TeenGirlSquad
Smash Master
If Ganondorf gets a sword this time around, Demise might be a good alt. But not a playable character.
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Character Discussion Thread
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Malcolm Belmont
Smash Ace
I am sadly sad about the fact we will never get Simon Belmont in Smash Bros
Johnknight1
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Wait, how is pulling out your sword, aka something Ganondorf does as a taunt, work as a gimmick or a moveset base=???
Like, how=???
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Morbi
Scavenger
There is actually a precedent that establishes that that sentiment is not entirely the case. In Brawl, Sakurai was going to include Toon Zelda and presumably Toon Sheik (I cannot recall) in addition to Toon Link.
D
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Guest
Would much rather have the Count anyway.
Just so I can say "What is a man? Just a miserable pile of secrets! But enough talk, have at you!" whenever I fight someone.
KageJuin
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stance change, akin to character transformations:
gains different moves.
Think Nightmare from SC
Zafina Tekken
many many others
D
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Guest
.....a stance system.
No Sword style, Single Sword style, Two Sword style.
Even I got that by what was being said.
TumblrFamous
Smash Hero
Honestly, what the hell is up with your hatred towards Ghirahim and your ignorance to those who are his fans?
Johnknight1
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BTW, today would be a perfect day to tease a certain guy who turned 50 years old today (HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!) who Mario in smash is heavily based on.
(too bad he'll be a trophy... at least until Nintendo possibly buys Capcom)
(too bad he'll be a trophy... at least until Nintendo possibly buys Capcom)
toobladooblasdfghtkdjdhfngj
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Sounds sort of like Litchi, with the empasis on switching between two different playstyles on the fly.
Though, I would prefer that sort of thing be used on someone else.
Morbi
Scavenger
It could change the properties of Ghirahim's Smash attacks; similar to the Levin sword in Robin's move-set, albeit that is more about additional damage than drastically altering the properties of moves (if I am not mistaken, of course there is an electrical property). Ghirahim is seen without any swords, with one sword, and with two swords. So he could start off the match without a sword, and have either no Smash attacks available, or Smash attacks that do not pertain to his sword (such as a fabulous back-handed slap). If you use his neutral special, he could pull out his first sword (assuming he does not already have one by default). I envision that he might have some different attacks based on the notion that he has now incorporated a sword into his stance. After that, if he is dual-wielding both blades, those moves might change yet again (or they are locked and he must throw one of them before he can use Smash attacks again). It was just an idea.
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Johnknight1
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Are you saying that someone actually suggested a 2 or 3 movesets for Ghirahim in a stance system AFTER we lost multiple attacks in one input and transformations removed entirely from smash=???
Because if so...
(seriously guys, half the Chrom thread suggested that, and look how THAT turned out!)
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Big-Cat
Challenge accepted.
Morbid, when you're saying a character pulls a sword out, explain what's so special about doing that. If you're going to make a point, make it clear. For all I knew, you were suggesting a throwable sword.
D
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@
Big-Cat
You know more about fighting game styles than I do.
Can you explain how a character using a stance system isn't the same as transforming mid-match like Zelda/Sheik and Pokémon Trainer pre-Smash 4?
Morbi
Scavenger
I agree that it is not entirely likely, but it is more or less relevant to Ghirahim's "character," whereas Chrom's character is not commonly associated with stance switching (he predominantly uses Falchion).
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Maxilian
Smash Ace
Having in mind that Robin have different attacks based on the tome he's using..., is not something completely crazy.
KageJuin
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We were debating characters. I feel most people get shot down without giving them fair shot.
Girahim is treated as a guarantee, like Chrom was treated like a guarantee.
Need i remind you what happened?
I think my sig and avatar are clear enough, but: Robin made it in.
I rather see some actual debate rather than people shutting everything down.
I don't hate Girahim, He's personally my second choice for a Zelda newcomer. I want ANY Zelda newcomer that's NOT Tingle.
Stop shutting down plausable ideas rather than spamming your own and I think everything will work a lot smoother.
It seems everyone around here hates facts, as the INSTANT I pull out some articles or numbers, people start calling me a hater.
hahahahahaha
Morbi
Scavenger
I apologize if I was not clear, please remind me which other character pulls out a sword to use in their move-set? If you cannot, that is EXACTLY what makes it so "special." I WAS suggesting a throw-able sword (as one of the hypothetical moves), does Ghirahim not do precisely that?!
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Big-Cat
Challenge accepted.
The stances are not seen as separate characters and are part of a greater whole. More than transformations ever did anyway.@
You know more about fighting game styles than I do.
Can you explain how a character using a stance system isn't the same as transforming mid-match like Zelda/Sheik and Pokémon Trainer pre-Smash 4?
How fully fleshed out a stance is depends on the character.
