Character Discussion Thread

[Autumn ♫]

I think the introduction of Lucina shows that Sakurai got done early with all the characters, which would imply Lucas and Wolf both made it back. So, I'm expecting a few last-minute clones now, like in Melee.

 

[Morbi]

There are some things that I'm bothered with by you as well, but I truly think it's best to just drop it. To be honest, half of it is most likely opinion. I mean, I don't think anyone can ever have a prediction without some bias. And this is from a Lucas main. So, yeah, I think some is my prediction, and I will not be sad if they return, I just think they could be if we have cuts, simply due to the fact that they are the newest to the series, from Brawl, and would leave over staple clones like, say, Falco and Ganondorf.

And yes, I know Wolf is not a full-on clone, but I do believe sharing generally the same set of special moves, just reworked, and a similar final smash implies that they used Fox as a base, in my opinion.

Stop directly addressing me as an individual as opposed to my arguments. If you have a personal problem with me, send me a PM and we can resolve it there, please stop ambiguously alluding to it.

If you are going to drop it, drop it. You have stated that three or four times as of current.

I do agree with this sentiment, everyone is inherently biased, including myself.

I would not assert that they use Fox as a base, rather, they continued to use "Arwing" as a base which is consistent throughout the series.

 

[TumblrFamous]

I think the introduction of Lucina shows that Sakurai got done early with all the characters, which would imply Lucas and Wolf both made it back. So, I'm expecting a few last-minute clones now, like in Melee.

Dixie perhaps? I would hope she would be a unique fighter, but if she was not planned for the initial roster, she could get in as a last-minute semi-clone.

Hey, who knows? Maybe he purposely added Lucina as a clone.

 

[Deleted member]

I do not understand, why is it relevant that he is a Japanese-exclusive character? I thought that that was irrelevant as we have had Japanese-exclusive characters prior. Is it arbitrarily important now that he is the only one?

Sakurai claimed in Brawl's development that due to Smash being an internationally released series that it was "difficult" to include characters exclusive to the Japanese region though noted that he was not entirely opposed to it due to the success of Marth and Roy in Melee.
Being Japan-exclusive almost cost them being in international releases of Melee, and if it weren't for the fact they became popular with international fans during localization, they would have been axed.

When the roster for Brawl was "finalized" July 7th, 2005, Mother 3 hadn't even come out in Japan yet (wouldn't be released until April 20th, 2006); it was still in development.
It stands to reason that Sakurai didn't expect Lucas to stay within Japan's walls when he added him to the roster.

With Marth no longer being Japan-exclusive due to Shadow Dragon and Roy being cut in Brawl, Lucas is the only one left. From an "old" (8 years) GBA title. The issue didn't really come up with Brawl, but it can potentially strike a problem now.

 

[Morbi]

Dixie perhaps? I would hope she would be a unique fighter, but if she was not planned for the initial roster, she could get in as a last-minute semi-clone.

Hey, who knows? Maybe he purposely added Lucina as a clone.

I doubt he accidentally included Lucina as a clone. That would be quite the over-sight.

 

[Bowserlick]

I can see Dixie being similar to Diddy with some moves and utilizing her hair for others such as smashes and a special or two.

* And of course having her hair spin glide as a mechanic or tacked on a special.

 

[TumblrFamous]

I doubt he accidentally included Lucina as a clone. That would be quite the over-sight.

Well, I simply meant as part of the initial roster.

 

[Pizzanigs]

To sum up the paragraph I made, I think Lucas and Wolf (and possibly Jigglypuff) are going to get cut in favor of relevant characters (for veteran franchises) like (Mewtwo), Dark Pit, and Dixie. Moveset-based reasons are probably not the reasons they are getting cut though.

LOL at Dark Pit. I still don't know why people think Mewtwo and Jigglypuff can't coexist.

 

[Morbi]

Sakurai claimed in Brawl's development that due to Smash being an internationally released series that it was "difficult" to include characters exclusive to the Japanese region though noted that he was not entirely opposed to it due to the success of Marth and Roy in Melee.
Being Japan-exclusive almost cost them being in international releases of Melee, and if it weren't for the fact they became popular with international fans during localization, they would have been axed.

When the roster for Brawl was "finalized" July 7th, 2005, Mother 3 hadn't even come out in Japan yet (wouldn't be released until April 20th, 2006); it was still in development.
It stands to reason that Sakurai didn't expect Lucas to stay within Japan's walls when he added him to the roster.

With Marth no longer being Japan-exclusive due to Shadow Dragon and Roy being cut in Brawl, Lucas is the only one left. From an "old" (8 years) GBA title. The issue didn't really come up with Brawl, but it can potentially strike a problem now.

