Character Discussion Thread

[Autumn ♫]

LOL, anyone who thinks that Vaati has a ghost of a chance compared to Ghirahim is a rube.

I have no idea what a rube is, but I'm assuming it's something good, for your sake.

 

[The Light Music Club]

I hate when we talk about Zelda. Mainly because I don't play the games.

 

[TumblrFamous]

So essentially, Mega Man's Leaf Shield taken to a full extreme? My concern is of how broken that could end up being. If Ghirahim has to keep his diamonds up at all times to be effective, surely that would in part mean that while diamond are up, they're very effective at causing rapid passive damage, yes? If so, it seems like Ghirahim would end up as something of a Smash version of the Pokemon Aegislash: Split versatility between being offensive or defensive, and if played right, essentially both. Competitive players are currently holding a suspect test to ban Aegislash too, after the top players give their input after a few weeks of playtesting, on part of how characters that have timing-situational access to high offense/defense often mean they have both.

For a bit of context, Aegislash's offenses are 150 in blade forme and defenses are 150 in shield form. It has 520 base stat total in either given form. Playing it with good prediction means it functions as having a 720 base stat total. In comparison, most legendaries have only 680 as their base stat total, while the Pokemon meant to represent god itself has 720 as well. Apply that to the context of Smash and you're essentially suggesting a character with Little Mac's power and Bowser's defense.

If Ghirahim has a similar type of mechanic that situationally makes him very offensive or defensive at given input, that would result in being a game mechanic with way too much payoff to be fair, or a character with faults galore and only one redeeming mechanic in hopes that will make him balanced (which could very well end up instead as a bottom-tier character). It's unique, given, but there's very likely a reason we've yet to have a character that can inflict passive damage. I'm not talking about Jigglypuff's Rest or Olimar's Pikmin, either. I mean passive passive damage.

Maybe you're just not explaining it well enough to me?

Hm, good point.

I was thinking that when Ghirahim had those defenses, the attacks at his disposal would be low range and low damage. When he is able to attack, he is powerful, yet he is an extreme glass cannon: floaty, tall, and light. Perhaps I could have put more thought into it, as your point about Aegislash is very valid and true. I am with no doubt that Sakurai would be able to come up with some gameplay mechanic that Ghirahim can lean towards, yet it is difficult to try to put ideas to paper.

 

[Big-Cat]

I wouldn't mind seeing Ganondorf as an ammo-stance hybrid character, actually (I don't know if there's a better way to describe it). Pulling a sword out which doesn't change his moves, but augments them (like the beam sword item), but has a cooldown so it can't be used all the time. I would dig that.

That's more akin to a buffer character. Someone that augments their abilities like Miss Fit with Deep Breatjing.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

People are talking about Ghirahim and Vaati and such whilst I'm here thinking the most "likely" (and by the most likeliest, I mean the least unlikely compared to other potential LoZ newcomers) is Toon Zelda.

Anyways, speaking of gameplay, here is my Isaac moveset and gameplay idea

Time to make my Isaac moveset

Spoiler

-Downward slash, the double forward-moving slash
+- Casts a weak , small rock projectile with no knockback that lasts for a short while
+-Uses Punji, casting a bamboo that sprouts from the ground.
+-Uses Growth to cast grass which sprouts from below Isaac
+-Gaia. A shower of Venus energy and boulders rain closely upon the enemy.
+-Thorn. A field of spiked vines sprout out from the ground in front of Isaac. Does not deal much knockback and lasts for a few moments. It does not hurt Isaac, meaning he can use Thorn as a temporary over.
+-Spire.A stalagmite is cast twice. Where the direction held is down-right or down left during these two castings determines where the Spires is casts from, whether it is directly in front of Isaac or behind for for the two castinsg. Thing something sorta like Lucas's Down-Smash.
Aerial- Cast a rock wall in front of him.
Aerial++- Halt. Temporarily stops an opponent mid-movement, stunning them and letting them fall down for a brief movement in an helpless state
Aerial++-Pound. Casts a magical giant hand that pounds the opponent below Isaac. Can be used to spike enemies.
Aerial++-Force. Has good knockback. It involves casting a giant magical fists that leaves after-images behind it
Aerial++-Upwards kick followed by Isaac casting thorny vines above him
+-Sends out a Magical Giant hand after opponent to grab them. Has great range. The pummel would be the Hand crushing the opponent multiple times
+-Front-Slap. Slaps off the opponent, knocking them off forwards.
+-Catch-The Hand throws the opponent upwards
+-Pound. The Hand just crushes the opponent on the stage with a flat hand. Causes the opponent to bounce.
+-Back-Slap-Same as Front-Slap except of course, done backwards.

