Character Discussion Thread

[Pizzanigs]

How about that Vaati?

Fair. Let's talk about Vaati's role as a sticker.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Fair. Let's talk about Vaati's role as a sticker.

We should talk about how his role in Hyrule Warriors helps him... Oh wait

 

[Gold_Jacobson]

Fair. Let's talk about Vaati's role as a sticker.

Now now. I'm sure if they just used his hyrule warriors moveset, he'll be in...

 

[ZeldaMaster]

Fair. Let's talk about Vaati's role as a sticker.

Dat burn........

 

[Morbi]

I am so ****ing tired of Dark Pit discussion. I personally think Dark Pit is an idiotic idea, and I hate the fact that we can't go one page without constant bickering about him. Can we please discuss a different character?

I did not even bring Dark Pit up this time. I am proud of everyone's enthusiasm regarding him though.

Yes, exactly right. And just because Sakurai CAN make any character unique doesn't mean he WILL, as evidenced by Toon Link. As far as I'm concerned, the situations with Toon Link and Dark Pit are identical. Except at least Toon Link has some notable visual difference from regular Link. Dark Pit is just... Pit with black hair and wings.

And purple wing effects.

If Dark Pit is his own character, he'd easily be original by using some of the weapon styles from KI that Pit doesn't cover. Such as Sniper Rifles and claws. It is interesting that despite how laser and shooty Kid Icarus Uprising is, Pit doesn't have that aspect to him in Smash Brawl or Sm4sh.

Sakurai might want to redeem this by adding in Dark Pit, so that he wouldn't have to change the original Pit (Which many are use to) too much.

Interesting theory, I approve.

 

[Zynux]

Did you play Uprising? Firstly, Silver Bow isn't 'inferior'. It's shots grow weaker with distance but start stronger. Palutena's Bow is known for having weak standing shots but strong dash shots. They both have pros + cons and it's not like one is decidedly inferior like you claim.

Secondly, he uses four other weapons in the 'main' chapter with him as a boss, and can use any weapon Pit can use when he's a playable character. All I believe 108 of them. If Sakurai really wants to make Dark Pit unique, it certainly ain't impossible.

I think you ignored the fact that Pittoo can use a Dark Pit Staff, Pandora Claws, Silver Bow, EZ Cannon, Violet Palm, Ogre Club, First Blade, Darkness Bow, End-All Arm, Viridi Palm, Power of Flight, Eye Orbitars, and all the potential other weapons the game has over Dixie, who only has her flying ponytail. I find it funny for you to say she has more potential than Dark Pit.

I know that this is reaching into "muh patterns" category, and I am fully aware that every character has potential to be "unique", but do you honestly believe that the character that arguably has the highest probability of being a clone in Smash, including such factors as his original design, stature, build, abilities, gameplay, etc. which are all almost identical to Pit (canonically), will harbor such vast deviations?

This is not rhetoric, I am truly asking if you believe this. It is certainly probable he could be vastly different to Pit, however do you believe that such a outcome is even likely to take place? Do you believe he will even harbor a varying playstyle? That seems awfully optimistic. Listing just random items and weapons he could potentially use means little when, during development, the sensible way to develop Dark Pit is to build him off of another character with the same build, model, stature, and abilities as him: Pit.

At least canonically Dixie harbored different mechanics and had distinguished abilities compared to DK, Diddy, and Kiddy, in comparison to the almost identical nature of Pit and Dark Pit. If I remember correctly, Dark Pit having Pandora's infinitive flight was his only real definitive canonical difference.

How about that Vaati?

I have a better idea; how about we talk about how every potential Zelda choice is lame, unnecessary, and unwarranted? And that the Zelda franchise already has 5 characters (assuming Ganondorf returns) and doesn't need to oversaturated by B-listers? And that fixing Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf should be "only" newcomers Zelda needs?

[/Harsh, arbitrary, extremely biased reasoning]

In all seriousness, while I am extremely against a Zelda newcomer overall, I don't think I would be terribly upset if Pig Ganon/Ghirahim/Vaati make it in. Each could have some interesting playstyles. Also, I must admit that I do find a Zelda newcomer to be a plausible.

 

[Morbi]

I know that this is reaching into "muh patterns" category, and I am fully aware that every character has potential to be "unique", but do you honestly believe that the character that arguably has the highest probability of being a clone in Smash, including such factors as his original design, stature, build, abilities, gameplay, etc. which are all almost identical to Pit (canonically), will harbor such vast deviations?

This is not rhetoric, I am truly asking if you believe this. It is certainly probable he could be vastly different to Pit, however do you believe that such a outcome is even likely to take place? Do you believe he will even harbor a varying playstyle? That seems awfully optimistic. Listing just random items and weapons he could potentially use means little when, during development, the sensible way to develop Dark Pit is to build him off of another character with the same build, model, stature, and abilities as him: Pit.

At least canonically Dixie harbored different mechanics and had distinguished abilities compared to DK, Diddy, and Kiddy, in comparison to the almost identical nature of Pit and Dark Pit. If I remember correctly, Dark Pit having Pandora's infinitive flight was his only real definitive canonical difference.


I have a better idea; how about we talk about how every potential Zelda choice is lame, unnecessary, and unwarranted? And that the Zelda franchise already has 5 characters (assuming Ganondorf returns) and doesn't need to oversaturated by B-listers? And that fixing Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf should be "only" newcomers Zelda needs?

[/Harsh, arbitrary, extremely biased reasoning]

In all seriousness, while I am extremely against a Zelda newcomer overall, I don't think I would be terribly upset if Pig Ganon/Ghirahim/Vaati make it in. Each could have some interesting playstyles. Also, I must admit that I do find a Zelda newcomer to be a plausible.

I am not necessarily an advocate of Dark Pit as a vastly different character; honestly, I want to see him as a clone. However, I am sure that they are citing the differences between the two in order to establish that there is a lot of untapped move-set potential of Pit himself, and therefore, a clone of Pit is fairly justified. There might be subtle variations; for instance, instead of the "arm" for a side-special, Dark Pit might use "Pandora's claws" instead. Similar to Lucas and Ness' specials (PK Freeze vs. PK Flash). I do; however, agree with his flight being the of the only canonical differences (along with the Dark Pit staff). I usually cite his infinite flight as a definitive difference that would be easy to translate into a new recovery special. As for the Silver Bow, that would just allude to property variations on his normals, perhaps. I doubt anyone believes that Dark Pit will be included as a completely unique character. Most people (probably) expect that he is predominately clone, or even a semi-clone. Some might reach and assert that he would be a pseudo-clone in the same vein as Wolf. It is impossible to determine the route that Sakurai is comfortable with (this includes the possibility that Dark Pit might not even be a character).

 

[pupNapoleon]

@TumblrFamous Greninja's popularity had nothing to do with its inclusion, that's just a coincidence. Greninja was planned for the game in the beginning, before X/Y, and Sakurai simply applied Greninja to the concept template given to him by Game Freak.

Well, yeah; Greninja was chosen because he 'looked cool' and because HE completed the 'type triangle' which was in place when Sakurai had already added Sceptile

 

[Headcrab Jackalope]

Guise I made a roster because Dark Pit discussion is boring:

54 characters. 51 slots(52 if you count random). I separated the Mii Fighters because it looked better aesthetically for my roster, but I believe they'll be one slot. I feel it's a reasonable size.

Newcomer Explanations:
Ridley: Self-explanatory. I think he's playable rather than a boss.
K. Rool: I see him as being extremely likely, due to his popularity and DK needing a third character.
Bandanna Dee: Dark horse candidate. I can see and want him playable.
Plasm Wraith: Basically my personal/signature character that's never leaving my roster.
Shulk: Gematsu is (almost) god.
Chorus Kids: Gematsu is (almost) god.

Cuts are Squirtle, Ivysaur, Lucas, and Snake. The first three are DLC. That Pichu icon represents a Melee veteran DLC thing. Inkling and Captain Toad are newcomer DLC that I can see happening. Most of the DLC stuff is just wishful thinking on my part.

