Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Pazzo.]

Character Competitive Impressions. This doesn't apply to either FFAs or Chess. Just go to a new topic.

On that note, can the topic NOT be duck hunt or Ryu? I see them on every other page if we aren't talking about chess. I would like to partake in other discussions, and I'm hopefully not the only one.

Tourneys, Teirs, Theories and Tactics...

Any suggestions?

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Tourneys, Teirs, Theories and Tactics...

Any suggestions?

A character not talked about much, current meta, polarizing MUs, etc. We cycle through the exactcsane discussions and it would be nice to change it.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

How about Peach?

 

[Locke 06]

Uh-huh... And collectively ****ing off the competitive Smash fanbase isn't something they'd do. They'd never say it.

In what way, shape or form is FFAs suffering for 1v1's balance? Probably none. How much more balanced would 1v1s be if they actually, yaknow, fixed the core problems of characters like Sheik and Jigglypuff? Quite a bit, and for the most part it wouldn't be hard.

Really, where's this gigantic leap in logic I'm making? I've brought this up at least twenty times and nobody's answered.

The logic in saying "I think smash 4 is balanced for FFA" is fine. Your opinion is valid, and you bring up points of "balance."

The logic in using "they didn't say they didn't do prioritize FFA balance" to support "Smash 4 prioritizes FFA balanced [fact]" is irrational.

The truth is, we don't know the developer's intention unless we talk to the developer. And even then, they could lie to us, we can choose not to believe them, and you're still stuck at square 1.

Pro tip for life: you never truly know someone's intentions, even if you ask them.


I'd be interested in more SDI talk. Because if you can SDI that hard out of Ryu's light dtilt, why don't we see more people SDI out of things like Diddy's dtilt>up smash?... Or SDI out of multi-hits in general?

Is this what to expect from smash 4 years down the road is better SDI? (Lol Zelda)

 

[C0rvus]

How much does SDI affect Meta Knight's up air chains? Is there a way out perhaps? Could ruin the character if so.

 

[Jamurai]

There was a set between ZeRo and a very good MK player called Sect at some regional recently. Unfortunately I can't seem to find the match on YouTube. Anyway, Sect hit ZeRo with a Shuttle Loop OOS when ZeRo was at like 120%, which anyone knows should end in a stock. However, he actually lived. This is due to a combination of the fact that Shuttle Loop wasn't fresh and also ZeRo's DI.

Sect spoke to ZeRo after the match and relayed to us what he said. Basically he SDI'd both Shuttle Loop hits downward and then DI'd the final hit away. Even if Shuttle Loop wasn't fresh I would expect it to kill from the ground at 120%, but it seems the SDI saved him. It's definitely not irrelevant like the general player base seems to think (including myself), it's like everyone just forgot that it was a thing.

I remember ZeRo SDI'd out of Nairo's Fsmash once which turned a game, I think that may have been at EVO.

EDIT: As for Uair combos, I don't think SDI will help you much, but if the MK is not that consistent it may be the difference between dying and just about making them drop the combo; worth a try basically.

 

[Lavani]

I'd be interested in more SDI talk. Because if you can SDI that hard out of Ryu's light dtilt, why don't we see more people SDI out of things like Diddy's dtilt>up smash?... Or SDI out of multi-hits in general?

A lot of multihits use autolinks that require you to have an understanding of where the attack's going to send you in order to successfully SDI out. Taking the custom Twisting Fox as an example, it can be SDI'd out of, but you need to mash hard in the direction the first hit launches you to get out of range before the second hit can suck you back in.not even going to bother posting my gif of it, you can barely tell what's going on with all the camera shaking

How much does SDI affect Meta Knight's up air chains? Is there a way out perhaps? Could ruin the character if so.

I don't think there's a guaranteed way out per se, but the more you force MK to follow your movement in the air the better your odds of surviving so it doesn't hurt to try.

 

[Locke 06]

A lot of multihits use autolinks that require you to have an understanding of where the attack's going to send you in order to successfully SDI out. Taking the custom Twisting Fox as an example, it can be SDI'd out of, but you need to mash hard in the direction the first hit launches you to get out of range before the second hit can suck you back in.not even going to bother posting my gif of it, you can barely tell what's going on with all the camera shaking

So, do you think eventually people will learn to understand autolinks and SDI out?

