Character Discussion Thread

[Louie G.]

Question: Why that format?

Other than that, it looks good.

The format is experimental.
I guess it looks more like the roster of an arcade fighter this way. I dunno, I'm just trying it out. This isn't how I really think it will look.

 

[SuperBrawler]

Question: Why that format?

Other than that, it looks good.

Yes, it looks just like its in Brawl format but vertical instead of horizontally.

I have some time so I might make a dojo styled roster.

Oh and it also looks like Professor Layton's hat.

 

[Reila]

Here's my new roster. I'd be happy to answer any questions.

Spoiler

View attachment 8626

Pretty good roster. I would change Chrom for Robin, though.

 

[pikachugamer21]

So if you barely know about a character they are overrated?


On the topic of LoZ, I think Tingle is the most likely.

No perhaps you misunderstood my point what I meant was that people over rate his chances if Vaati is this huge major Zelda character everyone thinks he is then how come there isn't a single reference to him in Brawl whatsoever not even as a sticker

 

[Louie G.]

Pretty good roster. I would change Chrom for Robin, though.

Eh, I just don't see Robin happening. Not sure if Sakurai has ever considered Robin a serious contender.
Unlike Villager, Robin is an avatar that can't really represent the series as a whole, so I don't find Robin necessary.
Awakening representation on the other hand IS necessary since it's essentially the game that saved the franchise from extinction.
As a result, Chrom.
Plus I don't like Robin.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Ridley is purple, which is variation of blue, so I think he is the next one to be revealed (April) and then Palutena in June.

Red + Blue = Purple.

Green - Blue = Yellow.

Should we expect Isaac in June since by Purple = Blue, Yellow could be considered a variation of Green?

I see the little awesome lol face down there, but it doesn't stop it being the stupidest thing I've read since...well, the suggestion that all newcomers be either blue or green in hue.

Here's my new roster. I'd be happy to answer any questions.

Spoiler

View attachment 8626

Better get this one out the way, as I'm sure if I don't someone else will ask it; why Lip AND Takamaru? Two Japan exclusive retros?

 

[Reila]

Eh, I just don't see Robin happening. Not sure if Sakurai has ever considered Robin a serious contender.
Unlike Villager, Robin is an avatar that can't really represent the series as a whole, so I don't find Robin necessary.
Awakening representation on the other hand IS necessary since it's essentially the game that saved the franchise from extinction.
As a result, Chrom.
Plus I don't like Robin.

I respect your opinion, but you know that Chrom can't really represent the series as a whole either, right? That is why we have Marth in the game, the face of Fire Emblem. Although I agree that Chrom is far more likely, I can perfectly see Robin happening and I want she/he to happen far more than any other Awakening character, since I like her/his design far more.

Better get this one out the way, as I'm sure if I don't someone else will ask it; why Lip AND Takamaru? Two Japan exclusive retros?

Why not? What is wrong with two awesome-looking and unique Japan exclusive retros in a Japanese game?

 

[Louie G.]

Better get this one out the way, as I'm sure if I don't someone else will ask it; why Lip AND Takamaru? Two Japan exclusive retros?

Well I think they both have a lot of potential.
Takamaru can bring a samurai sword style to the table, and he isn't too obscure anymore thanks to Nintendo Land. Plus he's necessary for the completion of the 1986 quartet.
Lip can be so unique, and can not only represent Panel de Pon but the Puzzle League series in general and even better, all of Nintendo's puzzle games. Basically the puzzle rep. Plus Sakurai said that Panel de Pon was a masterpiece. Sure doesn't hurt.
You can replace Lip with Mach Rider or Muddy Mole (who I prefer) but I find Lip most likely and I think that we may get 2 retros this time around.
And we usually get a few Japan exclusives anyway, right? 2 isn't too much.

I respect your opinion, but you know that Chrom can't really represent the series as a whole either, right? That is why we have Marth in the game, the face of Fire Emblem. Although I agree that Chrom is far more likely, I can perfectly see Robin happening and I want she/he to happen far more than any other Awakening character, since I like her/his design far more.

Oh yeah, of course Chrom cant represent all of FE, but I don't think an AVATAR character is necessary unless it represents the series in a similar fashion to Villager.

 

[Autumn ♫]

I see we were talking about Vaati while I was gone. How the fudge is Vaati less necessary than retro characters?

 

[Reila]

I see we were talking about Vaati while I was gone. How the fudge is Vaati less necessary than retro characters?

Please explain to us how a random Zelda villain is more important than retro characters representing their unrepresented franchises.

 

[Louie G.]

I see we were talking about Vaati while I was gone. How the fudge is Vaati less necessary than retro characters?

Because Zelda is fine where it is.
Because a new retro in each Smash Bros is a tradition.
Because most retros have more unique abilities than Vaati (Takamaru's samurai sword and turning invisible, Mach Rider as a mount character, Lip in general, Muddy's digging).
There are a few reasons why, really.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Why not? What is wrong with two awesome-looking and unique Japan exclusive retros in a Japanese game?

Just the fact many will question this. Plus he said he'd be happy to answer any questions, thus...

I don't really see both happening, but I'm fairly certain we'll get one of the two. I just don't know which.

I see we were talking about Vaati while I was gone. How the fudge is Vaati less necessary than retro characters?

We as the Smash community have ridiculous fetishes for long forgotten series that Nintendo don't even care about anymore.

Seriously, I have no idea why we're so passionate about retros compared to everything else.

 

[False Sense]

Eh, I just don't see Robin happening. Not sure if Sakurai has ever considered Robin a serious contender.
Unlike Villager, Robin is an avatar that can't really represent the series as a whole, so I don't find Robin necessary.
Awakening representation on the other hand IS necessary since it's essentially the game that saved the franchise from extinction.
As a result, Chrom.
Plus I don't like Robin.