I'm debating on whether or not to add Duck Hunt Dog or Muddy Mole as a retro character.

Thoughts?

 

[CodeBlue_]

Edit: I think I need to learn how to take a joke

 

[Opossum]

Guise I made a roster because Dark Pit discussion is boring:
View attachment 20794
54 characters. 51 slots(52 if you count random). I separated the Mii Fighters because it looked better aesthetically for my roster, but I believe they'll be one slot. I feel it's a reasonable size.

Newcomer Explanations:
Ridley: Self-explanatory. I think he's playable rather than a boss.
K. Rool: I see him as being extremely likely, due to his popularity and DK needing a third character.
Bandanna Dee: Dark horse candidate. I can see and want him playable.
Plasm Wraith: Basically my personal/signature character that's never leaving my roster.
Shulk: Gematsu is (almost) god.
Chorus Kids: Gematsu is (almost) god.

Cuts are Squirtle, Ivysaur, Lucas, and Snake. The first three are DLC. That Pichu icon represents a Melee veteran DLC thing. Inkling and Captain Toad are newcomer DLC that I can see happening. Most of the DLC stuff is just wishful thinking on my part.

I'm debating on whether or not to add Duck Hunt Dog or Muddy Mole as a retro character.

Thoughts?

Go with Muddy.

 

[Morbi]

@ pupNapoleon please keep this on the Sceptile thread. This theory is nothing more than a theory and is a true as the theory of evolution.

If Dark Pit discussion is allowed to thrive in this environment, Sceptile discussion should not be suppressed. Theories are all we have to discern the plausible characters from the not-so-feasible characters.

Guise I made a roster because Dark Pit discussion is boring:
View attachment 20794
54 characters. 51 slots(52 if you count random). I separated the Mii Fighters because it looked better aesthetically for my roster, but I believe they'll be one slot. I feel it's a reasonable size.

Newcomer Explanations:
Ridley: Self-explanatory. I think he's playable rather than a boss.
K. Rool: I see him as being extremely likely, due to his popularity and DK needing a third character.
Bandanna Dee: Dark horse candidate. I can see and want him playable.
Plasm Wraith: Basically my personal/signature character that's never leaving my roster.
Shulk: Gematsu is (almost) god.
Chorus Kids: Gematsu is (almost) god.

Cuts are Squirtle, Ivysaur, Lucas, and Snake. The first three are DLC. That Pichu icon represents a Melee veteran DLC thing. Inkling and Captain Toad are newcomer DLC that I can see happening. Most of the DLC stuff is just wishful thinking on my part.

I'm debating on whether or not to add Duck Hunt Dog or Muddy Mole as a retro character.

Thoughts?

Needs more Dark Pit (Duck Hunt Dog).

 

[pupNapoleon]

@ pupNapoleon please keep this on the Sceptile thread. This theory is nothing more than a theory and is a true as the theory of evolution.

Hmm.. you've gotta be kidding with that right?

This entire thread is THEORIES based on evidence. Shall I refer you to my monster post on Sceptile? I shall post it. As my buddy @ Morbi once said, along the lines of: well, since you happen to mention it, I'd be glad to discuss it!

 

[Headcrab Jackalope]

Go with Muddy.

Muddy Mole 1
Duck Hunt Dog 0

Needs more Dark Pit (Duck Hunt Dog).

It's okay Morbid, Dark Pit is hiding in Pit's slot as an alt!

That's
Muddy Mole 1
Duck Hunt Dog 1

 

[CodeBlue_]

I apologize for that statement. I am heavily biased against Sceptile and disagree with your argument with a passion. However, you are entitled to state your opinion on his chances based on it.

 

[Morbi]

I apologize for that statement. I am heavily biased against Sceptile and disagree with your argument with a passion. However, you are entitled to state your opinion on his chances based on it.

Apparently, according to @KenithTheGatherer Sceptile is about as likely as Dark Pit. So, I suppose that means that he is shoe-in.

Muddy Mole 1
Duck Hunt Dog 0

It's okay Morbid, Dark Pit is hiding in Pit's slot as an alt!

That's
Muddy Mole 1
Duck Hunt Dog 1

This is before he "crashes the party," I understand. Soon...

Hmm.. you've gotta be kidding with that right?

This entire thread is THEORIES based on evidence. Shall I refer you to my monster post on Sceptile? I shall post it. As my buddy @ Morbi once said, along the lines of: well, since you happen to mention it, I'd be glad to discuss it!

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on Sceptile.

 

[Rockaphin]

All I remember is that I gave you a summary about Wolf and Faco's roles in their games since you asked about which of the two is more important in their games or something like that.

Would you rather have the main protagonist (who is literally a flat Mario) in a niche series than the secondary antagonist of the franchise and main villain of New Super Mario Bros, the best selling main Mario sub-series at this point?

Yeah.

Took some time, but I believe I found where the debate began.

 

[~Krystal~]

Hmm.. you've gotta be kidding with that right?

This entire thread is THEORIES based on evidence. Shall I refer you to my monster post on Sceptile? I shall post it. As my buddy @ Morbi once said, along the lines of: well, since you happen to mention it, I'd be glad to discuss it!

I am doubtful of Sceptile's inclusion. I'm going to need to see that monstrous essay in order to be convinced.

 

[FallofBrawl]

As much as I would love to see Sceptile, I think he's basically the Waluigi of Pokemon. The only reason he would be put in there is for the sake of "completeness"
We don't fully know where Sakurai stopped in terms of "looking towards the future", so far the farthest he's gone is with Greninja and X/Y thingamajigs (correct me if I'm wrong here), he could or could not have known about Pokemon 3rd Gen remakes and the relevancy of 3rd gen Pokemon :/
Plus most of the Sceptile support was never in full motion until Greninja was revealed, and Sakurai already has figured his roster a while ago, which just may hamper his chances

 

[CodeBlue_]

Guise I made a roster because Dark Pit discussion is boring:
View attachment 20794
54 characters. 51 slots(52 if you count random). I separated the Mii Fighters because it looked better aesthetically for my roster, but I believe they'll be one slot. I feel it's a reasonable size.

Newcomer Explanations:
Ridley: Self-explanatory. I think he's playable rather than a boss.
K. Rool: I see him as being extremely likely, due to his popularity and DK needing a third character.
Bandanna Dee: Dark horse candidate. I can see and want him playable.
Plasm Wraith: Basically my personal/signature character that's never leaving my roster.
Shulk: Gematsu is (almost) god.
Chorus Kids: Gematsu is (almost) god.

Cuts are Squirtle, Ivysaur, Lucas, and Snake. The first three are DLC. That Pichu icon represents a Melee veteran DLC thing. Inkling and Captain Toad are newcomer DLC that I can see happening. Most of the DLC stuff is just wishful thinking on my part.

I'm debating on whether or not to add Duck Hunt Dog or Muddy Mole as a retro character.

Thoughts?

I'm actually really doubting the Chorus Kids as reps after the Gematsu Leak was pratically debunked. The original game (for the DS) did outsell the entirety of Kirby's Return to Dream Land with only the copies sold in Japan and I do expect a character from the series. However, the effort needed to implement three characters into one hurtbox and all of the animations needed for that seem extremely tedious for a character that is very obscure in the West. Marshall by himself or Karate Joe/Rhythm Girl seem like a more practical choice for Rhythmn Heaven rep. There is also Young Cricket, (although he is technically from the WarioWare franchise) who has a fairly decent chance if he has some notability in the Rhythm Heaven series (I don't know his role in the game, could someone clarify it?).

 

[pupNapoleon]

I'm glad you brought it up @ CodeBlue_ (and of course, you are entitled to your opinion as well)

Sceptile discussion, from all those in here angry that he actually has a greater probability, and a lot more going to him than simply completing the holy type trinity.

REASONS POKEMON DESERVES THE HIGHEST NUMBER OF REPRESENTATIVES...