Spoiler: my answer

Personally, I think that because the autolinks are well done, it's too difficult to SDI out in most cases even with perfect understanding. For instance, I know Mega/MK falling BAir 1&2 will autolink angle you downwards, but even if I SDI down with it, I probably won't get enough to avoid the subsequent hits. (Also, most multi-hits have .3x SDI multipliers iiirc). However, as Jamurai stated, it still exists and will likely be a part of our game.

 

[Lavani]

So, do you think eventually people will learn to understand autolinks and SDI out?

Spoiler: my answer

Personally, I think that because the autolinks are well done, it's too difficult to SDI out in most cases even with perfect understanding. For instance, I know Mega/MK falling BAir 1&2 will autolink angle you downwards, but even if I SDI down with it, I probably won't get enough to avoid the subsequent hits. (Also, most multi-hits have .3x SDI multipliers iiirc). However, as Jamurai stated, it still exists and will likely be a part of our game.

Like you said, many autolinks are tight enough (i.e. Sheik uair) that you aren't getting out regardless. For the ones that aren't, there's a good chance someone already understands it. But even if you can't escape an attack, SDIing around inside something like Mario dair or Mewtwo nair to force the aggressor into a 50/50 as to which side you'll be launched from could make followups less reliable.

Autolinks aren't where I expect SDI to develop in the meta though - using SDI to escape combo situations (Ryu stuff, MK uairs, Sheik fairs, Aura Sphere Charge shenanigans, etc) is what I'd like to see explored. Two part weak-hit-strong-hit attacks like ZSS fsmash and Fox uair might be exploitable too, but that requires that you can both react and mash in time.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Like you said, many autolinks are tight enough (i.e. Sheik uair) that you aren't getting out regardless. For the ones that aren't, there's a good chance someone already understands it. But even if you can't escape an attack, SDIing around inside something like Mario dair or Mewtwo nair to force the aggressor into a 50/50 as to which side you'll be launched from could make followups less reliable.

Autolinks aren't where I expect SDI to develop in the meta though - using SDI to escape combo situations (Ryu stuff, MK uairs, Sheik fairs, Aura Sphere Charge shenanigans, etc) is what I'd like to see explored. Two part weak-hit-strong-hit attacks like ZSS fsmash and Fox uair might be exploitable too, but that requires that you can both react and mash in time.

Honestly SDI is only going to escape multiple Ryu Utilts (i.e. the fastfaller lock.) as I don't think it's reasonable enough to do it from a raw Utilt punish/hit outside of SUPER good reactions. I can def see it making Ryu not able to crap on fastfallers in THAT WAY (he still does overall though).

This also depends on if people integrate it. We'll have to see!

 

[Ffamran]

Random observation of the day: Roy's Dair has 28 frames of landing lag; the same as Ganondorf's. Roy's Dair has the same auto-cancel windows as Marth's before frame 3 and after 55, but it's 7 frames slower on startup to Marth's frame 9, lasts 3 frames less to Marth's 9-13, 5 active frames, has 4 more frames of landing lag to Marth's 24, the sour-spot is 1% or 3% weaker than than the non-spike hitboxes on Marth, and the hitbox is arguably worse since it's just straight down instead of an arc which could have let Roy cover below him in some way. The pros? Roy's sweet-spot and spike hit does 1% more than Marth's and it recovers 12 frames faster. Yeah...

Marth's not a fair comparison considering the hitbox, so let's go to Ike whose Dair is pretty much the same hit-wise. Ike's has the same hit frame, same active frames, and the same 15% sweet-spot. The difference? Ike's does 15% no matter what since he doesn't have a sweet-spot/sour-spot for damage on his Dair, the growth on the regular hit is 10 more to Roy's 90 - not much of a big deal, but it's there -, takes just 3 more frames to recover, but has 5 less frames of landing lag, and auto-cancels before 5 and after 48. I have no evidence for this, but I'm going to assume that Ike's Dair also has more range even if it's slightly, so something like maybe Marth's vs. Lucina's.

