Character Discussion Thread

[BluePikmin11]

Shulk deserves a spot in the game for what the game accomplishes (I personally think it beats the Mother series by a mile). He's decently unique enough for him to be a character.

Shulk is a very underrated choice I think. He's more likely than many think.

No he's not, there are way more underrated choices in the catalogue than Shulk.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Slightly a bit too stuffed for my liking--while I hope we get 54 movesets, I see ~48 being more likely. I'd recommend some cuts, either from your cast of newcomers or the veterans. Cut three from the following: Krystal/Wolf/Falco, Lip/Takamaru, Shulk, Ike/Chrom, Lucas. I think you've covered the truly necessary newcomers outside of Miis, though. 8.75/10.

I'd say you're a bit too negative on the size of the roster, this game has been in development for longer than Brawl and that's without the SSE taking up more than half of the dev time. This is still less than the amount we got for Brawl, with just 14 newcomers, I really doubt we'd get less than we got with Melee. Sakurai also said that no cuts had been made at one point, so its assumed that everyone from Brawl is at least planned to return, and they have more than enough time. In fact, with Toon Link having been revealed so early, I'm willing to bet that every character has already at least been put in the game and they're just tweaking them as they go. And the Miis aren't necessary, though that may come down to personal opinion. I'm still of the stance that the E3 leak was fake, or at least not completely true.

 

[TumblrFamous]

For roster size, I would say anywhere between 48-52 characters. My roster has 47 slots, and 51 total characters.

 

[Arcanir]

I don't think Toon Link's return means that everyone's in the game, we don't know how Sakurai treated the character this time around. For him, he may've considered Toon Link a "higher priority" character then the others and thus, had him finished before the majority.

Even ignoring that, there's still the chance that some characters are lower then him and thus may not make the cut despite him being in.

 

[Gunla]

I don't think Toon Link's return means that everyone's in the game, we don't know how Sakurai treated the character this time around. For him, he may've considered Toon Link a "higher priority" character then the others and thus, had him finished before the majority.

Even ignoring that, there's still the chance that some characters are lower then him and thus may not make the cut despite him being in.

Something to note: Toon Link and the Toon Series in general has became a little bigger, thanks to stuff like the HD remake and Spirit Tracks, and Four Swords Anniversary, and etc. Much bigger than Young Link at this point in time. EDIT: 1999? Ooo.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I always new Toon Link and Lucario would return, because I saw Toon Link as the 4th best Zelda character to have and Lucario as the 4th best Pokemon character to have, and I new their series wouldn't drop to 3 characters, so they didn't really change my view on cuts.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Zelda deserved 4 characters, it is a very big franchise, the addition of Toon Link makes alot of sense, despite being a clone.
So it shouldn't really change your views to having no cuts.

 

[Groose]

I'd say you're a bit too negative on the size of the roster, this game has been in development for longer than Brawl and that's without the SSE taking up more than half of the dev time. This is still less than the amount we got for Brawl, with just 14 newcomers, I really doubt we'd get less than we got with Melee. Sakurai also said that no cuts had been made at one point, so its assumed that everyone from Brawl is at least planned to return, and they have more than enough time. In fact, with Toon Link having been revealed so early, I'm willing to bet that every character has already at least been put in the game and they're just tweaking them as they go. And the Miis aren't necessary, though that may come down to personal opinion. I'm still of the stance that the E3 leak was fake, or at least not completely true.

Roster size is the biggest question, isn't it? At first, it may seem to increase a lot because they are no longer focusing on single player and have more development time. On the other hand, it may seem to be lower because they're working on two games at once and they now have more older characters to recreate. I guessmy opinon ultimately is drawn from my motto.

"When you set high expectations, you open the door for disappointment. When you set low expectations, you open the door for happiness. That's a rule to live by."

 

[Curious Villager]

I don't think Toon Link's return means that everyone's in the game, we don't know how Sakurai treated the character this time around. For him, he may've considered Toon Link a "higher priority" character then the others and thus, had him finished before the majority.

Even ignoring that, there's still the chance that some characters are lower then him and thus may not make the cut despite him being in.

Yeah this is why I kinda wish people would lower their optimism a little. Because if someone does wind up getting cut, even if it's a character hardly anyone uses or gets cut due to different circumstances, Toon Link will be the one getting the blame for it because they believed that everyone will now 100% return because of him alone.

