Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
It appears that you are using ad block :'(
Hey, we get it. However this website is run by and for the community... and it needs ads in order to keep running.
Please disable your adblock on Smashboards, or go premium to hide all advertisements and this notice. Alternatively, this ad may have just failed to load. Woops!
The moment the character is on the initial roster, and has been tinkered with to come up with a moveset, means that he was planned as a character.
The whole idea of a design document/internal roster is for planning purposes.
planning and considering are different, but when compared to Japanese culture, considering means more than just thinking about it.
even more-so when it comes to game design.
I won't ever agree with your notion of just thinking about Chrom. A deliberate amount of work went into every character. Every nuance and detail was considered carefully, different mockups being drawn probably. Maybe assets were created to facilitate this.
Doesn't mean it was in a beta build, but I bet they were in alpha builds.
Just because data is not on the final version, doesn't mean it wasn't removed. The only reason forbidden 7 are on the disc is because they spent time polishing rather than removing useless info from the disc. This is the reason older games had many many cheats, since these were meant for the devs first.
The moment the character is on the initial roster, and has been tinkered with to come up with a moveset, means that he was planned as a character.
The whole idea of a design document/internal roster is for planning purposes.
planning and considering are different, but when compared to Japanese culture, considering means more than just thinking about it.
even more-so when it comes to game design.
I won't ever agree with your notion of just thinking about Chrom. A deliberate amount of work went into every character. Every nuance and detail was considered carefully, different mockups being drawn probably. Maybe assets were created to facilitate this.
Doesn't mean it was in a beta build, but I bet they were in alpha builds.
Just because data is not on the final version, doesn't mean it wasn't removed. The only reason forbidden 7 are on the disc is because they spent time polishing rather than removing useless info from the disc. This is the reason older games had many many cheats, since these were meant for the devs first.
Yeah, that's alright if you don't agree. I guess we just view the idea of "being in the game" differently. But since we both won't be budging let's just drop the topic. I hope there aren't any coarse feelings from this argument.
So......Pac-Man was planned for Brawl. As were Miis. And Villager.
Dozens of NES characters were planned for Melee (with a handful being directly identified as examples).
There are cases like Dixie Kong, who was planned, but had to be axed since the concept (Diddy/Dixie tag-team) couldn't be done, and then there are cases like Chrom and the above, who were considered, but brushed off for various reasons that turned Sakurai off to them.
It couldn't be any more simpler than this:
-> New Fire Emblem character placeholder made.
-> Chrom considered to fill placeholder. Denied due to having nothing unique to offer.
-> Robin considered to fill placeholder. Approved due to having much to offer.
No amount of "knowledge" about how game design works necessary.
So......Pac-Man was planned for Brawl. As were Miis. And Villager.
Dozens of NES characters were planned for Melee (with a handful being directly identified as examples).
Ah good.
Miis probably, as was villager.
Pacman I doubt it, since Sakurai got a talk mid development and kind of decided on 'no'
he turned around and gave us all three this time, though he viewed all three as "not having a useful moveset".
planned means more the character conceived in the initial stages of development.
Just like Lucina wasn't planned.
Wolf was planned for Melee. you can see him in the intro. Sakurai ran out of time and decided he'd make him a clone. He then though they would look too similar and went with Falco.
Ah good.
Miis probably, as was villager.
Pacman I doubt it, since Sakurai got a talk mid development and kind of decided on 'no'
he turned around and gave us all three this time, though he viewed all three as "not having a useful moveset".
planned means more the character conceived in the initial stages of development.
Just like Lucina wasn't planned.
Wolf was planned for Melee. you can see him in the intro. Sakurai ran out of time and decided he'd make him a clone. He then though they would look too similar and went with Falco.
Pacman was stated to have been considered for Brawl.
There are definitely dozens of characters for each game who have been identified as 'considered' for each game.
Metwo has been outright stated to be 'considered' for this game.
Pacman was stated to have been considered for Brawl.
There are definitely dozens of characters for each game who have been identified as 'considered' for each game.
Metwo has been outright stated to be 'considered' for this game.
yeah, but as I remember from an interview from Sakurai, he said he waved it away because he was very busy working on the game and thought: how can pacman work as just a circle with a mouth?
he laughed it off and said he made it in this time.
mid development consideration is very different from preproduction.
Ah good.
Miis probably, as was villager.
Pacman I doubt it, since Sakurai got a talk mid development and kind of decided on 'no'
he turned around and gave us all three this time, though he viewed all three as "not having a useful moveset".
planned means more the character conceived in the initial stages of development.
