Character Discussion Thread

[Scoliosis Jones]

There is a difference between hating a character and detracting a character.


It depends on the subjective interpretation of the individual, I suppose. I would objectively assert that both are retro characters, even Mario is a retro character. One does not simply cease to be a retro character; however, if one interprets a character as recent and therefore not pertaining exclusively to "retro status" they might take the more predominant interpretation and fallaciously claim that the character is no longer retro.

Sakurai's definition (which is the one that matters with Smash) is a character/series that has not had a new game in the series for awhile. In that sense, Mario is not retro, and at the time of Pit's inclusion, he WAS retro because he hadn't had a game in a long time, since the NES days.

Retro implies something from the old days. The original Mario games are retro, but Mario himself isn't really retro. He's become modern and pretty much always has been. It's an oxymoron of sorts.

@ Kenith I can see where you're coming from, but that's not why he was picked. Obviously, if you're the main protagonist of a game, you're probably going to get in, especially in a game like Punch-Out!!. But I think it was more of the popularity and gameplay ideas that had Sakurai liking Little Mac.

 

[ElPanandero]

- Tetra
- Vaati
- Ganon
- Midna

I would be happy with any of those characters, but I don't find them likely.
Ghirahim is only my most wanted because of his undeniable moveset potential, and because I feel confident in supporting him more.

Fair enough, guess I missed all the ones who weren't Ghiriam

 

[Morbi]

I don't get how it's more accurate. Characters aren't necessarily added simply to "represent" a game. They inherently do, but that isn't really the purpose of their selection.

When people say, "We should get X character to be a ______ rep", it makes me cringe because that's not how characters are selected unless Sakurai is actually looking for something like that. Like if in the next Smash he decides to look into retro Fire Emblem and wants something from there, then that's a little different.

However, the usage of the word "representative" gets thrown around aimlessly in my opinion.

You addressed your own concern...

Yes, but it's still the principle that Ganondorf (in his Gerudo-human form) does deserve a slot in Smash, and can have his own moveset.

Ganon would be to Ganondorf what Toon Link is to Link. A different version of the same character from a different point in the Zelda series, that deserves it's own slot, and can co-exist with the original.


It would still be Beast Ganon, from Twilight Princess.
I'm pretty sure it was implied somewhere that Beast Ganon is seperate from Pig Ganon.

Either way, Ganon can be his own character with Beast Ganon being a Final Smash.
They look completely different.
If Link has the Master Sword, does that mean that Toon Link has to have his normal Outset Island Sword?

He COULD have his own move-set, or he could have a slightly altered version of his previous move-set. One might assert that there is apt precedent to support such an outlandish claim!

 

[Mega Bidoof]

I'm not worried about Ghirahim threatening Ganon's chances. Relevancy is a bull argument, this isn't Melee anymore, where Ocarina of Time=The entire Zelda franchise. Rosalina at least appeared in a couple spinoff games and a main Mario title, AND she represents the Galaxy series, so she had at least a bit of a resume to make a name for herself. Ghirahim is a notable oneshot villain, whose claim to fame is being somewhat responsible for an objectively important game in the Zelda timeline, and in being in a Zelda crossover. Relevancy =/= recency.

Don't forget popularity too.
That is what also got Rosalina her slot on the roster.

 

[ElPanandero]

Well, no one is asking for a Bandana Der moveset without a spear... So, don't know why BD's originality without one matters to you...

I don't think I said that,If I did it was a mistake. I meant that he has to use the spear, and because he has to use the spear, that limits what he can do in my opinion, because he's handcuffed to the spear and I haven't seen him do anything that doesn't involve the spear. What I meant in the post you quoted was that BD and his spear is like Mario and jumping, but just jumping and nothing else he does.

 

[Morbi]

Sakurai's definition (which is the one that matters with Smash) is a character/series that has not had a new game in the series for awhile. In that sense, Mario is not retro, and at the time of Pit's inclusion, he WAS retro because he hadn't had a game in a long time, since the NES days.