I suppose I can see why your point would be cause for concern; hopefully his status as a veteran takes precedence, as in his own way, he is an international character.

 

[Niala]

I thought Lucas shared more than half his moves with Ness, though.
Unless you are trying to say that he will be further differentiated from Ness in this game.

He doesn't quite share half, actually. Pk Fire, Pk Thunder, PSI Magnet, up air, FSmash, and KIND OF down tilt. Oh, and if you really want to count it, Final Smash. That's it. A lot of people are under the impression that Lucas and Ness share a lot more than they actually do.

 

[BluePikmin11]

LOL at Dark Pit. I still don't know why people think Mewtwo and Jigglypuff can't coexist.

They could (That's why I said possibly), but if it comes to only 5 characters Mewtwo probably will take priority over her.

 

[Weeman]

They could (That's why I said possibly), but if it comes to only 5 characters Mewtwo probably will take priority over her.

It's true that Jiggs isn't that relevant in the games (or the show) anymore, but the thing with her is that she has kept her relevancy in Smash Bros. proven that she outprioritized Mewtwo in Brawl, so who knows if Sakurai is willing to let her go, considering he said she was easy to program.

 

[Kenith]

They could (That's why I said possibly), but if it comes to only 5 characters Mewtwo probably will take priority over her.

If it comes down to Mewtwo or Jigglypuff, it would still be both.

Jigglypuff started out a semi-clone of Kirby, after all. She can't be that hard to make.

 

[Xenorange]

Personally I still feel the 47 + random is the roster we are getting,
The leak may be discredited some but I don't think that's reason to believe the roster will soar beyond 50, especially considering what Sakurai recently said about reaching the bottom of the barrel. I think we will see 1 more newcomer trailer, 2 more veteran reveals. And one maybe two hidden newcomers depending on cuts, which right now my gut tells me, (sadly) Lucas, Snake, Squirtle, Ivysaur, and possibly Wolf is cut.

Good luck with that.

 

[Morbi]

If it comes down to Mewtwo or Jigglypuff, it would still be both.

Jigglypuff started out a semi-clone of Kirby, after all. She can't be that hard to make.

People only expected three Fire Emblem characters, we have four.

People only expect five Pokemon characters (despite the notion that we were intended to have seven in Brawl).
... Pokemon will have six characters (at the least).

The slot argument is not relevant.

 

[Rockaphin]

You're joking, right?
Paper Mario is just as much Mario as Dr. Mario is. At least Dr. Mario is an actual alter ego while "Paper Mario" is just Mario in the paper artstyle.

True, however he's shown to have far more abilities in his own games compared to Dr. Mario. Paper Mario is literally Mario but paper, but what us supporters want is the content from the games. Doc is cool and all, but I find Paper Mario's games and abilities more appealing.

 

[Andinus]

Good luck with that.

umm, K.. well whatever you are referring to if you think the roster is going to go beyond 50, then I wish you all the luck it takes to win the lottery.

 

[TumblrFamous]

umm, K.. well whatever you are referring to if you think the roster is going to go beyond 50, then I wish you all the luck it takes to win the lottery.

It's not that unlikely to have a roster over 50. Most people are predicting 48-54 characters.

 

[Xenorange]

umm, K.. well whatever you are referring to if you think the roster is going to go beyond 50, then I wish you all the luck it takes to win the lottery.

Thanks man, honestly though, I don't think I'll need much luck.

 

[Deleted member]

I suppose I can see why your point would be cause for concern; hopefully his status as a veteran takes precedence, as in his own way, he is an international character.

I fear that Lucas might be seen as a simple marketing tool considering he was decided for the Brawl roster almost a full year before his game would be released for no other reason than being previously planned as a Ness replacement. Especially with Brawl being heavily Mother 3-centered when it came to Mother content.

With Earthbound being hyped up again because of the Virtual Console release (especially because it actually was international which it was feared it wouldn't be), no Mother 3 in sight (at this point in time), the particular circumstances of why Lucas was even in Smash to begin with, and to top it all off, Lucas being from a Japan-exclusive release, I feel there may be high chance of us saying "Sayonara!" to him.
I dunno, I'm just kind of pessimistic about the whole thing.

Which is why I'm holding out for his reveal and/or the announcement of an international Virtual Console release for Mother 3 to ease my pessimism.

 

[Andinus]

It's not that unlikely to have a roster over 50. Most people are predicting 48-54 characters.