Just like Lucina wasn't planned.
Don't be contradictory. You say Pac-Man was "kind of decided on 'no'", yet Chrom was dealt the same exact way.
-Pac-Man was seen as farfetched due to Sakurai imagining the incomplete pizza shape style foremost.
-Chrom was seen as pointless due Sakurai seeing nothing unique about him from actually playing through Awakening.
Robin on the other hand, Sakurai saw potential in. Whereas nothing came to mind on Chrom, the ideas for Robin came flowing through his mind.
Wolf was planned for Melee. you can see him in the intro. Sakurai ran out of time and decided he'd make him a clone. He then though they would look too similar and went with Falco.
Now you're just speculating out your bum. Wolf being in the intro holds no bearing on Wolf being planned for the game. Or what, you're going to tell me Samurai Goroh and Ridley were planned too, when absolutely no evidence supports it?
As for the (unverified) statement about Wolf initially thought about as the Fox clone but Falco was decided on for multiple reasons, that's more or less the same as what happened to Chrom.
Wolf was the first idea, but decided against for particular reasoning. Falco was chosen instead.
Neither were really planned anyway; the clones were all last-minute roster buffs not part of the initial roster plan.
Now you're just speculating out your bum. Wolf being in the intro holds no bearing on Wolf being planned for the game. Or what, you're going to tell me Samurai Goroh and Ridley were planned too, when absolutely no evidence supports it?
It's clear now that you're using cednym's info in regards to Melee's development.
While I personally believe his info to be accurate, he never said that Dedede was dropped for the clones.
He said that Dedede was a back-up plan for if Sakurai could not get Intelligent System's approval to include Marth.
He said that the development time used for the clones could have been used instead for a single unique character, but the idea was to give the roster more characters in a short span of time.
THESE DO NOT OVERLAP.
He got the approval to use Marth, so no need for the back-up Dedede plan. He wasn't looking to make a single unique character within the short span of time, so Dedede was never brought to light then either.
Sakurai didn't have trouble with a moveset for Villager, he felt that an Animal Crossing character did not fit as a fighter (same with Nintendogs). He stated it was possible to have a character fight using a shovel and bug net, though.
I knew that was going to be your comeback hahahaha
sad, sad, sad.
Chrom was not proposed mid development.
Chrom and Pac-man had radically different circumstances.
Same goes for Chrom and Lucina.
If you fail to see this or refuse to use logic, then so be it.
I feel like you want to disagree for the sake of disagreeing, while it's all laid out before you neatly.
Mid development characters only get added if they are clones, since the team is usually pretty busy with other parts of the game according to their initial planning.
If you choose not to understand this, go ahead. My point is clear as crystal by now
Mid development characters only get added if they are clones, eh?
You can take your "logic" and shove it where the sun don't shine. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about at this point, and the fact you feel the need to talk down to me like I'm some sort of idiot for not following your crazy train of thought is not amusing.
the same way every pokemon is supposed to be in sm4ash according to the pokemon trailer? probably.
I find it funny when people forget that Melee did not have all the content it was planned to get.
same for Brawl.
same for most any video game out there.
Game development is about planning big, and making tons of cuts to meet the budget/time constraint.
Last minute additions usually only come in the form of low effort/cost things, like clones. Those were not planed for ofcourse, except some cases where a planned character is just made into a clone just to have him in. Ganondorf comes to mind.
Sakurai has explicitly stated that every Pokemon that appeared in Greninja's trailer would appear in some form in Smash. Many people came to similar conclusion prior to this announcement based on how many of the specific Pokemon shown were already known Poke Ball Pokemon.
The scene from the Melee intro consists of a number of random Pokemon, may of which make absolutely no appearance in the game at all. Unless you mean to suggest that every single one of those Pokemon were planned as Poke Ball Pokemon, put into the opening cinematic, and then scrapped during development, there isn't much of a correlation between the Melee intro and Greninja's trailer.
I seem to have missed the Sceptile discussion, from all those in here angry that he actually has a greater probability, and a lot more going to him than simply completing the holy type trinity.
I have already posted in length about just how prominent Pokemon is and why it is absurd to think it should not get high levels of representation, second to nothing but Mario, and only Mario when you consider the entire Mario universe. I will provide a quotation here afterwards if it is necessary (or a?)
I believe I will begin with Pokemon's character representation, and the general likelihood that, whether you are inclined to believe it or not, precedence dictates we are going to have at least one additional pokemon Newcomer.