Now, while I think Chrom is a fine choice for a roster, I think some of that reasoning isn't quite right. For one, Robin is an Awakening character, and one that is just as important as Chrom in the game, and thus fulfills the need for an Awakening rep quite well. On top of that, Robin actually represents the series as a whole much better than Chrom does, as he can represent key concepts in the games such as the use of Magic, tactics, my unit characters, and possibly the ability to switch weapons based on what works best at the given moment. Going by that logic, Robin would make a superior representative of the Fire Emblem series than Chrom ever could.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Better get this one out the way, as I'm sure if I don't someone else will ask it; why Lip AND Takamaru? Two Japan exclusive retros?

Since both characters can provide something different, it shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Gunla]

Since both characters can provide something different, it shouldn't be a problem.

Yeah, Sakurai would have to try very hard to make those two clones of each other without not making any sense.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Since both characters can provide something different, it shouldn't be a problem.

Can't disagree, it's just rare to see a roster with both and it's the only unusual thing I could spot.

 

[Louie G.]

Now, while I think Chrom is a fine choice for a roster, I think some of that reasoning isn't quite right. For one, Robin is an Awakening character, and one that is just as important as Chrom in the game, and thus fulfills the need for an Awakening rep quite well. On top of that, Robin actually represents the series as a whole much better than Chrom does, as he can represent key concepts in the games such as the use of Magic, tactics, my unit characters, and possibly the ability to switch weapons based on what works best at the given moment. Going by that logic, Robin would make a superior representative of the Fire Emblem series than Chrom ever could.

Alright, I wont argue that Robin wouldn't be a good representation of Fire Emblem, but I just don't think Sakurai has considered Robin very much, or especially over Chrom or Lucina who are far more advertised and recognizable than Robin.
Just a hunch. I don't think Robin will be in the game.

 

[Autumn ♫]

Please explain to us how a random Zelda villain is more important than retro characters representing their unrepresented franchises.

Well, aside from their franchises being dead, Vaati is the 2nd most reoccuring villain only after Ganondorf and can easily give the Toon franchise a villain, with me trying to keep it short.

Because Zelda is fine where it is.
Because a new retro in each Smash Bros is a tradition.
Because most retros have more unique abilities than Vaati (Takamaru's samurai sword and turning invisible, Mach Rider as a mount character, Lip in general, Muddy's digging).
There are a few reasons why, really.

Your first statement is an opinion. Adding a new StarFox character every game and replacing a FE veteran with another newcomer from the most recent game can be considered tradition too. Vaati can turn people into stone, use flying eye bat things, transform into his Awakened Form for his Final Smash, use flamethrowers and electricity balls, and can teleport.

 

[Gunla]

Can't disagree, it's just rare to see a roster with both and it's the only unusual thing I could spot.

I personally believe at least one of them will make it, thinking Takamaru a little more.

 

[SuperBrawler]

No perhaps you misunderstood my point what I meant was that people over rate his chances if Vaati is this huge major Zelda character everyone thinks he is then how come there isn't a single reference to him in Brawl whatsoever not even as a sticker

Good point, and also Tingle was an AT in your logic which means I still win

 

[Groose]

Groose's February 2014 Prediction Roster

Music to listen to as you critique: Samus Aran's Theme Orchestral
I listened to this music three times as I made the roster, and I think it should get you in the mood as I read my reasoning.
​

This is my prediction roster. It is not a roster a that I necessarily want or consider ideal, but the one I feel has the highest chance of happening. There may be one or two areas where my preferences clouded my judgement (K. Rool, Ridley), and there may be one or two places where my roster has been influenced by the opinion of the masses (Pokemon Representation), but I have tried to make this as logical and personal as possible. I would like some objective, critical feedback; please try not to let your own ideal situations interfere in your critique.

​

1) 45 Slots/49 Movesets. This is always my predicted roster size--feasibly, I suppose the roster it could get a little larger, but I never get my expectations up above 45 slots/50 movesets. That way, I won't be so bitterly disappointed if it turns out we get low 40's.

2) Three Cuts: R.O.B., Lucas, and Wolf.

• I feel that a few cuts are inevitable because Sakurai said that "not all characters would return." Plus, expecting cuts and receiving none is better than expecting none and receiving some.

• Wolf was my first cut. He was last minute in Brawl, and probably will not be very high-priority this time, either. Part of his moveset could be given to Falco.

• Lucas was my second cut. I just couldn't find enough room for both him and Ness on the roster, and Ness has seniority now.

• R.O.B. was not originally supposed to be cut, but I had miscounted and included 46 slots instead of 45. I had to make a cut to fit in with my guiding rule. I feel this may be symbolic--they will try to include R.O.B., but time constraints may very well get to him.

• Snake is notably not cut. I feel like Sakurai will want him in there, and I don't think Nintendo has enough cards to stop him. Still, when I realized I overshot my intended roster size, I was torn between cutting him or R.O.B., and I chose the former. Snake is the next character I would cut.

• Neither Sheik nor ZSS will be cut, and Pokemon Trainer's Pokemon remain the same.

3) 13 Newcomers: Villager, Mega Man, Wii Fit Trainer, Rosalina, Little Mac, K. Rool, Waddle Dee, Ridley, Palutena, Chibi Robo, Mewtwo, Pac-Man, Mii.

• K. Rool is in, Dixie is not. I feel like we would have seen Dixie already if she were in--it would have made so much sense top promote Tropical Freeze. The closer to launch we get, the more likely a late-reveal K. Rool seems.