Spoiler

Here is a list of other things Pokemon has going for it:
-Easy translation into smash fighters
-Huge marketing capabilities (to draw in more fans, as well as by Game Freak, seen to get Smash fans into Pokemon)
-Vast Empire (Manga, TV, Movies, Trading Cards, Figures, Apps, Clothing, Merchandise beyond compare)
-800+ extremely diverse characters
-20 Years of history
-Worldwide Popularity
-Many types of characters it could represent beyond the basic Pokemon (trainers, rangers, breeders, coordinators, etc)
-Much in the main games to represent (abilities, items, weather and battlefield, double/triple/horde batles, typing, gender, contests, sports competitions, happiness, personality, trading, evolution-all different ways- etc)
-Multitude of types of games to choose from (Main RPG, Ranger, Mystery Dungeon, Snap, Pinball, Trozei, Puzzle League, Coliseum, ... the list is endless)

Sales are not the only factor. Popularity, Size, History, Impact, Relevance, Recency, Diversity, Adaptability, Growth.
Pokemon is unlike ANY other video game franchise, because it is far more than a video game franchise- it is studied on global economic trends as a phenomenon which is still not fully understood on a consumer trend and has not been replicated to this day.

How many reps does it deserve? Well, a good number. It is certainly on a scale to be evaluated separately from all other franchises as it is in a category all its own. A Pokemon added will appeal to a huge audience, regardless of which it is- an audience likely bigger than another given character added. I would not be surprised if it got more than six representatives, not surprised in the slightest, and it would be more than warranted, it would be earned.

...BUT....WHAT ABOUT THAT ITALIAN PLUMBER?

Spoiler

I feel like this is a good reasoning as to why Pokémon could warrant more playable characters than Mario. Yes, Mario is more popular and its video games sells better, but Pokémon is a different kind of phenomenon. On top of video games Pokémon also has a successful Anime, TCG and Manga running, it definitely sells more merchandise than almost anything else, while Mario is bigger than it in the video game world I feel as a whole Pokémon probably makes more money in the end. Now I don't think it's all about money of course, but it means Pokémon has a different kind of impact, it's practically everywhere.

On the Smash front there are also still a limited number of Mario characters that are exciting to include in this game, Game Freak always makes sure to front multiple Pokémon in merchandising at once and I dare say almost every Pokémon can translate well into a Smash fighter, excluding itsy bitsy ones like Weedle and Corphish, so no matter who the spotlight is shining on they can always make that into a Smash fighter. Heck, Pichu got in, I think that says a ton.

I pretty much just restated what you said, but it's a great post.

Mario is limited, as you stated. Not to mention, all of its characters have broken off to become separate things.
To be more clear, though, the Marioverse will always have more representatives, and I think that is why it is okay.
Mario, Yoshi, DK, Wario- they are all part of the Marioverse. I think arguing subfranchise or not gets tedious, because there are a plethora of different series' within Marios name, all given the mainstay IPs because Nintendo is accustomed to doing this for Marketing reasons.
Luigi's Mansion and Captain Toad should warrant those characters as separate characters to me, yet they will unlikely be seen as such. They are all in Mario's family, as is DK, as is Wario, as is Waluigi who is now it seems a Warioware character since it makes sense aethetically to Sakurai (and is prepping us for his inclusion in the next Smash game as a Wario character).

In short- Pokemon will not be overslotted to Mario, because Mario is so big it gets to be more than one franchise.

PRECEDENT SAYS WE WILL GET ANOTHER NEW POKEMON!

Spoiler

I have already posted in length about just how prominent Pokemon is and why it is absurd to think it should not get high levels of representation, second to nothing but Mario, and only Mario when you consider the entire Mario universe.

I believe I will begin with Pokemon's character representation, and the general likelihood that, whether you are inclined to believe it or not, precedence dictates we are going to have at least one additional Pokemon Newcomer.
By fact alone, we had two newcomers in SSB64, two more in SSBM, and then FOUR MORE in SSBB. I will not go as far as to say the representation going from 2, 4, 6, means we are likely to get 8, but the fact that we have never gotten just a single new Pokemon representative for this series would be strange after getting four in the previous game, with two being likely cuts. The fact that we have had two generations leads me to believe we will have at least two newcomers, and the size of this franchise as a whole indicates it is worthy of a vast amount of representation, if for no other reason than to simply appease Game Freak and the Millions of fans it alone brings Smash.

It could be argued the newcomer would come from Gen 5, but I would point out that it was in Brawl that we finally got the main character from the first Generation, Pokemon Trainer, who added in three first generation Pokemon.

Now, if you want to debate who that second newcomer would be, absolutely, that is the fun! I'm here to point out some of what Sceptile has going for him as the front runner of those other plausible options.

WHAT DOES SCEPTILE HAVE GOING FOR HIM?

Spoiler

Many people seem to keep coming to the conclusion that he only completes the grass-fire-water type trinity... and then also belittling the vast role said trinity plays in Pokemon and the Pokemon games.
* To quickly back track, As for this ...this type trinity is something that Sakurai has brought into play in the first place. It is impossible to assert that Pokemon Trainer was a one shot idea and fans are the only ones who think it is important.
**The heavily advertised mechanics of rock-paper-scissor have been used to introduce players to the mechanics of battling in pokemon since generation one, and in short represent the entire battle mechanics of the universe to which the games are from. This triangle, also used in marketing, always emphasizes three types and three starters. When a new generation is out, one of the ways Game Freak displays the new generation is by showcasing who the new starters will be; without fail it is one of the first things we learn. The types do not only represent the balance in fighting,but also the advertising of the franchise itself.

Well first of all, we talk with the Pokemon company. What’s the hot Pokemon? What Pokemon are in the movies right now? And really do a lot of research on that front.

For example, X and Y are coming out – of course, we haven’t done any market research because they’re not out yet, but we look at the animated series or movies and anything like that and again, find out which ones are going to be central to any of conversations in Pokemon going forward.

Sceptile is the Pokemon Ash has, FYI. He also has Charizard and Froakie (who will evolve into Greninja). Sceptile has been given a lot of character in the show, with hardships over learning moves, isolating, and attraction to other pokemon.

Grovyle, of the Sceptile evolution line, was also a prominently featured in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, one of the main spinoffs of Pokemon's handheld games which is not a part of the RPG.

But it’s not just that – going back to just what we talked about, what’s unique about them? Where do they fit in with the rest of everything else? What do they have? It’s a combination of those things.

We have recently seen Sakurai talk about the first character who can heal while hurting someone else, Robin, using the move Nosferatu, implying this is a technique someone else may use.
As a grass type Pokemon, and taking over a common trope in RPG's, Sceptile could easily take on the role of a healer, and heal himself while damaging others.

Given that he is a type of Dinosaur/Lizard, it would be evident that his moveset involve wall climbing, or otherwise unique ways of holding onto ledges. He could be the first character in Sm4sh to use grass based attacks, which are common in RPGs but have yet to make much appearance in Smash, or he could be a grappling character. He has plenty of signature moves, most iconic- his leaf blades.
Honestly, for originality, he is lacking nothing, and is one of the easiest characters to have twelve different original move sets which he easily inspires, with an easy array of Seeds, Powders, Vines, Leafs, and Solar attacks which make him too variant to mess with. (We have already seen Robin with Nosferatu (a healing move), and both Wii Fit Trainer and Palutena with stat altering moves. A few Pokeball Pokemon, Xerneas and Victini, have been shown to alter stats as well. )

In short, adding Sceptile does not simply add one Pokemon, it allows the entire franchise to be represented in a multitude of other ways- it allows each Pokemon to represent more than just itself, and how popular each given one may be, but allows the whole to stand for something.
Sakurai has expressed devout interest in trying to remain loyal to representing the feel of characters correctly, as well as the feel of a franchise- to do this with Pokemon, he cannot simply have a few monsters of the greater whole that just exist as a few selected of over 700 +.
Adding Sceptile in does not just complete the type trinity, it pays tribute to multiple generations, acknowledges the advertising of the franchise, it gives homage to other games in the series' besides the main RPG, and it rounds out the representation of the Pokemon contestants to actually stand for something other than individual slots in themselves.

