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Character Discussion Thread

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Morbi

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@ Autumn ♫ Autumn ♫
I would argue that the last possible reveal time for Snake is the August Direct.

He really can't be a casually revealed veteran. So no, he can't be revealed at any time Sakurai decides to reveal him.
Third parties are a special case. I stand by my theory that Snake would have been revealed at E3 if included in the game.
It was pretty much the perfect time to include him; to appeal to the more hardcore audience at E3. But it didn't happen.
Or Snake returns as a hidden-character surprising everyone! :snake:

"I was here the whole time, you just did not see me as I was in a box!"
 

Autumn ♫

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@ Autumn ♫ Autumn ♫
I would argue that the last possible reveal time for Snake is the August Direct.

He really can't be a casually revealed veteran. So no, he can't be revealed at any time Sakurai decides to reveal him.
Third parties are a special case. I stand by my theory that Snake would have been revealed at E3 if included in the game.
It was pretty much the perfect time to include him; to appeal to the more hardcore audience at E3. But it didn't happen.
Well, of course he can't be revealed like any other veteran through PotD, but he has plenty of other ways, such as the directs, or what I think will happen, him being in the final trailer of the game, along with Ridley.
 

Jman0625

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Well, of course he can't be revealed like any other veteran through PotD, but he has plenty of other ways, such as the directs, or what I think will happen, him being in the final trailer of the game, along with Ridley.
I feel like if he IS back (Burst Grenades kinda hurt his chances) then they HAVE to do it during a direct or at least a similar video to Sonic in that direct. I think he might be gone, but I definitely can't use Kojima saying "Sakurai never talked with me about his inclusion" because this is coming from the man who MADE A FAKE COMPANY FOR MGS 5!
 

Jason the Yoshi

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As much as I desperately want Snake back, I think he's gonna go on hiatus until next time after we see some buyouts. It's still gonna destroy me inside if he's given the axe though
 
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Weeman

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Honestly it's Snake or bust for me, not even belmont could fill that cigarette filled void.
 

ElPanandero

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I could bang with Bomberman, Simon would be cool, Snake is meh for me, I could take him or leave him
 

Morbi

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In terms of a Konami representative, it is Snake or bust. Otherwise, he might as well have added Rayman if he wanted some mediocre sub-standard character like Bomberman in the game. :troll:
 

pupNapoleon

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Something that has remained (unanimously) consistent, for about over a year as of current, is that people want Vaati off of your roster. :troll:

However; there is, more likely than not; going to be, at the very least, one more newcomer that is a clone.

"However, even though Lucina shares her physical stats and techniques with Marth, the characteristics of their attacks differ."

Why do the characteristics of her attacks differ? The answer is quite simple, Sakurai made them differ. Why might he do such? The most logical explanation is that another character introduced a similar concept.
The most logical answer is that he made her attacks differ to justify making her a different character. Lucina is highly popular among fans east and west, and he has a proven desire to add females to the roster.
If he were in fact doing what you proposed, and came up with the concept outside of Lucina, then it just as easily could have been Chrom who was made the alternate slot. Yet no, Chrom was not unique enough, even though this exact differentiation could have been made, and instead, Lucina was chosen, because she was chosen as a character to be included, in heavy part because of her gender and popularity.
No matter which way you look at it, the fact that he chose Lucina showcases that it is a scenario that, while it may be used for further examples after her, was utilized for her, because of her.
 

HylianHeroBigBoss

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I feel like if he IS back (Burst Grenades kinda hurt his chances) then they HAVE to do it during a direct or at least a similar video to Sonic in that direct. I think he might be gone, but I definitely can't use Kojima saying "Sakurai never talked with me about his inclusion" because this is coming from the man who MADE A FAKE COMPANY FOR MGS 5!
Sheiks burst grenades hurt him no way what so ever, there are a ton of characters that share moves and similar final smashes. Also kojima never once said that he didnt talk with sakurai, he said that he "didnt know since hes not working on that game". I dont know how many times ive seen that worded wrong already, but i have to correct it everytime i see it.
 

shinhed-echi

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Simon Belmont for me.
I can relate a lot more to the Castlevania series. It's had SO many games (heck, so many exclusives) on Nintendo platforms, it wouldn't be funny to say it's not deserving.
I wish it didn't have to come down to Snake vs Simon, because both are gaming powerhouses. But if I had to choose, I'd pick Simon hands down.