• Waddle Dee is in. We haven't seen the Waddle Dee Toss yet, and I can think of only two reasons for this: it's either still being worked on or it's been removed, perhaps in favor of a playable Dee. Still, I chose him mostly for balancing the roster--he's that one character who isn't top-tier in requests and isn't widely expected, but isn't completely outside the realm of discussion.

• Ridley is in. Sakurai's been teasing us with the Pyrosphere all along. Personally, I still think it could go either way, but I refuse to make a roster without him.

• Palutena is in. Not only do I believe the leak (hence why I used that image for her face on the roster), but I also feel she has a really good shot even if it's not true. She may be the newest member, but she is one of the "Super Six" of popular requests.

• Chibi-Robo. Yeah. I'm still expecting one more "surprise-type" character, and he's one I just have this hunch about. I considered Dillon, Ray, Tingle, and more for this spot, but I ultimately went with this hunch of mine.

• Mewtwo. The only thing noteworthy with this pick is that I'm treating him as a newcomer. I think they'll at least make a trailer for him.

• Pac-Man. Pac-Man has fallen out of favor with predictions rosters recently, but I feel he's among the most likely newcomers. I don't think Sakurai would be able to reject him if Bandai asked for him, and I'd be surprised if Bandai didn't ask for a character. When this is combined with the Sal Romano prediction (which I feel has a good shot at having credibility), I just couldn't refrain from putting him on my prediction roster.

• Miis. Miis are the closest thing we have to a shoo-in newcomer, in my eyes. They're icons of Nintendo more well known any characters we're considering, save perhaps Pac-Man. Even Mewtwo is probably less recognizable than a Mii nowadays. Add in the customization statements and the fact that the reasoning they weren't on past Smash games is now completely null, and they really seem likely. They may be absolutely despised by the majority of more devoted, mature Smashers, but among younger, newer Smashers they're a top-tier request. I feel Sakurai will try to please that crowd in some way, and adding Miis would be a better path than adding Shadow the Hedgehog, Goku or Spongebob. I used Reggie's Mii as the image, but I expect customization. If the Mii slot has an image at all, I expect it will either be Miyamoto's face or Reggie's face; I went with Reggie here because I think they will go there and use that joke.

4) Considered and Rejected Ideas

• Ike was cut for Chrom when I wrote out my roster, but I changed this last minute before I uploaded the image. Ike could very well be cut to cater to the many new Fire Emblem fans, but I don't think Sakurai would give up on him so easily. Let's just say that if DLC were to happen after development, I'd be expecting a Fire Emblem character.

• Shulk was one of the characters I initially wanted to include, but he just couldn't make the final cut. I'd say that if I had to increase my roster size to 48 slots, he'd probably make the cut.

• I considered adding a new "retro" character (of which the leading candidate was Takamaru), but I just didn't quite fit it in. I ultimately reasoned that Little Mac could be deemed enough of a revival... and joked that King K. Rool could be considered one as well Huge DK fan and K. Rool supporter here: it was a joke, don't shoot me!

• As I mentioned before, I briefly considered adding a few other characters like Dillon, Ray, Tingle, Takamaru, and also Isaac, Impa, Tetra, and Dixie, but none of them were in serious contention like Shulk or Chrom.

5) My Doubts and Uncertainties

• Pokemon Series Cast--in the end, I went with what is widely expected, but my gut tells me we may see a bit of a shakeup there. I caved, and I'm not sure that it was the right thing to do.

• Lack of a Retro/Historical character. I think Little Mac could classify (especially so after watching his trailer), but I still fear that there will be a second classic character that I failed to include.

• Too many newcomers--I've long predicted between six and twelve newcomer for this game, yet I just included thirteen. I fear that I overshot in that regard, and this is made worse in that it means I now expect too many newcomers, and am bound for disappointment in that regard.

• Snake. I'm leaning towards in, but it's very close and I very nearly cut him.

Whew. There you have it. This is probably the final prediction roster I'll make, and from now on I'll just edit this one as necessary. I'm hoping that your feedback will enable me to make some edits soon, but remember: my expectations are my expectations, and it will take a good argument to change them.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

And in that time...
-2 Newcomers
-4 International Directs, revealing Luigi, Sonic, Rosalina and recently Little Mac
-23 Characters, 11 Reveals total post E3.
I personally see 8 months or less till release, meaning...
-E3, we'll get 2-3 Newcomers (Likely 3)
-At least ~22 Reveals (I think the smallest possible roster is 45 slots)
-Counting Nintendo Directs... April, we'll get a Newcomer, June is E3, August is another Newcomer, then October and so on.

For Smash release date, I'll either say in the summer in July or August.
Or in the Fall, in October or November.
I find October or November the most likely

So assuming it comes out in October, I'd say we will get:
-About 5 reveals pre-E3 (1 being a newcomer in an April Direct)
-3 newcomer at E3 2014 (1 being a third-party)
-6 reveals post-E3 (1 in and August Direct, and 1 in an October Direct before the game's release)

There is also the possibility of a completely Smash-focused Direct closer to the game's release, like what they did for the Wonderful 101 and Pokemon X & Y. If there is one, I'd say there would be at least 1 newcomer, and 2 veteran reveals).

No perhaps you misunderstood my point what I meant was that people over rate his chances if Vaati is this huge major Zelda character everyone thinks he is then how come there isn't a single reference to him in Brawl whatsoever not even as a sticker

Good point you have there.
Though Vaati's popularity as a character increased since Brawl's release.
Also, Minish Cap was relatively close to Brawl's release, and that was the game that first had "human" Vaati. Before that, he was just a big monster. In Minish Cap, he was actually given more personality and a more developed character.