Speculation:

Spoiler

As it stands right now, Greninja was chosen because he... looked cool and could potentially be popular? I find that highly suspect to any analysis someone in the crowd could put out. If Sakurai were not limiting himself to starting roster Pokemon, why would he have chosen Greninja? He has gone on record to state that he liked the Ninja aspect, and we already have many of those characteristics in Sheik- if he wanted just a plain cool looking Pokemon that was popular with the fans, he had a plethora of other options he could have chosen from, unless he was going for something a bit deeper than just representing Greninja alone, and being nudged heavily to present him by Game Freak, of course. If Greninja can be added solely on the basis that he 'looks cool and might be popular,' this suggests already Sceptile has much more to offer. In fact, I would say Greninja may likely have been the one added to complete the type trio, and Sceptile just happens to be the one who is staying hidden.

Additionally, let us not kid ourselves to believe the Gen 3 remakes were not already nearly complete a long time ago. I'd personally be shocked if Nintendo representatives were not fighting to get information to Sakurai in hopes to sway him to add their characters into Smash bros (as we have seen, third parties do it, so why would Nintendo first parties not give him as much info as possible, it is the best advertising they could get). Yet I digress! If you want proof as to how clear it was the remakes have been planned for a long time, please ask and I will cite more information from the Sceptile thread. In short, just google it, they've been planned for a long time. Even if Sakurai is not given information on Nintendo information as a whole, he certainly can find out anything he wants for Pokemon's GAMING plan.

I would argue Blaziken having his Mega Evolution last year just sets up for the fact that Sceptile and Marshy are now the posterboys of these remakes with there megas, and that Blaziken's mega further dictates how aware they were of these remakes long ago.

Perhaps in time I will make this bullet point. It is a lot to go through.

 

[NeonBurrito]

-Sceptile discussion snip-

I'm curious, I have seen Sceptile requested before, but I have one more question for you. What qualities does Sceptile have, that Mewtwo and Jigglypuff do not? The only thing I got out of your points was that Sceptile would complete the grass-water-fire triangle, and that it would represent Generation 3, leaving Generation 5 to be the only generation not repped in Smash. Personally, I don't think the grass-water-fire triangle is a very valid point, as the type triangle was only in Brawl due to the Pokemon trainer. Due to the fact that he's not present, I am not sure that the grass-water-fire triangle is a relevant argument. I just really can't think of why Sceptile should be in compared to the popularity of Mewtwo and the uniqueness of Jigglypuff.

 

[CodeBlue_]

I don't really doubt Sceptile's potential as a character or the number of Pokémon reps.

I'm worried about his:

-Popularity in Japan as well as his popularity overall. Pokémon is a extremely competitive franchise when it comes to this.

-Influence of the Hoenn remakes on the roster (were they in development by the time Sakurai finalized the roster?)

-Overall competition with Blaziken. Torchic was the only Gen III starter to get an appearance as a Pokéball in Brawl and GameFreak has promoted Blaziken over the other two with his own Anime appearance, as a gift Pokémon in X and Y, and his Mega Evolution given to him.

-Implementation. You guys will get a rude awakening if Sakurai decides to bring back Type Effectiveness from Brawl. This was an important part of the gimmick in Brawl and tends to be a huge portion of your trio theory. Sceptile will get destroyed by characters like Mario, Ness and Charizard if this returns.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I'm curious, I have seen Sceptile requested before, but I have one more question for you. What qualities does Sceptile have, that Mewtwo and Jigglypuff do not? The only thing I got out of your points was that Sceptile would complete the grass-water-fire triangle, and that it would represent Generation 3, leaving Generation 5 to be the only generation not repped in Smash. Personally, I don't think the grass-water-fire triangle is a very valid point, as the type triangle was only in Brawl due to the Pokemon trainer. Due to the fact that he's not present, I am not sure that the grass-water-fire triangle is a relevant argument. I just really can't think of why Sceptile should be in compared to the popularity of Mewtwo and the uniqueness of Jigglypuff.

Jigglypuff is not inherently unique; she is just a fighting balloon. I stand to assert other characters could take over her move set and we can retire the character; my example of this is King Boo. He floats similarly, can use his tail for the foot attacks, can charge and ambush for a Rollout replacement, can SCARE as his Rest replacement, and can go intangible instead of using rest.
This is just one example. The point is- Jigglypuff is, as any character, unique because she was made unique. As a base character, Sceptile has far more qualities which allow him to transcend this.

As far as the triad of elements, it is exceptionally crucial to Pokemon. Not just with Pokemon Trainer, but with MARKETING. Game Freak is essentially who pushes the characters they want in the game? The trinity is what they push for new generations.
Not to mention, it represents the Battling Mechanic for Pokemon as a whole. Between battle mechanics, and this big one (the biggest point of all in his favor, Marketing), Sceptile is actually THE prime candidate. Mewtwo and Jigglypuff do not help Game freak out. Even Greninja doesn't at this point. Sceptile's inclusion raises further awareness of ORAS.

The other huge thing for Sceptile is that- he has everything Greninja had to offer for X/Y, and then a hell of a lot more. Anything that justifies Greninja helps Sceptile's case.

Sure, PT was not added in until Brawl, that is when Pokemon got six representatives. Ganondorf and Zelda were not added to until Melee, when we could have enough characters to compensate. Yet no one could dismiss the necessity of the triforce.

I don't really doubt Sceptile's potential as a character or the number of Pokémon reps.

I'm worried about his:

-Popularity in Japan as well as his popularity overall. Pokémon is a extremely competitive franchise when it comes to this.

-Influence of the Hoenn remakes on the roster (were they in development by the time Sakurai finalized the roster?)

-Overall competition with Blaziken. Torchic was the only Gen III starter to get an appearance as a Pokéball in Brawl and GameFreak has promoted Blaziken over the other two with his own Anime appearance, as a gift Pokémon in X and Y, and his Mega Evolution given to him.

-Implementation. You guys will get a rude awakening if Sakurai decides to bring back Type Effectiveness from Brawl. This was an important part of the gimmick in Brawl and tends to be a huge portion of your trio theory. Sceptile will get destroyed by characters like Mario, Ness and Charizard if this returns.

You show your point with Blaziken, but that is the point. Blaziken was used both in anime and in the games as a promotion... for X/Y. There are new faces for ORAS.
As for if the type effectiveness returns? It may, or may not. Yet, I would expect Sceptile to have a healing move. Possibly even stat boosting moves.
As for the Hoenn remakes, they were planned out long, long ago. Blaziken being in the former game, the minimal development time between x/y and this game, the released latios/latias megas, and most importantly- a time line of their plans (I AM SEARCHING FOR THE LINK) showcase this.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Took some time, but I believe I found where the debate began.

I can't believe you actually searched for a post that's nearly 3 months old just for this.

Christ, I completely forget a lot of crap I say. lol

 

[Pizzanigs]

Oh great, now we're talking about Sceptile. Good night.

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

I'm glad you brought it up @ CodeBlue_ (and of course, you are entitled to your opinion as well)

Sceptile discussion, from all those in here angry that he actually has a greater probability, and a lot more going to him than simply completing the holy type trinity.

REASONS POKEMON DESERVES THE HIGHEST NUMBER OF REPRESENTATIVES...