TumblrFamous
Smash Hero
@
God Robert's Cousin
For Ghirahim, I think you can create a moveset heavily focused on a mixture of supreme defensive capabilities and trade-off for power. His ability to use those "diamond blades" were executed in SS as a defense mechanism, like a counter. The diamonds blocked attacks by Link. He eventually was able to dispatch those defenses as an attack.
If developers wanted to stay true to his ability in the game, his diamonds can act as a support, a defense for Ghirahim. At any time, he can trade off his defenses for using it as an attack. This would allow him to either be one of the most defensive characters the game has seen, or a very versatile fighter who manages his defenses well until the right moment when he can trade it for power and damage. Superb Ghirahim players will learn how to keep his defenses high and sturdy, and will use his defense at a perfect time to strike. I essentially see Ghirahim being a super defensive tank with proper use of his diamonds.
"Defense is the Best Offense"
God Robert's Cousin
For Ghirahim, I think you can create a moveset heavily focused on a mixture of supreme defensive capabilities and trade-off for power. His ability to use those "diamond blades" were executed in SS as a defense mechanism, like a counter. The diamonds blocked attacks by Link. He eventually was able to dispatch those defenses as an attack.
If developers wanted to stay true to his ability in the game, his diamonds can act as a support, a defense for Ghirahim. At any time, he can trade off his defenses for using it as an attack. This would allow him to either be one of the most defensive characters the game has seen, or a very versatile fighter who manages his defenses well until the right moment when he can trade it for power and damage. Superb Ghirahim players will learn how to keep his defenses high and sturdy, and will use his defense at a perfect time to strike. I essentially see Ghirahim being a super defensive tank with proper use of his diamonds.
"Defense is the Best Offense"
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You must not be paying much attention if you think Ghirahim is treated as a guarantee.
Second Power
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So far, the only move we've seen changed based on tome is jab finisher. That isn't much.
Maxilian
Smash Ace
Noone think Ghirahim is a guarantee, he's just a likely character, noone see him as we saw Chrom in the past, so.... no
I know how you feel bro, but you know what???!?!!?! Tingle is already deconfirmed :D He was already shown as an AT
Also noone is shutting down plausible ideas, they are saying that Ghirahim doesn't have an unique moveset posibility, when we all know that he have, also others are saying Demise over Ghirahim... and we all know that's not going to happen (it would be fun if it actually happen)Stop shutting down plausable ideas rather than spamming your own and I think everything will work a lot smoother.
It seems everyone around here hates facts, as the INSTANT I pull out some articles or numbers, people start calling me a hater.
hahahahahaha
Big-Cat
Challenge accepted.
How does taking out a sword make him so special? What is the difference between having and not having a sword for when it comes to Ghirahim?I apologize if I was not clear, please remind me which other character pulls out a sword to use in their move-set? If you cannot, that is EXACTLY what makes it so "special." I WAS suggesting a throw-able sword (as one of the hypothetical moves), does Ghirahim not do precisely that?!
You're leaving a lot of blanks, and you're not convincing me of Hhirahim. TumblrFamous has convinced me though.
Johnknight1
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The difference is those are different INPUTS and they don't give Robin any extra attacks.
The only thing in smash that currently gives characters extra attacks are character with tether recoveries having Z-airs. THAT'S IT!!!
Morbi
Scavenger
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/special
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/special
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/special
It makes him special by definition, I suppose.
Edit- It was first and foremost, a suggestion. If I wanted to "convince" anyone of his unique play-style, I would have probably thought of something better. It is a move-set that I would not mind seeing, a possibility. Nothing more, nor did I insinuate it do be.
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TeenGirlSquad
Smash Master
Swords using swords... How perverse...
TumblrFamous
Smash Hero
Um, you were the one who repetitively says "Ghirahim won't make it in". Don't make me fish out the times you said it when people talked about him. I remember last night when we were debating Vaati and Ghirahim, many people, yourself included, completely shot down Ghirahim's chances in favor of Vaati.
I don't think any Zelda newcomer is all that likely, but I am certainly open to any idea. Never once did you hear me say "Vaati will NEVER be in the game."
Johnknight1
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"Stance switch" in the sense shared across SWF (as in a character has MORE ATTACKS than the rest; literally the only time that's true is Z-airs, which over half a dozen characters have had thus far in smash) is dead.@
You know more about fighting game styles than I do.
Can you explain how a character using a stance system isn't the same as transforming mid-match like Zelda/Sheik and Pokémon Trainer pre-Smash 4?
In fact, it was never in a smash game, nor is there proof it was ever considered.
The only way this would work is if it's not a stance switch, but rather, Ghirahim using different attacks that use 1 sword, 2 swords, or no sword, just like every other character with a weapon, without making it more attacks than the average character.
Literally that is the only way that works. That or these "different attacks" for special moves are a part of the "customized moves".
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Big-Cat
Challenge accepted.
If it's a possibility and you have nothing much to say on it, then either just say that or keep your mouth shut.