I honestly don't think he really affects any characters fate. If Snake were to wind up being cut (not saying he will), it has nothing to do with Toon Link and more because Sakurai couldn't get the rights from Konami again for example.

 

[Groose]

I honestly don't think he really affects any characters fate.*

*Except for Tetra, who would only be included if Toon Link himself made the cut. Her odds were boosted the day he was confirmed... but I still wouldn't call her "likely."

 

[Curious Villager]

*Except for Tetra, who would only be included if Toon Link himself made the cut. Her odds were boosted the day he was confirmed... but I still wouldn't call her "likely."

Oh yeah of course, I can't really see Tetra, Toon Zelda, Vaati, Toon Ganondorf etc making it in without Toon Link.
But I was more referring in terms of the playable Brawl cast.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

*Except for Tetra, who would only be included if Toon Link himself made the cut. Her odds were boosted the day he was confirmed... but I still wouldn't call her "likely."

Unless they decided to redesign Tetra to a more Skyward Sword/Twilight Princess theme.
As unlikely as that is, it would be pretty awesome the more and more I think about it.

 

[Sehnsucht]

Roster size is the biggest question, isn't it? At first, it may seem to increase a lot because they are no longer focusing on single player and have more development time. On the other hand, it may seem to be lower because they're working on two games at once and they now have more older characters to recreate. I guessmy opinon ultimately is drawn from my motto.

"When you set high expectations, you open the door for disappointment. When you set low expectations, you open the door for happiness. That's a rule to live by."

I agree with this two-systems concern, but much less so with your closing quote.

In what way is setting yourself up for disappointment (or not) relevant to the objective reality of cuts (or lack thereof)?

Choosing to hold a Cuts or a No Cuts view, simply because you want to minimize potential disappointment, has no bearing on whether Cuts actually occur. It's not as though your noetic impulses will ripple across the globe and affect Sakurai's subconscious or something.

Arguing from a standpoint of subjective expectations seems a rather inefficient approach to assessing the actual probability of Cuts. I would think that a stronger case would be made by examining developer interviews/Q&As and other objective evidence (even though I do readily admit that there isn't much to go on in terms of objective or empirical data at the moment).

 

[JamesDNaux]

Roster size is the biggest question, isn't it? At first, it may seem to increase a lot because they are no longer focusing on single player and have more development time. On the other hand, it may seem to be lower because they're working on two games at once and they now have more older characters to recreate. I guess my opinion ultimately is drawn from my motto.

I'd say that only applies to the sort of people who would actually get upset over the matter. I already thought Brawl's roster was nearly perfect, so not having many more wouldn't upset me. And the only characters that seem to be in the red zone for being cut (according to everyone here anyway) are Wolf, Ike, and Lucas, who also wouldn't upset me terribly. I'm using logic to work out what may or may not happen, while he is making two games at once, remember that they are both almost exactly the same thing besides some different content, and the 3DS version is already an inferior port on the technical side of things, so it isn't as hard as you would make it out to be. Sakurai also has a far larger team this time, and you would think that having people from Namco, who know what they're doing when it comes to fighting games, would be more than competent enough to accomplish the task. You've really got to take all of the factors into account.

"When you set high expectations, you open the door for disappointment. When you set low expectations, you open the door for happiness. That's a rule to live by."

I'm not going to try to dig into your philosophy here regarding that quote, but that's the kind of thing that really depends on the person. Thinking in that sort of way may be a good idea for some people, but not for others. The way I interpret it, "You may as well not try anything new, because you're going to fail anyway." An optimistic view is bad if you can't handle an upset, but an optimistic view is the better choice when you know things can go bad and don't mind that possibility.

 

[Gunla]

Unless they decided to redesign Tetra to a more Skyward Sword/Twilight Princess theme.
As unlikely as that is, it would be pretty awesome the more and more I think about it.

I've found some designs that sort of emulate an olderish TP/SS Tetra, it could certainly work out. But it's like Toon Sheik.

"When you set high expectations, you open the door for disappointment. When you set low expectations, you open the door for happiness. That's a rule to live by."

I agree so much with this.

 

[Reila]

I've found some designs that sort of emulate an olderish TP/SS Tetra, it could certainly work out. But it's like Toon Sheik.

I agree so much with this.

May I see those designs? The closest I found to an older "non-toon" Tetra was this amazing piece of art:

 

[Gunla]

May I see those designs? The closest I found to an older "non-toon" Tetra was this amazing piece of art:

Hey, this was the exact one I was talking about, what a coincidence!
But once again, it's the Toon Sheik parable: It would be Sakurai stooping to a new low.