Not to mention Minish Cap was an Ambassador game on the 3DS, and the original Four Sword was re-released on the eShop/DSiWare. Twice.

 

[OcarinaOfDoom]

Here we go. Just finished a bit of small editing for this, although my opinions haven't changed much recently.

Major Points:
Roy - Partly a bias choice over Chrom. The two are interchangable on both of my rosters really
No Brawl Cuts - I honestly think the only Brawl cuts will be due to time. Ones who could be there include ROB, Lucas, and Wolf.

Thoughts? What could I do to improve this? I understand that I'm keeping this rather safe for now, although I don't exactly expect this to be 100% right.

 

[Groose]

Here we go. Just finished a bit of small editing for this, although my opinions haven't changed much recently.
View attachment 8630
Major Points:
Roy - Partly a bias choice over Chrom. The two are interchangable on both of my rosters really
No Brawl Cuts - I honestly think the only Brawl cuts will be due to time. Ones who could be there include ROB, Lucas, and Wolf.

Thoughts? What could I do to improve this? I understand that I'm keeping this rather safe for now, although I don't exactly expect this to be 100% right.

Interesting. I'll toss you a solid 7.5/10. First of all, it's a tad big; I feel you should hack a slot or two off of it for a bit more realism. Also, you played it a bit too safe for my liking--the only character that isn't really expected on your list is Roy. Those two complaints combine to form a bit of a problem--you have more slots than you should have, yet have less surprises than you should. I'd take out one of either Isaac, Shulk, or Takmaru and stick in someone less anticipated: a Saki, Chibi Robo, or Samurai Goroh type character.

Finally, as much as you may hate the idea, I consider both Miis and Pac-Man to have a very solid shot; I'd argue that at least one of the two will be getting in. For a prediction roster, having one of those two is definitely preferable.

 

[SmasherMaster]

Why do people think that there will be cuts from Brawl? Sakurai said not all of the fighters would return. Pichu, Dr. Mario, Roy, Young Link and Mewtwo fall into this catogory. Maybe even Plusle+Minun, Toon Zelda and Dixie Kong

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Groose's Grooster

Not a bad set of predictions overall. In fact, despite sharing separate philosophies, our rosters are very much alike.

The first thing to note is that I don't believe cuts from Brawl are a thing. Here's two of Sakurai's quotes.

We don’t have the time to fully recreate every single character who’s been in Smash Bros at this point. Adding new characters is not a simple addition – it’s really multiplication. The amount of work, adding a character is multiplied and becomes bigger and bigger as you go. We can’t because of the amount of work it takes. However, I do believe I understand that each character has its own set of fans out there who really like that character. So we’re not going to cut characters out of the way, we’re going to put in as many characters as we can, we really want to do that, because it’s good for the fans and good for all of us. But in the event that we do have to cut some characters, I’d like to apologize in advance to those fans.

It isn't a matter of ‘If the next game has 50 characters, that'll be enough…' There is a certain charm to games that have huge casts of playable characters, but they tend to have issues with game balance and it becomes very difficult to fine-tune each character and have them all feel distinctive.

He never mentioned Brawl (or X in Japan) being the Smash Bros. in specific that not every character would return from, only the series in general. I interpret this as meaning that not every character that's ever existed in the series, like Dr. Mario and Roy, will not return, not Brawl characters in specific. It makes more sense to say considering he's dropped hints before of how Mewtwo is being reconsidered and that in the event a Melee veteran is returning, he didn't want to get everyone's hopes up that all the Melee veterans are returning as well. In tandem of saying how it takes much longer to develop new characters as well as that they'd like to put in as many as they can yet 50 already seems to be the roster's limit, I think it makes the philosophy clear that Sakurai will place newcomers as a much lower priority this time around and will primarily focus on giving us Brawl's number of characters once again. That's where our rosters differ. Whereas you believe set characters will be cut for newer ones, I believe we'll receive an overall lesser amount of characters in order to accommodate all past characters from Brawl.

Ridley, Palutena, and Mewtwo all seem like extremely likely additions, and I don't think we can't argue with that. However, I'd rather have lower expectations and be wrong about less characters being added than have higher expectations and be wrong about more characters being added. Thus, we get room for one more newcomer that many will have to compete for to get a spot. King K. Rool, Dixie Kong, Waddle Dee, Chrom, Takamaru, Lip, Andy, Chibi-Robo, and Isaac seem like the characters with the next best chances, but each and every one of them hold some type of flaw in either being unnecessary, not a surge of popularity, or past their prime dates to be shown off. In order to keep with the idea that as many veterans will return as possible like Sakurai stated, I think only one newcomer besides the afore-listed three will make the cut. If someone else I didn't predict makes it instead, like Mii or Pac-Man, then they'd take up that spot instead.

So ye, neat roster. I see it as a darker alternative to mine.

 

[OcarinaOfDoom]

Interesting. I'll toss you a solid 7.5/10. First of all, it's a tad big; I feel you should hack a slot or two off of it for a bit more realism. Also, you played it a bit too safe for my liking--the only character that isn't really expected on your list is Roy. Those two complaints combine to form a bit of a problem--you have more slots than you should have, yet have less surprises than you should. I'd take out one of either Isaac, Shulk, or Takmaru and stick in someone less anticipated: a Saki, Chibi Robo, or Samurai Goroh type character.

Finally, as much as you may hate the idea, I consider both Miis and Pac-Man to have a very solid shot; I'd argue that at least one of the two will be getting in. For a prediction roster, having one of those two is definitely preferable.

I can really see the roster going anywhere from the size i'm at to a lower size of around 45 slots/49 chars. I think with the development time Sakurai has, a 13 character increase isn't a major reach.