The whip, the atmosphere, the MUSIC.
If Sakurai has been following Project M closely from what we've seen (and I hope he has) then I hope the Castlevania stage is an indication of how bad we want Simon.
 

Zhadgon

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In terms of a Konami representative, it is Snake or bust. Otherwise, he might as well have added Rayman if he wanted some mediocre sub-standard character like Bomberman in the game. :troll:


You should have mentioned Professor Layton :troll:
.n_n.
 
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Cobalsh

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I just thought of the perfect fourth-party:

Optimus Prime.


Popular in Japan, popular in America, still relevant to the general public, kids like Transformers, the average age group of Smash fans grew up with Transformers...



Nothing bad can come from this. (This actually sounded a lot like excuses for playable Goku, actually)
 

Morbi

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The most logical answer is that he made her attacks differ to justify making her a different character. Lucina is highly popular among fans east and west, and he has a proven desire to add females to the roster.
If he were in fact doing what you proposed, and came up with the concept outside of Lucina, then it just as easily could have been Chrom who was made the alternate slot. Yet no, Chrom was not unique enough, even though this exact differentiation could have been made, and instead, Lucina was chosen, because she was chosen as a character to be included, in heavy part because of her gender and popularity.
No matter which way you look at it, the fact that he chose Lucina showcases that it is a scenario that, while it may be used for further examples after her, was utilized for her, because of her.
*sigh*

These attacks did not have different characteristics prior to Sakurai giving them different characteristics. If they did, she would not be an alternate costume... which is why she is not. It seems fairly straight forward. I suppose it is possible that he just randomly decided that she was worthy of a slot based on her popularity (which is why she was a costume in the first place, I digress). However, his quote clearly implies something else. Therefore, the "most logical" answer is the one provided.

Initially, I had considered including Lucina as one of Marth's alternate costumes. After all, she has a close relationship with him in FE:A. In such cases, even if two characters' names and voices differ, as long as they function the same way, I assign them as alternate costumes. The Wii Fit Trainers, Villagers, and Robin are examples of this setup.

However, even though Lucina shares her physical stats and techniques with Marth, the characteristics of their attacks differ. When two such similar characters function in an even slightly different manner, I give them a separate spot on the roster since that will affect battle records and whatnot. In that sense, you could say she was very lucky to join the fray!
 
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HylianHeroBigBoss

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I just thought of the perfect fourth-party:

Optimus Prime.


Popular in Japan, popular in America, still relevant to the general public, kids like Transformers, the average age group of Smash fans grew up with Transformers...



Nothing bad can come from this. (This actually sounded a lot like excuses for playable Goku, actually)
What would you say if i told you snake already fought optimus prime, simon belmont, and bomberman?

 

TheSoraKid

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Simon Belmont for me.
I can relate a lot more to the Castlevania series. It's had SO many games (heck, so many exclusives) on Nintendo platforms, it wouldn't be funny to say it's not deserving.
I wish it didn't have to come down to Snake vs Simon, because both are gaming powerhouses. But if I had to choose, I'd pick Simon hands down.

The whip, the atmosphere, the MUSIC.
If Sakurai has been following Project M closely from what we've seen (and I hope he has) then I hope the Castlevania stage is an indication of how bad we want Simon.
That's unless demand for Simon skyrockets or something.
 

The Nerd

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You know what's actually kinda difficult? Predicting clone characters.

I was thinking about how Dark Pit is different enough from Pit to be his own guy (hence why I now agree he's got a shot), and it has made me start thinking about more characters who could get in. However, the more I think about it, the more I think there's a fine line.

Stuff like Dry Bowser or a James McCloud costume for Fox would likely be able to be on the same character. But a completely separate character? I think that draws the line.

It's the same reason why Dixie (should she get the clone treatment), would get her own slot. She'd be different enough to get her own slot, but she'd still get some changes made to her.

I myself admit I think I read too much into Sakurai's quote on alternate costumes and characters. I think it goes like this: 1) Alternates of same character go under the same slot or 2) Alternate of completely different characters get separated. This was made early on in development. So it might have been originally planned to have costumes like Lucina on other characters, but it didn't work out with Sakurai's vision.

My small list of clone characters/attempted alternates are:
-Dark Pit
-Dixie
-Lucina

That's all I have. I can't think of too many more options. Thoughts?
I actually have a lot of fun trying to think of clever, unusual clones or luigified clones of characters, and I've managed to come up with quite a few believable ones.