 

[Groose]

I agree with this two-systems concern, but much less so with your closing quote.

In what way is setting yourself up for disappointment (or not) relevant to the objective reality of cuts (or lack thereof)?

Choosing to hold a Cuts or a No Cuts view, simply because you want to minimize potential disappointment, has no bearing on whether Cuts actually occur. It's not as though your noetic impulses will ripple across the globe and affect Sakurai's subconscious or something.

Arguing from a standpoint of subjective expectations seems a rather inefficient approach to assessing the actual probability of Cuts. I would think that a stronger case would be made by examining developer interviews/Q&As and other objective evidence (even though I do readily admit that there isn't much to go on in terms of objective or empirical data at the moment).

Perhaps we've reached a misunderstanding. I'd expect the roster to increase by about ten movesets based off of interviews and the working conditions of the game itself. Sakurai said not to expect too many newcomers, that not all characters would return, and that putting in each character is like multiplication. Add in the fact that Nintendo really, really needs this game to launch without any delays and that they have to create each character in two versions, and I think that roughly ten to twelve newcomers with a small number of cuts is about the most likely scenario. It's true that he's probably focusing the game more on the versus mode this time, but each newcomer is more difficult to add than in the past, so I don't think we'll get as large an increase as in Brawl or Melee.

Maybe you can make a case for more newcomers than that. Perhaps you could interpret the evidence differently than I do and make a case that fifteen newcomers are plausible. However, when my reasoning is just as valid as yours, and you could just as possibly have only ten, it's better to anticipate the lower number.

 

[Arcadenik]

May I see those designs? The closest I found to an older "non-toon" Tetra was this amazing piece of art:

I approve!

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I'm not quite as optimistic about you with the number of newcomers we'll receive, and even though I do encourage Pac-Man on prediction rosters, I'm not sure I would add him because you don't have room. I'd personally say you should make a few cuts to your roster. I feel you have a bit too many "surprise" picks; of Tabuu, Mach Rider, Goroh, and Tetra, I'd only add two of them.

Thanks, but I wouldn't consider those picks to be "too many" just because a majority of Smash fans fail to predict them or realize their importance and likeliness. I used to have a 48 roster too, but I kind of had to make room for Tetra and I didn't think 50 would be too much since it's only 2 less newcomers than Brawl (but, then again Brawl subtracted 5 veterans).

But, hey if it is just 48, it will likely just be the same roster, but missing 2 characters. So no biggie

Again though, I don't consider these to be "surprising characters" (with the exception of Tabuu obviously). I just don't think a lot of Smash fans are open minded enough to realize it. Not trying to be arrogant. Even I used to not be open minded enough to realize the importance of Tetra and Samurai Goroh.

Edit: Oh, and I like Tabuu. That's a great, Sakurai-esque surprise.

Oh, yeah thanks for that one too

 

[Autumn ♫]

So, in case some of you haven't seen it yet, how do you guys like my roster?

Edit: I made this before Little Mac was confirmed and I forgot to update Dedede, my fault.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

So, in case some of you haven't seen it yet, how do you guys like my roster?

Edit: I made this before Little Mac was confirmed and I forgot to update Dedede, my fault.

I'd like to praise it for the additions of Vaati, Samurai Goroh, and Robin. But, I have major doubts about the new franchises you chose. Golden Sun, Sin & Punishment, and Xenoblade are not very major IPs. You could argue they are popular, but I would not consider them major mascot esque franchises.

Regardless this is a very good roster.

 

[NickerBocker]

So, in case some of you haven't seen it yet, how do you guys like my roster?

Edit: I made this before Little Mac was confirmed and I forgot to update Dedede, my fault.

10/10 for Vaati and Robin

I personally wouldnt choose Samurai Goroh, but in the context of the rest of the roster, it fits I suppose.

 

[Autumn ♫]

I'd like to praise it for the additions of Vaati, Samurai Goroh, and Robin. But, I have major doubts about the new franchises you chose. Golden Sun, Sin & Punishment, and Xenoblade are not very major IPs. You could argue they are popular, but I would not consider them major mascot esque franchises.

Regardless this is a very good roster.

I was iffy with Golden Sun and S&P but I decided that they'd be good for representing new franchises, which I was focusing more towards.

10/10 for Vaati and Robin

I personally wouldnt choose Samurai Goroh, but in the context of the rest of the roster, it fits I suppose.