Saki was definitely one character I was thinking about. Overall, I think this time, we may of gotten a lot of our surprises much earlier. WFT, Rosalina, and even Villager could be considered surprises, and that Sakurai may just be saving our more anticipated or popular reveals for a bit later.

On the subject of Pac-Man and Miis, I'm expecting Miis to be featured in a separate mode of sorts, while I'm still not fully sold on Pac-Man.

 

[dimensionsword64]

Oh yes, there is. Definitely. Certainly. Absolutely.

Tetra/Toon Zelda
Phantom Zelda/Toon Zelda
Skull Kid
Impa
Pig Ganon
Ghirahim (Yes, he was only in one game, yet he is far more memorable than Vaati will ever be)
Even Tingle is more deserving

I don't hate Vaati or anything, but he is just a random Zelda villain.

Tetra/Toon Zelda- Another clone.
Phantom Zelda/Toon Zelda- only in one game
Skull Kid- He's deconfimed. Why are you bringing him up?
Impa- Most of the time is just Zelda's nanny. Only important in two games.
Pig Ganon- Another Ganon.
Ghirahim- Only in one game, which isn't even the latest game.
Tingle- Not very popular

Whereas Vaati- recurring, relevant, unique, and important.

Edit: And Minish Cap is coming to the Virtual Console.

 

[Groose]

Not a bad set of predictions overall. In fact, despite sharing separate philosophies, our rosters are very much alike.
View attachment 8632
The first thing to note is that I don't believe cuts from Brawl are a thing. Here's two of Sakurai's quotes.


He never mentioned Brawl (or X in Japan) being the Smash Bros. in specific that not every character would return from, only the series in general. I interpret this as meaning that not every character that's ever existed in the series, like Dr. Mario and Roy, will not return, not Brawl characters in specific. It makes more sense to say considering he's dropped hints before of how Mewtwo is being reconsidered and that in the event a Melee veteran is returning, he didn't want to get everyone's hopes up that all the Melee veterans are returning as well. In tandem of saying how it takes much longer to develop new characters as well as that they'd like to put in as many as they can yet 50 already seems to be the roster's limit, I think it makes the philosophy clear that Sakurai will place newcomers as a much lower priority this time around and will primarily focus on giving us Brawl's number of characters once again. That's where our rosters differ. Whereas you believe set characters will be cut for newer ones, I believe we'll receive an overall lesser amount of characters in order to accommodate all past characters from Brawl.

Ridley, Palutena, and Mewtwo all seem like extremely likely additions, and I don't think we can't argue with that. However, I'd rather have lower expectations and be wrong about less characters being added than have higher expectations and be wrong about more characters being added. Thus, we get room for one more newcomer that many will have to compete for to get a spot. King K. Rool, Dixie Kong, Waddle Dee, Chrom, Takamaru, Lip, Andy, Chibi-Robo, and Isaac seem like the characters with the next best chances, but each and every one of them hold some type of flaw in either being unnecessary, not a surge of popularity, or past their prime dates to be shown off. In order to keep with the idea that as many veterans will return as possible like Sakurai stated, I think only one newcomer besides the afore-listed three will make the cut. If someone else I didn't predict makes it instead, like Mii or Pac-Man, then they'd take up that spot instead.

So ye, neat roster. I see it as a darker alternative to mine.

We'll never agree on the cuts thing. You have solid reasoning, I also have solid reasoning. So I won't mention that any further here. What I do think you should do is at least incorporate Miis into that question spot; I find them more likely than any single character in there.

Really, however, I don't have any real gripes with this. Your "No Cuts" roster works because you do "No Cuts" yet still keep the roster size down. 9.5/10.

Why do people think that there will be cuts from Brawl? Sakurai said not all of the fighters would return. Pichu, Dr. Mario, Roy, Young Link and Mewtwo fall into this catogory. Maybe even Plusle+Minun, Toon Zelda and Dixie Kong

When you think there will be cuts and there aren't any, you're happy.

When you think there won't be cuts and there are, you're not so happy.

That's one of my rules.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

So I was doing supporter list down for Lip and I got about 45 during all these times. I might say that I'm genuinely surprised.

Speaking of Lip, I've been wondering though, do you guys believe that with more recognizable or franchise-prominent characters like Wii Fit Trainer/Miss Fit and Little Mac, we shouldn't put much support on characters that seem to pale in comparison to these characters (in means of recognizability or uniqueness)?

Lastly do you consider Takamaru an exception for this?

 

[Sehnsucht]

Tetra/Toon Zelda- Another clone.
Phantom Zelda/Toon Zelda- only in one game
Skull Kid- He's deconfimed. Why are you bringing him up?
Impa- Most of the time is just Zelda's nanny. Only important in two games.
Pig Ganon- Another Ganon.
Ghirahim- Only in one game, which isn't even the latest game.
Tingle- Not very popular

Whereas Vaati- recurring, relevant, unique, and important.

Edit: And Minish Cap is coming to the Virtual Console.

It should perhaps be noted that Ghirahim was a prominent figure in the most recent console Zelda title; not to take away from the success of the handheld titles, but console titles are the ostensible meat and potatoes of the series. SS has already gotten representation via the Skyloft stage and the Beetle item. They've clearly been looking at SS; lifting Ghirahim from there is not entirely unfeasible.

Vaati's recurrence does work in his favour, however. And having another representative from the Toonverse would work to balance out the Main-Toon dichotomy in the Zelda roster. At this point, it's probably a three-way between Vaati, Ghirahim, and Tetra(/Toon Zelda/Phantom Knight/whatever). I agree that the rest don't have much chances (though Tingle is probably the Dark Horse).