Skull Kid could be a somewhat uninspired Lucas Clone, with a few attacks switched out. In particular I imagine his FSmash becomes some sort of dark magic, and his grab uses fairies.
Viewtiful Joe could make a cool Captain Falcon Clone, but isn't first party.
There are a ton of potential pokemon clones. Setting aside the various Pikachu derivatives for a moment, Sylveon could have been an incredibly light, quick, luigified Ivysaur.
Ghirahim could be another very easy clone of Marth OR Ike, dependent on what weapon he was using. I think Marth would suit him better though. Hell, he could be a simpler clone of robin, just have him be levitating an energy dagger the entire time, and luigify his specials.
Black Shadow is an easy Captain Falcon clone; he could inherit Ganondorf's moveset. Maximum irony if Ganondorf immediately becomes a clone of Ike,
An advance wars rep could be faster, lighter clones of Snake.
I'm out of ideas for now... but I'll be back.
 
D

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Once again I should point out that Snake isn't the reason that Brawl got a T rating & that he has appeared in DreamMix TV World Fighters, a game with a CERO rating of everyone.
Brawl has a CERO rating of everyone.

Don't use the CERO rating of an import title to compare to the ESRB rating of an international title.
Especially since standards between regions differ.
 

pupNapoleon

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*sigh*

These attacks did not have different characteristics prior to Sakurai giving them different characteristics. If they did, she would not be an alternate costume... which is why she is not. It seems fairly straight forward. I suppose it is possible that he just randomly decided that she was worthy of a slot based on her popularity (which is why she was a costume in the first place, I digress). However, his quote clearly implies something else. Therefore, the "most logical" answer is the one provided.

Initially, I had considered including Lucina as one of Marth's alternate costumes. After all, she has a close relationship with him in FE:A. In such cases, even if two characters' names and voices differ, as long as they function the same way, I assign them as alternate costumes. The Wii Fit Trainers, Villagers, and Robin are examples of this setup.

However, even though Lucina shares her physical stats and techniques with Marth, the characteristics of their attacks differ. When two such similar characters function in an even slightly different manner, I give them a separate spot on the roster since that will affect battle records and whatnot. In that sense, you could say she was very lucky to join the fray!
When you highlight and underline too such an extreme, it makes me read your response as if a child is screaming at me.

I am aware of the quotation, and could probably recite it to you by now, because you are holding onto it word by word, a tranlation by the way, for dear life.
I suppose you believe Sakurai is straight forward with everything he says, too, that he is completely transparent about what he is doing with the roster and his character choices? That is the only way I can see even attempting to hold so vehemently to the words.

That said, it overlooks the entire premise of his statement- that Chrom was not suitable for a roster spot, and that Lucina was. What would make Lucina worthy of being playable and not Chrom? Please, for the love of God, do not print the highlighted blue font where he states her altered stats. That is the result. If he wanted Chrom to be playable, he easily could have given Chrom that same treatment.

I played all the way through FE:A and really wanted to include a character from that rich cast in Smash Bros. Naturally, I considered adding Chrom to the roster, but the decision wasn't easy by any means.

At the end of the day, Chrom would just end up being another plain-old sword-wielder like Marth and Ike. Compared with other characters, he lacks any unique characteristics.
What we can gather from this is that, as an IP, Lucina had something which Chrom did not, a unique characteristic, because either could have been given altered statistics and been made a clone. Unless the characteristic in staitstics is available and determined in FE:A (it is not), this is indicative of Sakurai showing his Bias towards Lucina, because her unique characteristic is in her IP versus Chrom's Ip, not in her gameplay potential versus Chrom's gameplay potential.
 
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Weeman

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What we can gather from this is that, as an IP, Lucina had something which Chrom did not, a unique characteristic, because either could have been given altered statistics and been made a clone. Unless the characteristic in staitstics is available and determined in FE:A (it is not), this is indicative of Sakurai showing his Bias towards Lucina, because her unique characteristic is in her IP versus Chrom' Ip, not in her gameplay potential versus Chrom's gameplay potential.
The difference between Lucina and Chrom is that Lucina was intended to be an alt. costume, so they probably already had the animations, model and voice clips ready, and just made her a character for the hell of it, after all, all they had to do was alter her mechanics and hitboxes, and reduce her height a bit. Chrom was probably never intended to be a character, not even a costume, at least judging from what Sakurai said.
 