If we go purely by landing lag for the frame 16 Dair users, it's, in order of descending, Ganondorf and Roy at 28, Yoshi at 24, Falco and Ike at 23, and Captain Falcon at 21. We can argue if Captain Falcon's Dair is a bit silly - platform don't exist for him -, but that's another story. So, what we can observe not compare is that Roy's Dair has the worse landing lag and the worse auto-cancel windows. Closest to Roy's auto-cancel windows is Yoshi's before 14 and after 50. The after's just 5 frames shy of Roy's, but the before is pretty much phenomenal compared to Roy's; everyone else auto-cancels before 4 or 5 in Ike's case and after ~40: Ganondorf's after is 32, Falco's after is 38, Captain Falcon's after is 39, and Ike's is noted above at after 48. Each other Dair has merit or something "defining": Ganondorf's is just stupidly strong and cannot be teched on ground while having a good auto-cancel window, Captain Falcon's coupled with his speed, maybe a bit too generous hitbox if he uses it while landing, and his infamous speed probably makes his the most reliable while pretty safe considering the 21 frames of landing lag, Falco and Yoshi's have high active frames with differences being that Falco's cannot be teched on the ground, has the most active frames for spiking, 4 to the Capt. and Ganondorf's 3 and Ike and Roy's 2, and his high jump means he doesn't really have to worry if he decides it's a "great" idea to use Dair on-stage... Dair out of hop on the other hand... Anyway, Yoshi's isn't a spike, but can semi-spike because auto-link angle shenanigans and it does a lot of damage if you manage to connect all the hits and with the way shields were changed in 1.1.0, sort of frightening if he hits your shield, and Ike's due to the way he and his moves works, can manage to use his from footstool setups and just compared to Roy's, it's kind of better in all ways outside of Roy having better ground speed and air speed (and air mobility?) to make use of his Dair, but Roy's got much higher landing lag, worse auto-cancels, a weaker sour-spot, and shorter range? that just goes against all the good Roy's got to make his Dair work.

So, we end with this question from this observation: is Roy's Dair under-tuned?

 

[Amadeus9]

Zero didn't di shuttle loop away, he specifically told Sect that he quarter circle di'd the last hit after sdi'ing the first hit down.

Which tbh im not sure what that means. I've heard about quarter circle di before but has anyone really labbed it?

 

[Mili]

Zero didn't di shuttle loop away, he specifically told Sect that he quarter circle di'd the last hit after sdi'ing the first hit down.

Which tbh im not sure what that means. I've heard about quarter circle di before but has anyone really labbed it?

That's the same SDI that the Ike used against 9B's Ryu. It pushes you out and down and is VERY effective. It makes Ryu's best confirm (U-Tilt) less reliable.

 

[Smog Frog]

isnt jab basically the same as utilt for confirming into kills at fiddy purposes?

 

[Blobface]

isnt jab basically the same as utilt for confirming into kills at fiddy purposes?

I don't think the 2.5 SDI is as important for escaping kill confirms (more because, as TTTTTsd said you'll very rarely have enough time to react) as it is for escaping U-tilt chaining, particularly for fastfallers.

 

[Vipermoon]

So, we end with this question from this observation: is Roy's Dair under-tuned?

I've always thought Roy's Dair was undertuned. Anything with Marth's Smash 4 autocancel windows is undertuned lol. Roy can't even full hop autocancel Dair or even jump before he lands like Marth can. And for some reason when Marth got his landing lag buff on Dair, Roy did not receive the same.

It is easier to spike with than Marth's in my opinion since with Marth, the other frames' hitboxes like to interrupt. Marth's spike is only frame 11, frame 10 or 12 get in the way sometimes. Roy's spike has 2 active frames which is still pretty meh. It's pretty powerful though because it doesn't spike grounded opponents, so it will kill vertically sooner than Ike can. Ike's will spike grounded opponents so despite having 10 more base and growth knockback, it's probably weaker in that regard.