It just wouldn't be me if i didn't have Vaati or Robin.

 

[Sehnsucht]

Perhaps we've reached a misunderstanding. I'd expect the roster to increase by about ten movesets based off of interviews and the working conditions of the game itself. Sakurai said not to expect too many newcomers, that not all characters would return, and that putting in each character is like multiplication. Add in the fact that Nintendo really, really needs this game to launch without any delays and that they have to create each character in two versions, and I think that roughly ten to twelve newcomers with a small number of cuts is about the most likely scenario. It's true that he's probably focusing the game more on the versus mode this time, but each newcomer is more difficult to add than in the past, so I don't think we'll get as large an increase as in Brawl or Melee.

It does seem that there was a miscommunication. I was purely addressing the sentiment of your motto, which I took to mean "Nobody likes to be disappointed, so you might as well lower your expectations". I interpreted this as you arguing on the basis of personal preference, which, while fine, is certainly less tenable as a line of argumentation (it's probably more opinion than argument anyway, given the subjective underpinning).

I see that you do have a case backed by empirical data, though, which is excellent. I'm familiar with all of this information, save perhaps the bolded. I've read that the Sakurai stated they'd try to not do cuts, though they made no guarantee. Unless you are referring to some other source in which he explicitly states that no, not all characters from Brawl (/Melee) will be returning this time around (for posterity, perhaps you could present this source).

We have five newcomers now, and Palutena/Takamaru/Mewtwo/Ridley/DK Newcomer (and maybe a Namco-Bandai or other Third-Party character) are next in line in terms of probability, which brings us up to 10-11. 10-15 Newcomers seems the sweetspot for SSB4 (I could easily envision 11-13). I'd actually be fine with less Newcomers if it means quality over quantity, but that's a different matter.

Newcomers and Third-Parties will have the highest priority, I expect, followed by the more prominent Veterans. If Cuts are to happen, they will happen in the latter phases of the development process, especially since they are aiming for a 2014 release. True, we have the multiplication factor at play, and work being done across two systems; but conversely, we have a larger team (due to the Sora/Namco-Bandai partnership), and the removal of a time-consuming story-heavy campaign. These latter factors may be enough to counteract the impact of the former.

Maybe you can make a case for more newcomers than that. Perhaps you could ***** the evidence differently than I do and make a case that fifteen newcomers are plausible. However, when my reasoning is just as valid as yours and you could just as possibly have only ten, it's better to anticipate the lower number.

I don't think the issue is actually about Less VS More Newcomers. Rather, there is a dearth of persuasive or convincing information that could lead to one position being more tenable than the other. So indeed, both approaches are valid, but only as far as we currently stand. I'm eager to learn more about the potential size and distribution of the final roster, so that our predictions may be more accurate and better substantiated.

I'm not against Cuts, or having less Newcomers. There is simply nothing at the moment that, in my view, suggests that Cuts are anything more than an abstract potentiality (though I will certainly adjust my stance accordingly the moment new information comes to light).

 

[dimensionsword64]

Sorry, but I lost any will of discussing this subject when you said Toon Zelda/Tetra would be another clone. It isn't worth the effort. lol

Toon Link didn't have to be a clone, but he was.

Dude has a huge following in Japan and his own series. How's that not popular?

Sorry, I meant not very popular in the US

Not being popular isn't a good reason, while Tingle is recurring, unique, and important. Also Tingle is also in Minish Cap. Also being acknowledged by Sakurai by being an AT.

A lot of people in the US hate him. Not many people in the US like him. Popularity is a good reason to include or deny a character.

It should perhaps be noted that Ghirahim was a prominent figure in the most recent console Zelda title; not to take away from the success of the handheld titles, but console titles are the ostensible meat and potatoes of the series. SS has already gotten representation via the Skyloft stage and the Beetle item. They've clearly been looking at SS; lifting Ghirahim from there is not entirely unfeasible.

***I think I've only played Phantom Hourglass, and I didn't even beat it, whereas I've played all console Zelda games to completion.

I'm pretty sure Link Between Worlds got better reviews overall then Skyward Sword.

 

[Sehnsucht]

I'm pretty sure Link Between Worlds got better reviews overall then Skyward Sword.

I wasn't referring to critical (or popular) acclaim; I'm not sure if one could even assess how much of a factor pure acclaim is for Smash consideration. I'd imagine that sales figures would be a more useful approach, since it consists of hard data (and is one possible measure of popularity).