Spoiler

Here is a list of other things Pokemon has going for it:
-Easy translation into smash fighters
-Huge marketing capabilities (to draw in more fans, as well as by Game Freak, seen to get Smash fans into Pokemon)
-Vast Empire (Manga, TV, Movies, Trading Cards, Figures, Apps, Clothing, Merchandise beyond compare)
-800+ extremely diverse characters
-20 Years of history
-Worldwide Popularity
-Many types of characters it could represent beyond the basic Pokemon (trainers, rangers, breeders, coordinators, etc)
-Much in the main games to represent (abilities, items, weather and battlefield, double/triple/horde batles, typing, gender, contests, sports competitions, happiness, personality, trading, evolution-all different ways- etc)
-Multitude of types of games to choose from (Main RPG, Ranger, Mystery Dungeon, Snap, Pinball, Trozei, Puzzle League, Coliseum, ... the list is endless)

Sales are not the only factor. Popularity, Size, History, Impact, Relevance, Recency, Diversity, Adaptability, Growth.
Pokemon is unlike ANY other video game franchise, because it is far more than a video game franchise- it is studied on global economic trends as a phenomenon which is still not fully understood on a consumer trend and has not been replicated to this day.

How many reps does it deserve? Well, a good number. It is certainly on a scale to be evaluated separately from all other franchises as it is in a category all its own. A Pokemon added will appeal to a huge audience, regardless of which it is- an audience likely bigger than another given character added. I would not be surprised if it got more than six representatives, not surprised in the slightest, and it would be more than warranted, it would be earned.

...BUT....WHAT ABOUT THAT ITALIAN PLUMBER?

Spoiler

Mario is limited, as you stated. Not to mention, all of its characters have broken off to become separate things.
To be more clear, though, the Marioverse will always have more representatives, and I think that is why it is okay.
Mario, Yoshi, DK, Wario- they are all part of the Marioverse. I think arguing subfranchise or not gets tedious, because there are a plethora of different series' within Marios name, all given the mainstay IPs because Nintendo is accustomed to doing this for Marketing reasons.
Luigi's Mansion and Captain Toad should warrant those characters as separate characters to me, yet they will unlikely be seen as such. They are all in Mario's family, as is DK, as is Wario, as is Waluigi who is now it seems a Warioware character since it makes sense aethetically to Sakurai (and is prepping us for his inclusion in the next Smash game as a Wario character).

In short- Pokemon will not be overslotted to Mario, because Mario is so big it gets to be more than one franchise.

PRECEDENT SAYS WE WILL GET ANOTHER NEW POKEMON!

Spoiler

I have already posted in length about just how prominent Pokemon is and why it is absurd to think it should not get high levels of representation, second to nothing but Mario, and only Mario when you consider the entire Mario universe.

I believe I will begin with Pokemon's character representation, and the general likelihood that, whether you are inclined to believe it or not, precedence dictates we are going to have at least one additional Pokemon Newcomer.
By fact alone, we had two newcomers in SSB64, two more in SSBM, and then FOUR MORE in SSBB. I will not go as far as to say the representation going from 2, 4, 6, means we are likely to get 8, but the fact that we have never gotten just a single new Pokemon representative for this series would be strange after getting four in the previous game, with two being likely cuts. The fact that we have had two generations leads me to believe we will have at least two newcomers, and the size of this franchise as a whole indicates it is worthy of a vast amount of representation, if for no other reason than to simply appease Game Freak and the Millions of fans it alone brings Smash.

It could be argued the newcomer would come from Gen 5, but I would point out that it was in Brawl that we finally got the main character from the first Generation, Pokemon Trainer, who added in three first generation Pokemon.

Now, if you want to debate who that second newcomer would be, absolutely, that is the fun! I'm here to point out some of what Sceptile has going for him as the front runner of those other plausible options.

WHAT DOES SCEPTILE HAVE GOING FOR HIM?

Spoiler

Many people seem to keep coming to the conclusion that he only completes the grass-fire-water type trinity... and then also belittling the vast role said trinity plays in Pokemon and the Pokemon games.
* To quickly back track, As for this ...this type trinity is something that Sakurai has brought into play in the first place. It is impossible to assert that Pokemon Trainer was a one shot idea and fans are the only ones who think it is important.
**The heavily advertised mechanics of rock-paper-scissor have been used to introduce players to the mechanics of battling in pokemon since generation one, and in short represent the entire battle mechanics of the universe to which the games are from. This triangle, also used in marketing, always emphasizes three types and three starters. When a new generation is out, one of the ways Game Freak displays the new generation is by showcasing who the new starters will be; without fail it is one of the first things we learn. The types do not only represent the balance in fighting,but also the advertising of the franchise itself.


Sceptile is the Pokemon Ash has, FYI. He also has Charizard and Froakie (who will evolve into Greninja). Sceptile has been given a lot of character in the show, with hardships over learning moves, isolating, and attraction to other pokemon.

Grovyle, of the Sceptile evolution line, was also a prominently featured in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, one of the main spinoffs of Pokemon's handheld games which is not a part of the RPG.


We have recently seen Sakurai talk about the first character who can heal while hurting someone else, Robin, using the move Nosferatu, implying this is a technique someone else may use.
As a grass type Pokemon, and taking over a common trope in RPG's, Sceptile could easily take on the role of a healer, and heal himself while damaging others.

Given that he is a type of Dinosaur/Lizard, it would be evident that his moveset involve wall climbing, or otherwise unique ways of holding onto ledges. He could be the first character in Sm4sh to use grass based attacks, which are common in RPGs but have yet to make much appearance in Smash, or he could be a grappling character. He has plenty of signature moves, most iconic- his leaf blades.
Honestly, for originality, he is lacking nothing, and is one of the easiest characters to have twelve different original move sets which he easily inspires, with an easy array of Seeds, Powders, Vines, Leafs, and Solar attacks which make him too variant to mess with. (We have already seen Robin with Nosferatu (a healing move), and both Wii Fit Trainer and Palutena with stat altering moves. A few Pokeball Pokemon, Xerneas and Victini, have been shown to alter stats as well. )

In short, adding Sceptile does not simply add one Pokemon, it allows the entire franchise to be represented in a multitude of other ways- it allows each Pokemon to represent more than just itself, and how popular each given one may be, but allows the whole to stand for something.
Sakurai has expressed devout interest in trying to remain loyal to representing the feel of characters correctly, as well as the feel of a franchise- to do this with Pokemon, he cannot simply have a few monsters of the greater whole that just exist as a few selected of over 700 +.
Adding Sceptile in does not just complete the type trinity, it pays tribute to multiple generations, acknowledges the advertising of the franchise, it gives homage to other games in the series' besides the main RPG, and it rounds out the representation of the Pokemon contestants to actually stand for something other than individual slots in themselves.

Speculation:

Spoiler

As it stands right now, Greninja was chosen because he... looked cool and could potentially be popular? I find that highly suspect to any analysis someone in the crowd could put out. If Sakurai were not limiting himself to starting roster Pokemon, why would he have chosen Greninja? He has gone on record to state that he liked the Ninja aspect, and we already have many of those characteristics in Sheik- if he wanted just a plain cool looking Pokemon that was popular with the fans, he had a plethora of other options he could have chosen from, unless he was going for something a bit deeper than just representing Greninja alone, and being nudged heavily to present him by Game Freak, of course. If Greninja can be added solely on the basis that he 'looks cool and might be popular,' this suggests already Sceptile has much more to offer. In fact, I would say Greninja may likely have been the one added to complete the type trio, and Sceptile just happens to be the one who is staying hidden.

Additionally, let us not kid ourselves to believe the Gen 3 remakes were not already nearly complete a long time ago. I'd personally be shocked if Nintendo representatives were not fighting to get information to Sakurai in hopes to sway him to add their characters into Smash bros (as we have seen, third parties do it, so why would Nintendo first parties not give him as much info as possible, it is the best advertising they could get). Yet I digress! If you want proof as to how clear it was the remakes have been planned for a long time, please ask and I will cite more information from the Sceptile thread. In short, just google it, they've been planned for a long time. Even if Sakurai is not given information on Nintendo information as a whole, he certainly can find out anything he wants for Pokemon's GAMING plan.

I would argue Blaziken having his Mega Evolution last year just sets up for the fact that Sceptile and Marshy are now the posterboys of these remakes with there megas, and that Blaziken's mega further dictates how aware they were of these remakes long ago.