Retro implies something from the old days. The original Mario games are retro, but Mario himself isn't really retro. He's become modern and pretty much always has been. It's an oxymoron of sorts.

No offense, but I do not give a flying **** about Sakurai's definition. You are correct, his subjective definition is the most pertinent to Smash speculation and perhaps the only relevant definition; however, that does not alter the notion that characters are retro. It only serves to indicate that Sakurai is delusional or he does not understand the context of the word.

 

[JaidynReiman]

Yes, but it's still the principle that Ganondorf (in his Gerudo-human form) does deserve a slot in Smash, and can have his own moveset.

Ganon would be to Ganondorf what Toon Link is to Link. A different version of the same character from a different point in the Zelda series, that deserves it's own slot, and can co-exist with the original.


It would still be Beast Ganon, from Twilight Princess.
I'm pretty sure it was implied somewhere that Beast Ganon is seperate from Pig Ganon.

Either way, Ganon can be his own character with Beast Ganon being a Final Smash.
They look completely different.
If Link has the Master Sword, does that mean that Toon Link has to have his normal Outset Island Sword?

I disagree with this. I don't think Ganon deserves his own slot and I don't think we should have yet ANOTHER form of an existing Zelda character. Why should we have six Zelda characters when only half of them are ACTUALLY separate characters? Besides, Ganon is just fine as Ganondorf's Final Smash. Just use the original Ganon instead of Beast Ganon.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

Don't forget popularity too.
That is what also got Rosalina her slot on the roster.

As I said, Rosalina has a couple of games under her belt, not counting spinoffs. And she represents a whole subseries of the franchise, Super Mario Galaxy. If that didn't cinch it, Super Mario 3D World did.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

He COULD have his own move-set, or he could have a slightly altered version of his previous move-set. One might assert that there is apt precedent to support such an outlandish claim!

Personally, and I'm probably the only person who thinks this, I think it would be cool of Ganondorf gets a completely new moveset, and Black Shadow takes over his old one.

Just think about it. A dark Captain Falcon clone? That literally fits Black Shadow perfectly.

 

[Gold_Jacobson]

I don't think I said that,If I did it was a mistake. I meant that he has to use the spear, and because he has to use the spear, that limits what he can do in my opinion, because he's handcuffed to the spear and I haven't seen him do anything that doesn't involve the spear. What I meant in the post you quoted was that BD and his spear is like Mario and jumping, but just jumping and nothing else he does.

K. If you really don't think he can't have a moveset, then I guess you don't.

 

[Morbi]

I disagree with this. I don't think Ganon deserves his own slot and I don't think we should have yet ANOTHER form of an existing Zelda character. Why should we have six Zelda characters when only half of them are ACTUALLY separate characters? Besides, Ganon is just fine as Ganondorf's Final Smash. Just use the original Ganon instead of Beast Ganon.

Honestly, if Ganondorf "deserves" his own slot, I find it odd that Ganon does not "deserve" his own slot as he has more prominence, prevalence, and I suppose relevance. I do; however, agree that he is fine as Ganondorf's Final Smash, but if we are measuring merit, Ganon has much more observable credentials.

 

[ElPanandero]

K. If you really don't think he can't have a moveset, then I guess you don't.

Sorry friend, maybe he'll get in and prove me wrong and have a great moveset

 

[Vickand]

What about Bubbles as a retro representative? I think she can be a very unique character

 

[Spazzy_D]

Eh, I personally don't think Zelda actually NEEDS another character. Not opposed to it, but not something that would overly excite me regardless of who it was.

 

[Kenith]

Eh, I personally don't think Zelda actually NEEDS another character. Not opposed to it, but not something that would overly excite me regardless of who it was.

I agree to that, mainly because no series "needs" another character, except arguably for maybe Metroid.

Link, Ganondorf, Zelda represent the overall series just fine. But you know what? That's boring. I like Zelda, I want a new character from it.

 

[Morbi]

Personally, and I'm probably the only person who thinks this, I think it would be cool of Ganondorf gets a completely new moveset, and Black Shadow takes over his old one.