I'm more familiar with console Zeldas than I am with handhelds***, so I know more about Ghirahim than I do Vaati. This probably accounts for why I prefer the former at the moment. But Vaati could be cool, given that like Ghirahim, he'd be a distinctive magic-heavy fighter.

I'm thinking that the most probable scenario is that one of them becomes playable, and the other becomes an AT (since they're both worthy of inclusion one way or another). That is, supposing we even get a Zelda Newcomer in the first place.

***I think I've only played Phantom Hourglass, and I didn't even beat it, whereas I've played all console Zelda games to completion.

 

[Manny Toons]

Tetra/Toon Zelda- Another clone.
Phantom Zelda/Toon Zelda- only in one game
Skull Kid- He's deconfimed. Why are you bringing him up?
Impa- Most of the time is just Zelda's nanny. Only important in two games.
Pig Ganon- Another Ganon.
Ghirahim- Only in one game, which isn't even the latest game.
Tingle- Not very popular

Whereas Vaati- recurring, relevant, unique, and important.

Edit: And Minish Cap is coming to the Virtual Console.

Dude has a huge following in Japan and his own series. How's that not popular?

 

[lightdasher]

People who want Roy, Pacman, Ridley and Miis infuriate me.

 

[Reila]

Tetra/Toon Zelda- Another clone.
Phantom Zelda/Toon Zelda- only in one game
Skull Kid- He's deconfimed. Why are you bringing him up?
Impa- Most of the time is just Zelda's nanny. Only important in two games.
Pig Ganon- Another Ganon.
Ghirahim- Only in one game, which isn't even the latest game.
Tingle- Not very popular

Whereas Vaati- recurring, relevant, unique, and important.

Edit: And Minish Cap is coming to the Virtual Console.

Sorry, but I lost any will of discussing this subject when you said Toon Zelda/Tetra would be another clone. It isn't worth the effort. lol

 

[SuperBrawler]

Tetra/Toon Zelda- Another clone.
Phantom Zelda/Toon Zelda- only in one game
Skull Kid- He's deconfimed. Why are you bringing him up?
Impa- Most of the time is just Zelda's nanny. Only important in two games.
Pig Ganon- Another Ganon.
Ghirahim- Only in one game, which isn't even the latest game.
Tingle- Not very popular

Whereas Vaati- recurring, relevant, unique, and important.

Edit: And Minish Cap is coming to the Virtual Console.

Not being popular isn't a good reason, while Tingle is recurring, unique, and important. Also Tingle is also in Minish Cap. Also being acknowledged by Sakurai by being an AT.

 

[Ruthy]

People who want Roy, Pacman, Ridley and Miis infuriate me.

Honestly I see no reason not to include Miis.

 

[FalKoopa]

People who want Roy, Pacman, Ridley and Miis infuriate me.

Well, you are in the minority here then. Hope you don't get caught up in a fight.

By the way, Toon Zelda being a clone makes sense, but I don't see Tetra becoming a clone. Ever

 

[The Nerd]

Groose's February 2014 Prediction Roster

Music to listen to as you critique: Samus Aran's Theme Orchestral
I listened to this music three times as I made the roster, and I think it should get you in the mood as I read my reasoning.
​

This is my prediction roster. It is not a roster a that I necessarily want or consider ideal, but the one I feel has the highest chance of happening. There may be one or two areas where my preferences clouded my judgement (K. Rool, Ridley), and there may be one or two places where my roster has been influenced by the opinion of the masses (Pokemon Representation), but I have tried to make this as logical and personal as possible. I would like some objective, critical feedback; please try not to let your own ideal situations interfere in your critique.

​

1) 45 Slots/49 Movesets. This is always my predicted roster size--feasibly, I suppose the roster it could get a little larger, but I never get my expectations up above 45 slots/50 movesets. That way, I won't be so bitterly disappointed if it turns out we get low 40's.

2) Three Cuts: R.O.B., Lucas, and Wolf.

• I feel that a few cuts are inevitable because Sakurai said that "not all characters would return." Plus, expecting cuts and receiving none is better than expecting none and receiving some.

• Wolf was my first cut. He was last minute in Brawl, and probably will not be very high-priority this time, either. Part of his moveset could be given to Falco.

• Lucas was my second cut. I just couldn't find enough room for both him and Ness on the roster, and Ness has seniority now.

• R.O.B. was not originally supposed to be cut, but I had miscounted and included 46 slots instead of 45. I had to make a cut to fit in with my guiding rule. I feel this may be symbolic--they will try to include R.O.B., but time constraints may very well get to him.

• Snake is notably not cut. I feel like Sakurai will want him in there, and I don't think Nintendo has enough cards to stop him. Still, when I realized I overshot my intended roster size, I was torn between cutting him or R.O.B., and I chose the former. Snake is the next character I would cut.

• Neither Sheik nor ZSS will be cut, and Pokemon Trainer's Pokemon remain the same.

3) 13 Newcomers: Villager, Mega Man, Wii Fit Trainer, Rosalina, Little Mac, K. Rool, Waddle Dee, Ridley, Palutena, Chibi Robo, Mewtwo, Pac-Man, Mii.

• K. Rool is in, Dixie is not. I feel like we would have seen Dixie already if she were in--it would have made so much sense top promote Tropical Freeze. The closer to launch we get, the more likely a late-reveal K. Rool seems.

• Waddle Dee is in. We haven't seen the Waddle Dee Toss yet, and I can think of only two reasons for this: it's either still being worked on or it's been removed, perhaps in favor of a playable Dee. Still, I chose him mostly for balancing the roster--he's that one character who isn't top-tier in requests and isn't widely expected, but isn't completely outside the realm of discussion.

