, particularly the crass tone.
It has very little to do with a 'grudge against Jigglypuff,' but rather, the fact that we 'Cannot have 100 Pokemon Representatives,' in the game, and that if she is in as a Smash character, not a Pokemon character at this point, her move set can be relegated else where.
You an disagree and that's just dandy, but the merit of calling it 'stupid' does not inherently make it so.

During this intangible period, would you yourself be able to hit the opponent?

If they wanted to make it more likely Jigglypuff is now, no- it would probably be Boo hiding (as he does when you turn around and see him) and turning incorporeal.
See? It really just makes itself. It takes one second to think about. It works better for Boo than Jigglypuff. Scaring an opponent is actually logical- unlike rest...

As of now, I have no counter argument for your other post. It's late and I will try later if I can...

Floating and kicks are fine. But replacing the other moves is not really that great. King Boo also needs to use his tongue, which is a constant. Boos are fine but they have about as much chance as being playable as Goombas/Koopas so that's wistful thinking.

We have seen Boo as a racer in Mario Kart and as a participant in Mario Party, as well as a character in sports games such as Mario Tennis- it has been established at this point that he is enough of a single-entity character of a race, such as Yoshi, Toad, etc...
I'll try to find videos of the charging, since it is something Boo's always do to attack. And scaring is pretty impeccable to the effect Rest causes. If you don't think they are that great you are welcome to your opinion, but I personally think they make a hell of a lot more sense than what Jigglypuff does, and also represent Boo better than the moves currently showcase Jiggs.

 

[JamesDNaux]

So much Jigglypuff.


Can we talk about Rayman again?

 

[MasterOfKnees]

This is all good and well, but what makes this a reason Jigglypuff should not be cut where others should? All characters hold merits to stay if they are going to stay, they all have followings.
Most of your points in regard to her following outside of smash are outdated, so much so as to reference 'Before Pokemon had Genders.' I am aware Jigglypuff was popular in Japan, but it is rather difficult to quantify exactly how popular, particularly in present day. If you can find actual data, I will be more yielding to this point, but I still would hold true that the original starters will always be exceptionally prominent in Pokemon as well. As will Mewtwo. Regardless, her prominence in Japan in the slightest is essentially the single point as to why she is relevant today. What makes her different from someone like Captain Falcon is that Captain Falcon represents his series entirely on his own, and Jigglypuff, on the flip side, is in the way of the single handedly most competitive and difficult-to-properly-represent franchise.

I'm not against Jigglypuff- not at all. I'm against the notion that she is infallible and cannot be cut. I like the pink poof. But if there are characters that need to be cut, because we need to cut characters, she is on the list. If we are keeping all characters, no limit to size, etc- all for her. Yet the moment the axe comes down because of this idea that sometimes we cut some-- she is on the block; no matter how many times she may manage to roll off, she will always be on the block.



King/Boo (should Luigi's Mansion branch off enough to become it's own representation).
Again, it is in part because I love him. It is too difficult to remove desire from this type of equation. I just think Boo utilizes her established move set far better and canonically.

-Floating would be identical
-Kicks replaced with his tail
-Rollout replaced with a Charge/Pounce/Chase
-Rest replaced with a Boo (Scare/Laugh!)
-Sing replaced with an intangible moment where you are not hit by opponents.

You're saying that she's on the block for being cut, but then you bring up a replacement for her. Giving her moveset to someone else defeats the entire point of cutting her to begin with. Cuts happen because there isn't time to put in certain characters, and the ones who are cut were judged to not be as important to the game as others. By cutting Jigglypuff and replacing her with King Boo you not only don't cut down on the amount of work it takes, it'd actually take much more work than simply copy pasting Jigglypuff from Brawl's engine. Jigglypuff's saving grace has always been that she's so devilish simple to develop because of her proportions, any replacement would also defeat that point totally. Jigglypuff's moveset would only ever be given to someone else if Sakurai specifically really don't want her in the game anymore, and if he feels like that (which he obviously doesn't) then he'd probably rather just cut her completely. There's a reason no moveset has been given to an entirely different character yet, it's too much of a bother and really only serves to piss off Smash fans.

I also want to point out that cuts have thus far only happened to characters whos movesets were unpopular. Dr. Mario, Roy, Pichu and Young Link were not as popular clones as say Falco and Ganondorf, thus they were cut. Mewtwo was by far and wide the most unpopular character outside of the four cut clones, maybe even more unpopular than Dr. Mario, thus he was axed too. Importance or series representation isn't a reason to cut anyone, we know gameplay is what determines who gets in as newcomers, so it's quite obvious gameplay will also determine who gets the axe, and in that vein there are a good number of Brawl characters who'd get the axe before Jiggs, even unique ones like R.O.B.

Eh, your refusal to acknowledge a point really drives a lot of the things I've said true, particularly the crass tone.
It has very little to do with a 'grudge against Jigglypuff,' but rather, the fact that we 'Cannot have 100 Pokemon Representatives,' in the game, and that if she is in as a Smash character, not a Pokemon character at this point, her move set can be relegated else where.
You an disagree and that's just dandy, but the merit of calling it 'stupid' does not inherently make it so.

Jigglypuff holds her own as a Pokémon rep in Smash though. We can include Mewtwo on top of her and we're fine, anyone past that will only turn into another Jigglypuff in the future, even someone like Sceptile. I call it stupid because from a development standpoint it makes no sense.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

It doesn't answer anything.
As I said, coloration would be the only thing I'd be able to discern from Mario/Luigi, Fox/Wolf, and Peach/Rosalina (provided Luma's not with her) in the exact same situation.

If you want a list of differences between them in design (as there are plenty outside of just color that I've accidentally discovered) and in a hypothetical scenario where both are separate characters, I can do that.
Just no ridiculous "what-if" scenarios like the unicorn thing.

Wasn't part of the reason why Wolf didn't make it into Melee was because he would look too similar to Fox?

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Kirby could perform all of Jigglypuff's normal moves, and as for Rollout, Sing, and Rest.

Spoiler

Kirby already has a moveset though, one that fits his easy-to-pick-up playstyle quite a bit better.

Wasn't part of the reason why Wolf didn't make it into Melee was because he would look too similar to Fox?

As a full-fledged clone with the Gamecube's limitations yes.