The Zelda franchise is spread out between console and handhelds, but the console Zeldas are the one-two punch of the franchise, especially since we only get 1-2 per console generation. Consider, for instance, that thus far, we have a Skyloft stage for Wii U, but an OOT3D stage for the 3DS (though this isn't to say that the 3DS will not feature a second Zelda stage from another handheld-exclusive title, including one wherein Vaati starred).

I do see the viability of Vaati, especially with the strong arguments presented in his favour. For me, Ghirahim is a personal bonus, and I'd be just as pleased to see Vaati, especially since I'm not all too familiar with him. At the moment, however, I see it as a heated race between Ghirahim-Vaati(-Tetra), with Tingle kooloo-limping some distance behind.

 

[Freduardo]

I'd say you're a bit too negative on the size of the roster, this game has been in development for longer than Brawl and that's without the SSE taking up more than half of the dev time. This is still less than the amount we got for Brawl, with just 14 newcomers, I really doubt we'd get less than we got with Melee. Sakurai also said that no cuts had been made at one point, so its assumed that everyone from Brawl is at least planned to return, and they have more than enough time. In fact, with Toon Link having been revealed so early, I'm willing to bet that every character has already at least been put in the game and they're just tweaking them as they go. And the Miis aren't necessary, though that may come down to personal opinion. I'm still of the stance that the E3 leak was fake, or at least not completely true.

Ah yes, the game has been in development longer than brawl and will not take all the size of subspace emissary, buuuuut that's cause Sakurai's saving his ultimate secret reveal!

Yes, despite what you've said about them, it's the Mii.

And it's more customizable than you may think.

Choose from one of twelve different A-button attack sets, some with weapons (Sword, spear, staff)

And choose each B Button move individually. All moves affect character speed at different amounts.

Sakurai says are you pissed X character isn't in the game? Then **** you, kid, make them yourself!

 

[pikachugamer21]

Ah yes, the game has been in development longer than brawl and will not take all the size of subspace emissary, buuuuut that's cause Sakurai's saving his ultimate secret reveal!

Yes, despite what you've said about them, it's the Mii.

And it's more customizable than you may think.

Choose from one of twelve different A-button attack sets, some with weapons (Sword, spear, staff)

And choose each B Button move individually. All moves affect character speed at different amounts.

Sakurai says are you pissed X character isn't in the game? Then **** you, kid, make them yourself!

that would legitimately make me upset

 

[?????????????]

that would legitimately make me upset

I'd be okay with it.

 

[pikachugamer21]

I'd be okay with it.

I guess I would warm up to it but if having the mii takes up so much space that we get hardly anymore newcomers because of it then that wouldn't be good at all

 

[SuperBrawler]

Yeah I wouldn't really mind but would prefer to have a specific Mii anyway. Especially since it already can have a unique non customizable moveset too.

 

[?????????????]

Mii has a lot to pull from to make a unique moveset.

 

[SuperBrawler]

Mii has a lot to pull from to make a unique moveset.

Exactly, I don't get how some people think Mii's are bland.

 

[Gune]

Ah yes, the game has been in development longer than brawl and will not take all the size of subspace emissary, buuuuut that's cause Sakurai's saving his ultimate secret reveal!

Yes, despite what you've said about them, it's the Mii.

And it's more customizable than you may think.

Choose from one of twelve different A-button attack sets, some with weapons (Sword, spear, staff)

And choose each B Button move individually. All moves affect character speed at different amounts.

Sakurai says are you pissed X character isn't in the game? Then **** you, kid, make them yourself!

I'd dig this, BIG time.

 

[BKupa666]

Mii has a lot of items to swing around identically to how Game & Watch and Villager swing around items. They're sports items! Peach's F-Smash on 24 different inputs is so unique, y'all!

 

[Kenith]

Exactly, I don't get how some people think Mii's are bland.

It's not their move set, it's their designs.

 

[?????????????]

Mii has a lot of items to swing around identically to how Game & Watch and Villager swing around items. They're sports items! Peach's F-Smash on 24 different inputs is so unique, y'all!

Side Special can be "Charge!," based on Wii Play:

The Mii rides a cow to trample over opponents.

Eh? EH?

 

[Sehnsucht]

Side Special can be "Charge!," based on Wii Play:

The Mii rides a cow to trample over opponents.

Eh? EH?

I think I see Sakurai's successor.

 

[False Sense]

It's not their move set, it's their designs.

You mean their entirely customizable designs?