Edit: I was actually hoping Roy would have gotten his Melee Dair (even if they had to add a little more startup) since that animation is awesome and Marth lost his during Smash 4 development "balancing"

A lot of multihits use autolinks that require you to have an understanding of where the attack's going to send you in order to successfully SDI out. Taking the custom Twisting Fox as an example, it can be SDI'd out of, but you need to mash hard in the direction the first hit launches you to get out of range before the second hit can suck you back in.not even going to bother posting my gif of it, you can barely tell what's going on with all the camera shaking

Right. And while I can SDI out of any multihit Jab with Marth, the one character's Jab that I can't SDI out of is Duck Hunt's. Can anyone help me with this issue? Usually I SDI above and away.

 

[Megamang]

For me, its pit. Pits rapid jab holds me in for so much longer than i feel it should. Its like i get to the edge and get stuck on it for some reason.

 

[MrTeddyBear]

Zero didn't di shuttle loop away, he specifically told Sect that he quarter circle di'd the last hit after sdi'ing the first hit down.

Which tbh im not sure what that means. I've heard about quarter circle di before but has anyone really labbed it?

It's a form of SDI where basically you rotate your stick in a quarter (1/4) circle motion away from your opponent. I use it all the time and it's really efffective because instead of counting as one input at a time like regular SDI would (assuming you're just holding/tapping the stick away) it counts as three inputs at a time for each quarter circle motion, and if you do it properly and rapidly rotate it back and forth it would give many inputs of SDI, making if really effective. You should be able to get out of most multi-jabs effortlessly with quarter circle SDI.

 

[Lavani]

Right. And while I can SDI out of any multihit Jab with Marth, the one character's Jab that I can't SDI out of is Duck Hunt's. Can anyone help me with this issue? Usually I SDI above and away.

I'd really like to see the hitboxes on Duck Hunt's rapid jab (MasterCore just displays a subroutine), it has some funky angles that make it hard to escape. I don't think it's autolink though, against a training dummy I can see characters close to him sometimes get poked up and out. It looks like it has hitboxes further from him that suck you down and back in though.

For me, its pit. Pits rapid jab holds me in for so much longer than i feel it should. Its like i get to the edge and get stuck on it for some reason.

SDI up and jump out, the further hitboxes on it hit you toward Pit.

 

[ligersandtigons]

I'd really like to see the hitboxes on Duck Hunt's rapid jab (MasterCore just displays a subroutine), it has some funky angles that make it hard to escape. I don't think it's autolink though, against a training dummy I can see characters close to him sometimes get poked up and out. It looks like it has hitboxes further from him that suck you down and back in though.


SDI up and jump out, the further hitboxes on it hit you toward Pit.

i play with tap jump on and sometimes sdiing up makes me lose my jump when playing online

is it cuz of the lag or do i have to turn tap jump off?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Probably because you're getting caught mid-jump as you're trying to SDI out. It's happened to me before when I've played with Tap Jump on.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Mili]

isnt jab basically the same as utilt for confirming into kills at fiddy purposes?

Jab 1, light D-tilt and D-air (only below 100%) all true confirm into TSRK with U-tilt.

U-tilt is just the most consistent form. I prefer D-tilt because it hits characters such as Pikachu which U-tilt struggles to do. Oh, and, N-air confirms into D-tilt and TSRK off of a missed tech :D

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I actually feel like most meteor dairs are pretty undertuned in this game; as a move class, they tend to be slow and weak, and it seems rare even if I get hit off-stage by one for it to actually end my stock. Roy's is one of the worse ones, but I don't think you get much sadder than poor King Dedede's dair. I really just don't get that move...

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, D3's dair is pretty bad. I don't know what the hell is up with that hitbox sometimes. Seems like you gotta hit dead center as the hammer's cast down at his opponent. Not to mention, it's pretty slowwwwwww.

...and it's still better than Jet Hammer. :v

Still, I manage to land it every so often and to great effect. My face mirrors his Smash 4 render when it does.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Routa]

Wario's Dair spikes when it trades with foes attack if I remember correctly.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Hm. I thought that when it was discovered people thought it was too hard to consistently pull off. Is it a big deal now?

No one's gotten around to using it regularly, but the fact it exists means it can be incorporated.

At the very least it creates a four-pronged RPS between it, tomahawk landings, Levin Bair, and Nosferatu to beat the shield answer. It's not the best of options, but the reward's as equally profound.