Just think about it. A dark Captain Falcon clone? That literally fits Black Shadow perfectly.

Indeed. I believe that this method is probably the way to satisfy most (potential) Ganondorf mains. It satisfies Legend of Zelda fans who wish for Ganondorf to be properly represented, it enables more to labor under the prospect of actually using him, and there is a golden-parachute for current Ganondorf mains that enjoy his current move-set, myself included. Not only that, but Black Shadow is my most wanted newcomer whereas Ganondorf is my favorite video-game character, my favorite Legend of Zelda character, and my favorite Smash character.

You are not alone, friend.

 

[Spazzy_D]

I agree to that, mainly because no series "needs" another character, except arguably for maybe Metroid.

Link, Ganondorf, Zelda represent the overall series just fine. But you know what? That's boring. I like Zelda, I want a new character from it.

I'm not really a big Donkey Kong or Donkey Kong Country fan. I played a lot of Donkey Kong '94 and a decent amount of the first two DKC games when they came out, and I liked Returns, but I have no real attachment to the series or characters.

That being said, I think if any series "needs" another rep it's DK.

 

[HugoBoss]

I'll probably refrain from using the word"REP" for now on..
Bandana Dee would be nice, as I liked the character's reappearance in RTD and his recent return to the franchise
My issue is that I believe that the current Kirby cast is enough, while more newcomers is great, there are others I would rather have than Bandana Dee. My opinion on the character doesn't reflect his importance in the Kirby franchise however, many Kirby fans exaggerate and overstate his importance in the franchise. I like him, but he is not that important. While I disagree with the notion of B.Dee lacking in moveset potential, as RTD provided an ideal set of moves. Coincidently, my problem is that B.Dee's attacks are already there for him, which leaves little room for a truly creative move set. I don't just want his attacks ripped from another game. I also don't believe that being a spear user is a valid reason for his inclusion. It means nothing. He has to offer more than just his finesse of using spears.

 

[PlTe]

I feel that if Zelda got a new character, it should be a villain. But if it's a villain, it should be someone to rival Toon Link. Vaati would be a good one, since he's been a recurring villain in the franchise.

 

[Morbi]

I'm not really a big Donkey Kong or Donkey Kong Country fan. I played a lot of Donkey Kong '94 and a decent amount of the first two DKC games when they came out, and I liked Returns, but I have no real attachment to the series or characters.

That being said, I think if any series "needs" another rep it's DK.

Nah, if any series "needs" another representative, it is Legend of Zelda. I suppose the Triforce is satisfying enough for the casual crowd; however, I do feel as though it would be ideal to have a character without a Triforce illuminated on the back of their hand.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Sorry for all Takamaru supporters...
BUT MACH RIDER'S STILL GOT A CHANCE BABEEEEEEEEEH!!!

You here this Sak, do this if you really love the character so much! Just seeing this guy get confirmed would definitely make up for that damn Unchained rumor being false. But for the love of God, please do not give him the Bonus Rider outfit.

I'm a bit worried about Duck Hunt Dog now. Even though he's on the lower end of my requested characters list, his deconfirmation would still be big let down for me. My body would be ready, but my mind would be shattered. He just makes 45 flavors of sense as a retro addition.

I would bust a nut if that troll gets away with being an Assist Trophy instead of playable. It just wouldn't be the same if you can't harm him or harm others with him.

 

[Spazzy_D]

Nah, if any series "needs" another representative, it is Legend of Zelda. I suppose the Triforce is satisfying enough for the casual crowd; however, I do feel as though it would be ideal to have a character without a Triforce illuminated on the back of their hand.

I disagree with your opinion!

People honestly don't give DK the props he deserves.

SNES
Donkey Kong Country - 9.3 million
A Link to the Past - 4.61 million

Wii
Donkey Kong Country Returns - 6.18 million
Skyward Sword - 3.77 million








(Twilight Princess - 6.97 million... but ignore this as I'm trying to make a biased point!)

 

[sbdipp]

http://ssb4dojo.com/post/93123821076/rumor-mill-qa-leaker

Figured I'd drop this here if you want a real laugher....