Yeah, i really would not bet the farm on it.. Sakurai has always talked about the roster being more limited and implied it will be less expansive than previous titles, I originally underestimated the roster size in terms of what I believed he was saying (perhaps Namco did change his mind a bit), but over 50 really still seems like just a pipe dream to me still, since there is really nothing more than hope and hype supporting it.

 

[BluePikmin11]

It's true that Jiggs isn't that relevant in the games (or the show) anymore, but the thing with her is that she has kept her relevancy in Smash Bros. proven that she outprioritized Mewtwo in Brawl, so who knows if Sakurai is willing to let her go, considering he said she was easy to program.

Yeah, the 3-time veteran status will most likely have her kept in Smash 4, if there isn't any more relevant filler-clone Sakurai wants to add. Although I still think she's somewhere in low priority.

Also I got a new question for you guys, do you think the priority list based on relevancy (for veteran franchises getting newcomers at least this time in Smash 4. Franchises that only represented by one character don't count as an argument because I think Sakurai won't cut a Nintendo franchise that had a character in previous installments.

 

[Kenith]

Assuming Ness and Lucas are both in, which I am, I think that they should be redesigned to look more like the clay models of them.

For reference, this is what they look like

I don't want them to look just like this, obviously, but some subtle changes would be cool.

 

[Xenorange]

Yeah, i really would not bet the farm on it.. Sakurai has always talked about the roster being more limited and implied it will be less expansive than previous titles, I originally underestimated the roster size in terms of what I believed he was saying (perhaps Namco did change his mind a bit), but over 50 really still seems like just a pipe dream to me still, since there is really nothing more than hope and hype supporting it.

Sakurai says a lot of things.

 

[Deleted member]

Ness not being fat at this point would be heresy.

 

[Andinus]

Sakurai says a lot of things.

So that means everything he says must be bupkis.. great reasoning there..

 

[lobotheduck21]

Yeah, i really would not bet the farm on it.. Sakurai has always talked about the roster being more limited and implied it will be less expansive than previous titles, I originally underestimated the roster size in terms of what I believed he was saying (perhaps Namco did change his mind a bit), but over 50 really still seems like just a pipe dream to me still, since there is really nothing more than hope and hype supporting it.

Sakurai said villager was peaceful

He doesn't quite share half, actually. Pk Fire, Pk Thunder, PSI Magnet, up air, FSmash, and KIND OF down tilt. Oh, and if you really want to count it, Final Smash. That's it. A lot of people are under the impression that Lucas and Ness share a lot more than they actually do.

Cross of PK Fire and PK Thunder, they are only similar in name

 

[Kenith]

Ness not being fat at this point would be heresy.

It's mostly the cool dude hair and eyebrows I want.

 

[The Nerd]

I fear that Lucas might be seen as a simple marketing tool considering he was decided for the Brawl roster almost a full year before his game would be released for no other reason than being previously planned as a Ness replacement. Especially with Brawl being heavily Mother 3-centered when it came to Mother content.

With Earthbound being hyped up again because of the Virtual Console release (especially because it actually was international which it was feared it wouldn't be), no Mother 3 in sight (at this point in time), the particular circumstances of why Lucas was even in Smash to begin with, and to top it all off, Lucas being from a Japan-exclusive release, I feel there may be high chance of us saying "Sayonara!" to him.
I dunno, I'm just kind of pessimistic about the whole thing.

Which is why I'm holding out for his reveal and/or the announcement of an international Virtual Console release for Mother 3 to ease my pessimism.

Curse you for bringing a perfectly logical, compelling argument as to why Lucas could be cut. I felt relatively safe in ignoring those who claimed he would be once Ike, TLink, and Lucario were revealed, and then you go ahead and do this. Curse you!

I think it's important to consider the amount of resources characters take when they are being built; in Melee it was a deciding factor for six characters, five of which made it in and one of which was shafted until Brawl. In 64 it is likely it was a deciding factor for Jiggs, who could share some animations with Kirby. I fully believe that, given past evidence, Sakurai will decide to attempt to reuse resources already in the game. This is just good sense from a programming perspective, and while I was already fairly convinced of it Lucina's state made me even more so. On one hand, it spells ill for Ganondorf if he can borrow from Captain Falcon again. On the other hand, I'm pretty convinced that part of the reason we have three Starfox characters is because they can reuse many assets. It is much easier to modify something that already exists to create something new than it is to build something from scratch; I suspect some of Wolf & Falco fall under this catagory.