 

[TriTails]

Meteors are weak probably because of the absence of meteor cancelling. And it does seem a fair number of characters do better when recovering horizontally than vertically.

Some meteors are very generous in their hitboxes, like Falcon's and Ganon's (Especially the latter. The spike hitbox stretches up a bit). Some meteors are quick for their type, and have enough knockback to usually do the job ((D)Pit' and Luigi's), but the most common trait is laggy and/or have a lot of landing lag. Thing is, some laggy meteors aren't packed with enough hitbox generosity to compensate...

Speaking of meteors, why the **** does Falcon's D-air sourspot kill at 80% offstage again? 14% with 40 base and 100 growth. That's waaaay overtuned bruh.

(But then again I'm talking about Jank the Character so oh well. At least it's hillarious to imagine people's face when they realize Falcon's hiding a fiery pole behind his elbow .)

 

[Gawain]

I've always thought Roy's Dair was undertuned. Anything with Marth's Smash 4 autocancel windows is undertuned lol. Roy can't even full hop autocancel Dair or even jump before he lands like Marth can. And for some reason when Marth got his landing lag buff on Dair, Roy did not receive the same.

It is easier to spike with than Marth's in my opinion since with Marth, the other frames' hitboxes like to interrupt. Marth's spike is only frame 11, frame 10 or 12 get in the way sometimes. Roy's spike has 2 active frames which is still pretty meh. It's pretty powerful though because it doesn't spike grounded opponents, so it will kill vertically sooner than Ike can. Ike's will spike grounded opponents so despite having 10 more base and growth knockback, it's probably weaker in that regard.

Edit: I was actually hoping Roy would have gotten his Melee Dair (even if they had to add a little more startup) since that animation is awesome and Marth lost his during Smash 4 development "balancing"



Right. And while I can SDI out of any multihit Jab with Marth, the one character's Jab that I can't SDI out of is Duck Hunt's. Can anyone help me with this issue? Usually I SDI above and away.

Roy not being able to autocancel his moves from shorthop is very clearly part of his overall design though. There is a reason he has low landing lag on 3 of them. Many of his moves are very safe, as long as you don't whiff them. That's the intended design, he's not supposed to throw out random aerial hitboxes quickly like Diddy or Mario (ie bair etc). He's meant to hit something, shield or hurtbox whatever, and then land. So I'm always puzzled by the whole Roy and autocancel discussion, it's not really relevant to him. They're just not really a massively important part of his strategy.

Now as for his dair; it's basically completely useless. I'm not even sure what the intended design was. Literally all it's useful for is resetting or getting a free pop-up after a footstool. There is just about no other situation in which it has any use. Maybe they couldn't think of something and just threw it together at the end. Though, a lot of dairs in this game are like that to be honest.

Edit TriTails here's the way I justify Falcons range on his Fsmash: he thrusts his elbow forward with so much speed that the friction on the air and the sudden increase in pressure is what causes the fiery damage that extends beyond his physical reach.

 

[TriTails]

Things I've noticed about FE characters:
"Mr. Sakurai. Marth and Ike have disjointed F-airs and B-airs, as well as a counter!"
"Freaking what? Uhhhh, let's screw up their D-airs"

"Mr. Sakurai. Roy has disjointed F-airs and B-airs, great for noobs who can't space, as well as a counter!"
"Wut? Uhhhh, let's screw up his D-air even more"

Now that I think about it. A lot of counter characters have bad D-air meteor, or even no aerials that meteors at all. And basically half of the recoveries have a hitbox.

*Respect to balancing team just went up by 1*

 

[Mr. Johan]

At the very least they could have made their D-airs have powerful sourspots.

Robin's Levin Dair has a precise spikebox, but the sourspot off the sides is so strong it can KO offstage at 80 and effectively gimp earlier than that. I.e. If Robin hits Tink with sourspot Dair at 45% and Tink's used his second jump, that's the stock. It's practically not even a "sourspot", just another hit.