By fact alone, we had two newcomers in SSB64, two more in SSBM, and then FOUR MORE in SSBB. I will not go as far as to say the representation going from 2, 4, 6, means we are likely to get 8, but the fact that we have never gotten just a single new Pokemon representative for this series would be strange after getting four in the previous game, with two being likely cuts. The fact that we have had two generations leads me to believe we will have at least two newcomers, and the size of this franchise as a whole (refer to my previous post, which I will hopefully ) indicates it is worthy of a vast amount of representation, if for no other reason than to simply appease Game Freak and the Millions of fans it alone brings Smash.
Now, if you want to debate who that second newcomer would be, absolutely, that is the fun! I'm here to point out some of what Sceptile has going for him as the front runner of those other plausible options.
WHAT DOES SCEPTILE HAVE GOING FOR HIM?
Many people seem to keep coming to the conclusion that he only completes the grass-fire-water type trinity... and then also belittling the vast role said trinity plays in Pokemon and the Pokemon games.
* To quickly back track, As for this ...this type trinity is something that Sakurai has brought into play in the first place. It is impossible to assert that Pokemon Trainer was a one shot idea and fans are the only ones who think it is important.
**The heavily advertised mechanics of rock-paper-scissor have been used to introduce players to the mechanics of battling in pokemon since generation one, and in short represent the entire battle mechanics of the universe to which the games are from. This triangle, also used in marketing, always emphasizes three types and three starters. When a new generation is out, one of the ways Game Freak displays the new generation is by showcasing who the new starters will be; without fail it is one of the first things we learn. The types do not only represent the balance in fighting,but also the advertising of the franchise itself.
Well first of all, we talk with the Pokemon company. What’s the hot Pokemon? What Pokemon are in the movies right now? And really do a lot of research on that front.
For example, X and Y are coming out – of course, we haven’t done any market research because they’re not out yet, but we look at the animated series or movies and anything like that and again, find out which ones are going to be central to any of conversations in Pokemon going forward.
Sceptile is the Pokemon Ash has, FYI. He also has Charizard and Froakie (who will evolve into Greninja). Sceptile has been given a lot of character in the show, with hardships over learning moves, isolating, and attraction to other pokemon.
Grovyle, of the Sceptile evolution line, was also a prominently featured in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, one of the main spinoffs of Pokemon's handheld games which is not a part of the RPG.
But it’s not just that – going back to just what we talked about, what’s unique about them? Where do they fit in with the rest of everything else? What do they have? It’s a combination of those things.
We have recently seen Sakurai talk about the first character who can heal while hurting someone else, Robin, using the move Nosferatu, implying this is a technique someone else may use.
As a grass type Pokemon, and taking over a common trope in RPG's, Sceptile could easily take on the role of a healer, and heal himself while damaging others.
Given that he is a type of Dinosaur/Lizard, it would be evident that his moveset involve wall climbing, or otherwise unique ways of holding onto ledges. He could be the first character in Sm4sh to use grass based attacks, which are common in RPGs but have yet to make much appearance in Smash, or he could be a grappling character. He has plenty of signature moves, most iconically his leaf blades.
Honestly, for originality, he is lacking nothing, and is one of the easiest characters to have twelve different original movesets which he easily inspires, with an easy array of Seeds, Powders, Vines, Leafs, and Solar attacks which make him too variant to mess with.
In short, adding Sceptile does not simply add one Pokemon, it allows the entire franchise to be represented in a multitude of other ways- it allows each Pokemon to represent more than just itself, and how popular each given one may be, but allows the whole to stand for something.
Sakurai has expressed devout interest in trying to remain loyal to representing the feel of characters correctly, as well as the feel of a franchise- to do this with Pokemon, he cannot simply have a few monsters of the greater whole that just exist as a few selected of over 700 +.
Adding Sceptile in does not just complete the type trinity, it pays tribute to multiple generations, acknowledges the advertising of the franchise, it gives homage to other games in the series' besides the main RPG, and it rounds out the representation of the Pokemon contestants to actually stand for something other than individual slots in themselves.
Speculation:
As it stands right now, Greninja was chosen because he... looked cool and could potentially be popular? I find that highly suspect to any analysis someone in the crowd could put out. If Sakurai were not limiting himself to starting roster Pokemon, why would he have chosen Greninja? He has gone on record to state that he liked the Ninja aspect, and we already have many of those characteristics in Sheik- if he wanted just a plain cool looking pokemon that was popular with the fans, he had a plethora of other options he could have chosen from, unless he was going for something a bit deeper than just representing Greninja alone, and being nudged heavily to present him by Game Freak, of course.