• Ridley is in. Sakurai's been teasing us with the Pyrosphere all along. Personally, I still think it could go either way, but I refuse to make a roster without him.

• Palutena is in. Not only do I believe the leak (hence why I used that image for her face on the roster), but I also feel she has a really good shot even if it's not true. She may be the newest member, but she is one of the "Super Six" of popular requests.

• Chibi-Robo. Yeah. I'm still expecting one more "surprise-type" character, and he's one I just have this hunch about. I considered Dillon, Ray, Tingle, and more for this spot, but I ultimately went with this hunch of mine.

• Mewtwo. The only thing noteworthy with this pick is that I'm treating him as a newcomer. I think they'll at least make a trailer for him.

• Pac-Man. Pac-Man has fallen out of favor with predictions rosters recently, but I feel he's among the most likely newcomers. I don't think Sakurai would be able to reject him if Bandai asked for him, and I'd be surprised if Bandai didn't ask for a character. When this is combined with the Sal Romano prediction (which I feel has a good shot at having credibility), I just couldn't refrain from putting him on my prediction roster.

• Miis. Miis are the closest thing we have to a shoo-in newcomer, in my eyes. They're icons of Nintendo more well known any characters we're considering, save perhaps Pac-Man. Even Mewtwo is probably less recognizable than a Mii nowadays. Add in the customization statements and the fact that the reasoning they weren't on past Smash games is now completely null, and they really seem likely. They may be absolutely despised by the majority of more devoted, mature Smashers, but among younger, newer Smashers they're a top-tier request. I feel Sakurai will try to please that crowd in some way, and adding Miis would be a better path than adding Shadow the Hedgehog, Goku or Spongebob. I used Reggie's Mii as the image, but I expect customization. If the Mii slot has an image at all, I expect it will either be Miyamoto's face or Reggie's face; I went with Reggie here because I think they will go there and use that joke.

4) Considered and Rejected Ideas

• Ike was cut for Chrom when I wrote out my roster, but I changed this last minute before I uploaded the image. Ike could very well be cut to cater to the many new Fire Emblem fans, but I don't think Sakurai would give up on him so easily. Let's just say that if DLC were to happen after development, I'd be expecting a Fire Emblem character.

• Shulk was one of the characters I initially wanted to include, but he just couldn't make the final cut. I'd say that if I had to increase my roster size to 48 slots, he'd probably make the cut.

• I considered adding a new "retro" character (of which the leading candidate was Takamaru), but I just didn't quite fit it in. I ultimately reasoned that Little Mac could be deemed enough of a revival... and joked that King K. Rool could be considered one as well Huge DK fan and K. Rool supporter here: it was a joke, don't shoot me!

• As I mentioned before, I briefly considered adding a few other characters like Dillon, Ray, Tingle, Takamaru, and also Isaac, Impa, Tetra, and Dixie, but none of them were in serious contention like Shulk or Chrom.

5) My Doubts and Uncertainties

• Pokemon Series Cast--in the end, I went with what is widely expected, but my gut tells me we may see a bit of a shakeup there. I caved, and I'm not sure that it was the right thing to do.

• Lack of a Retro/Historical character. I think Little Mac could classify (especially so after watching his trailer), but I still fear that there will be a second classic character that I failed to include.

• Too many newcomers--I've long predicted between six and twelve newcomer for this game, yet I just included thirteen. I fear that I overshot in that regard, and this is made worse in that it means I now expect too many newcomers, and am bound for disappointment in that regard.

• Snake. I'm leaning towards in, but it's very close and I very nearly cut him.

Whew. There you have it. This is probably the final prediction roster I'll make, and from now on I'll just edit this one as necessary. I'm hoping that your feedback will enable me to make some edits soon, but remember: my expectations are my expectations, and it will take a good argument to change them.

This is the first roster in a while I've had an actual opinion on, and if you don't mind I'd like to throw my two cents in on the matter.

First: Epic choice in music, very nice. If only this would play on the character selection screen! *laughs*

To business! First of all your cuts; I think Wolf and Falco are fairly interchangeable, we'll get one and not the other. I think from a design perspective Wolf's Brawl moveset was more interesting and unique, and so I'd prefer him over Falco. That being said, it's such a small point that it barely warrants writing down. I agree with Lucas, and I'm sorely tempted to cut Snake out. 2/35 characters were 3rd party in Brawl; assuming this is a reasonable percentage I would argue at absolute most 3/45 seems reasonable. So either Pac-Man or Snake should go. Again I have no strong feelings on either.

R.O.B. is not a character I can see being cut for a variety of reasons; first of all he has his moment in Nintendo history, and secondly he is the closest we will get to a character from Smash given his massive importance in SSE. I've always considered him essentially a unique character in that story, as he's the only one with a truly invented personality. I'm very tempted to say you should include him.

Now for newcomers:

I have no real stake in the argument between Dixie and K. Rool, I prefer K. Rool but some illogical gut feeling tells me we'll get Dixie. Either way, I mentally treat them as equivalent, and I think it'll just come down to who Sakurai feels would be better in the game.

Waddle Dee is a character I have a huge amount of mixed feelings on. Frankly speaking, I like Kirby as a franchise but have never liked playing Kirby characters in Brawl; they are too floaty to me. So understand I am slightly biased. That being said, I do not think a fourth Kirby rep is likely. Sakurai has been known to avoid over-representing his own series in the past; I sincerely believe he put both Meta Knight and King D3 in Brawl because he thinks D3 > MK but the fan demand for Meta Knight made him feel he had to include Meta Knight. I like him as a character, don't get me wrong, but I don't think he's more likely than a decent set of characters on the roster. In particular, it feels odd to remove Lucas, the main protagonist of 1/3 of his series, to add Waddle Dee, very much a side character for almost all of his series. Also, a spear user is thematically interesting, but a character who's somewhat fast and uses disjointed hitboxes with a sweet spot to hit their opponents at some range has been done before.