Perhaps in time I will make this bullet point. It is a lot to go through.

"After Blaziken, Sceptile is probably the most popular Hoenn Pokemon with a design that would fit well into Smash (I've been saying "fit well into Smash" a lot), and I admit that Sceptile would be a decent newcomer choice. Hell, if it did show up, I'd main it in a heartbeat. However, there are better character choices in Mewtwo, Jigglypuff, and Blaziken (ordered by likelihood, this is coming from someone who's a gigantic fan of Sceptile). Sceptile just lacks the significance of those three, and "muh fire-water-grass triangle" is a poor reason for its inclusion; Greninja wasn't even added because of its typing, that was just a coincidence. All in all, I don't think Sceptile is going to appear. "

 

[pupNapoleon]

Oh great, now we're talking about Sceptile. Good night.

Well, we already know King K Rool is in, what is the point in that

 

[NickerBocker]

I have mentioned this once before, but I will mention it again. In terms of Sceptile, people are claiming that the 3rd gen remake may have been too far ahead to get representation. But does that really matter? I mean, anybody with prior knowledge of Pokemon could figure out that a 3rd gen remake was on the horizon. And if Sakurai had inside knowledge, which Im sure he did, he could have prepared for such a situation. Even if he didnt, Sakurai should be smart enough to figure out a 3rd gen remake was coming.

Not that I think Sceptile is likely anyway, but I dont think that will be the reason he wont be in. There are just too many other good choices, one being a OG12, and another being one of, if not the most requested character on the planet. After those two, sure, why not. But unless Pokemon gets 7 characters, I simply dont see it happening. Skipping over Mewtwo or Jigglypuff would be a huge shock to me.

 

[Zynux]

I am not necessarily an advocate of Dark Pit as a vastly different character; honestly, I want to see him as a clone. However, I am sure that they are citing the differences between the two in order to establish that there is a lot of untapped move-set potential of Pit himself, and therefore, a clone of Pit is fairly justified. There might be subtle variations; for instance, instead of the "arm" for a side-special, Dark Pit might use "Pandora's claws" instead. Similar to Lucas and Ness' specials (PK Freeze vs. PK Flash). I do; however, agree with his flight being the of the only canonical differences (along with the Dark Pit staff). I usually cite his infinite flight as a definitive difference that would be easy to translate into a new recovery special. As for the Silver Bow, that would just allude to property variations on his normals, perhaps. I doubt anyone believes that Dark Pit will be included as a completely unique character. Most people (probably) expect that he is predominately clone, or even a semi-clone. Some might reach and assert that he would be a pseudo-clone in the same vein as Wolf. It is impossible to determine the route that Sakurai is comfortable with (this includes the possibility that Dark Pit might not even be a character).

I understand. In a scenario when Dark Pit gets in, I most certainly believe he will have varying differences similar to Fox/Falco Melee differences, or Mario/Dr. Mario differences. However, when someone asserts the high probability of a certain character to be a clone, defenders far often resort to just throwing out random items and weapons the character have used to justifiy differences when in 3 Smash Bros games (I know, I know, "muh patterns") it seems unlikely for it to happen. Also, I definitely do not agree with the notion that Dark Pit is more likely to be unique then Dixie (I'm not arguing Dixie is a library of "uniqueness" potential, however) which BluePikmin was insinuating.

I would be very surprised if Dark Pit even had differing specials. However, I will admit that it is a possibility. if he must be clone, that's the best I can hope for it seems.

Apparently, according to @KenithTheGatherer Sceptile is about as likely as Dark Pit. So, I suppose that means that he is shoe-in.

Morbid pls

 

[CodeBlue_]

@ pupNapoleon I think you are mistaken on why GameFreak promotes the triad. They do not promote the triad for the triad's sake put rather promote the starters of every generation because they are cute little pokemon that are 9 times out of 10 based on actual animals with their respective elements, that evolve into cool/"badass" pokemon.

I also think Sakurai doesn't bother with the concept of the triad either. He promoted Red in Brawl because he liked the concept of the trainer himself and chose the three starters because these starters were iconic. But the fact that he removed this (with the removal of transformations and Charizard standing alone without any sign of the mechanic from Brawl returning) also shows that Sakurai may not appreciate the mechanic as much as you think.

Type Effectiveness is most likely gone. The entire Rock-Paper-Scissors gimmick may go with it.

 

[Deleted member]

That's not what I claimed in that quote. I said that rule might not be the reason Toon Link stayed the same in this installment. My previous statement was used to justify the possibility that he could change his mind on the matter as it happened with other rules.

Problem is, that's speculation on something that can't be proven.
The fact that Toon Link is unchanged doesn't give indication that he changed his mind on Toon Link being required to share a similar set of specials with his non-Toon counterpart. Rather, it implies the opposite.
Rendering the point about "he could've changed his mind" baseless. To assert that "there could be other reasons" is making excuses to make the point credible.

 

[Morbi]

I'm glad you brought it up @ CodeBlue_ (and of course, you are entitled to your opinion as well)

Sceptile discussion, from all those in here angry that he actually has a greater probability, and a lot more going to him than simply completing the holy type trinity.

REASONS POKEMON DESERVES THE HIGHEST NUMBER OF REPRESENTATIVES...

Spoiler

Here is a list of other things Pokemon has going for it:
-Easy translation into smash fighters
-Huge marketing capabilities (to draw in more fans, as well as by Game Freak, seen to get Smash fans into Pokemon)
-Vast Empire (Manga, TV, Movies, Trading Cards, Figures, Apps, Clothing, Merchandise beyond compare)
-800+ extremely diverse characters
-20 Years of history
-Worldwide Popularity
-Many types of characters it could represent beyond the basic Pokemon (trainers, rangers, breeders, coordinators, etc)
-Much in the main games to represent (abilities, items, weather and battlefield, double/triple/horde batles, typing, gender, contests, sports competitions, happiness, personality, trading, evolution-all different ways- etc)
-Multitude of types of games to choose from (Main RPG, Ranger, Mystery Dungeon, Snap, Pinball, Trozei, Puzzle League, Coliseum, ... the list is endless)

Sales are not the only factor. Popularity, Size, History, Impact, Relevance, Recency, Diversity, Adaptability, Growth.
Pokemon is unlike ANY other video game franchise, because it is far more than a video game franchise- it is studied on global economic trends as a phenomenon which is still not fully understood on a consumer trend and has not been replicated to this day.

How many reps does it deserve? Well, a good number. It is certainly on a scale to be evaluated separately from all other franchises as it is in a category all its own. A Pokemon added will appeal to a huge audience, regardless of which it is- an audience likely bigger than another given character added. I would not be surprised if it got more than six representatives, not surprised in the slightest, and it would be more than warranted, it would be earned.

...BUT....WHAT ABOUT THAT ITALIAN PLUMBER?

Spoiler

Mario is limited, as you stated. Not to mention, all of its characters have broken off to become separate things.
To be more clear, though, the Marioverse will always have more representatives, and I think that is why it is okay.
Mario, Yoshi, DK, Wario- they are all part of the Marioverse. I think arguing subfranchise or not gets tedious, because there are a plethora of different series' within Marios name, all given the mainstay IPs because Nintendo is accustomed to doing this for Marketing reasons.
Luigi's Mansion and Captain Toad should warrant those characters as separate characters to me, yet they will unlikely be seen as such. They are all in Mario's family, as is DK, as is Wario, as is Waluigi who is now it seems a Warioware character since it makes sense aethetically to Sakurai (and is prepping us for his inclusion in the next Smash game as a Wario character).

In short- Pokemon will not be overslotted to Mario, because Mario is so big it gets to be more than one franchise.

PRECEDENT SAYS WE WILL GET ANOTHER NEW POKEMON!

Spoiler

I have already posted in length about just how prominent Pokemon is and why it is absurd to think it should not get high levels of representation, second to nothing but Mario, and only Mario when you consider the entire Mario universe.