Additionally, let us not kid ourselves to believe the Gen 3 remakes were not already nearly complete a long time ago. I'd personally be shocked if Nintendo representatives were not fighting to get information to Sakurai in hopes to sway him to add their characters into Smash bros (as we have seen, third parties do it, so why would Nintendo first parties not give him as much info as possible, it is the best advertising they could get). I get beside the point, though! If you want proof as to how clear it was the remakes have been planned for a long time, please ask and I will cite more information from the Sceptile thread.
I would argue Blaziken having his Mega Evolution last year just sets up for the fact that Sceptile and Marshy are now the posterboys of these remakes with there megas, and that Blaziken's mega further dictates how aware they were of these remakes long ago.
**If anyone can direct me to my Pokemon post about 20 pages back, please let me know. This thread moves so quickly I cannot find it**
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a recent interview where Sakurai stated that Robin was his first choice for a Fire Emblem newcomer, and then after deciding between Lucina and Chrom he ultimately went with Lucina?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a recent interview where Sakurai stated that Robin was his first choice for a Fire Emblem newcomer, and then after deciding between Lucina and Chrom he ultimately went with Lucina?
Sakurai chose between Chrom and Robin. Robin had more potential in his moveset, so he got the nod.
Lucina was an alternate costume for Marth, that they decided to give a different property to with her sword. As such, they realized that might affect battle records, and thus she got her own slot.
The question of whether Chrom or Dixie or whoever were considered really doesnt matter. They didnt make into those respective games, and if they have merit, they might make it into the next installment (SSB5 for Chrom, SSB4 for Dixie). But its most unaffected by their development in the previous installment.
Also kojima never once said that he didnt talk with sakurai, he said that he "didnt know since hes not working on that game". I dont know how many times ive seen that worded wrong already, but i have to correct it everytime i see it.
I don't believe we're going to get anything Smash-related out of the Hyrule Warriors Direct, not everything Nintendo does has to circle around Smash somehow. It's going to be about Hyrule Warriors, and that's it.
As for the discussion up above, neither Pac-Man (Brawl) or Chrom were ever planned, that'd mean they were actually intended to be in the games at some point, they were considered if only briefly but were quickly flipped off.
Potentially the King of Evil, as a character in Hyrule Warriors.
A Hyrule Warriors focused Nintendo Direct will not feature content from any other video game. You know, just like every other specific game Nintendo Direct ever released.
I guess this debunks the notion of a Smash Direct or a general Nintendo Direct next week. Still, here's hoping I finally get Saria for Hyrule Warriors. :D
That said, with a Hyrule Warriors Direct next week, its possible we'll get Ganondorf announced on the website.
Potentially the King of Evil, as a character in Hyrule Warriors.
A Hyrule Warriors focused Nintendo Direct will not feature content from any other video game. You know, just like every other specific game Nintendo Direct ever released.
Ganondorf will probably at least have to wait until Hyrule Warrior's actual release I imagine, the only possible Ganondorf confirmation we're getting on Monday is his role in Hyrule Warriors itself imo.
Ganondorf will probably at least have to wait until Hyrule Warrior's actual release I imagine, the only possible Ganondorf confirmation we're getting on Monday is his role in Hyrule Warriors itself imo.
#1 Robin- Favorite (realistic) smash character from my favorite Ninetnedo series. Real Awesome Dude.
#2 Rosalina- Purley for her moveset, I love pupeeteer characters
#3 Megaman- Would've preferred X but I love the Megaman (X) series and he's a cool character to have
#4 Geninja- I like pokemon a lot, and while he's no my first choice, definitely a solid choice
#5 Villager- I played some animal crossing, and he seems like a cool little goofy dude
#6 Lucina- Love Fire Emblem, wasn't especially high on Luncia as a character, plus clone, so middle of the pack
#7 Pac-Man- He's okay, seems unique enough, classic pac-man is well classic
#8 Little Mac- Never played punch-out but the gimped fighter is a fun fighting game trope so meh
#9 Platenua- Don't like Kid Icarus, don't care about platenua, but is better than the Wii crew
#10 Mii's (I guess) honestly these last two could goeither way. Dumb character, waste of space, generic trope movesets, I really don't like them
#11 Wii Fit Trainer- Even dumber character, brings nothing to game, is kind of creepy, wish she wasn't in the game at all
.png){kind=spacer}
?)