I wouldn't mind Ike or Roy having strong, semispiking sourspots in that regard.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think a large reason Dair meteors were toned down on some characters is largely due in part to the lack of Meteor Cancelling. Outside of 64, this is the only other Smash game to not let you Meteor Cancel when you'e hit by a meteor smash, so I guess they adjusted based on that in some instances. I can only guess, but it seems like the most logical conclusion as to why they're worse. Although in cases like Marth I think it's a combination of the new animation + system mechanics not allowing him to hit with it as often as he used to be able to.

Meteors tend to feel harder to land offstage in this game compared to other entries I agree, but they seem to have jacked up reward in some senses due to the lack of meteor cancelling. You won't be seeing people die at 40% to a meteor unless it's strong, but at like 60-70% a lot of this game's meteors become an absolute death sentence, so I suppose they adjusted based on that FOR THE MOST PART. They left stuff like Ganon's being crazy strong (albeit weaker than its ever been) for very obvious reasons.

 

[outfoxd]

Stomping on a dead horse but meteors are another place where DH got screwed. His dair has pitiful KB and has so much lag landing it onstage leads to you getting punished. I wish it had Falcon level power at least, so people can build a reliable offstage threat out of it.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Doesn't DH Dair autocancel out of a SH though? It has some use as a spotdodge punisher in that regard.

 

[outfoxd]

Doesn't DH Dair autocancel out of a SH though? It has some use as a spotdodge punisher in that regard.

Yeah, savinh grace of it. I been using it to crossup and pressure shields in tandem with can. I just wish i could use it as a stock ender.

 

[meleebrawler]

I think a large reason Dair meteors were toned down on some characters is largely due in part to the lack of Meteor Cancelling. Outside of 64, this is the only other Smash game to not let you Meteor Cancel when you'e hit by a meteor smash, so I guess they adjusted based on that in some instances. I can only guess, but it seems like the most logical conclusion as to why they're worse. Although in cases like Marth I think it's a combination of the new animation + system mechanics not allowing him to hit with it as often as he used to be able to.

Meteors tend to feel harder to land offstage in this game compared to other entries I agree, but they seem to have jacked up reward in some senses due to the lack of meteor cancelling. You won't be seeing people die at 40% to a meteor unless it's strong, but at like 60-70% a lot of this game's meteors become an absolute death sentence, so I suppose they adjusted based on that FOR THE MOST PART. They left stuff like Ganon's being crazy strong (albeit weaker than its ever been) for very obvious reasons.

You know meteors are more lethal in general when even Zelda's weak dair can be lethal. And another likely reason for the riskiness of meteors is likely the huge hitstun that results from failing the tech.

Actually, aside from 64 and it's ridiculous blockstun, I can't think of a lot of dairs that are actually very good in neutral throughout the series, and the few that are tend to be benefitted by the traits of the character using them, like Peach's floating, Meta Knight's multi-jumps or being really safe on a fastfaller (not to mention 64 and Melee's L-cancelling).

The only real standout dairs in my mind are /'s and 's.

And I think it's kind of hilarious how Mewtwo kicks his opponents upwards when he sourspots his.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

If we are talking about d-air meteors, I think the best ones go to .

Kirby's meteor is small but it true combos into footstool unless they're a mega-floaty, all hits link to the last hit (meteor) also, which means he technically has a meteor with about 18 active frames. This can kill at 0% if you're low enough and demolishes no hitbox recoveries.

Falcon's kills early, has little recovery, and can be landed after an air dodge bait. The sourspot also kills stupidly early as well, and the hitbox is pretty big.

Ryu's is obvious. Strong spike with combos into it.

Some other good ones I would think ( could be wrong) are good are and simply for the strength and the area they cover, and edit: IS PALUTENA'S DAIR GOOD

 

[Antonykun]

so we just had a discussion on d-airs and meteors without mentioning Villager once?
well that sucks

 

[wedl!!]

It's common in the United States to forget Villager exists because he isn't a rushdown/speedster character or Rosalina

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

so we just had a discussion on d-airs and meteors without mentioning Villager once?
well that sucks

Well Villager's is all RNG. You can get the most amazing combo into spike and it ends up being a 1 turnip. Not really reliable...

 

[Antonykun]

Well Villager's is all RNG. You can get the most amazing combo into spike and it ends up being a 1 turnip. Not really reliable...

even hitting them with one turnip is huge because it knocks them offstage against the best edguarder in the game