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KageJuin

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When you highlight and underline too such an extreme, it makes me read your response as if a child is screaming at me.

I am aware of the quotation, and could probably recite it to you by now, because you are holding onto it word by word, a tranlation by the way, for dear life.
I suppose you believe Sakurai is straight forward with everything he says, too, that he is completely transparent about what he is doing with the roster and his character choices? That is the only way I can see even attempting to hold so vehemently to the words.

That said, it overlooks the entire premise of his statement- that Chrom was not suitable for a roster spot, and that Lucina was. What would make Lucina worthy of being playable and not Chrom? Please, for the love of God, do not print the highlighted blue font where he states her altered stats. That is the result. If he wanted Chrom to be playable, he easily could have given Chrom that same treatment.



What we can gather from this is that, as an IP, Lucina had something which Chrom did not, a unique characteristic, because either could have been given altered statistics and been made a clone. Unless the characteristic in staitstics is available and determined in FE:A (it is not), this is indicative of Sakurai showing his Bias towards Lucina, because her unique characteristic is in her IP versus Chrom' Ip, not in her gameplay potential versus Chrom's gameplay potential.
early in development chrom was in the game. Lucina as an alt.
He couldn't receive a unique moveset, so Sakurai dropped him. Lucina is still a costume for marth.
When Robin is finished sakurai decides to make Lucina into her own character and removes the tipper to justify this.


That's how she got in. Chrom would have meant he would have to break out new moves and properties, since he was never planned as a costume, and they would have to change Robin's final smash. No can do.

Easier to make Lucina a clone.


try to view it from a development perspective before you deem it odd.
 

The Light Music Club

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early in development chrom was in the game. Lucina as an alt.
He couldn't receive a unique moveset, so Sakurai dropped him
. Lucina is still a costume for marth.
When Robin is finished sakurai decides to make Lucina into her own character and removes the tipper to justify this.


That's how she got in. Chrom would have meant he would have to break out new moves and properties, since he was never planned as a costume, and they would have to change Robin's final smash. No can do.

Easier to make Lucina a clone.


try to view it from a development perspective before you deem it odd.
NO. NO. NO! He was never in the game! He was considered not planned.
 

KageJuin

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NO. NO. NO! He was never in the game! He was considered not planned.
guess I must also usher you o Sakurai's Secret.
click it in my sig.
I am tired of hearing people say he wasn't in the game.
it depends on how you view
'in the game'. He was factually on the internal roster.
I don't know how far he existed after that, but initial roster is where all considered characters go.
No clue when he was cut from the internal roster.

edit:
when doing game design, you make a list of things that go in the game. a list of need to have, want to have and would like to have.

It means in the documents they are noted and considered. It probably also means that the models were made and some trial attacks were created. After a couple iterations these characters may be dropped.

Game design is all about iteration. Especially great Nintendo games. How else d you presume their quality is so high?
 
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The Light Music Club

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guess I must also usher you o Sakurai's Secret.
click it in my sig.
I am tired of hearing people say he wasn't in the game.
it depends on how you view
'in the game'. He was factually on the internal roster.
I don't know how far he existed after that, but initial roster is where all considered characters go.
No clue when he was cut from the internal roster.
I've read that before. But using that as a basis on who is in the game. Means that MANY characters were cut from the game. But we don't think of it that way. Deeming Chrom as unoriginal to not have in the game, means he wasn't in the game. Chrom was planned from the start as part of the final smash. If he was really supposed to be in the game, then Robin would've had a different final smash. When considering the characters he chose Robin OVER Chrom, meaning he didn't plan on putting Chrom in the game. He considered him, not planned him.
 

Scoliosis Jones

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Well, you know...if Snake isn't in the game, you could always show your passion for him in Smash by joining the DLC campaign!!!

#Snake4Smash4

/shamelessadvertising
 

KageJuin

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I've read that before. But using that as a basis on who is in the game. Means that MANY characters were cut from the game. But we don't think of it that way. Deeming Chrom as unoriginal to not have in the game, means he wasn't in the game. Chrom was planned from the start as part of the final smash. If he was really supposed to be in the game, then Robin would've had a different final smash. When considering the characters he chose Robin OVER Chrom, meaning he didn't plan on putting Chrom in the game. He considered him, not planned him.
you failed to read it then.
ok.
He planned to have chrom in the game. He decided he'd be boring so he made Robin instead, putting Chrom in as the final smash not because he was planned as a final smash from he getgo, but because it's the best way to pay homage to him without adding him to the roster.