Special Moves
-Move- works similar to how it did in Brawl, except much smaller, dealing damage and with far less knockback. However, it does have several expanded abilities such as the ability to grab and throw opponents in mid-air.Press once to activate Move. Whilst it is still active, press before it disappears in order to grab the opponent. If successful, one has a short period of time to control the Hand whilst still holding before being forced to throw them. One can throw them in any different direction.

+-Great Wall- Chargeable move. The level of charge that is held determines the distance in which Isaac creates the wall from him as well as its power in terms of damage dealt and knockback given. Great for immediately stopping all momentum of the opponent if they end up in contact with it, as they end up stunned and any damage would be absorbed by the wall. A key move in limiting offensive approach

+-Wild Growth- A great, thick tangle of vines ends up sprouting from a yellow portal made out of Venus energy. Very useful anti-air attack and the primary recovery method that Isaac would use. After Wild Growth stops, Isaac can the climb the vine in order to gain ground. Does not cause helpless state. Can still attack whilst climbing, however, Isaac can only attack with his sword with the button. Another key anti-air move due to its great reach. Useful for attacking opponents directly above you.

+-Quake- The floor that Isaac is on ends up shaking. Opponents that are on the floor or in close proximity are send upwards, bouncing three times before being knocked up upwards

Final Smash

Judgement

As for his gameplay, I expect Isaac's gameplay to be based around anti-air zoning and ground dominance by limiting offensive approaches, heavily relying on his magical hand and his other techniques to bring the opponent down to earth. Whilst he'll be more of a grounded character, I don't expect that he will be heavily relying on mobility as it would be below-average. Rather, he stands his ground and uses techniques such as Quake, Rockfall, Spires and Growth to control and dominate on his own terms.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

Refresh my memory: How is Toon Zelda a meaningful addition to the roster in any capacity?
Tetra at least is a pirate. But not only does Toon Zelda have nothing to offer moveset-wise (clone and all that), but she poorly represents the franchise, as Toon Link already covers the Toon portion of Zelda's history.

 

[Morbi]

Refresh my memory: How is Toon Zelda a meaningful addition to the roster in any capacity?
Tetra at least is a pirate. But not only does Toon Zelda have nothing to offer moveset-wise (clone and all that), but she poorly represents the franchise, as Toon Link already covers the Toon portion of Zelda's history.

Toon Zelda is (was) a meaningful addition to the roster as Sakurai arbitrarily perceived her as such. Obviously that is subject to change; however, it is undeniable that Sakurai was able to discern some potential.

 

[ihskeyp]

Refresh my memory: How is Toon Zelda a meaningful addition to the roster in any capacity?
Tetra at least is a pirate. But not only does Toon Zelda have nothing to offer moveset-wise (clone and all that), but she poorly represents the franchise, as Toon Link already covers the Toon portion of Zelda's history.

She wouldn't be very meaningful, but if they add a last minute clone, I'd love to have Toon Zelda since I'm a Zelda main and it'd be cool to try out a different variation of her. I'd only want her if she was last minute though, not someone who would take up a lot if production time.
Edit: and I agree about Tetra being a better choice.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Hm, good point.

I was thinking that when Ghirahim had those defenses, the attacks at his disposal would be low range and low damage. When he is able to attack, he is powerful, yet he is an extreme glass cannon: floaty, tall, and light. Perhaps I could have put more thought into it, as your point about Aegislash is very valid and true. I am with no doubt that Sakurai would be able to come up with some gameplay mechanic that Ghirahim can lean towards, yet it is difficult to try to put ideas to paper.

If you can think of anything good, do let me know. I'm really not sold on Ghirahim being in Smash Bros. before a huge number of characters, frankly because I think he's still just another Skull Kid or Zant in the series, waiting to be replaced by the new not-Ganon villain, and that his popularity is bound to die off the same as how Zant's and Byrne's did unless he makes more appearances. So gameplay is the only selling factor for Ghirahim is going to have for me, if he even has that above the remaining candidates.

 

[N3ON]

I don't see Vaati support as anything besides futile at this point tbh.