Autumn ♫
I'm terrible with these Custom Titles.
How about we have a random Goron as a Zelda newcomer. I'm pretty sure everybody will be happy then. Or at least, I will. I like Gorons...
D
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Thank you.
So you would agree that with someone like say, Ghirahim, switching between No Sword, Single Sword, and Two Swords styles on the fly, if fleshed out to where each style complements the other or provides enough depth to be useful, is not a bad idea like what JohnKnight is trying to discredit it as, correct?
EDIT: I'm not trying to argue in favor of Ghirahim, just that the concept being presented isn't as bad as it is being labeled as.
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Morbi
Scavenger
couldOr even Gamma Charge!
I agree with this sentiment, Ghirahim is at the very least, popular in a Smash related context. However, I would assert that his move-set potential is more observable than his popularity as most of the other Legend of Zelda candidates are fairly popular themselves. He could introduce a gimmick that enables him to pull out his sword (or an additional disposable sword) with his neutral special.
ko͝od/
verb
- past of can1.
- used to indicate possibility.
"they could be right" - used in making polite requests.
"could I use the phone?"
- used to indicate possibility.
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Johnknight1
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We're literally arguing over definitions.
Guys, I'm sorry, but dictionaries won't be playable in Smash 4.
Guys, I'm sorry, but dictionaries won't be playable in Smash 4.
Big-Cat
Challenge accepted.
Correct. The issue in the past has been that we have dealt with characters as stances of sorts. These characters have functioned fully on their own. Even if they were meant to be used in tandem, the character design didn't allow this as is the case with Sheik and Zelda. Stances in other fighters are tools, not characters.
A character like you're suggesting could work but it has to be fleshed out for the pros and cons of each system and what exactly gets changed.
One more thing, stance characters must be able to fluidly transition into a stance. The Ghirahim suggestion is more like an ammo character than stance character in that regard.
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TumblrFamous
Smash Hero
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God Robert's Cousin
Smash Hero
So essentially, Mega Man's Leaf Shield taken to a full extreme? My concern is of how broken that could end up being. If Ghirahim has to keep his diamonds up at all times to be effective, surely that would in part mean that while diamond are up, they're very effective at causing rapid passive damage, yes? If so, it seems like Ghirahim would end up as something of a Smash version of the Pokemon Aegislash: Split versatility between being offensive or defensive, and if played right, essentially both. Competitive players are currently holding a suspect test to ban Aegislash too, after the top players give their input after a few weeks of playtesting, on part of how characters that have timing-situational access to high offense/defense often mean they have both.@
For Ghirahim, I think you can create a moveset heavily focused on a mixture of supreme defensive capabilities and trade-off for power. His ability to use those "diamond blades" were executed in SS as a defense mechanism, like a counter. The diamonds blocked attacks by Link. He eventually was able to dispatch those defenses as an attack.
If developers wanted to stay true to his ability in the game, his diamonds can act as a support, a defense for Ghirahim. At any time, he can trade off his defenses for using it as an attack. This would allow him to either be one of the most defensive characters the game has seen, or a very versatile fighter who manages his defenses well until the right moment when he can trade it for power and damage. Superb Ghirahim players will learn how to keep his defenses high and sturdy, and will use his defense at a perfect time to strike. I essentially see Ghirahim being a super defensive tank with proper use of his diamonds.
"Defense is the Best Offense"
For a bit of context, Aegislash's offenses are 150 in blade forme and defenses are 150 in shield form. It has 520 base stat total in either given form. Playing it with good prediction means it functions as having a 720 base stat total. In comparison, most legendaries have only 680 as their base stat total, while the Pokemon meant to represent god itself has 720 as well. Apply that to the context of Smash and you're essentially suggesting a character with Little Mac's power and Bowser's defense.
If Ghirahim has a similar type of mechanic that situationally makes him very offensive or defensive at given input, that would result in being a game mechanic with way too much payoff to be fair, or a character with faults galore and only one redeeming mechanic in hopes that will make him balanced (which could very well end up instead as a bottom-tier character). It's unique, given, but there's very likely a reason we've yet to have a character that can inflict passive damage. I'm not talking about Jigglypuff's Rest or Olimar's Pikmin, either. I mean passive passive damage.
Maybe you're just not explaining it well enough to me?
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TeenGirlSquad
Smash Master
LOL, anyone who thinks that Vaati has a ghost of a chance compared to Ghirahim is a rube.
BADGRAPHICS
Smash Ace
I wouldn't mind seeing Ganondorf as an ammo-stance hybrid character, actually (I don't know if there's a better way to describe it). Pulling a sword out which doesn't change his moves, but augments them (like the beam sword item), but has a cooldown so it can't be used all the time. I would dig that.
Morbi
Scavenger
Honestly, I feel as though Vaati, at the very least, stands a ghost of a chance compared to Ghirahim. Not necessarily by much, of course, but still a "ghost of a chance."
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