 

[Spazzy_D]

http://ssb4dojo.com/post/93123821076/rumor-mill-qa-leaker

Figured I'd drop this here if you want a real laugher....

I'm tired of leaks giving Shulk terrible move sets and gimmicks.

Also yay for all the Mother reps being from the same game!

 

[Mega Bidoof]

I disagree with this.

Let me address each separate part of this post.

I don't think Ganon deserves his own slot

He is the original villain of the franchise.
He is even arguably more important than Ganondorf. Don't get me wrong Ganondorf shouldn't be cut. He is already an established character in Smash.

and I don't think we should have yet ANOTHER form of an existing Zelda character. Why should we have six Zelda characters when only half of them are ACTUALLY separate characters?

Have you played a Zelda game before? Not trying to sound like an *ss over here, but I just want to know if you ever actually played a Zelda game before.

If you did, you might notice that there are no major characters besides the big 3. The only arguable ones are Impa and (maybe) Tingle (only because he is recurring.
And Tingle is already deconfirmed and will return as an assist.

Impa on the other hand, has a decent chance.

Back to Ganon, besides them, nobody is recurring.

That's why, having transformations and different incarnations of those 3 characters would work as new characters. Instead of just having the big 3, only representing the more realistic games like Twilight Princess, we can have different forms of those characters to represent different branches of the series.

Wait a minute......
HOLY ****!

While typing about how different forms could represent different parts of the series, I realized something that could potentially increase Ganon's chances!

You know how the Zelda timeline splits into 3 at the end of Ocarina of time? Those 3 timelines were the branches I was just talking about.

Let's look at the characters we have so far. The Big 3 all represent the series as a whole by themselves, and each have part of the Triforce.

Link - Courage
Zelda - Wisdom
Ganondorf - Power


What about Shiek and Toon Link?
Each represent one of the timeline splits.

Shiek - The Child Timeline. Shiek (Zelda) had the wisdom to help Link on his journey.

Toon Link - The Adult Timeline. Toon Link had the courage to go out on an adventure, with no experience, to save his sister. He also had courage to defeat Ganondorf, because it was his destiny

But there is one timeline left. The Decline Timeline. This is where Ganon ties in.

Ganon - The Decline Timeline. Ganondorf has the power to defeat Link, and take over Hyrule, in his new monstrous form.


We have the 3 main characters, and a transformation of each, each representing a different part of the series

Perfect representation.

Besides, Ganon is just fine as Ganondorf's Final Smash. Just use the original Ganon instead of Beast Ganon.

Ganondorf has only turned into Beast Ganon, not Pig Ganon.

#notcanon

As I said, Rosalina has a couple of games under her belt, not counting spinoffs. And she represents a whole subseries of the franchise, Super Mario Galaxy. If that didn't cinch it, Super Mario 3D World did.

To be fair, Mario gets a new game like, every year.

Zelda gets a big one maybe every 2 years at best.

So there's more chance for Rosalina to appear than there is for Ghirahim to.

 

[The Light Music Club]

http://ssb4dojo.com/post/93123821076/rumor-mill-qa-leaker

Figured I'd drop this here if you want a real laugher....

Mother 3 loses its only character and gains two stages....hmm

What about Bubbles as a retro representative? I think she can be a very unique character

I don't know what Bubbles does. What does she do??

 

[Louie G.]

Yay, new roster time. It was supposed to have Takamaru on it but we know how that turned out...

I know I said I'll stick with my old one but I did some thinking and rearranging and I got this.
55 characters seems fair.

 

[ElPanandero]

Mother 3 loses its only character and gains two stages....hmm




I don't know what Bubbles does. What does she do??

Is bubblles the little pink guy who throws herself/himself around and uses poles to change direction?

 

[CrusherMania1592]

http://ssb4dojo.com/post/93123821076/rumor-mill-qa-leaker

Figured I'd drop this here if you want a real laugher....