He did not glance the characters and decide Chrom would be a final smash before he made the internal roster.
what?
 

The Light Music Club

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you failed to read it then.
ok.
He planned to have chrom in the game. He decided he'd be boring so he made Robin instead, putting Chrom in as the final smash not because he was planned as a final smash from he getgo, but because it's the best way to pay homage to him without adding him to the roster.

He did not glance the characters and decide Chrom would be a final smash before he made the internal roster.
what?
No what I meant is, that once Robin was finalized to be a character instead of Chrom, he moved Chrom to the final smash. He thought about it. That doesn't mean he acted on it by putting Chrom's data "in the game" as a playable character. There fore he was never in the game. Chrom wasn't just removed out of the game, since he wasn't in a playable spot to begin with.


Mewtwo was planned for Brawl. We found all that data on him being a playable chaacter. They never put playable data into Chrom, so he was never planned to be playable.
 
D

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You're both wrong.

It's painfully obvious that like how Ike wasn't initially decided upon for Brawl and instead a generic placeholder for a new Fire Emblem character was made (which Ike would fill), there was a similar deal with Smash 4.
Chrom was considered to fill the placeholder, but was decided against over not standing out from the likes of Marth and Ike.
Robin was then considered and was chosen for the role. I.e. actually being planned as a character.

Chrom was never planned to be a character nor was he planned to be a Final Smash from the onset.
 

Scoliosis Jones

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you failed to read it then.
ok.
He planned to have chrom in the game. He decided he'd be boring so he made Robin instead, putting Chrom in as the final smash not because he was planned as a final smash from he getgo, but because it's the best way to pay homage to him without adding him to the roster.

He did not glance the characters and decide Chrom would be a final smash before he made the internal roster.
what?
Pretty much this.

The way this is explained appears to make the most sense. Chrom is the main poster boy of the installment, and to me it seems like a no brainer that Chrom would be thought about and considered/talked about.

This isn't Owain or Tharja. This is Chrom we're talking about.

EDIT: At the very least I think it makes sense that he wouldn't just jump to one character. I think he takes considerable time with characters. Frankly, I think it's tough to say what the "planning phase" entails besides the final roster.
 
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Muster

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Well, you know...if Snake isn't in the game, you could always show your passion for him in Smash by joining the DLC campaign!!!

#Snake4Smash4

/shamelessadvertising
I'd like to check this out.
edit:thanks!
NO. NO. NO! He was never in the game! He was considered not planned.
Are you sure that the translated text explicitly states that he was not planned but only considered? I'm not certain what words where used or what they would mean when translated to english.
 
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KageJuin

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just to clarify, game design is not just theorycrafting.
considering a character is not sitting and thinking.
it's drawing up concepts of attacks.
writing design documents.

at a certain step chrom was dropped because when taking a step back, he would never be as interesting as Robin.


he didn't just sit in a chair and think. He went out and did things.

I guess game development is not well known to most...
 

The Light Music Club

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You're both wrong.

It's painfully obvious that like how Ike wasn't initially decided upon for Brawl and instead a generic placeholder for a new Fire Emblem character was made (which Ike would fill), there was a similar deal with Smash 4.
Chrom was considered to fill the placeholder, but was decided against over not standing out from the likes of Marth and Ike.
Robin was then considered and was chosen for the role. I.e. actually being planned as a character.

Chrom was never planned to be a character nor was he planned to be a Final Smash from the onset.
I'm sorry. What I meant was once, Robin was decided on, they planned Chrom as the final smash. I didn't mean it as in, Sakurai after seeing Chrom immediately thought "He needs to be a final smash." I meant it in as he was never planned to be a character he was only considered. The only time Chrom was planned to be in this game was as a Final Smash. Once Sakurai decided on Robin, he planned putting in Chrom as a final Smash. I'm probably not articulating myself well. I apologize for any further confusion.

just to clarify, game design is not just theorycrafting.
considering a character is not sitting and thinking.
it's drawing up concepts of attacks.
writing design documents.

at a certain step chrom was dropped because when taking a step back, he would never be as interesting as Robin.


he didn't just sit in a chair and think. He went out and did things.

I guess game development is not well known to most...
I understand this. But that still isn't the same as actually having the character in the game.

Planning and considering are two different things.

"Naturally, I considered adding Chrom to the roster.." that means he never did add him to the roster, but he thought about it.
 
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