Because of this, I suspect we will see both Mewtwo and Jiggs. Jiggs can borrow a *lot* from Kirby; their models are very similar, and some of their moves originally shared animation. FSmash and DSmash off the top of my head, along with their jumping animations. Making Jiggs out of kirby is quite easy when compared to making Mewtwo at all. I sincerely *hope* that Lucas falls in this catagory; they are semi-clones, but they share a lot of assets so building one should make building the other cheaper than building something brand new from scratch. After all, they share a similar face and body type, along with some animations. It could happen.

 

[Deleted member]

It's mostly the cool dude hair and eyebrows I want.

I guess the hair's ok, but eyebrows?

Nononononononono......eyebrows are part of why Lucas looks weird to me compared to Ness......

Also, that clay model of Ness you posted? That's for American artwork.
Ness actually looks in Smash as he does in the original clay model:

Er, just so you know.

EDIT: Smaller image.

 

[Bowserlick]

I want clay Ness.

 

[Kenith]

I guess the hair's ok, but eyebrows?

Nononononononono......eyebrows are part of why Lucas looks weird to me compared to Ness......

Also, that clay model of Ness you posted? That's for American artwork.
Ness actually looks in Smash as he does in the original clay model:

Er, just so you know.

EDIT: Smaller image.

I completely forgot about that.
I also forgot how...unfaithful to the original the American promotional material was.

"This game stinks!"

Still, that hair.

 

[The Light Music Club]

So let's see:

Brawl Main list was:
1. Pikachu
2. Game and Watch
3. Falco
Cycle of useable: Pokemon Trainer, Marth, Wolf, Ike, (Toon Link sorta)

Right now for Smash 4:
1. Palutena
2. Robin
3. Pikachu
Cycle: Lucina, Ike, maybe Charizard.

I wasn't too excited for the game because the only newcomer I liked was Palutena, and I wasn't thinking about buying the game if the mixture of Pacman, Mii, and Chrom were playable. Now that the combination won't be, I have higher hopes for this game.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Ness not being fat at this point would be heresy.

You can't ignore Ness' girth?

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I don't get why Wolf would be cut for being irrelevant, seeing how he's not. He's basically as irrelevant as Fox and Falco, I mean their last game was back in 2011, sure it was a remake, but so was OoT 3D which is being represented in Smash.

 

[Deleted member]

I completely forgot about that.
I also forgot how...unfaithful to the original the American promotional material was.

"This game stinks!"

Still, that hair.

Also, I did a little research.
Apparently, there are no official clay models for Mother 3 characters (hence why Brawl uses sprites for their Stickers).
That model of Lucas you have for example? Done by a fan by the name of "Flint" (yes, after the character).
http://starmen.net/fanart/galleriesm3.php?ret=nothing&box22605FirstLetter=F

Here's "Lucas 2.0" by the same artist:

 

[Kenith]

Also, I did a little research.
Apparently, there are no official clay models for Mother 3 characters (hence why Brawl uses sprites for their Stickers).
That model of Lucas you have for example? Done by a fan by the name of "Flint" (yes, after the character).
http://starmen.net/fanart/galleriesm3.php?ret=nothing&box22605FirstLetter=F

Here's "Lucas 2.0" by the same artist:

Hm...I saw them everywhere, I figured they were official.
Guess that explains why they looked so...weird.

Anyway, I guess the only thing we could consistently based their models on are the sprites, and Ness's clay model.

 

[Deleted member]

Hm...I saw them everywhere, I figured they were official.
Guess that explains why they looked so...weird.

Anyway, I guess the only thing we could consistently based their models on are the sprites, and Ness's clay model.

Precisely.

Though considering Sakurai only had Lucas' sprites to go by (unless the artist for Mother 3 provided him a rough sketch), I think he did a good job turning
this:

to this:

 

[BluePikmin11]

I don't get why Wolf would be cut for being irrelevant, seeing how he's not. He's basically as irrelevant as Fox and Falco, I mean their last game was back in 2011, sure it was a remake, but so was OoT 3D which is being represented in Smash.

Star Fox is already character represented, so it's no surprise that Fox is back, so I don't think you can use Fox as an argument, I'd like to think that Falco was added due to the continuous Star-Fox releases and it's popularity pre-Brawl. You do bring up a really great point about Starfox 64 3D, but for some reason I feel like that doesn't really count.

 

[Xenorange]

So that means everything he says must be bupkis.. great reasoning there..

What was meant by my previous statement was that Sakurai contradicts himself rather often. Be it the Pacman contradiction, the villager contradiction or the clone contradiction. The man changes his mind. I'm not sure what statement of his you were referring too in the previous post but Sakurai may have made said statement before he enlisted help from Namco. Who knows?