Yeah...not buying any rumors or leaks until I see the final roster

 

[Kenith]

Yay, new roster time. It was supposed to have Takamaru on it but we know how that turned out...
I know I said I'll stick with my old one but I did some thinking and rearranging and I got this.
55 characters seems fair.

55 characters with Dark Pit and no Ghirahim?
For shame, Louie G. You had him on your roster, like, two days ago.

 

[Morbi]

Yay, new roster time. It was supposed to have Takamaru on it but we know how that turned out...
View attachment 19712
I know I said I'll stick with my old one but I did some thinking and rearranging and I got this.
55 characters seems fair.

After the Gematsu leak was contested... all of the cool kids expect a roster above 50 characters, eh?

Regardless, I see Pittoo on the roster... 10/10.

 

[Louie G.]

55 characters with Dark Pit and no Ghirahim?
For shame, Louie G. You had him on your roster, like, two days ago.

I kept it at 55. If I bumped it to 56, Ghirahim would totally be there.

I think a clone or two will happen, and Dark Pit is a pretty likely one in my book.

 

[Kenith]

I kept it at 55. If I bumped it to 56, Ghirahim would totally be there.

I think a clone or two will happen, and Dark Pit is a pretty likely one in my book.

I know, that's the problem, how does Dark Pit get a pass over Ghirahim?

 

[Mega Bidoof]

Yay, new roster time. It was supposed to have Takamaru on it but we know how that turned out...
View attachment 19712
I know I said I'll stick with my old one but I did some thinking and rearranging and I got this.
55 characters seems fair.

I'm pretty sure that the Mii fighters are going to be one slot.
When you press it, it opens up a sub-menu, where you choose what a Mii that was already customized and set up in advance. (You would choose what class it would be when you set it up). There could also be a "Set New Mii" button or something under the list of Miis, that let's you set up a new Mii (whose settings you could change again later on from the customization menu with everyone else).

Besides that, on your main 52 slot roster, I'd swap out Dark Pit for a Zelda newcomer.

 

[Louie G.]

I know, that's the problem, how does Dark Pit get a pass over Ghirahim?

Because he's easy to make, I suppose. He's near identical to Pit, but added dark effects to his attacks plus improved aerial game and strength would make Dark Pit another Lucina-ish clone. Same moves, different playstyle.

Ghirahim is very possible, but I could easily see Sakurai skipping over him too. I'm kind of 50/50 on the matter, don't be surprised to see him back on my roster soon. Sakurai may put his effort into a de-cloned Ganondorf instead.

 

[Kenith]

Because he's easy to make, I suppose. He's near identical to Pit, but added dark effects to his attacks plus improved aerial game and strength would make Dark Pit another Lucina-ish clone. Same moves, different playstyle.
Ghirahim is very possible, but I could easily see Sakurai skipping over him too. I'm kind of 50/50 on the matter, don't be surprised to see him back on my roster soon. Sakurai may put his effort into a de-cloned Ganondorf instead.

I feel betrayed...

Plus, Sakurai said Lucina was "lucky", and that makes me think we won't get another straight clone.
Plus, at least there's a visual difference between Lucina and Marth. Dark Pit is designed to look like a literally palette swap of Pit. It would be like making Dark Link playable.

 

[ElPanandero]

I feel betrayed...

Plus, Sakurai said Lucina was "lucky", and that makes me think we won't get another straight clone.
Plus, at least there's a visual difference between Lucina and Marth. Dark Pit is designed to look like a literally palette swap of Pit. It would be like making Dark Link playable.

Dark Link for smash!

 

[AncientTobacco]

My new roster:

Goodbye, Takamaru.

 

[Spazzy_D]

I feel betrayed...

Plus, Sakurai said Lucina was "lucky", and that makes me think we won't get another straight clone.
Plus, at least there's a visual difference between Lucina and Marth. Dark Pit is designed to look like a literally palette swap of Pit. It would be like making Dark Link playable.

Dark Pit has a lot more character and personality then Dark Link, and is an actual character in his own right. Not that I think he should be his own character, but he stands on his own much more then Dark Link.

 

[Xenorange]

Ghirahim would just be a Yoshi clone.