Ridley is, for me, impossible to say. He was the only truly glaring omission from Brawl and people have been essentially asking for him since pre-Melee. I'd like to see him in, but I have this sneaking suspicion it won't happen. That being said I'd leave him; he's off and on in my rosters as well.

As a fellow believer of the Palutena leak and someone who hasn't played Kid Icarus enough to care or do more research on it (I don't like Pit in Brawl) I just shrug and assume she's in. She looks fun and Staff/Shield is a cool combo.

Chibi Robo is one I don't understand because I don't know enough about the franchise. I do believe that we will have a surprise character, but whether or not they should be included would, for me, be entirely based on how "unique" the character could be said. Again, I must proclaim ignorance in how they might function. Would they truly be unique? If not then I would argue against them.

I've already said my bit on Pac Man and I view Mii as an inevitable character. The boards here are against them because the concept of a Mii was never really meant for them to begin with. They were a huge hit with the casual crowd and a lot of people still view Miis as an integral part of Nintendo's platforms. I think Sakurai knows this and must have made some sort of plan for them.


Other characters worth considering.

OK, I should get this out of the way now. I've only ever played two fire emblem games, the DS remake of the first and the newest, Fire Emblem Awakening. I didn't really particularly enjoy the DS one I played, but I really enjoyed Fire Emblem Awakening. I, and I suspect many others who picked up Fire Emblem Awakening as their first FE game, will be very confused and disappointed if we did not get some sort of representation. I honestly think people who don't think Chrom will be in are kidding themselves; he's one of the most popular lords ever in the franchise. Will Ike get cut for him? No idea. But I really think Chrom will be in. I'm fairly open to the premise of Chrom + Lucina or Chrom + Robin because teaming up was such a huge deal in that game but Chrom will be playable in some form.

Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer Robin myself as I think Smash needs more spellcasters and Robin has a cool design and personality. My preferences unfortunately do not match well with reality and Chrom seems an inevitability to me. Insanely popular, well designed, and the lord to more or less save his franchise. He is one of the few characters that would legitimately shock me if he was not in the game in some form. (Aside: I'm personally hoping from Chrom + Lucina, as Lucina is so badass.)

Please note I'm not advocating for Ike to be cut; he occupies a really nice design space and a lot of my friends would be really sad to see him go. I think they are the three we will get.

Alright, Fire Emblem out of the way.

I'll look at pokemon next: I agree that we're not getting that set but predicting the set we do get is going to be a lot harder. Mewtwo seems safe, but I'm very unsure about Pokemon Trainer. To my knowledge he has a very small Smash fanbase and two of his pokemon, Squirtle and Ivysaur, are not really *that* iconic in the grand scheme of things. That being said, I'll be shocked if Charizard is cut. So I guess I would advocate Charizard as a solo character with a retooled moveset to reflect the fact he's no longer 1/3 a character. Is that the only shock up? No idea. I have this weird feeling Jiggs will get cut in favor of some new fairy type (Sylveon or Gardevoir) but I'm *really* hoping that isn't the case. I could also see us randomly getting Blaziken or Victini or some foolishness like that. I'll pay lip service to Zoroark, but I really can't see it for some reason.

I really think we'll see a retro character. Don't ask me which as I'm hilariously biased; if I was given the ability to insert any one character, my runner up would be Mach Rider. (My first pick would be Skull Kid T_T). Takamaru and Lip seem likely candidates for this role as well. I don't see the others outside of Duck Hunt Dog as a joke, and even then he'd be better as an assist trophy.

Shulk, Isaac, and co are cool characters I would like to see and I could see one of them making it in, but you've sort of run out of room at this point so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Finally, I feel the need to point out that with every character released outside of WFT they've been very unique and even WFT looks somewhat unique although I suspect in execution she will play more similarly to other characters on the roster. I would pour over your set and try to determine if any of them are not terribly unique and consider trying to remove them in favor of more unique characters. For example, Pac Man is very much a blank canvas such that it is hard to imagine him having any unique or interesting abilities. Waddle Dee inhabits a space similar to Meta Knight/Marth/Kirby in aspects of his design character. Chibi Robo and R.O.B. might step on each other's toes. I also use this to predict who will be cut somewhat as Lucas and Ness inhabit a very similar space in terms of moves and design and the space animals are in a similar boat. It's also part of the potential reason I think Jiggs might go; she inhabits a space very similar to kirby in momentum and moveset possibilities. I know that in most games they've been seen as decently different but they are more close to each to each other than most characters. Luigi/Mario and Link/TLink can be brought up at this point with gusto, but I feel that Luigi is far more important than Jiggs to his series and Link vs Toon Link occupy oddly different design spaces in the games, with Link being a slower juggernaut with an arsenal of impressive weapons and heavy hitting sword attacks (In theory) with Toon Link being more of a skirmishing harasser that has impressive mobility and decent combos with only the occasional really devastating attack.

At the end of the day I really like your roster, despite the above. If it were to be the final roster in game I'd be more or less content, barring a lack of FE Awakening rep and retro.

 

[lightdasher]

Well, you are in the minority here then. Hope you don't get caught up in a fight.

Knowing my luck I probably will, and the entire forum will gang up on me telling me why I am wrong and should jump off a cliff or something, it's what normally happens.

What are the chances of any of the characters in my signature making it do you think?

 

[Reila]

People who want Roy, Pacman, Ridley and Miis infuriate me.

Why people wanting characters they like infuriate you? I don't understand.