Toon Zelda is (was) a meaningful addition to the roster as Sakurai arbitrarily perceived her as such. Obviously that is subject to change; however, it is undeniable that Sakurai was able to discern some potential.

For all we know the meaning behind such a "meaningful addition" was merely to pad the roster.

 

[Curious Villager]

I do agree that we'd probably most likely see someone from the Wind Waker, doesn't necessarily have to be Toon Zelda, could also be Tetra or a revamped Ganondorf based of how he was in that game. I personally don't think we will really be seeing someone from Skyward Sword as a playable character but I guess that's just me.
Assuming we'd get a Zelda newcomer in the first place that is....

And I personally wouldn't mind an alternate take on Zelda......

 

[Autumn ♫]

I don't see Vaati support as anything besides futile at this point tbh.

All support is futile at this point. Sakurai is probably finishing up the final characters right now, if he hasn't done so already.

 

[~Krystal~]

It's actually interesting that Sakurai at one point considered Toon Zelda. I'm curious to see how she would play.

 

[Curious Villager]

It's actually interesting that Sakurai at one point considered Toon Zelda. I'm curious to see how she would play.

Probably speedier, smaller, but a bit weaker and more magic oriented than her more detailed counterpart I'd assume. At least if Toon Link & Link are anything to go by.

 

[Nat Perry]

I can imagine that she would also have light arrows as a Final Smash too, but the again she could possess a Phantom and that'd be cooler.

 

[Scamper52596]

It's actually interesting that Sakurai at one point considered Toon Zelda. I'm curious to see how she would play.

It's not too hard to believe that she was considered. Toon Zelda can represent the Zelda franchise better than most other Zelda characters could.

 

[N3ON]

All support is futile at this point. Sakurai is probably finishing up the final characters right now, if he hasn't done so already.

Let me rephrase that (though character support for DLC might not be futile): I believe Vaati support has been futile this whole time.

When Vaati was at his most popular and most timely he was passed over - and literally given no role in Brawl. Since then, he hasn't made any re-appearances outside re-releases (which can't compare to new titles or even full remakes), and has only declined in popularity. Meanwhile Sakurai seems to be emphasizing post-Brawl titles and characters who had notable roles in those titles, but even if he wasn't, it seems like Vaati missed his chance for inclusion last time. I mean... what does Vaati have going for him that another Zelda character doesn't outclass him in?

 

[Autumn ♫]

Let me rephrase that (though character support for DLC might not be futile): I believe Vaati support has been futile this whole time.

When Vaati was at his most popular and most timely he was passed over - and literally given no role in Brawl. Since then, he hasn't made any re-appearances outside re-releases (which can't compare to new titles or even full remakes), and has only declined in popularity. Meanwhile Sakurai seems to be emphasizing post-Brawl titles and characters who had notable roles in those titles, but even if he wasn't, it seems like Vaati missed his chance with Brawl. I mean... what does Vaati have going for him that another Zelda character doesn't outclass him in?

Vaati's still very popular now, both in and outside of Smash. He also got a new game after Brawl just a month before Skyward Sword (or at least, Nintendo considers it it's own game) also, Vaati didn't really have any chance for Brawl, due to Toon Link needing to be in the game before Vaati, as it would be odd having a villain without it's hero. That, along with the fact that Sakurai considers a child Link a nessisity for Smash.

 

[Doompatron3000]

I can imagine that she would also have light arrows as a Final Smash too, but the again she could possess a Phantom and that'd be cooler.

If we're talking about a Final Smash for Toon Zelda, during the time she was considered for Brawl, then she wouldn't have that Phantom possession as an option, because Spirit Tracks wasn't out yet. However, if they do have Toon Zelda, now then yes, that could be a Final Smash for her.

 

[Scamper52596]

If we're talking about a Final Smash for Toon Zelda, during the time she was considered for Brawl, then she wouldn't have that Phantom possession as an option, because Spirit Tracks wasn't out yet. However, if they do have Toon Zelda, now then yes, that could be a Final Smash for her.

That would be a cool Final Smash, but I think it would be odd if the Phantom is already part of her move set in the same manner as normal Zelda. My idea for her Final Smash would be to give her a set of Light Arrows that she can aim and shoot around for a period of time. They would cause damage and knock back, but not as much as Zelda's and Sheik's single, more devastating Light Arrow.