I believe I will begin with Pokemon's character representation, and the general likelihood that, whether you are inclined to believe it or not, precedence dictates we are going to have at least one additional Pokemon Newcomer.
By fact alone, we had two newcomers in SSB64, two more in SSBM, and then FOUR MORE in SSBB. I will not go as far as to say the representation going from 2, 4, 6, means we are likely to get 8, but the fact that we have never gotten just a single new Pokemon representative for this series would be strange after getting four in the previous game, with two being likely cuts. The fact that we have had two generations leads me to believe we will have at least two newcomers, and the size of this franchise as a whole indicates it is worthy of a vast amount of representation, if for no other reason than to simply appease Game Freak and the Millions of fans it alone brings Smash.

It could be argued the newcomer would come from Gen 5, but I would point out that it was in Brawl that we finally got the main character from the first Generation, Pokemon Trainer, who added in three first generation Pokemon.

Now, if you want to debate who that second newcomer would be, absolutely, that is the fun! I'm here to point out some of what Sceptile has going for him as the front runner of those other plausible options.

WHAT DOES SCEPTILE HAVE GOING FOR HIM?

Spoiler

Many people seem to keep coming to the conclusion that he only completes the grass-fire-water type trinity... and then also belittling the vast role said trinity plays in Pokemon and the Pokemon games.
* To quickly back track, As for this ...this type trinity is something that Sakurai has brought into play in the first place. It is impossible to assert that Pokemon Trainer was a one shot idea and fans are the only ones who think it is important.
**The heavily advertised mechanics of rock-paper-scissor have been used to introduce players to the mechanics of battling in pokemon since generation one, and in short represent the entire battle mechanics of the universe to which the games are from. This triangle, also used in marketing, always emphasizes three types and three starters. When a new generation is out, one of the ways Game Freak displays the new generation is by showcasing who the new starters will be; without fail it is one of the first things we learn. The types do not only represent the balance in fighting,but also the advertising of the franchise itself.


Sceptile is the Pokemon Ash has, FYI. He also has Charizard and Froakie (who will evolve into Greninja). Sceptile has been given a lot of character in the show, with hardships over learning moves, isolating, and attraction to other pokemon.

Grovyle, of the Sceptile evolution line, was also a prominently featured in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, one of the main spinoffs of Pokemon's handheld games which is not a part of the RPG.


We have recently seen Sakurai talk about the first character who can heal while hurting someone else, Robin, using the move Nosferatu, implying this is a technique someone else may use.
As a grass type Pokemon, and taking over a common trope in RPG's, Sceptile could easily take on the role of a healer, and heal himself while damaging others.

Given that he is a type of Dinosaur/Lizard, it would be evident that his moveset involve wall climbing, or otherwise unique ways of holding onto ledges. He could be the first character in Sm4sh to use grass based attacks, which are common in RPGs but have yet to make much appearance in Smash, or he could be a grappling character. He has plenty of signature moves, most iconic- his leaf blades.
Honestly, for originality, he is lacking nothing, and is one of the easiest characters to have twelve different original move sets which he easily inspires, with an easy array of Seeds, Powders, Vines, Leafs, and Solar attacks which make him too variant to mess with. (We have already seen Robin with Nosferatu (a healing move), and both Wii Fit Trainer and Palutena with stat altering moves. A few Pokeball Pokemon, Xerneas and Victini, have been shown to alter stats as well. )

In short, adding Sceptile does not simply add one Pokemon, it allows the entire franchise to be represented in a multitude of other ways- it allows each Pokemon to represent more than just itself, and how popular each given one may be, but allows the whole to stand for something.
Sakurai has expressed devout interest in trying to remain loyal to representing the feel of characters correctly, as well as the feel of a franchise- to do this with Pokemon, he cannot simply have a few monsters of the greater whole that just exist as a few selected of over 700 +.
Adding Sceptile in does not just complete the type trinity, it pays tribute to multiple generations, acknowledges the advertising of the franchise, it gives homage to other games in the series' besides the main RPG, and it rounds out the representation of the Pokemon contestants to actually stand for something other than individual slots in themselves.

Speculation:

Spoiler

As it stands right now, Greninja was chosen because he... looked cool and could potentially be popular? I find that highly suspect to any analysis someone in the crowd could put out. If Sakurai were not limiting himself to starting roster Pokemon, why would he have chosen Greninja? He has gone on record to state that he liked the Ninja aspect, and we already have many of those characteristics in Sheik- if he wanted just a plain cool looking Pokemon that was popular with the fans, he had a plethora of other options he could have chosen from, unless he was going for something a bit deeper than just representing Greninja alone, and being nudged heavily to present him by Game Freak, of course. If Greninja can be added solely on the basis that he 'looks cool and might be popular,' this suggests already Sceptile has much more to offer. In fact, I would say Greninja may likely have been the one added to complete the type trio, and Sceptile just happens to be the one who is staying hidden.

Additionally, let us not kid ourselves to believe the Gen 3 remakes were not already nearly complete a long time ago. I'd personally be shocked if Nintendo representatives were not fighting to get information to Sakurai in hopes to sway him to add their characters into Smash bros (as we have seen, third parties do it, so why would Nintendo first parties not give him as much info as possible, it is the best advertising they could get). Yet I digress! If you want proof as to how clear it was the remakes have been planned for a long time, please ask and I will cite more information from the Sceptile thread. In short, just google it, they've been planned for a long time. Even if Sakurai is not given information on Nintendo information as a whole, he certainly can find out anything he wants for Pokemon's GAMING plan.

I would argue Blaziken having his Mega Evolution last year just sets up for the fact that Sceptile and Marshy are now the posterboys of these remakes with there megas, and that Blaziken's mega further dictates how aware they were of these remakes long ago.

Perhaps in time I will make this bullet point. It is a lot to go through.

Interesting, the post should have been a lot more concise to be honest. Namely the spiel on why Pokemon deserves another representative. 'Tis common knowledge that they do. Regardless, I had forgotten about Sceptile's prominence in the anime over the other third generation starters. I suppose you are correct, I was fairly dismissive of the trinity, which I referred to as an arbitrary fan pattern. The biggest sentiment that resonated with me, however: "As it stands right now, Greninja was chosen because he... looked cool and could potentially be popular? I find that highly suspect to any analysis someone in the crowd could put out." Basically, anyone that does not **** ride Sakurai should have found that notion curious. There was always something off with that reasoning... or lack thereof.

Consider this a success, boy. You have convinced me.

 

[pupNapoleon]

@ pupNapoleon I think you are mistaken on why GameFreak promotes the triad. They do not promote the triad for the triad's sake put rather promote the starters of every generation because they are cute little pokemon that are 9 times out of 10 based on actual animals with their respective elements, that evolve into cool/"badass" pokemon.

I also think Sakurai doesn't bother with the concept of the triad either. He promoted Red in Brawl because he liked the concept of the trainer himself and chose the three starters because these starters were iconic. But the fact that he removed this (with the removal of transformations and Charizard standing alone without any sign of the mechanic from Brawl returning) also shows that Sakurai may not appreciate the mechanic as much as you think.

Type Effectiveness is most likely gone. The entire Rock-Paper-Scissors gimmick may go with it.

He did not choose the starters just because they are iconic; the fact that he chose three separate stages for them indicates he was trying to showcase more of what Pokemon is about, more than just an individual character, but an attempt to actually represent what the series is about.

I am not saying Sakurai does or does not agree, but there are other popular Pokemon he could have chosen from generation 6 if he wanted something 'cool looking,' especially since a Ninja character, if this is all he was inspired by, was simply not enough, as we have Sheik. Sakurai stated he wanted to go for characters that inspired a new game play, and his stated reasons for including Greninja completely contradict this. It shows Game Freak's attempts to advertise. Either Sakurai is withholding information about why he included Greninja, or he is not, and it just so happens to not be much of a reason at all, inherently showing us Game Freak pushed him into it.