 

[Nat Perry]

Vaati's still very popular now, both in and outside of Smash. He also got a new game after Brawl just a month before Skyward Sword (or at least, Nintendo considers it it's own game) also, Vaati didn't really have any chance for Brawl, due to Toon Link needing to be in the game before Vaati, as it would be odd having a villain without it's hero. That, along with the fact that Sakurai considers a child Link a nessisity for Smash.

Haha that was just a re-release of Four Swords for Zelda's 25th anniversary, that doesn't mean much. That's like saying Wart got a new game with the new Super Mario All-Stars Special Edition.

Lol, what if Wart is a Smash Run boss? I'd rather see Petey Piranha first though.

 

[Curious Villager]

She'd probably still get the light arrows, and even if she does, I hope she gets to use the Bow of Light from Spirit Tracks, which if I recall correctly, has the ability to shoot three (or was it five?) arrows at once which I think is a pretty neat alternative take of Zelda's light arrow Final Smash.

I do hope they would change Sheik's Final Smash if it came to it....

 

[Autumn ♫]

Haha that was just a re-release of Four Swords for Zelda's 25th anniversary, that doesn't mean much. That's like saying Wart got his own game with the new Super Mario All-Stars Special Edition.

If Nintendo counts it as it's own individual game, then it means something.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

For the record, my 3 most-wanted Zelda characters are:

1. Ganon
2. Vaati
3. Impa

Anyone else is either unlikely or unwanted.

 

[Nat Perry]

If Nintendo counts it as it's own individual game, then it means something.

Not necessarily, a remake means something more than a re-release with a little added content.

I'd say that the likes of Ocarina of Time and Starfox 64 3D, or Master Quest, Fire Emblem Shadow Dragon or Mystery of the Emblem, or Super Mario 64 DS, means something more than the new Mario All-Stars, Kirby Dream Collection, Four Swords 25th Anniversary Edition, etc.

 

[Gold_Jacobson]

If you can think of anything good, do let me know. I'm really not sold on Ghirahim being in Smash Bros. before a huge number of characters, frankly because I think he's still just another Skull Kid or Zant in the series, waiting to be replaced by the new not-Ganon villain, and that his popularity is bound to die off the same as how Zant's and Byrne's did unless he makes more appearances. So gameplay is the only selling factor for Ghirahim is going to have for me, if he even has that above the remaining candidates.

People keep comparing Ghirahim to Ex: Zant because of the number of games they are in... The difference?

In skyward sword, the antagonist, Ghirahim actually is developed as a character. He has probably, 100 x the lines that Zant and skull kid have.

Ghirahim's writing is much more in depth than other villains with one appearance. This is also illustrated by the many encounters with him and his many many lines.

 

[shrooby]

Ghirahim?
Toon Zelda?
Ganon?
Impa?

Who needs any of them when you can have Groose?

 

[Morbi]

For the record, my 3 most-wanted Zelda characters are:

1. Ganon
2. Vaati
3. Impa

Anyone else is either unlikely or unwanted.

I feel as though my most wanted Legend of Zelda newcomers are:
1. Beedle and Tingle as a tag-team, rage based character in the same vein as Ferra/Torr from Mortal Kombat X.
2. Kaepora Gaebora
3. Classic Ganon

However, I find Ghirahim and Impa to be the only "likely" candidates based on "evidence" alone.

 

[N3ON]

Vaati's still very popular now, both in and outside of Smash.

There must be at least like three or four other non-playable Zelda characters more popular than him...

He also got a new game after Brawl just a month before Skyward Sword (or at least, Nintendo considers it it's own game)

How can an Anniversary Edition be considered a new game? That title alone signifies it is a new edition of an existing game released on its anniversary...

also, Vaati didn't really have any chance for Brawl, due to Toon Link needing to be in the game before Vaati, as it would be odd having a villain without it's hero. That, along with the fact that Sakurai considers a child Link a nessisity for Smash.

Just because TL is included now doesn't mean Sakurai is just going to return to a possible mentality he had years ago where at that point Vaati hypothetically could've been next in line. That doesn't mean he'd still be next in line. Time moves on and new developments in series occur which necessitates re-evaluating where things stand; and Vaati doesn't stand with the same stature and popularity he had in pre-Brawl. Characters who haven't had recent appearances usually decline in popularity, and new characters by and large push them aside and claim that popularity. Even Sakurai seems to be focusing on the newer, or at least recent aspects of all these series. Do you think Greninja would be included in a future edition of Smash if he wasn't included now? How about Ike being included now if he hadn't been included in Brawl? Or perhaps the closest parallel... do you think Sheik would have been included in Brawl or now if she hadn't been included in Melee? Some characters only have a shot at specific times, and then, until they make an actual re-appearance, they've likely missed their shot. I see no reason to believe Vaati doesn't fall under this umbrella.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

Ghirahim?
Toon Zelda?
Ganon?
Impa?