I cannot agree with you about the marketing of the type starters being about the 'cute animals.' If you've played Pokemon already, it is easy to ignore that this introduces you to the forefront of the battling strategy in the game; yet if it is your first time playing, each generation makes it a point (and gives you a rival to it!) to showcase just how prominent this trinity is.
If they just wanted 'cute animals,' we would have some other cute ones in the lineup of marketing. The original ones are rarely the cutest of the entire generation.
Essentially, including the type trinity is including the fact that Pokemon battle in their game. Otherwise they are just haphazard plush toys in Smash who happen to fight in no relation to each other.

Interesting, the post should have been a lot more concise to be honest. Namely the spiel on why Pokemon deserves another representative. 'Tis common knowledge that they do. .

It is long because it is a few merged posts, fair.
Yet, the spiel is that long because there are apparently many people who believe five representatives for Pokemon is enough

 

[Arcanir]

You show your point with Blaziken, but that is the point. Blaziken was used both in anime and in the games as a promotion... for X/Y. There are new faces for ORAS.
As for if the type effectiveness returns? It may, or may not. Yet, I would expect Sceptile to have a healing move. Possibly even stat boosting moves.
As for the Hoenn remakes, they were planned out long, long ago. Blaziken being in the former game, the minimal development time between x/y and this game, the released latios/latias megas, and most importantly- a time line of their plans (I AM SEARCHING FOR THE LINK) showcase this.

I really have to ask this: What's the difference between Sceptile's advertisements and Blaziken's advertisements as far as ORAS is concerned? As of right now, Blaziken has been in the same advertisements for the game despite being revealed earlier, they were both in the Corocoro magazine at the initial reveal, and both in the artwork that came out last month, so why should Sceptile be given credit here for it while Blaziken shouldn't? Also, Blaziken being in XY's advertisements be more of a boon then a detriment considering that it means it was prominent for most of the generation whereas Sceptile only recently came back into the spotlight, I don't see how that is a negative.

Also, note that Blaziken and the Latis were in the XY game data while Sceptile (and Swampert) weren't, so those two existence does not mean that ORAS was planned out that long ago, or at the very least, MegaSceptile may've not been in the cards at that point in time. Hypothetically, yes it could be, but it just as easily could not be as not everything in ORAS is in XY's data and ORAS is taking from the latter's build.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I really have to ask this: What's the difference between Sceptile's advertisements and Blaziken's advertisements as far as ORAS is concerned? As of right now, Blaziken has been in the same advertisements for the game despite being revealed earlier, they were both in the Corocoro magazine at the initial reveal, and both in the artwork that came out last month, so why should Sceptile be given credit here for it while Blaziken shouldn't? Also, Blaziken being in XY's advertisements be more of a boon then a detriment considering that it means it was prominent for most of the generation whereas Sceptile only recently came back into the spotlight, I don't see how that is a negative.

Also, note that Blaziken and the Latis were in the XY game data while Sceptile (and Swampert) weren't, so those two existence does not mean that ORAS was planned out that long ago, or at the very least, MegaSceptile may've not been in the cards at that point in time. Hypothetically, yes it could be, but it just as easily could not be as not everything in ORAS is in XY's data and ORAS is taking from the latter's build.

Fair points. It makes Sceptile new again; if it had been out for a while, he would not be as new.
This could be argued both ways I'm sure, yet the new factor (because in terms of advertising, new = better), and mega evolutions mean new and improved.
There is less hype for what we have already seen, which is Blaziken.

I am not denouncing Blaziken's possibility; but Pichu was certainly not the most popular baby Pokemon, and if pure popularity is all that mattered, we would be back in Brawl with a roster of Gen 1 Pokemon.
...and that would please me

PS- cannot wait for Christmas cards with Sceptile Tree's on them.
I will make that Bulky Swampert into a Menorah, yet!

 

[CodeBlue_]

He did not choose the starters just because they are iconic; the fact that he chose three separate stages for them indicates he was trying to showcase more of what Pokemon is about, more than just an individual character, but an attempt to actually represent what the series is about.

I am not saying Sakurai does or does not agree, but there are other popular Pokemon he could have chosen from generation 6 if he wanted something 'cool looking,' especially since a Ninja character, if this is all he was inspired by, was simply not enough, as we have Sheik. Sakurai stated he wanted to go for characters that inspired a new game play, and his stated reasons for including Greninja completely contradict this. It shows Game Freak's attempts to advertise. Either Sakurai is withholding information about why he included Greninja, or he is not, and it just so happens to not be much of a reason at all, inherently showing us Game Freak pushed him into it.

I cannot agree with you about the marketing of the type starters being about

The reasoning for Greninja's inclusion is peculiar and is probably your best argument in Sceptile's inclusion, IF AND ONLY IF he is deemed the most popular grass type. We could get a character like Breloom or Venusaur for all we know. Then again, Sakurai could have chosen Greninja because he liked his design, who knows.

You show your point with Blaziken, but that is the point. Blaziken was used both in anime and in the games as a promotion... for X/Y. There are new faces for ORAS.
As for if the type effectiveness returns? It may, or may not. Yet, I would expect Sceptile to have a healing move. Possibly even stat boosting moves.
As for the Hoenn remakes, they were planned out long, long ago. Blaziken being in the former game, the minimal development time between x/y and this game, the released latios/latias megas, and most importantly- a time line of their plans (I AM SEARCHING FOR THE LINK) showcase this.

I'm going to disregard your first point as this is heavily up to opinion on which one to choose out of the two.

As for the final point, I think it is whether Sakurai knows about the remakes enough to promote them properly. We don't know at what part of development OR/AS was at when Sakurai developed the roster and we would have to know this in order to determine its value in this argument. I'm intrigued by that link however; please show it to us.

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

Pichu not being the most popular baby Pokemon is a falsehood. At least at the time, Pichu was very popular, and was a Game Freak favorite at least until 2010 (remember the "Spiky-Eared" Pichu thing? Oh, and Volt Tackle). The "Pichu & Pichu" short in Pokemon 3: The Movie boosted its recognition (though it was promoted before that), and on top of that it's the pre-evolved form of Pikachu, the Pokemon franchise's mascot. However, it ended up being a terrible and unpopular Smash Bros. character among both casual and competitive players, so it was cut. It was the only one of the five characters from Melee that were cut to not have any unused data on Brawl's disc, to add.

 

[Arcanir]

Fair points. It makes Sceptile new again; if it had been out for a while, he would not be as new.
This could be argued both ways I'm sure, yet the new factor (because in terms of advertising, new = better), and mega evolutions mean new and improved.
There is less hype for what we have already seen, which is Blaziken.

The thing is, while the fans may be used to it now, the advertisers aren't treating it that way. Blaziken is still being featured alongside the others, so as far as GF is concerned, both are on the same level in terms of marketing for that game. Plus, I'm betting that they're going to give Blaziken a second Mega form.

I am not denouncing Blaziken's possibility; but Pichu was certainly not the most popular baby Pokemon, and if pure popularity is all that mattered, we would be back in Brawl with a roster of Gen 1 Pokemon.
...and that would please me

I'd debate that as Pichu is connected to the ever popular Pikachu line, which is a major boon in and of itself, and was featured in movie specials and the like. Even if it wasn't the most popular baby, it was definitely at least close to it at the point in time it was chosen. Similarly, Lucario's popularity boomed at the time and it probably rivals most Gen 1 Pokémon at this point, so I'd guess it would've been in Brawl regardless.

...and that would please me

...And that wouldn't please me at all.

PS- cannot wait for Christmas cards with Sceptile Tree's on them.
I will make that Bulky Swampert into a Menorah, yet!

He'd go well with my Jirachi.

 

[Starbound]

With Sceptile, do you guys think it could work for him to be a semi-clone of Greninja?

Like swap the water swords with leaf blades, shuriken becomes razor leaf, whirlpools become leaf tornado (it's a Pokemon move), up special can become leaf storm and Shadow Sneak can basically be the same thing given that it could fit for both Pokemon.