Who needs any of them when you can have Groose?

Oh, god, Groose.

People keep talking about how awesome Ghirahim is for his constant interactions and character development and depth, when Groose beats him in that apartment.

I'm one of those guys who believe that Skyward Sword shouldn't get a rep, but I wouldn't even be mad if Pig Ganon was kicked off the roster in favor of Groose.
I even made a moveset!

Spoiler

 

[Scamper52596]

Ghirahim?
Toon Zelda?
Ganon?
Impa?

Who needs any of them when you can have Groose?

I would absolutely love for Groose to be playable in Hyrule Warriors. Not as much in Smash.
I could see Groose as a Little Mac clone though.

 

[Deleted member]

How can an Anniversary Edition be considered a new game? That title alone signifies it is a new edition of an existing game released on its anniversary...

To be fair, it has some extra content.

Though probably not enough to make it a "new" game.
EDIT: It's not like what OR/AS are to R/S, for example.

 

[Nat Perry]

I wanna see the Great Fairy playable. That's right folks, the Great Fairy.

Wind Waker version, obviously.

 

[SuperBrawler]

Bottom row is DLC. Thanks to AEM and leprechaunlink727 for the icons.

 

[Scamper52596]

Bottom row is DLC.

Every time Fred gets hit he yells, "My leg!"

 

[Cobalsh]

Oh, god, Groose.

People keep talking about how awesome Ghirahim is for his constant interactions and character development and depth, when Groose beats him in that apartment.

I'm one of those guys who believe that Skyward Sword shouldn't get a rep, but I wouldn't even be mad if Pig Ganon was kicked off the roster in favor of Groose.
I even made a moveset!

Spoiler

Black Shadow would be the best new Capt. Falcon clone. I would be pissed beyond belief if this happened. Groose is a pretty stupid character, imo, and no one ever asks for him outside of Smashboards. So he's not likely in the slightest.

 

[NickerBocker]

I wouldnt count Vaati out at all. Remember how Chrom was a shoo-in?

Ghirahim certainly has a good chance. Hell, it might be better than Vaati. But every time I see Ghirahim it just screams another Zant situation. He has his support and popularity, but does it go beyond the one game he was in?

There's this argument going around that Ghirahim started the series. While that may be true, hes not really relevant to the timeline as a whole other than reviving Demise. Its the same situation with Agahnim, the wizard in the earlier games responsible for reviving Ganondorf. Not many people are clamoring for him. Ghirahims time in the spotlight may be very limited. I will admit that if he gets into any game, it will probably be this one.

I guess Ghirahim in Hyrule Warriors bodes well for him, although it is a spinoff. But its also possible that Vaati is also in that game, which might not be a stretch by any means. Apparently the roster is huge for HW, and if they started making original characters and using minor ones like Agitha, it makes me think that they will include Vaati.

There are other choices as well. While I dont find a Zelda newcomer too likely, there is a good chance. Its a pretty big series so it can happen.

I will also say that Zelda is my favorite game series, so any character that is included I will love.

 

[Morbi]

To be fair, it has some extra content.

Though probably not enough to make it a "new" game.
EDIT: It's not like what OR/AS are to R/S, for example.

It sounds as though that might be a question akin to the "Ship of Theseus" debate.

Bottom row is DLC.

Honestly, I would never buy Smash 4 if "Fred" was in it.

I wanna see the Great Fairy playable. That's right folks, the Great Fairy.

Wind Waker version, obviously.

Ocarina of Time version or bust!

I would absolutely love for Groose to be playable in Hyrule Warriors. Not as much in Smash.
I could see Groose as a Little Mac clone though.

Groose for Smash would be amazing, I would support him if he had some semblance of a chance.

 

[Doompatron3000]

Bottom row is DLC.

Looks like Pac-Man is missing

on purose?

 

[Nat Perry]

Ocarina of Time version or bust!

Ha. Ha. Ahaha. Ahahaha. Oh you pun-y person, you.